4

votes

Such a thing as safe grains?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created January 16, 2012 at 9:21 PM

Are organic sourdough rye and organic sprouted corn tortillas absolutely off limits?On a diet that consists of mainly grassfed meats,organic fruits,veggies,fermented veggies?

7d01d86c539003eed77cf901bf037412

(1076)

on January 17, 2012
at 06:58 PM

What people call "sourdough" covers many sins. First, commercial bakeries may well use yeast as well as culture, and just add lactic acid to provide a sour taste. Second, sourdough cultures vary a great deal -- they are a mix of different bacteria and fungi and my culture is probably different to your culture. Note that Sara's paper refers to _selected_ bacterial and fungal cultures. I find it perfectly plausible that out of two cultures that leaven well, one starter might contain microbes that break down gluten while the other does not.

1096aa84d006fe967128ffbd37e8070e

(1002)

on January 17, 2012
at 04:00 AM

Nance, you are so awesome. I love that you are finding out for yourself what works for your body. Impressive and inspiring, you are!

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on January 17, 2012
at 12:50 AM

@Just Mike, my bread didn't rise in the final session so it was supposed to be nearly gluten free. Made no difference, as one slice did a job on me. Too bad, too, that was wonderful tasting bread.

23f79c5241be763ac583fc68d58ee02c

(250)

on January 16, 2012
at 11:28 PM

If it is gluten that does you in then the answer would be simple, if the bread holds together it still has lots of gluten. Now if you took wheat and fermented it until the gluten gave out 100% and made pancakes with it. Maybe...I'd try it but I'm gluten sensitive, not celiac.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on January 16, 2012
at 11:03 PM

@Beth, absolutely! I sure wish I could eat the slow-rise sourdough. When I'm done with my weight loss phase, I still plan to try slow-rise buckwheat bread and sprouted home-made Essene bread with plenty of time in between. My next project, though, will probably be kimchi.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on January 16, 2012
at 11:00 PM

@Sara S, Nance sure did! A one-week careful (traditional) process with a horrible outcome. All you can do is test, frankie; you either can or you can't.

Medium avatar

(2923)

on January 16, 2012
at 10:50 PM

... or the opioids ...

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7 Answers

10
7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on January 16, 2012
at 10:57 PM

I totally understand the reasons that paleo (TM) considers all grains as verboten. There's the "we didn't eat these before agriculture and haven't adapted" argument, along with the "anti-nutrients in grains like lectins and phytic acid are bad for us" argument.

But me personally, I find the Weston A Price "cultures eating traditionally prepared grains are healthy" argument plausible if not compelling. If you want the paleo take of this argument, see Mark Sisson:

Humans figured out a way to preserve the toxic food, make it palatable, drastically reduce its antinutrient content, and make it more digestible, thanks to the big efficient brain inside our skulls. ...

That said, will I start soaking, sprouting, and fermenting big batches of grains in my kitchen? No. It???s way too much work and it???s unclear whether the toxins are fully mitigated (and in the case of wheat, they almost certainly are not). I???ll admit that crusty sourdough bread can be a nice occasional treat when eating out, but it???s not something I???m interested in eating on a regular basis.

Ultimately "safe" is a loaded word. You want to be uber-cautious? Avoid grains. But if you want to eat a favorite grain-based food everyone once in a while, try and go the traditional route and eat something fermented, sprouted, or soaked.

Or you can be like those of us who periodically recognize that it's not all about optimizing yourself as an organism. Don't eat grain if it causes your gut to spasm. But if it doesn't, keep in mind you're doing this for the long-term and do what will make that work for you.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on January 16, 2012
at 11:03 PM

@Beth, absolutely! I sure wish I could eat the slow-rise sourdough. When I'm done with my weight loss phase, I still plan to try slow-rise buckwheat bread and sprouted home-made Essene bread with plenty of time in between. My next project, though, will probably be kimchi.

8
Medium avatar

(2923)

on January 16, 2012
at 09:44 PM

Ruminants have evolved ways to digest grains and grasses, we haven't (this is also why grass-fed cattle are healthier and healthier for us). The best way for us is to allow the animals to do the work for us (pastured animals) or let the bacteria work for us (fermented and probiotic). That being said, Perfect Health Diet does allow limited quantities of white rice (NOT brown rice) and fresh sprouts (the one period when most grains turn off their protective toxins).

3
9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on January 17, 2012
at 05:23 AM

There is no such thing as a safe anything. Can anyone think of a food that's no potentially toxic? I can't. Antinutrients in grains are also present in many vegetables, for example. Even meat can contain things such as environmental pollutants. But as Paracelsus said "the dose makes the poison." I think humans evolved to eat and perhaps even thrive off of certain amounts of toxins. And some humans more than others. Hemochromatosis possibly is an extreme example of recent selection towards dealing with antinutrients and people with it may do worse without antinutrients in their diet. There is evidence for small amounts of grain consumption in the Paleolithic.

It's pretty important to figure out where on the distribution you fall. Self-experimentation, getting screened for celiac if you have symptoms, and possibly getting a genetic test can help determine your optimum. For me it was really worth it because it turned out that my grain sensitivity was caused by fibers that are in many "paleo" vegetables as well. Now that I know what to avoid, I feel much better.

2
B6114a1980b1481fb18206064f3f4a4f

(3924)

on January 17, 2012
at 03:19 AM

Mark Sisson and some of the other Paleo writers advocate an 80/20 rule where you aim for eating Paleo 100% of the time, but if you reach at least 80% Paleo you are doing well and increasing your health. I do not eat grains anymore myself because of previous issues with insulin resistance, but I keep a loaf of sliced, sprouted grain bread in the freezer (double-bagged to keep it fresh) and every once in awhile I pull it out and let my twin three-year-olds have toast with their eggs. They love it and would rather have this than any dessert. They also seem to tolerate it very well--so they get to have their occasional treat. I suggest you go grain-free for at least a month, then give it a try and see how you react. If you tolerate it well, then an occasional sprouted or fermented grain treat would probably be okay for you part of your 20%.

1
7841848bd0c27c64353c583fb7971242

(7275)

on January 16, 2012
at 10:20 PM

Sourdough may make normally glutenous grains not glutenous: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20975578. As a sensitive celiac, I would need to see further testing before doing it myself. PH user Nance did an experiment on herself with well-fermented sourdough and had a reaction. And of course, this is only the gluten aspect of grains, not even addressing the phytate and lectin issues.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on January 16, 2012
at 11:00 PM

@Sara S, Nance sure did! A one-week careful (traditional) process with a horrible outcome. All you can do is test, frankie; you either can or you can't.

Medium avatar

(2923)

on January 16, 2012
at 10:50 PM

... or the opioids ...

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on January 17, 2012
at 12:50 AM

@Just Mike, my bread didn't rise in the final session so it was supposed to be nearly gluten free. Made no difference, as one slice did a job on me. Too bad, too, that was wonderful tasting bread.

1096aa84d006fe967128ffbd37e8070e

(1002)

on January 17, 2012
at 04:00 AM

Nance, you are so awesome. I love that you are finding out for yourself what works for your body. Impressive and inspiring, you are!

23f79c5241be763ac583fc68d58ee02c

(250)

on January 16, 2012
at 11:28 PM

If it is gluten that does you in then the answer would be simple, if the bread holds together it still has lots of gluten. Now if you took wheat and fermented it until the gluten gave out 100% and made pancakes with it. Maybe...I'd try it but I'm gluten sensitive, not celiac.

7d01d86c539003eed77cf901bf037412

(1076)

on January 17, 2012
at 06:58 PM

What people call "sourdough" covers many sins. First, commercial bakeries may well use yeast as well as culture, and just add lactic acid to provide a sour taste. Second, sourdough cultures vary a great deal -- they are a mix of different bacteria and fungi and my culture is probably different to your culture. Note that Sara's paper refers to _selected_ bacterial and fungal cultures. I find it perfectly plausible that out of two cultures that leaven well, one starter might contain microbes that break down gluten while the other does not.

0
Aa1f07e23a47aed0d07b712645e0d213

(313)

on January 17, 2012
at 04:24 AM

I apologize in advance as I have already just used this answer for a similar question: but I don't understand why I would need to change my answer to for trivial reasons if it is a good answer that is worth sharing and applicable. LOL I sound dumb for doing this but it could help you out:

Grains, legumes, and nuts contain trypsin inhibitors that irreversibly alter and destroy enzymes for digesting trypsin and protease and this can certainly cause cancer and has in studies with animals. These caused chronic atrophy in their pancreas and permanent complexes with the way trypsin and proteases were digested. I got to find the many studies I read as I spent a significant amount of time reading many a while ago. But it took serious time to find the right ones. Cooking deactivates less than half of the trypsin inhibitors for most cooking methods: and cooking them more will render the food almost inedible. Also I have read that it is better to kill cells than to alter them significantly, in regards to the trypsin inhibitors and many other substances, because this creates and spreads chemical messages that cause cancer and many other problems. But besides trypsin inhibitors there are many other natural toxins that come with grains: grains aren't really meant to be food and need to be seriously processed to become edible: soaking, cooking, etc. You have to look at food from a standpoint of growing up without the luxury of finding food in a store, processed, or the comfort of a hospital if you eat the wrong food. Looking at nuts, legumes, and grains (as well as many other plants) you would either take a taste and really feel how your body thinks of these foods, instead of the way most of us taste them now in the current situation, and would want to avoid many commonly accepted foods and you would also not even eat many plants/grains/etc. that you come in contact with based on sight, smell, and texture alone.

I also look at carbs like this: it seems nature makes a point when most of the only significant sources of carbs are vegetables which need to be thoroughly cooked, grains, or legumes and it might be something to consider but I also understand that that logic is also flawed and of course I understand this without needing to see how reality is. In reality: many things we need or would really benefit from of course are hard to find and nature does not make it easy for us and why should it LOL.

But those are some things to consider: think if you were living in the wild and in this hypothetical situation you are without the need to load up or eat whatever desperately and mostly indiscriminately because you are not sure if you will have access for food tomorrow: what would you eat and how much would you eat? Even today when they say, " you can eat large amounts of this vegetable and it's fine"; even the most common ones, they are finding so many new things each day for common foods and telling people to not eat a certain amount of them. It is wise to eat a significant amount of vegetables because of the nutrients they contain: just remember to study what you eat and look up the food with the word "tox", "bad for you", etc. to find more about it. Also remember that nothing is ever certain and food isn't perfect for us: it is what is in it. But good luck to you and it takes time for many to understand this as it is hard.

0
B4e1fa6a8cf43d2b69d97a99dfca262c

(10255)

on January 16, 2012
at 10:13 PM

i tried sprouted corn tortillas and they made my stomache hurt; so for some of us the answer is no.

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