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Paleo and Neededing Glycogen to build muscle

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created October 11, 2012 at 1:26 PM

Since starting paleo I have had great results. Feel good look amazing (lost a lot of body fat) and just my over all health is good. However being that it is hard to get a lot of carbs on paleo I have noticed I've lost a lot of strength and weight believing. I believe that this is muscle do to that I was already relatively lean before starting paleo.

I have been reading that to truly BUILD muscle you need excess calories and a alot of carbs so your muscle are not glycogen depleted because if they are your lifts will extremely suffer. I believe this is the case for me. I mean my muscle bun out early when I lift now unlike before I try to eat sweet potatoes but I feel like its not enough.

What are yalls thoughts on what I should do? And how do you feel about lifting weights and muscle glycogen

5b8cf203186c3cb7810f5046e0532be8

(166)

on October 12, 2012
at 11:44 AM

@ Dan W: I take one spoon of flax seed oil every meal. It is about 15 grams of oil per meal (3 times) of which is about 8 grams omega-3 and 2 grams omega-6, so 6 grams of omega-3 per meal. Additionally I have these omega-3 enriched eggs about 4 a day, 1 gram a piece. I put it in the cassein shake as well, it tastes delicious :). I use this amount so it almost removed 95% of acne, when I forgot a day of fish oil I slowly start to have spots again. I am doing this for about 4 months and I can have longer periods without omega-3 before spots appear now, so it seams omega-3 builds up in the tissue

5b8cf203186c3cb7810f5046e0532be8

(166)

on October 12, 2012
at 11:35 AM

@ John, no I eat whatever I prefer. Meat and veggies baked in butter. I take one 40 grams casseïn shake per day. I have no idea of kcal intake. If I stop training, my protein intake drops to about 100-140 grams per day. If I didn't eat enough protein one one day, I am hungry for protein the next. This repeats every time, when I stop training the intake drops to 100-140 grams, when I start it raises to about 180-200 grams / day. When I eat to much the demands drops the next day, and when I don't eat enough it raises the next day.

B72e976b2df9e7f01315830062a5209c

(1365)

on October 11, 2012
at 08:19 PM

I don't count anything, and I've had much better success since I moved away from obsessing about protein (i.e. shakes and whey). I generally have 2 or 3 chicken thighs and 2 small/medium bananas post workout, then a heaping plate of veggies and eggs cooked in tallow for lunch, and then a lowish-carb dinner, usually steak and eggs or something. On non-workout days I fast until lunch, and have similar meals for lunch and dinner. I still get the Leangains ideals in with more carbs and calories PWO and some fasting in, but without the extreme swings back and forth between lo and hi carb.

Medium avatar

(2338)

on October 11, 2012
at 07:31 PM

anti-catabolic = anabolic

2c2349bc7af0fedb59a5fe99dac9fae2

(2707)

on October 11, 2012
at 07:03 PM

Other reasons besides glycogen to up your carb intake. The main being the insulin response (although you can do with this with protein as well (eggs and milk are very insulinogenic). Insulin is extremely anti-catabolic, which can, especially post workout, can help to stop protein breakdown and initiate protein synthesis.

194d8e8140425057fe06202e1e5822a7

(3979)

on October 11, 2012
at 02:15 PM

20 grams+ a day of omega 3s, or 20 grams+ of fish oil? Jesus, that's a lot, whatever it is. How do you take it without getting all oily-skinned or nauseous?

C31068ae53e21b4c9cce4e409ad08893

(10)

on October 11, 2012
at 02:01 PM

I'm gonna ask you the same question I asked te guy above. Did you count calories or just eat meats till your protein needs were filled then ate fats and other fruits and veggies till you were full?

C31068ae53e21b4c9cce4e409ad08893

(10)

on October 11, 2012
at 02:00 PM

Did you count calories or just the protein and eat fats and other veggies till you were full?

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7 Answers

1
Medium avatar

(2338)

on October 11, 2012
at 07:43 PM

a lot of people here play the you don't need carbs to build muscle card and to an extent they're right. however, it is much more difficult and way less effective. if you are going to put the effort in to train to gain muscle you're doing yourself a disservice if you don't eat carbs. if you want to most optimally build muscle mass carbs are necessary. the research supports this. if you are intelligent about your nutrient intake/timing and your training, you won't gain fat from eating carbs. i beat my head against the low carb/heavy training wall for way too long. now i eat carbs whenever i feel like it and i've started doing 1/2 gomad and have seen no noticeable fat gains and a tremendous increase in recovery, my lifts have gone up dramatically and my muscles have gotten bigger. there is a time and a place for low carb but it's absolutely not when you are trying to gain muscle.

1
3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on October 11, 2012
at 05:05 PM

Yes its easier to build muscle if you simultaneously do not care how much fat you gain. Thats why bodybuilders do bulks then cuts. I however am not a bodybuilder and only look for clean gains.

I do a HIT resistance protocol. I'm done in 20 minutes at high intensity. I likely don't even burn through 30g of muscle glycogen in this time. Even a person in ketosis for long periods has at least a couple hundred grams to spare. So you really don't need all that much to refill those stores now do you?

If your doing some sort of glycogen depleting protocol (high reps/lower weights for hours on end), then sure you may run into issues. Really its all a function of the sort of training you do and what your goals are.

0
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 11, 2012
at 08:25 PM

This is pretty thoroughly answered as is...

Just because I like hearing myself talk though - Look up CKDs on Bodybuilding forums. These guys are bulking on 1-2 carb re-feeds a WEEK while working out 5 days a week on body-part splits. You will grow better with some carbs but that doesn't mean the absolute amount is huge.

0
Ef777978cfeb8fbdd18d75c4f6c4cb23

on October 11, 2012
at 03:56 PM

It looks to me from some of your previous questions that you are already pretty lean, so...

it makes sense to focus on lifting heavy and then recovering. Doug McGuff has plenty on this as mentioned above, but lots of other Paleo bloggers including Martin at LeanGains have plenty to say on the subject.

If you are lean and you want to get stronger/bigger you are also going to have to eat more. If you want to incorporate more carbs then Leangains might suit you.

I lift only once per week. It suits me, I'm much older than you so take time to recover and I'm still making good progress. I am ravenous after lifting and I eat a variety of stuff, but I don't feel the need to go down the SAD route. Just more paleo.

Good luck

0
7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on October 11, 2012
at 01:58 PM

A muscle full of glycogen will certainly look bigger, and if you plan on working out for any length of time, you will likely need carbohydrates to fuel the workout. In one of the old AHS talks ( I think it might be this one- Doug McGuff, but I could be wrong) someone mentions that total glycogen stores in the body is around 270g, with 70g of that being in the liver. Glycogen depletion only happens in the muscles that are being worked, so you need much less than 200g, probably no more than 100g to replenish after a workout.
I stay in ketosis to control blood sugar, so I keep my workouts short.

0
B72e976b2df9e7f01315830062a5209c

(1365)

on October 11, 2012
at 01:56 PM

Excess carbs and calories can certainly make muscle gains easier, but they also make fat gain easier. I'm a fan of the Leangains protocol, although I use a modified version of Martin's approach.

The protocol suggests high-carb, low fat on lifting days with the bulk of the calories coming post workout. Low-carb, high fat on off days.

I prefer a more daily, balanced approach, so I do moderate carbs and fat, but get in all my carbs post workout.

All that aside, Protein is probably the most important thing... you should be making sure to get as much whole-food protein as keeps you sated.

C31068ae53e21b4c9cce4e409ad08893

(10)

on October 11, 2012
at 02:01 PM

I'm gonna ask you the same question I asked te guy above. Did you count calories or just eat meats till your protein needs were filled then ate fats and other fruits and veggies till you were full?

B72e976b2df9e7f01315830062a5209c

(1365)

on October 11, 2012
at 08:19 PM

I don't count anything, and I've had much better success since I moved away from obsessing about protein (i.e. shakes and whey). I generally have 2 or 3 chicken thighs and 2 small/medium bananas post workout, then a heaping plate of veggies and eggs cooked in tallow for lunch, and then a lowish-carb dinner, usually steak and eggs or something. On non-workout days I fast until lunch, and have similar meals for lunch and dinner. I still get the Leangains ideals in with more carbs and calories PWO and some fasting in, but without the extreme swings back and forth between lo and hi carb.

0
5b8cf203186c3cb7810f5046e0532be8

(166)

on October 11, 2012
at 01:42 PM

If you are keto adapted than you will restore your glycogen storage automatically. It will take some more time than a few hours probably. I experienced a power decrease on low-carb as wel, but that had to do with electrolyte disbalance and just plain dehydration.

I experience massive muscle growth on low-carb paleo. I use vitamin D (5000 IU/ daily off summer), magnesium (transdermal), omega-3 (20 grams+ a day), zinc (30 mg), and about 180 grams of protein (that is 2,4 gram /kg bodyweight). 3 times a week full body workout of 45 minutes.

edit: I use 5 grams of creatine aswell. I don't know how my progress will be if I add carbs pre or post training.

C31068ae53e21b4c9cce4e409ad08893

(10)

on October 11, 2012
at 02:00 PM

Did you count calories or just the protein and eat fats and other veggies till you were full?

194d8e8140425057fe06202e1e5822a7

(3979)

on October 11, 2012
at 02:15 PM

20 grams+ a day of omega 3s, or 20 grams+ of fish oil? Jesus, that's a lot, whatever it is. How do you take it without getting all oily-skinned or nauseous?

5b8cf203186c3cb7810f5046e0532be8

(166)

on October 12, 2012
at 11:35 AM

@ John, no I eat whatever I prefer. Meat and veggies baked in butter. I take one 40 grams casseïn shake per day. I have no idea of kcal intake. If I stop training, my protein intake drops to about 100-140 grams per day. If I didn't eat enough protein one one day, I am hungry for protein the next. This repeats every time, when I stop training the intake drops to 100-140 grams, when I start it raises to about 180-200 grams / day. When I eat to much the demands drops the next day, and when I don't eat enough it raises the next day.

5b8cf203186c3cb7810f5046e0532be8

(166)

on October 12, 2012
at 11:44 AM

@ Dan W: I take one spoon of flax seed oil every meal. It is about 15 grams of oil per meal (3 times) of which is about 8 grams omega-3 and 2 grams omega-6, so 6 grams of omega-3 per meal. Additionally I have these omega-3 enriched eggs about 4 a day, 1 gram a piece. I put it in the cassein shake as well, it tastes delicious :). I use this amount so it almost removed 95% of acne, when I forgot a day of fish oil I slowly start to have spots again. I am doing this for about 4 months and I can have longer periods without omega-3 before spots appear now, so it seams omega-3 builds up in the tissue

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