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How come if gluten and lectins affect everyone, why everyone doesn't have an autoimmune disease?

Commented on March 17, 2014
Created March 12, 2014 at 6:33 PM

I get that everything affects everyone differently, but how come my family that lives int he caribbean who eats rice and gluten have nice skin and seem really healthy, and some people in America eat lectins and gluten and seem super healthy but aren't their intestines being damaged by lectins...maybe not their villi like with celiacs, which is a further adaption. Have these people adapted to eat wheat and lectins whereas I haven't...or is celiacs the adaptation. I wish it were as simple as they have better gut flora, but there must be something they have that I don't.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19413)

on March 17, 2014
at 03:09 PM

If you're not sensitive to eggs, dairy, nightshades, you're fine. Don't worry about it. Soybean oil is harmful due to its trans fats (amongst other thing). In tiny amounts, no worries, but if you're going for mayo made from it, avoid it like the plague. I'd avoid corn anything due to the GMO BT-toxin factor, but if you can tolerate it and it's not something you eat daily as a staple, no harm done.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19413)

on March 17, 2014
at 03:07 PM

"Modern" medicine doesn't recognize the early stages of celiac disease until there is quite a lot of damage to the gut and they see it in a biopsy, otherwise they label you as "non-celiac gluten sensitive" which is meaningless as that's just the early stage. If you want to know for sure you can take a Cyrex labs which will check your immunoglobulins for most of the types of gluten reactivity. Since gluten signals zonulin and zonulin opens the gut causing it to be leaky, claiming it doesn't cause autoimmunity is irresponsible?

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19413)

on March 17, 2014
at 03:03 PM

You'd be risking autoimmune disease each time you eat any, and at minimum inflamation all the time.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19413)

on March 17, 2014
at 03:02 PM

Yes, my guess is everyone should avoid gluten grains (wheat, barley, rye), and it's likely a good idea to avoid other grains including corn, oats, etc. but excluding only white rice - even then rice is devoid of most nutrients, so use it if you like it and want a cheap source of glucose.

0ba891d22837788c4d5ccf3f33f60329

(30)

on March 14, 2014
at 06:39 PM

Wait, how do we determine that gluten sensitivity is asymptomatic?

Medium avatar

on March 14, 2014
at 06:00 PM

If your family has autoimmunity, I'd cut out gluten. There are no problems with other grains nor legumes, however. The food toxins in such grains are greatly exaggerated. Even gluten grains like barley and rye are much more benign than white flour. There are no problems with brown/white rice. The longest living people subsist on grains; they're sources of ready glucose. There's nothing wrong with them. The problem arises when you develop autoimmunity. Then, dairy, legumes and certain grains like brown rice may become problematic. Even those do not have any problem with white rice.

Medium avatar

(78)

on March 14, 2014
at 03:04 PM

@thyroiditis yay! You give me hope! I shall avoid gluten cause it's pretty bad I guess. But I'm sure people int he caribbean don't consume it as much as we do, so they probably aren't as harmed by it? We have to consume A LOT of something, like gluten for it to harm us unless we are allergic, right? Like have one slice of bread isn't going to open up my intestines...i'm not even sure how our intestines really do get opened...maybe by continuous gluten exposure day in and day out...withotu giving the body a rest or other nutrients?

Medium avatar

on March 14, 2014
at 03:53 AM

Creative, gluten is not the driver of autoimmunity except in Celiac Disease. Many people do not understand that. Now, once you are autoimmune, gluten will aggravate your symptoms by worsening intestinal permeability. However, gluten by itself is not a singular trigger of autoimmune diseases; it may work in tandem with other factors but is not the causative factor except in CD. Many Peleo folks who blindly follow food avoidance advocates think gluten is the causative factor; it isn't. Just like carbs do not cause diabetes, gluten does not by itself cause autoimmunity except in CD.

Medium avatar

on March 14, 2014
at 03:43 AM

Why cut out eggs or tomatoes when you have no symptoms? Don't listen to this Food Nazi. They'll overplay food sensitivity. I wouldn't worry about corn starch or soybean oil in condiments. If you have a family history of autoimmunity, I would try to avoid gluten. Once you're stricken with autoimmunity, avoid dairy, as it will ameliorate symptoms for most. But stop it right there; anything else must be vetted. Food is only one trigger; stress will aggravate symptoms. You'll not avoid a flare if you undersleep, overwork or when going through a rough patch.

Medium avatar

on March 14, 2014
at 03:28 AM

Creative, you're asking right questions. Paleo is just a term for a broad-based eating style. It's not very rigid. Just about everyone fits into its big tent, including ketosis eaters, Fuhrman-like 10-15% meat-limit vegetarians, pescatarians, food avoidance neurotics, etc. As far as lectins go, the case against it is crumbling; what we thought was a Neolithic agent of disease is turning out to be an important nutrient source. If you have no problems with legumes, you should not avoid it. It's not like gluten, whose effect is stealthy and insidious.

0f8f77156cd0667d43194fc4b8bc3b5d

on March 13, 2014
at 09:26 PM

Thanks for the links.

Medium avatar

(78)

on March 13, 2014
at 09:17 PM

I wish there was a way to know if one actually had sensitivities. I don't mind cutting out grains, but why should I gut out eggs or tomatoes just because they could potentially harm me...should I really worry about the corn starch or soybean oil in my honey mustard dressing? Should I worry that my gut is going to get holes punched in it from my salad dressing or from accidently consuming gluten?

Medium avatar

on March 13, 2014
at 05:59 PM

You don't know because it's supposed to be asympomatic. Supposedly, you can feel like a million bucks but gluten sensitivity could be simmering right underneath you.

Medium avatar

(78)

on March 13, 2014
at 03:08 PM

I agree! So why are we paleo in the first place! If lectins and such aren't so bad, what's the fuss? I fee; like everything is a hoax!

Medium avatar

(78)

on March 13, 2014
at 03:07 PM

Also, if gliadin is opening up our intestines everytime we eat it...then...I don't quite understand the biology of it. So eating gluten now and then is not harmful?

Medium avatar

(78)

on March 13, 2014
at 03:02 PM

I think this is a big part of it. My Vitamin D levels were 71 3 weeks ago and I ran out of Vit of D and it's been 3 weeks and think my D levels dropped a lot. I don't think any creature is supposed to go so long without Vitamin D unless hibernating

Medium avatar

(78)

on March 13, 2014
at 02:33 PM

I'm a little confused by if anyone should eat wheat or any grains at all...are you saying that it does damage, but many people don't notice it?

Medium avatar

(78)

on March 12, 2014
at 06:36 PM

I don't show any physical symptoms of gluten sensitivity or intolerance...'I just avoid grains and legumes cause paleo says so and cause everyone is saying they are so terrible. But if I have honey mustard with soybean oil in it...am I dammaging my intestinal lining?

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4 Answers

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0
96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19413)

on March 13, 2014
at 10:51 AM

It's like a lottery.

It's unlikely that this will ever happen and when it does, it's usually after many years of consuming wheat. This is why you could get away with half a life time of eating toast and eggs for breakfast, pasta for lunch and dinner and all of a sudden get very sick without warning and be in disbelief about the true cause.

When the autoimmune system sees a foreign amino acid, it picks a sequence to use for its antibodies. If that sequence is very short, such as in wheat, it's possible it will match the body's own sequences.

What's more common is that when gliadin signals zonulin and opens up the enterocytes, and the victim eats other foods, such as eggs, they can develop allergies to eggs (or other foods) because whole undigested egg proteins do not belong in the blood stream. This is another reason why people don't recognize the true culprit and avoid it. They just think they're allergic to eggs or dairy, or other foods.

Some of this gut permeability also depends on your gut flora and how well it functions. Eating the kinds of high carb foods provided by a Standard American Diet tends to shift it towards allowing more damage.

Luckily, after some time, the immunoglobulins for a particular allergy (or autoimmune disease) can go away when the offending protein doesn't show up for a long enough time. And not all immunoglobulins have an immediate response. More often than not, the response is delayed by many hours, so it's very hard to correlate what you had for breakfast with the reaction you got at night.

In a way, you could think of gliadin signalling zonulin as wheat's way of cheating the lottery. If the gut isn't permeable, it can't let gluten in and not much of consequence happens. but because it does, the other way to look at it is that it's the direct root cause for very many autoimmune diseases.

In addition to gliadin, there's also a cholera bacteria called Vibrio cholerae that can signal zonulin. see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zonulin

Zonulin can also open up the blood brain barrier allowing gliadin, gluten, or other large particles in the brain possibly causing things like brain fog, headaches, migranes, etc.

I remember reading somewhere that humans are the only species that uses zonulin to open up the enterocytes, and that this is used in fetuses to allow substances in through the umbilical cord, or perhaps through the mother's milk, but that it shouldn't be opened up after the child grows, but I can't find a reference for this at this time. (Of course, both plants, and bacteria can always signal this pathway and cause havoc.)

It has also been found that victims of septis have large amounts of detectable zonulin:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23457771

Here's some refs for the rest of the above.

Medium avatar

on March 14, 2014
at 03:53 AM

Creative, gluten is not the driver of autoimmunity except in Celiac Disease. Many people do not understand that. Now, once you are autoimmune, gluten will aggravate your symptoms by worsening intestinal permeability. However, gluten by itself is not a singular trigger of autoimmune diseases; it may work in tandem with other factors but is not the causative factor except in CD. Many Peleo folks who blindly follow food avoidance advocates think gluten is the causative factor; it isn't. Just like carbs do not cause diabetes, gluten does not by itself cause autoimmunity except in CD.

Medium avatar

(78)

on March 13, 2014
at 02:33 PM

I'm a little confused by if anyone should eat wheat or any grains at all...are you saying that it does damage, but many people don't notice it?

0f8f77156cd0667d43194fc4b8bc3b5d

on March 13, 2014
at 09:26 PM

Thanks for the links.

Medium avatar

(78)

on March 13, 2014
at 03:07 PM

Also, if gliadin is opening up our intestines everytime we eat it...then...I don't quite understand the biology of it. So eating gluten now and then is not harmful?

0
Medium avatar

on March 13, 2014
at 06:09 PM

Creative, very few people are Celiac but many are gluten sensitive. The exact proportion is open to debate but some guess about 1/3 of the population is gluten sensitive. That doesn't mean they have overt symptoms; if you have overt symptoms, then you're either Celiac or gluten hypersensitive. Plus you could be on your way to Celiacdom if you're gluten sensitive.

I don't buy everything the Paleo food police say. But the case against gluten is pretty strong, especially if you have autoimmune issues. So is the case against dairy but only if you're gluten-sensitive or have underlying autoimmune diseases.

So the short of it all: do pay attention to gluten, as it is deceptive and the actual process of becoming sensitive is stealthy and latent. But do not be led astray by non-existent food allergies, which is wildly in vogue in Paleoland, thanks to books like the AIP and Minding My Mitochondria. The latter book, unfortunately, is pseudoscientific gobbledygook parading as a cure for autoimmunity, which is really unfortunate. Food sensitivities are legit. They exist. However, they develop due to immune deficiency that you develop along the way when you become more and more rigid and adopt orthorexia. Gluten and dairy sensitivities are real. So are nightshade and egg white sensitivities. Beyond that, however, you need to thoroughly vet these so called food sensitivities because they might coincide with autoimmune flares or stress-induced phenomena. If you apply some rigor to the analysis, about 50% of the supposed allergies are psychosomatic and nonsensical. However, the other 50% is legit.

There are some people on this board who're applying food avoidance protocols to non-autoimmune situations. Some even think they can avoid gout if they follow "strict Paleo," believing that sugar is the immediate trigger of gout. That would be food avoidance ad retardum, truly horseass backwards for a protocol that does have some usefulness when applied correctly.

Medium avatar

(78)

on March 13, 2014
at 09:17 PM

I wish there was a way to know if one actually had sensitivities. I don't mind cutting out grains, but why should I gut out eggs or tomatoes just because they could potentially harm me...should I really worry about the corn starch or soybean oil in my honey mustard dressing? Should I worry that my gut is going to get holes punched in it from my salad dressing or from accidently consuming gluten?

Medium avatar

on March 14, 2014
at 03:43 AM

Why cut out eggs or tomatoes when you have no symptoms? Don't listen to this Food Nazi. They'll overplay food sensitivity. I wouldn't worry about corn starch or soybean oil in condiments. If you have a family history of autoimmunity, I would try to avoid gluten. Once you're stricken with autoimmunity, avoid dairy, as it will ameliorate symptoms for most. But stop it right there; anything else must be vetted. Food is only one trigger; stress will aggravate symptoms. You'll not avoid a flare if you undersleep, overwork or when going through a rough patch.

0
2699775773a7daff301619c167e11e8a

on March 13, 2014
at 02:52 PM

Your families' skin health may also be contributed to your geographical location and abundance of vitamin D exposure. Comparing that to other northern Americans may suggest the difference in being "really healthy" that you speak of.

Medium avatar

(78)

on March 13, 2014
at 03:02 PM

I think this is a big part of it. My Vitamin D levels were 71 3 weeks ago and I ran out of Vit of D and it's been 3 weeks and think my D levels dropped a lot. I don't think any creature is supposed to go so long without Vitamin D unless hibernating

0
32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on March 13, 2014
at 12:22 AM

Not everybody has dysfunctional guts that cannot handle gluten, lectins, casein, etc… in fact, very few people do have problems with them! Many paleo theories are based upon sick people being normal. Sick people are abnormal!

Medium avatar

(78)

on March 13, 2014
at 03:08 PM

I agree! So why are we paleo in the first place! If lectins and such aren't so bad, what's the fuss? I fee; like everything is a hoax!

Medium avatar

on March 14, 2014
at 03:28 AM

Creative, you're asking right questions. Paleo is just a term for a broad-based eating style. It's not very rigid. Just about everyone fits into its big tent, including ketosis eaters, Fuhrman-like 10-15% meat-limit vegetarians, pescatarians, food avoidance neurotics, etc. As far as lectins go, the case against it is crumbling; what we thought was a Neolithic agent of disease is turning out to be an important nutrient source. If you have no problems with legumes, you should not avoid it. It's not like gluten, whose effect is stealthy and insidious.

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