13

votes

McEwen on Kruse: hack her critique of K's use of evolutionary biology

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created April 01, 2012 at 11:17 PM

I'll start with my question: Do you agree with Melissa McEwen's critique of Jack Kruse's (mis)use of evolutionary biology?

I should note that I am a fan of both McEwen and Kruse.

McEwen's blog post is here:

http://huntgatherlove.com/content/uses-and-misuses-evolutionary-biology-1

McEwen accuses Kruse of equivocating between two views of evolution - one static, the other malleable. She writes, "Therein lies an essential paradox - on one hand our genes are ???paleolithic,??? but on the other they are malleable simply by thinking differently."

Here are some initial thoughts toward answering my question.

I'm pretty sure that everybody who studies and thinks about genetics these days distinguishes between (i) the underlying DNA sequence - which often underlies 'static' views of genetics - and (ii) changes in gene expression that can be inherited by the previous 1-3 generations - this is the realm of epigenetics, which often underlies the 'malleable' view of genetics. Yet both the genome and the epigenome have static and malleable features that are relevant to us as seekers of health.

Over time both genes and epigenetics evolve - the DNA sequence evolves, but the nature or pattern of shorter term changes in gene expression also evolves.

My understanding is that Kruse believes that cold adaptation opens up an evolutionarily-old metabolic pathway that lies dormant in - and is thus available to - all of us. He made similar 'old pathway' speculations when he talked about rewiring the hypothalamus in the leptin reset series.

So epigenetic changes are short-term and thus not stable over 30+ generations. Yes, however, changes to the nature of how epigenetics works can and, in fact, must reflect the long-term evolution of our epigenome. There is a difference between (i) the evolution of the epigenome which delimits the scope of possible epigentic effects, and (ii) those epigenetic effects. The former evolves over the long term, the latter changes over a small number of generations.

My understanding is that epigenetic changes begin with changes in gene expression that occur in response to environmental inputs of one generation, and that these changes can transfer to the next 1-3 generations in the form of altered probabilities in gene expression. The thought that 'might just change your DNA' is the first generation of change in epigenetic gene expression.

I am clearly not an expert in genetics or epigenetics (nor do I think that McEwen or Kruse are). However, I see a pretty intuitive - though perhaps charitable - interpretation of Kruse that saves him from the charge of equivocation. Perhaps he is not 'having it both ways' - rather, he is just talking about the genome and epigenome as most do: Both 'systems' evolve, both effect probabilities of gene expression, and both thus have static and malleable features that are worth speculating about because they might be relevant to achieving health.

What do you think? Do you agree with Melissa McEwen's critique of Jack Kruse's (mis)use of evolutionary biology?

06c0ce9ada45c9680344e22e28b3960f

on January 06, 2014
at 07:09 PM

Want to clarify that Kruse has insinuated to Grammy1952 (colleen coble) that he used HCG to lose the fat. I do not recall if it was in his own Optimized forums, or the HCG diet (I think he alludes to it on the latter), but he clearly references HCG as doing amazing things for him with his weight loss.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on July 29, 2012
at 07:33 PM

I can understand why Melissa's so sensitive about people like Minger, but when it comes to Kruse she should be out for blood (figuratively speaking). It's like her recent Chick Fil-A post, which summarizes perfectly the whole hipster "we're-beyond-having-actual-political-opinions" ethos - so we'll refrain from eating there because of maconutrient composition instead.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on July 29, 2012
at 07:00 PM

Oh, I know... I mean here on PH - is there some kind of moratorium on him? Every time I ask a Kruse-related question it gets closed. And considering that Melissa was one of the ones he so publicly fingered, wouldn't you think they'd welcome some kind of visible followup? Since he claimed his FB was hacked, there's been NOTHING here - nada, zilch. Kind of odd, if you ask me.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on July 29, 2012
at 12:47 PM

This isn't a WWF, and these aren't cage matches. Chill out with the hyperbole.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on July 29, 2012
at 12:45 PM

You can find him on his website at http://jackkruse.com, he's got some interesting new articles about CT and shellfish, and he's got occasional webinars.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on July 29, 2012
at 07:46 AM

I wouldn't be mentioning the name Denise Minger around Melissa. Just sayin'...

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on June 30, 2012
at 02:19 AM

They haven't weighed in on it in this particular interaction, but both have addressed in their own way, and with their own theories on their blogs.

870fdea50f2a9f1cd2890c8e22549300

(2056)

on May 16, 2012
at 03:38 PM

Re "headfirst": beware of the mammalian dive reflex!

E05b8d2c9ae8a9a92341785f342f131d

(346)

on April 03, 2012
at 10:40 AM

Eric: I didn't get angry - I just implied that Kruse was needlessly obscure and said that that was a bad thing. I think it's pretty intuitive to prefer clarity and concision, though I can also vaguely understand your enjoyment of a good ramble. However I don't understand your comment on McEwan and Kruse's relative expertise in genetics. Your own description of their areas of expertise indicates that McEwan has a much stronger background in genetics.

Fddbf985647ca4b3c389331a6fab33d4

(90)

on April 03, 2012
at 05:39 AM

i think she has every right to theorisise (ok i made up that word...i guess). she has a bright mind and good education - yes. BUT when it comes to working with thousands of patients and having handson experiments, i do think Kruse wins that one.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 03, 2012
at 02:50 AM

I gave it an up-vote. :-)) I thought you said a lot in a few words and I'm sure you're not the only one with that reaction, Warren.

0fb8b3d6dcfb279b0f7e050d2d22510f

(4645)

on April 03, 2012
at 02:41 AM

I have read several of his books (several times), I think most people haven't. His books on diabetes control are outstanding. Low carbers that traveled into paleo as well as the entire diet world owes Dr Atkins a debt of gratitude for clearing the way. I started on Atkins and it saved my life, Paleo was the next step as it was dietry fat that was the key. I disagree with you but that is what sites like these are about on the internet. Lately Taubes is the dog to kick....and by people with NO credentials outside of an interent connection.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 03, 2012
at 01:34 AM

Say, PH friends, no one scolded me for saying "baby" to Melissa yesterday but I want to clarify anyhow. I've been watching a ton of college basketball and if you know who Dick Vitale is, he ends just about every sentence with "baby." So I was giving Melissa a compliment and used the term with a light heart. Just so you know.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:42 PM

I'm glad to hear there's a statement in the works. From my observations at Paleo FX (I tend to be an uninvolved wallflower), I thought I saw something along those lines developing but couldn't be sure (some other info I can't divulge also contributed to that idea). Looking forward to it.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:29 PM

In person at Paleo FX, he just kept telling the audience that it was over our heads. That's certainly not helping it come across any clearer to me, and it doesn't make me care too much either. :/

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 02, 2012
at 08:18 PM

so someone who has studied genetics and worked hard to pass classes on it isn't more of an authority to you than someone with expertise in an entirely different subject?

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:42 PM

Boo: it looks like that polar bear club only plunges once a year, right? That sucks.

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:34 PM

Coja: They didn't have the internet. The famous statistician Andrew Gelman rambles all over his blog, and I love it. The Nobelist Gary Becker and the iconic Richard Posner leave typos in their blogs, and they almost never retract or correct errors in previous posts. Its the internet, writers can approach it however they want to - that's what's great about it. But to get angry over somebody's approach? That's not intuitive to me.

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:30 PM

I have access to those journal articles too. I don't see you as more or less of an expert on genetics than Kruse. You have your paleoanthropology background plus genetics coursework. He has his dental-medical-neurosurgical-optimal health practice (whatever) background plus wide reading. You both have done interesting self experimentation. Its apples and oranges. Different backgrounds, different perspectives. (I'm not always this relativistic in my critical evaluation of things.)

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:29 PM

I have access to those journal articles too. I don't see you as more or less of an expert on genetics than Kruse. You have your paleoanthropology background plus genetics coursework. He has his dental-medical-neurosurgical-optimal health practice (whatever) background plus wide reading. You both have done interesting self experimentation. Its apples and oranges. Different backgrounds, different perspectives.

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:25 PM

I know about peer reviewed papers and what they mean, though it changes by field. In my field mere citations count, unless you famous for being panned. In my wife's field, law, however, citations are considered less important in the sense that they cannot be used as a proxy to gauge the scholarly quality and/or impact of a legal scholar.

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:23 PM

Kruse has a bunch of papers on his CV here: http://www.neurosurgical.net/. Follow the link to his name, then to his CV. Unfortunately it is in flash. I like the guy, but he is not good at choosing web developers :)

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:16 PM

Admit it, though, that theoretical speculation about these frontiers is fun. And so long as we self experiment with our theories responsibly, there is no harm in it.

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:14 PM

I actually think this is an OK answer. Clearly I care about their opinions about evolutionary biology a lot, and they do very different things with their respective opinions. So fundamentally we disagree. But its not clear that my friend who is a PhD student in biochem/genetics would really care about their opinions, which would seem like interesting, non-technical outsider views at best. I'm glad she does her careful research. I'm glad Kruse speculates ambitiously. And I'm glad that McEwen pushes back on this speculation. My post is about a point of contact that I think was mishandled.

284213562569be43dfda0ad40914da6f

on April 02, 2012
at 07:14 PM

@raydawg, many times, like with the anti-vaccine crowd, a concerted effort by an interest group can make it seem like "test the controversy" is a fruitful endeavor when it was actually the case that it had been tested, albeit unethically and incorrectly in macro, and the underlying mechanisms in isolation many times before. When people ask Kruse how Apa Sherpa eating wheat dumpling soup is a ketogenic diet he answers in abstractions. I doubt confronting him with research clearly contradicting his claims would have any effect on the phenomenon.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:19 PM

I thought you were my friend? lol

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 05:43 PM

shah78 accurately described my position; I "gave Dr K slack" but I am appalled that anyone would deliberately eat bad food to compromise their health so they could deliberately expose themselves to the risks of surgery and experimental therapies. However, I still feel it's much more effective to share that type of information than just say "he's a quack" and expect people to follow blindly.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on April 02, 2012
at 05:37 PM

@rawdawg, I am personally in love with VLC for myself, but am completely agnostic about carbs for other people, so, ummmm, no this isn't a conspiracy, just trying to call 'em as I see 'em.

8fbbf720caae616b07d3a8a12e59093f

(56)

on April 02, 2012
at 03:50 PM

He doesn't recommend "showers". His is immersion! And or packs, etc.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 02, 2012
at 02:18 PM

Oh no you didn't!

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 02, 2012
at 02:06 PM

dude raydawg, I already said I have a post on that in the works. I suspect you didn't read my post. I'm not going to try to fund experiments on it though. That's a little much to ask, particularly since there are already experiments out there.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on April 02, 2012
at 01:49 PM

Have you read Atkins first book? The reason he still "gets kicked around" is that he made some rather outrageous claims in it. Atkins also clearly was a calorie guy -- his energy balance equation claimed you peed out thousands of calories as ketones. Also he spoke of some mythical fat mobilizing substance found only in the urine of low carbers. Low carb has a long history of quackery.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 02, 2012
at 01:21 PM

I'try your method. I will even give it a whole 5 seconds. I'll keep shouting out "it's only annoying for 2-3 seconds, it's only annoying for 2-3 seconds".

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 02, 2012
at 01:11 PM

If he is advocating numbness, I'm headed for the liferaft. I have adrenal issues bigtime.I spent five to eight minutes a day, fifteen times a month in the gym.(toal:100 minutes) My personal theraflex gel ice pack protocol is on par with my gym "stress". Haven't even shivered yet.Don't plan too.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 02, 2012
at 01:03 PM

@beth. Also try Capt. Queeg, Capt. Kurtz , Dr. Evil.....You've also been open minded. Skeptical,sure, but open. @raydawg. Cliquish hidding under a patina of "science".I'm going under the assumption that almost nothing he claims as background is remotely correct. I'm only concentrating on cold+ketogenic+seasonal. BFD! I feel so out on a limb! :)

7e1433afbb06c318c4d90860d493c49d

(5959)

on April 02, 2012
at 12:59 PM

Just like Denise Minger has nowhere near the knowledge to or expertise to even dare question T. Colin Campbell. And, just like Denise, Melissa is a only pretty young girl... what could she *possibly* know about anything?

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on April 02, 2012
at 12:36 PM

Actually, like Nance, I've been one of those trying to cut Jack a bit of slack, thinking that the biggest problem was his difficulty in communicating. I hoped that, like Taubes, his efforts -- even if ultimately unsupported by the facts -- would lead to further explorations and new insights. But elective survery w/o anesthesia? Injecting MRSA? Kruse is either crazy like a fox or else he's the Martin Sheen character in the Dead Zone.

06c0ce9ada45c9680344e22e28b3960f

on April 02, 2012
at 11:53 AM

My impression was that he did NOT have lipo, but rather a tummy tuck. I could be wrong, of course. He went on SAD and no CT for 2+ months in order to get back into "SAD" mode (immunologically and pain threshold-wise) and also to gain weight to have a reason for the surgery.

284213562569be43dfda0ad40914da6f

on April 02, 2012
at 11:04 AM

downvoted for no content. lol

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on April 02, 2012
at 10:34 AM

@Melissa - So the next question you should have, is this: is the health of those who are cold adapted, and eat a shitty diet improved over those who just eat a shitty diet? Since you have a polar bear club, why don't you go find out and write a paper on it? Even if both a VLC-style paleo diet and cold is necessary in Dr. Kruse's protocol, there should be some level of improvement without all of the steps. Rather that just make fun of, do what a real scientist does: test your hypothesis, and provide the results for peer review.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on April 02, 2012
at 10:28 AM

I love how some of the answers here, say something along the lines of "I didn't read your question" or "I don't know enough about the science, but X did a great job" but are willing to provide an answer anyway. And those get upvoted! Wow! If that doesn't indicate popularity contest, I'm not sure what would! This whole thread smells of politics, as usual. Thank you for having the mental clarity to point out what others have shamefully ignored, or forgotten.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on April 02, 2012
at 10:21 AM

I find it funny, or maybe, perhaps not so funny, how the anti-VLC folks seem to be against Kruse, and anyone else who takes a VLC stance. How very cliquish!

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on April 02, 2012
at 10:17 AM

@sha78 - I find showers are easier if you literally plunge in head first. Tried hitting the cold water on legs or torso, it didn't work nearly as well. It's an annoying 2-3 seconds, but after that, it feels very tolerable, even warm though the temperature of the water hasn't actually changed.

E05b8d2c9ae8a9a92341785f342f131d

(346)

on April 02, 2012
at 09:58 AM

Eric S: Kant, Havermas and Quine didn't use the internet as their preferred medium. With the web, popular writers are immediately made aware of anything confusing in their writing, and therefore have no excuse for clarifying them.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:43 AM

Isn't unnecessary surgery where you cross the line from scientist to mad scientist?

Bf57bcbdc19d4f1728599053acd020ab

(5043)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:30 AM

Genetics and epigenetics is like quantum physics. It's really complicated. Even the experts don't fully understand it yet. For anyone with no deep background in the subject to pontificate on it like he does raises massive red flags for me.

Bf57bcbdc19d4f1728599053acd020ab

(5043)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:22 AM

No, n=1 is not the basis of evolution. It's the basis of personal health. You have to reproduce in order to pass any favorable genetic mutations on to offspring, so that would be n=2, at least. And don't forget that evolution/natural selection is a very slow process. And you cannot alter your genome by thinking, no matter how big your thinking cap. If it works for you in the here and now, more power to you. But don't call it "evolution." That's Kruse's biggest failing, in my book. He co-opts scientific terminology and then gives it another pretty much unrelated meaning. Very confusing.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 02, 2012
at 06:43 AM

Is there a polar bear club here? oh sweet, there is! http://www.lakeviewpolarbearclub.com/ it might amuse you to meet 100s of people who eat shitty diets who handle cold better than Dr. Kruse and his followers :)

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:41 AM

That's awesome. Let me know if you ever wanna swim with UChicago dorks. My wife and friends are pretty squeamish about cold water.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 02, 2012
at 06:36 AM

Yes, you are underthinking this. Start checking Dr. Kruse's contentions, look for real evidence. It's not there. If you did a real cold adaptation protocol, like in Wim Hof's new book or doing saunas/cold pools, you would not experience any numbness. It's not dangerous for 1-5 minutes, but it's certainly not a good sign and I'm glad you are not going any longer than that if you are feeling it! I am swimming in Lake Michigan and I am not getting numb.

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:35 AM

No, I've wondered why Kruse sees a connection between n3-n6 and cold adaptation as well. I'll ask him on his blog - why not..

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:32 AM

Hmm, I wonder if we're talking about the same thing when we say 'numb'. I'm pretty casual about cold water, and probably not adapted. But I love slowly turning the shower to the coldest point (in Chicago, which gets to about 45-55). I love getting into the 45 degree lake michigan. Maybe its dangerous - but it feels really refreshing and healthy. This is mostly independent of Kruse. The interweb says that a normal person can remain conscious in 45 degree water for 30-60 minutes. That makes my 1-5 minutes seems pretty innocuous. Do you think I'm underthinking this?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 02, 2012
at 06:31 AM

I can't find where he says that, but any numbness, whether you blister or not, is dangerous. I don't know what to say to someone who disputes that. Also, can you find any evidence at all that 06/3 ratio has anything to do with cold adaptation in humans? Wim Hof is the champion of cold adaptation and eats a normal dutch diet, which is full of omega-6.

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:26 AM

Also, I found Kruse pretty clear about the difference between white, numb toes, and one's skin turning white rather than pink: "..you are not following the protocol. It clearly states if your skin gets white and you blister stop and get your 06/3 ratio checked before going forward. If you are going to do it your way I have no answers for that." Maybe I inferred this difference where others would not.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 02, 2012
at 06:23 AM

I have a lot of friends in NYC who are serious about cold- members of the Coney Island Polar Bear Club or year-round barefoot runners. The whole point of cold adaptation is that you are able to adapt so that your body does not vasoconstrict in the cold. The best way to do this is not the Quilt's CT, it's doing the sauna-cold pool. That's how I've always done it. It works and has been very well researched in Finnoscandia. No just-so stories needed.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 02, 2012
at 06:21 AM

I swim in very cold water fairly often and never have felt numb. That's not safe at all to feel numb. It means you are not properly adapted and hitting the danger zone.

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:18 AM

That's fair. I read that comment by Wolf, and wondered: If a person with low adrenal status approaches CT slowly, as per Kruse's recommendation, then wouldn't they'd know something was wrong before it became dangerous. Also, when I swim in cold water (unrelated to CT), my toes feel numb, that's pretty normal.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 02, 2012
at 06:16 AM

ah, here is one. He is the second author http://thejns.org/doi/abs/10.3171/spi.2001.95.1.0088 it is in his area of expertise. It is properly formatted with real references. Maybe the other authors did most of the writing. Or his hacking has caused neurological damage since 2001.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:16 AM

The Ancestral health movement has the potential to help a lot of people. Kruse is not the face we need to put on this movement, not by a long-shot. Wolf, LaLonde, Harris, all of the people who care enough to separate fact from theory and who are big enough to change as new information comes in, those are the people we need giving TED talks.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 02, 2012
at 06:14 AM

also, having a peer reviewed paper isn't a big deal unless it's in a big journal and cited many times.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 02, 2012
at 06:14 AM

Where are Dr. Kruse's peer reviewed papers? Also, Emily Deans is NOT friends with Dr. Kruse.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 02, 2012
at 06:04 AM

actually, maybe that's the MRSA infection he injected into himself...!@&*#@ scary shit

284213562569be43dfda0ad40914da6f

on April 02, 2012
at 06:04 AM

@kamal, Kruse told you the #1 reason for people to do his CT is for 'performance.' I recall hearing about a device into which you placed your hands, where in a crude sense your core thermoreg is triggered, supposedly giving you enhanced recovery during exercise. Why does he then advocate whole body icing? http://www.stanfordalumni.org/news/magazine/2005/julaug/features/cool.html http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22076097

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 02, 2012
at 06:03 AM

in his comments there are people asking if it's normal for their toes to turn white and go numb! Dr. Kruse says " "My entire torso has been numb for 8 months now."

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 02, 2012
at 06:02 AM

Yes, people have been injured following his advice. You should read more of the comments on his site. Here is what Robb Wolf said to me "he has some good recommendations but I was talking to Chris Kresser and Lane Seibring about this. I person with very low adrenal status (late adrenal failure) could die from a cold water immersion. It's not a fix all unfortunately and could be very bad for the wrong person. "

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 04:25 AM

Thanks for responding. I definitely assumed that your post was hard to write as a fellow player of connect-the-Kruse-dots. Fine line between plagiarism and synthesis, but I remain open to this charge. Same with difference between dangerous just-so storytelling and theoretical speculation. I'm probably naive, but I don't get why people are deeply concerned. Has anyone been injured following his advice? If there is a disconnect between his theory and practical advice, is it really dangerous? I feel like I could rewrite all of his posts with the same content but without causing any controversy.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 02, 2012
at 03:49 AM

The structure of this informal "online debate" is terribly confusing. As the #2 high school debater in the state of Ohio in 1998 (yes...thank you very much...bowing profusely), I was used to precise standards for logic and internal consistency, but didn't know anything due to being an 18 year old dummy. Now, 14 years later, I see that age plays little role in how clear one's thinking is. The issues of precision, validity, dose-response relationship, and proper citation are often missing when discussing the relationship between evolution and health. Melissa is noteworthy in her objectivity.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 02, 2012
at 03:44 AM

Having tried cold baths when four hour body came out and read about leptin via Lyle McDonald ten years ago, I see a noted difference in this case. Neither claimed ownership of these ideas. It's quite a difficult issue, because if you question the reasoning behind any given Quilt idea, you get blasted. If you say something is jumping to conclusions, you are deemed as someone who is letting their neolithic mind domineer their ancient pathway.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 03:40 AM

How did it feel to have a PH question about you? I think you've made it, baby! Thanks for taking the time to share this interesting bit of your perspective.

183f5c49a7a9548b6f5238d1f33cb35e

(1716)

on April 02, 2012
at 03:35 AM

Kruse did not have any good reason to undergo surgery as he was in 100% good health, has his wisdom teeth removed previously, etc. So he gained 25 pounds by eating SAD for a couple of months. The fat gain was to induce a reason for surgery, ie lipo. He could have blasted off the fat with ct if he wanted, but the need for surgery was part of the experiment.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 02, 2012
at 03:23 AM

I am more of an expert than Kruse is. The reason I have access to the journal articles I do is because I'm enrolled in an evolutionary biology program. I have had a year of college-level genetics, which is not required in any med school I know of, certainly not when Jack was in med school.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on April 02, 2012
at 03:20 AM

BTW ... Kruse claims his cold therapy kills off fat cells. So ESPECIALLY then, why would he need lipo?

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on April 02, 2012
at 03:19 AM

@Melinda: Why did he have lipo? What's the deal with the MRSA stuff?

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 02:34 AM

There is a long history of unorthodox scientists experimenting on themselves. It certainly shows a faith in his ideas! Honestly, it doesn't strike me as something for me to either tolerate or not tolerate. Also, even among my intellectual friends, I've always had a preference for those who mixed a little creative craziness with their brilliance. I can't really say if Kruse is one such individual, but he often reminds me of my smarter friends who purchase deeper or more interesting insights at the cost of being a little crazy or committing bigger mistakes when they are wrong.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 02, 2012
at 02:30 AM

It wasn't sans anesthésia. He had a general but no local or narcotics. He had liposuction. Most plastic surgery uses lots of local anesthetics to help with post op pain and decrease bleeding during surgery. He wanted to prove that he could eliminate post op pain and prevent infection using cold.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on April 02, 2012
at 02:18 AM

Purposefully gaining 25 lbs to undergo unspecified surgery sans anesthesia and injecting MRSA (or claiming to) is a bit too much to tolerate as mere quirkdom. Don't ya think?

6498694060d879a7960b35913539b75f

(1307)

on April 02, 2012
at 01:30 AM

Yay! I was hoping we'd have yet another thread on this guy!

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 01:28 AM

I like the way your mind's working. I'd call it "elegant self-focus" and if you have good results maybe I'll gutsy-up and try it too. :-))

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 02, 2012
at 01:20 AM

I'm playing with Theraflex gel ice packs and baths. Showers are the most brutal. I'll pass on them for a while. And you're absolutly correct. He didn't invent cold thermogenesis. He's probably a few thousand years late to the party.And so am I. So what!He pointed me toward a potential "coldmine". ....Or maybe he didn't!:) I'll let you all know.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 01:11 AM

Thanks for the kind word below. Did you click on the link to Normal Breathing? Even if we consider it fun reading, their article gives specific tips on how to work up carefully and test whether you're doing too much--with cold, not weights. The weights are a problem for me, because I have to guess since I never get any symptoms 'til the next day.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 02, 2012
at 01:04 AM

You have also been consistantly open minded about Kruse. Good for you.You'd think Kruse were the CEO of Mansanto or Mcdonald's.You seem to know the answer. Peace.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 02, 2012
at 12:58 AM

@eric. You are one of the few open minded people on PH. I tried Butter Oil and it worked, I tried ketogenic diet and it worked. I tried BBS "more is less" and it worked. I'll give Kruse's protocol a chance and see what happens.

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 12:42 AM

If you're talking about the cold thermogenesis stuff, I'd be surprised if anyone could get hurt from slowly increasing their tolerance to cold water.

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 12:39 AM

His statements might often be elliptical and obtuse, but his critics generally do a poor job of finding examples that are inane and false. It's OK to not want to do the work of reading him charitably, but I also think that for those who decide not to, they shouldn't sling criticisms of his content from the hip (this doesn't describe what McEwen did, imo). If one stops at Kruse's style before reading him, then I think one should stop at his style when critiquing him. Seems like a fair expectation to me.

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 12:34 AM

Hmm, my impression from twitter is that Deans and Kruse are friends - but I don't think anything really hinges on this. Kruse has peer reviewed publications. They are quite different than his haphazardly written blog posts - that's why I think the response to his book will interesting. Note how most answers on this thread avoid the issue I asked about. Sure, that's largely Kruse's fault, but that don't make it right or helpful.

C2ad96801ec1e22d2bf62475b6e52751

(1416)

on April 02, 2012
at 12:32 AM

Hey guys, who's down for another thread on this guy?

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on April 02, 2012
at 12:29 AM

Either he's making shit up or the authorities in his state should be informed. I'm hoping for making shit up. In the UWR interview we learn he's roughly my age which was why I asked about that here at PH a while back. I grew up outside of NYC, his endearing anecdotes about riding the subway solo to go to the museum do not mesh with reality. But that is not a subject of critical importance. His latest biohack with intentions to use this on his patients -- or even just suggest it -- is.

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 12:26 AM

I think we can go past choosing between McEwen and Kruse. Personally, I'd take McEwen for paleoanthropology, and Kruse for speculations on the mechanisms the constitute our evolved biology. That said, I think it would be more helpful if we focused on the issue at hand: is Kruse caught in a paradox? Or is there another plausible reading of his writings on evolutionary biology?

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on April 02, 2012
at 12:24 AM

"The response [from medical establishment] will be interesting" - no, not really. Doctors like Emily Deans and Kurt Harris think he is a quack. Kurt also said that is claims about injecting himself with MRSA will get him in trouble with the medical regulatory bodies in his state. http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2012/04/you-pcs-vs-jack-kruse-md-dds.html

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on April 02, 2012
at 12:17 AM

Eric, Jaminet still thinks he is a crank whether he is "clearer" in person or not, and maybe it speaks more of Wolf than anything else if thinks Kruse is brilliant. Being "hard to read" is different than continually making inane, false statements.

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 12:09 AM

I think Kruse has two target audiences. One is laypersons - and those struggling with the paleo diet in particular - whom he claims to want to help. The second is doctors, and he claims to want to deeply change their thinking on health and nutrition in a more paleo direction. Most of us on PH share this desire to see the medical establishment shift - and Kruse's nerdy obscurities might serve him well on this front, especially once he organizes his thoughts into a technical book. For this audience, complicated won't = smart. The response will be interesting.

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 12:06 AM

Kant, Habermas, and Quine are really hard to read without arduous interpretation, but we still read them fruitfully. The same with most scientific papers steeped in quantitative methodology. I prefer clarity too, but some thinkers find that it holds them back. Jaminet says that Kruse is much clearer in person. And Wolf calls him brilliant. That said, I appreciate your points.

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15 Answers

29
9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 02, 2012
at 03:34 AM

You have no idea how hard that post was to write. I mean, it's so hard to read Dr. Kruse's writing and find consistant threads in it. He has references on the bottom of some post, but mostly they do not correspond to things in his posts that I wanted to check.

I have several more posts to write, but help me out here. I mean, Eric, can you find any evidence that epigenetic adaptations to the cold of 3 billion years ago are still conserved today? Of course epigenetics affects evolution, my point is that they are not conserved and they are not as malleable as Dr. Kruse makes them out to be.

I do have a post in the works on reasons why Dr. Kruse's theories do work for some people. I would note that Art De Vany has been touting almost the exact same recommendations for years. That doesn't surprise me since Dr. Kruse is a known plagiarist. Cold adaptation might work for you, but probably not for the reasons that Dr. Kruse says it works.

I will also say that some paleo bigwigs who are probably more respected than I am have a statement on Kruse in the works because they are deeply deeply concerned. I wish I could quote them.

Thermal hacking has a VERY long history and also has been known to be unsafe in certain situations for certain people.

I will also say that I have access to all those nice journals because I am enrolled in an evolutionary biology program, though I do not intend to complete it because I would like to enroll in a PhD program hopefully studying genetic adaptations to diet. I am not a geneticist and have so much to learn, but I have a year of college level genetics classes under my belt at this point and many more years of evolutionary biology classes, so I'm not really a layman or an expert at this juncture. But MDs currently are not required to take ANY ev bio or genetics now, so I highly doubt that Jack has ever done such a class.

Dr. Kruse should either commit to being really serious about learning evolutionary biology OR he should be like Dr. Rosedale and not rely on questionable just-so stories with little evidence. I think he just enjoys grand narratives.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on April 02, 2012
at 10:34 AM

@Melissa - So the next question you should have, is this: is the health of those who are cold adapted, and eat a shitty diet improved over those who just eat a shitty diet? Since you have a polar bear club, why don't you go find out and write a paper on it? Even if both a VLC-style paleo diet and cold is necessary in Dr. Kruse's protocol, there should be some level of improvement without all of the steps. Rather that just make fun of, do what a real scientist does: test your hypothesis, and provide the results for peer review.

284213562569be43dfda0ad40914da6f

on April 02, 2012
at 06:04 AM

@kamal, Kruse told you the #1 reason for people to do his CT is for 'performance.' I recall hearing about a device into which you placed your hands, where in a crude sense your core thermoreg is triggered, supposedly giving you enhanced recovery during exercise. Why does he then advocate whole body icing? http://www.stanfordalumni.org/news/magazine/2005/julaug/features/cool.html http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22076097

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 02, 2012
at 02:06 PM

dude raydawg, I already said I have a post on that in the works. I suspect you didn't read my post. I'm not going to try to fund experiments on it though. That's a little much to ask, particularly since there are already experiments out there.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 02, 2012
at 03:44 AM

Having tried cold baths when four hour body came out and read about leptin via Lyle McDonald ten years ago, I see a noted difference in this case. Neither claimed ownership of these ideas. It's quite a difficult issue, because if you question the reasoning behind any given Quilt idea, you get blasted. If you say something is jumping to conclusions, you are deemed as someone who is letting their neolithic mind domineer their ancient pathway.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 02, 2012
at 06:21 AM

I swim in very cold water fairly often and never have felt numb. That's not safe at all to feel numb. It means you are not properly adapted and hitting the danger zone.

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:42 PM

Boo: it looks like that polar bear club only plunges once a year, right? That sucks.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 02, 2012
at 06:23 AM

I have a lot of friends in NYC who are serious about cold- members of the Coney Island Polar Bear Club or year-round barefoot runners. The whole point of cold adaptation is that you are able to adapt so that your body does not vasoconstrict in the cold. The best way to do this is not the Quilt's CT, it's doing the sauna-cold pool. That's how I've always done it. It works and has been very well researched in Finnoscandia. No just-so stories needed.

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:41 AM

That's awesome. Let me know if you ever wanna swim with UChicago dorks. My wife and friends are pretty squeamish about cold water.

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:26 AM

Also, I found Kruse pretty clear about the difference between white, numb toes, and one's skin turning white rather than pink: "..you are not following the protocol. It clearly states if your skin gets white and you blister stop and get your 06/3 ratio checked before going forward. If you are going to do it your way I have no answers for that." Maybe I inferred this difference where others would not.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 02, 2012
at 06:04 AM

actually, maybe that's the MRSA infection he injected into himself...!@&*#@ scary shit

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 03:40 AM

How did it feel to have a PH question about you? I think you've made it, baby! Thanks for taking the time to share this interesting bit of your perspective.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 02, 2012
at 06:02 AM

Yes, people have been injured following his advice. You should read more of the comments on his site. Here is what Robb Wolf said to me "he has some good recommendations but I was talking to Chris Kresser and Lane Seibring about this. I person with very low adrenal status (late adrenal failure) could die from a cold water immersion. It's not a fix all unfortunately and could be very bad for the wrong person. "

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 02, 2012
at 06:03 AM

in his comments there are people asking if it's normal for their toes to turn white and go numb! Dr. Kruse says " "My entire torso has been numb for 8 months now."

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:35 AM

No, I've wondered why Kruse sees a connection between n3-n6 and cold adaptation as well. I'll ask him on his blog - why not..

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on April 02, 2012
at 03:49 AM

The structure of this informal "online debate" is terribly confusing. As the #2 high school debater in the state of Ohio in 1998 (yes...thank you very much...bowing profusely), I was used to precise standards for logic and internal consistency, but didn't know anything due to being an 18 year old dummy. Now, 14 years later, I see that age plays little role in how clear one's thinking is. The issues of precision, validity, dose-response relationship, and proper citation are often missing when discussing the relationship between evolution and health. Melissa is noteworthy in her objectivity.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 02, 2012
at 06:43 AM

Is there a polar bear club here? oh sweet, there is! http://www.lakeviewpolarbearclub.com/ it might amuse you to meet 100s of people who eat shitty diets who handle cold better than Dr. Kruse and his followers :)

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:32 AM

Hmm, I wonder if we're talking about the same thing when we say 'numb'. I'm pretty casual about cold water, and probably not adapted. But I love slowly turning the shower to the coldest point (in Chicago, which gets to about 45-55). I love getting into the 45 degree lake michigan. Maybe its dangerous - but it feels really refreshing and healthy. This is mostly independent of Kruse. The interweb says that a normal person can remain conscious in 45 degree water for 30-60 minutes. That makes my 1-5 minutes seems pretty innocuous. Do you think I'm underthinking this?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 02, 2012
at 06:31 AM

I can't find where he says that, but any numbness, whether you blister or not, is dangerous. I don't know what to say to someone who disputes that. Also, can you find any evidence at all that 06/3 ratio has anything to do with cold adaptation in humans? Wim Hof is the champion of cold adaptation and eats a normal dutch diet, which is full of omega-6.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 03, 2012
at 01:34 AM

Say, PH friends, no one scolded me for saying "baby" to Melissa yesterday but I want to clarify anyhow. I've been watching a ton of college basketball and if you know who Dick Vitale is, he ends just about every sentence with "baby." So I was giving Melissa a compliment and used the term with a light heart. Just so you know.

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:18 AM

That's fair. I read that comment by Wolf, and wondered: If a person with low adrenal status approaches CT slowly, as per Kruse's recommendation, then wouldn't they'd know something was wrong before it became dangerous. Also, when I swim in cold water (unrelated to CT), my toes feel numb, that's pretty normal.

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 04:25 AM

Thanks for responding. I definitely assumed that your post was hard to write as a fellow player of connect-the-Kruse-dots. Fine line between plagiarism and synthesis, but I remain open to this charge. Same with difference between dangerous just-so storytelling and theoretical speculation. I'm probably naive, but I don't get why people are deeply concerned. Has anyone been injured following his advice? If there is a disconnect between his theory and practical advice, is it really dangerous? I feel like I could rewrite all of his posts with the same content but without causing any controversy.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:16 AM

The Ancestral health movement has the potential to help a lot of people. Kruse is not the face we need to put on this movement, not by a long-shot. Wolf, LaLonde, Harris, all of the people who care enough to separate fact from theory and who are big enough to change as new information comes in, those are the people we need giving TED talks.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 02, 2012
at 06:36 AM

Yes, you are underthinking this. Start checking Dr. Kruse's contentions, look for real evidence. It's not there. If you did a real cold adaptation protocol, like in Wim Hof's new book or doing saunas/cold pools, you would not experience any numbness. It's not dangerous for 1-5 minutes, but it's certainly not a good sign and I'm glad you are not going any longer than that if you are feeling it! I am swimming in Lake Michigan and I am not getting numb.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 02, 2012
at 01:11 PM

If he is advocating numbness, I'm headed for the liferaft. I have adrenal issues bigtime.I spent five to eight minutes a day, fifteen times a month in the gym.(toal:100 minutes) My personal theraflex gel ice pack protocol is on par with my gym "stress". Haven't even shivered yet.Don't plan too.

284213562569be43dfda0ad40914da6f

on April 02, 2012
at 07:14 PM

@raydawg, many times, like with the anti-vaccine crowd, a concerted effort by an interest group can make it seem like "test the controversy" is a fruitful endeavor when it was actually the case that it had been tested, albeit unethically and incorrectly in macro, and the underlying mechanisms in isolation many times before. When people ask Kruse how Apa Sherpa eating wheat dumpling soup is a ketogenic diet he answers in abstractions. I doubt confronting him with research clearly contradicting his claims would have any effect on the phenomenon.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:42 PM

I'm glad to hear there's a statement in the works. From my observations at Paleo FX (I tend to be an uninvolved wallflower), I thought I saw something along those lines developing but couldn't be sure (some other info I can't divulge also contributed to that idea). Looking forward to it.

16
7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on April 02, 2012
at 12:21 AM

Two things: First I will take Melissa over Jack on the question of evolutionary biology every day of the week. Second, via Jack's TEDxNashville presentation, we learned that he intentionally gained 25 lbs, had elective plastic surgery without anesthesia and after injecting himself with MRSA, and went home and relieved his post-op pain with ice.

He is now practicing his protocol (save for the MRSA presumably) on his patients.

The man is committed to his vision that's for sure. But the Vegas odds on whether he will actually be committed may not be in his favor!

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 12:26 AM

I think we can go past choosing between McEwen and Kruse. Personally, I'd take McEwen for paleoanthropology, and Kruse for speculations on the mechanisms the constitute our evolved biology. That said, I think it would be more helpful if we focused on the issue at hand: is Kruse caught in a paradox? Or is there another plausible reading of his writings on evolutionary biology?

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 12:42 AM

If you're talking about the cold thermogenesis stuff, I'd be surprised if anyone could get hurt from slowly increasing their tolerance to cold water.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on April 02, 2012
at 05:37 PM

@rawdawg, I am personally in love with VLC for myself, but am completely agnostic about carbs for other people, so, ummmm, no this isn't a conspiracy, just trying to call 'em as I see 'em.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on April 02, 2012
at 10:21 AM

I find it funny, or maybe, perhaps not so funny, how the anti-VLC folks seem to be against Kruse, and anyone else who takes a VLC stance. How very cliquish!

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on April 02, 2012
at 12:29 AM

Either he's making shit up or the authorities in his state should be informed. I'm hoping for making shit up. In the UWR interview we learn he's roughly my age which was why I asked about that here at PH a while back. I grew up outside of NYC, his endearing anecdotes about riding the subway solo to go to the museum do not mesh with reality. But that is not a subject of critical importance. His latest biohack with intentions to use this on his patients -- or even just suggest it -- is.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 02, 2012
at 01:03 PM

@beth. Also try Capt. Queeg, Capt. Kurtz , Dr. Evil.....You've also been open minded. Skeptical,sure, but open. @raydawg. Cliquish hidding under a patina of "science".I'm going under the assumption that almost nothing he claims as background is remotely correct. I'm only concentrating on cold+ketogenic+seasonal. BFD! I feel so out on a limb! :)

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on April 02, 2012
at 12:36 PM

Actually, like Nance, I've been one of those trying to cut Jack a bit of slack, thinking that the biggest problem was his difficulty in communicating. I hoped that, like Taubes, his efforts -- even if ultimately unsupported by the facts -- would lead to further explorations and new insights. But elective survery w/o anesthesia? Injecting MRSA? Kruse is either crazy like a fox or else he's the Martin Sheen character in the Dead Zone.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:43 AM

Isn't unnecessary surgery where you cross the line from scientist to mad scientist?

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 05:43 PM

shah78 accurately described my position; I "gave Dr K slack" but I am appalled that anyone would deliberately eat bad food to compromise their health so they could deliberately expose themselves to the risks of surgery and experimental therapies. However, I still feel it's much more effective to share that type of information than just say "he's a quack" and expect people to follow blindly.

14
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 02, 2012
at 12:52 AM

I could give a rat's ass as to who is "correct". The question for me is "Will cold thermogenesis+ketogenic diet+ seasonal eating help me finish my thirty year battle with fibro/cfs/adrenalfatigue/hypothyroid/depression/severe allergies/" After three weeks, my tentative opinion is the guy is on to something. I feel better. The pissing match is annoying! I'll update weekly if anyone cares. The program costs nothing.Let me repeat,nothing! The side effects= maybe the cold I got on the third day. Also I've hurt my back/neck twice because the cold adaption made me stronger, so I added weight and overdid it.I've been lifting weights since 1974.There is something to the "COLD". I don't care if it has anything to do with evolution or not!.....Have we all forgot about the concept of (n=1). Isn't (n=1) the basis of evolution?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 02, 2012
at 01:21 PM

I'try your method. I will even give it a whole 5 seconds. I'll keep shouting out "it's only annoying for 2-3 seconds, it's only annoying for 2-3 seconds".

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 02, 2012
at 01:20 AM

I'm playing with Theraflex gel ice packs and baths. Showers are the most brutal. I'll pass on them for a while. And you're absolutly correct. He didn't invent cold thermogenesis. He's probably a few thousand years late to the party.And so am I. So what!He pointed me toward a potential "coldmine". ....Or maybe he didn't!:) I'll let you all know.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 01:28 AM

I like the way your mind's working. I'd call it "elegant self-focus" and if you have good results maybe I'll gutsy-up and try it too. :-))

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 01:11 AM

Thanks for the kind word below. Did you click on the link to Normal Breathing? Even if we consider it fun reading, their article gives specific tips on how to work up carefully and test whether you're doing too much--with cold, not weights. The weights are a problem for me, because I have to guess since I never get any symptoms 'til the next day.

8fbbf720caae616b07d3a8a12e59093f

(56)

on April 02, 2012
at 03:50 PM

He doesn't recommend "showers". His is immersion! And or packs, etc.

Bf57bcbdc19d4f1728599053acd020ab

(5043)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:22 AM

No, n=1 is not the basis of evolution. It's the basis of personal health. You have to reproduce in order to pass any favorable genetic mutations on to offspring, so that would be n=2, at least. And don't forget that evolution/natural selection is a very slow process. And you cannot alter your genome by thinking, no matter how big your thinking cap. If it works for you in the here and now, more power to you. But don't call it "evolution." That's Kruse's biggest failing, in my book. He co-opts scientific terminology and then gives it another pretty much unrelated meaning. Very confusing.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on April 02, 2012
at 10:17 AM

@sha78 - I find showers are easier if you literally plunge in head first. Tried hitting the cold water on legs or torso, it didn't work nearly as well. It's an annoying 2-3 seconds, but after that, it feels very tolerable, even warm though the temperature of the water hasn't actually changed.

870fdea50f2a9f1cd2890c8e22549300

(2056)

on May 16, 2012
at 03:38 PM

Re "headfirst": beware of the mammalian dive reflex!

11
E05b8d2c9ae8a9a92341785f342f131d

(346)

on April 01, 2012
at 11:47 PM

I think the fact that you have to do so much interpretation to make sense of what Kruse says is not a point in his favour.

You're right that neither McEwan nor Kruse are experts in genetics*. The difference is that McEwan knows she is not an expert, and therefore restricts her claims about genetics to what comes out of reputable scientific literature. Kruse apparently thinks he is an expert, and makes radical claims without the reputable science to back it up. In the words of Daniel J. Boorstin, "the greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge".

Admittedly, I'm seeing this mainly through the lens of Melissa McEwen's blog, but I've never heard anything but skepticism, from any paleo blogger I respect, about Kruse's theories. For example, Paul Jaminet seems to tacitly admit Kruse is a crank, but refuses to directly call him out because he doesn't want to be unpleasant.

*But see Melissa McEwan's comment below. McEwan does have academical credentials in the field of genetics, which Kruse lacks completely, so far as we know.

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on April 02, 2012
at 12:17 AM

Eric, Jaminet still thinks he is a crank whether he is "clearer" in person or not, and maybe it speaks more of Wolf than anything else if thinks Kruse is brilliant. Being "hard to read" is different than continually making inane, false statements.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 02, 2012
at 03:23 AM

I am more of an expert than Kruse is. The reason I have access to the journal articles I do is because I'm enrolled in an evolutionary biology program. I have had a year of college-level genetics, which is not required in any med school I know of, certainly not when Jack was in med school.

E05b8d2c9ae8a9a92341785f342f131d

(346)

on April 02, 2012
at 09:58 AM

Eric S: Kant, Havermas and Quine didn't use the internet as their preferred medium. With the web, popular writers are immediately made aware of anything confusing in their writing, and therefore have no excuse for clarifying them.

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 12:39 AM

His statements might often be elliptical and obtuse, but his critics generally do a poor job of finding examples that are inane and false. It's OK to not want to do the work of reading him charitably, but I also think that for those who decide not to, they shouldn't sling criticisms of his content from the hip (this doesn't describe what McEwen did, imo). If one stops at Kruse's style before reading him, then I think one should stop at his style when critiquing him. Seems like a fair expectation to me.

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 12:06 AM

Kant, Habermas, and Quine are really hard to read without arduous interpretation, but we still read them fruitfully. The same with most scientific papers steeped in quantitative methodology. I prefer clarity too, but some thinkers find that it holds them back. Jaminet says that Kruse is much clearer in person. And Wolf calls him brilliant. That said, I appreciate your points.

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:30 PM

I have access to those journal articles too. I don't see you as more or less of an expert on genetics than Kruse. You have your paleoanthropology background plus genetics coursework. He has his dental-medical-neurosurgical-optimal health practice (whatever) background plus wide reading. You both have done interesting self experimentation. Its apples and oranges. Different backgrounds, different perspectives. (I'm not always this relativistic in my critical evaluation of things.)

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 02, 2012
at 08:18 PM

so someone who has studied genetics and worked hard to pass classes on it isn't more of an authority to you than someone with expertise in an entirely different subject?

E05b8d2c9ae8a9a92341785f342f131d

(346)

on April 03, 2012
at 10:40 AM

Eric: I didn't get angry - I just implied that Kruse was needlessly obscure and said that that was a bad thing. I think it's pretty intuitive to prefer clarity and concision, though I can also vaguely understand your enjoyment of a good ramble. However I don't understand your comment on McEwan and Kruse's relative expertise in genetics. Your own description of their areas of expertise indicates that McEwan has a much stronger background in genetics.

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:29 PM

I have access to those journal articles too. I don't see you as more or less of an expert on genetics than Kruse. You have your paleoanthropology background plus genetics coursework. He has his dental-medical-neurosurgical-optimal health practice (whatever) background plus wide reading. You both have done interesting self experimentation. Its apples and oranges. Different backgrounds, different perspectives.

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:34 PM

Coja: They didn't have the internet. The famous statistician Andrew Gelman rambles all over his blog, and I love it. The Nobelist Gary Becker and the iconic Richard Posner leave typos in their blogs, and they almost never retract or correct errors in previous posts. Its the internet, writers can approach it however they want to - that's what's great about it. But to get angry over somebody's approach? That's not intuitive to me.

8
4781cf8ae1bfcb558dfb056af17bea94

(4359)

on April 01, 2012
at 11:45 PM

I didn't read your full question because I'm not interested in anything having to do with Kruse. His target audience seems to be people that don't get it and assume that complicated = smart. Seems to me that he likes to pretend to be smart but he's not.

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 02:34 AM

There is a long history of unorthodox scientists experimenting on themselves. It certainly shows a faith in his ideas! Honestly, it doesn't strike me as something for me to either tolerate or not tolerate. Also, even among my intellectual friends, I've always had a preference for those who mixed a little creative craziness with their brilliance. I can't really say if Kruse is one such individual, but he often reminds me of my smarter friends who purchase deeper or more interesting insights at the cost of being a little crazy or committing bigger mistakes when they are wrong.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 02, 2012
at 06:14 AM

Where are Dr. Kruse's peer reviewed papers? Also, Emily Deans is NOT friends with Dr. Kruse.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on April 02, 2012
at 03:19 AM

@Melinda: Why did he have lipo? What's the deal with the MRSA stuff?

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 12:34 AM

Hmm, my impression from twitter is that Deans and Kruse are friends - but I don't think anything really hinges on this. Kruse has peer reviewed publications. They are quite different than his haphazardly written blog posts - that's why I think the response to his book will interesting. Note how most answers on this thread avoid the issue I asked about. Sure, that's largely Kruse's fault, but that don't make it right or helpful.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 02, 2012
at 06:16 AM

ah, here is one. He is the second author http://thejns.org/doi/abs/10.3171/spi.2001.95.1.0088 it is in his area of expertise. It is properly formatted with real references. Maybe the other authors did most of the writing. Or his hacking has caused neurological damage since 2001.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on April 02, 2012
at 03:20 AM

BTW ... Kruse claims his cold therapy kills off fat cells. So ESPECIALLY then, why would he need lipo?

06c0ce9ada45c9680344e22e28b3960f

on April 02, 2012
at 11:53 AM

My impression was that he did NOT have lipo, but rather a tummy tuck. I could be wrong, of course. He went on SAD and no CT for 2+ months in order to get back into "SAD" mode (immunologically and pain threshold-wise) and also to gain weight to have a reason for the surgery.

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on April 02, 2012
at 12:24 AM

"The response [from medical establishment] will be interesting" - no, not really. Doctors like Emily Deans and Kurt Harris think he is a quack. Kurt also said that is claims about injecting himself with MRSA will get him in trouble with the medical regulatory bodies in his state. http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2012/04/you-pcs-vs-jack-kruse-md-dds.html

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:25 PM

I know about peer reviewed papers and what they mean, though it changes by field. In my field mere citations count, unless you famous for being panned. In my wife's field, law, however, citations are considered less important in the sense that they cannot be used as a proxy to gauge the scholarly quality and/or impact of a legal scholar.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on April 02, 2012
at 02:18 AM

Purposefully gaining 25 lbs to undergo unspecified surgery sans anesthesia and injecting MRSA (or claiming to) is a bit too much to tolerate as mere quirkdom. Don't ya think?

183f5c49a7a9548b6f5238d1f33cb35e

(1716)

on April 02, 2012
at 03:35 AM

Kruse did not have any good reason to undergo surgery as he was in 100% good health, has his wisdom teeth removed previously, etc. So he gained 25 pounds by eating SAD for a couple of months. The fat gain was to induce a reason for surgery, ie lipo. He could have blasted off the fat with ct if he wanted, but the need for surgery was part of the experiment.

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:23 PM

Kruse has a bunch of papers on his CV here: http://www.neurosurgical.net/. Follow the link to his name, then to his CV. Unfortunately it is in flash. I like the guy, but he is not good at choosing web developers :)

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 12:09 AM

I think Kruse has two target audiences. One is laypersons - and those struggling with the paleo diet in particular - whom he claims to want to help. The second is doctors, and he claims to want to deeply change their thinking on health and nutrition in a more paleo direction. Most of us on PH share this desire to see the medical establishment shift - and Kruse's nerdy obscurities might serve him well on this front, especially once he organizes his thoughts into a technical book. For this audience, complicated won't = smart. The response will be interesting.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 02, 2012
at 02:30 AM

It wasn't sans anesthésia. He had a general but no local or narcotics. He had liposuction. Most plastic surgery uses lots of local anesthetics to help with post op pain and decrease bleeding during surgery. He wanted to prove that he could eliminate post op pain and prevent infection using cold.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 02, 2012
at 06:14 AM

also, having a peer reviewed paper isn't a big deal unless it's in a big journal and cited many times.

7
22424c9eef944ade83d4e4ffda907056

(1402)

on April 02, 2012
at 12:01 AM

There are obviously a lot of Kruse skeptics and I think Melissa's article was just putting some actual material down rather than simply calling him a quack.

I think that the nature of Kruse's writing, being poorly written and substantially long, is going to inhibit anyone that could actually explain why it is wrong from wasting their time trying to do so (if such a thing is even possible).

My opinion of it is that he's probably wrong. Key word: probably. He could end up being onto something, but it's very unlikely. He tends to think that because a thought makes sense that it must be true. The banana in winter and "he's a mammal, you're a mammal" logic are horrible for his argument. But the strength of an argument can't always predict truth or fiction.

Is a leptin reset diet good for some (or maybe even a lot of) people? Probably. Are there benefits from exposing your body to cold? Yes. But that doesn't mean that a positive result from those things implies that what he says is factual.

It's probably just going to take time. As time goes on and his methods end up not producing the miraculous effects he claims, that's when we can definitively say he's wrong. Until then, you can never say for sure that the guy's absolutely not onto something.

5
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 29, 2012
at 10:15 AM

In my view both McEwen and Kruse seem to struggle with the definitions of genetics and epigenetics in terms of evolution.

Firstly, in the current model, evolution is mediated by changes in the genome - not the epigenome. Genetic changes take many years, sometimes thousands and tens of thousands of years for changes in genes to have a phenotypic effect.

Epigenetics mediate gene expression changes within individuals and some epigenetic inheritance is evident parentally and grand-parentally (e.g. Dutch hunger winter).

There is no evidence of epigenetic information transmission extending further than a grand parent, i.e. 2 generations in humans.

Epigenetics is also why your neuron cells and muscle cells, whilst having radically different physiological function and gene expression, share the same genome.

Take home message: epigenetics is concerned with transient gene expression changes, intra and intergenerational reversible adaptations.

The biggest and most unappreciated confounder - that both McEwen and Kruse have failed to mention - is the effect of our other genome - that of the thousands of bacterial species that colonize the entirety of our gastrointestinal (GI) tract from birth. It is this genome that is capable of an astonishing degree of evolutionary adaptation and which also is able to dramatically influence the interaction with our environment.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on June 30, 2012
at 02:19 AM

They haven't weighed in on it in this particular interaction, but both have addressed in their own way, and with their own theories on their blogs.

4
0fb8b3d6dcfb279b0f7e050d2d22510f

(4645)

on April 02, 2012
at 02:04 AM

I dont know or care- I follow what has been succesful for me and try out a few things that seem to fit but like Dr Atkins who still gets kicked around, it seems those close to the truth and outside the mainstream are always under the gun. Must be a reason for that.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on April 02, 2012
at 10:28 AM

I love how some of the answers here, say something along the lines of "I didn't read your question" or "I don't know enough about the science, but X did a great job" but are willing to provide an answer anyway. And those get upvoted! Wow! If that doesn't indicate popularity contest, I'm not sure what would! This whole thread smells of politics, as usual. Thank you for having the mental clarity to point out what others have shamefully ignored, or forgotten.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on April 02, 2012
at 01:49 PM

Have you read Atkins first book? The reason he still "gets kicked around" is that he made some rather outrageous claims in it. Atkins also clearly was a calorie guy -- his energy balance equation claimed you peed out thousands of calories as ketones. Also he spoke of some mythical fat mobilizing substance found only in the urine of low carbers. Low carb has a long history of quackery.

0fb8b3d6dcfb279b0f7e050d2d22510f

(4645)

on April 03, 2012
at 02:41 AM

I have read several of his books (several times), I think most people haven't. His books on diabetes control are outstanding. Low carbers that traveled into paleo as well as the entire diet world owes Dr Atkins a debt of gratitude for clearing the way. I started on Atkins and it saved my life, Paleo was the next step as it was dietry fat that was the key. I disagree with you but that is what sites like these are about on the internet. Lately Taubes is the dog to kick....and by people with NO credentials outside of an interent connection.

3
E8dd83fe24a0879d8b16ab4ca92b72dd

(1307)

on June 30, 2012
at 03:07 AM

The doctors I worked with also had more clinical experience than Melissa, medical training, and actually worked with ill people on a daily basis. And I'd trust HER opinion over 95% of them.

It's like Robb Wolf said at the Ancestral Health Symposium: he was considering the field of medicine until he started having to deal with doctors--after that, he didn't want to be associated with them anymore.

Kruse is a brilliant guy, no doubt. But that "doctors are infallible because they're doctors" ideology is the type of absent-minded, starched mitochondria thought process we want to avoid. Less we all become damn 811 indoctrinates...

...eat more fruit...Dr. Graham looks healthy...durianrider knows...something...drool

3
9fe21321f0e2ca22605bc0ca7eee29bd

on April 02, 2012
at 01:42 AM

I think McEwen did a good job in her critique. I don't know enough about evolutionary biology to make a statement on his accuracy. I do know enough to say that if Dr. Kruse is going to write about these ideas, he needs to make a better effort at making them clear to the audience. I think everyone would be better served if he provided more support from scientific literature.

Generating a hypothesis based on evolutionary biology (whether the biology is accurate or not) doesn't mean much without support based on our knowledge of our current biology. Even if he is right, it doesn't look good for the paleo community.

Bf57bcbdc19d4f1728599053acd020ab

(5043)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:30 AM

Genetics and epigenetics is like quantum physics. It's really complicated. Even the experts don't fully understand it yet. For anyone with no deep background in the subject to pontificate on it like he does raises massive red flags for me.

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:16 PM

Admit it, though, that theoretical speculation about these frontiers is fun. And so long as we self experiment with our theories responsibly, there is no harm in it.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on April 02, 2012
at 08:29 PM

In person at Paleo FX, he just kept telling the audience that it was over our heads. That's certainly not helping it come across any clearer to me, and it doesn't make me care too much either. :/

2
96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 12:53 AM

Melissa's post seemed pretty credible to me, but I keep reminding myself I'm not acceptably qualified to critique either of them--I can only choose whether either or both cause me to question my views/actions.

I will say this, to the extent that the benefits of cold adaptation are true they are not original to Dr. Kruse. Please be warned that the site I'll link to gives no research citations but it's clear that the recommendations for cold adaptation go back a long time. The site is called Normal Breathing..

There was also an article on Science Daily News recently about the benefits of cold adaptation--I didn't make it important so I don't have a link.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 02, 2012
at 01:04 AM

You have also been consistantly open minded about Kruse. Good for you.You'd think Kruse were the CEO of Mansanto or Mcdonald's.You seem to know the answer. Peace.

1
725220a3fc595fbb5d96e71bfd690695

(254)

on April 02, 2012
at 05:24 PM

I too believe it was a tummy tuck/skin removal due to the size of the incision he talked about. Usually with lipo you would not have that big of an incision. The skin removal wouldn't surprise me because most people who have lost that amount of weight have excess skin.

-1
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:23 AM

What do you think? Do you agree with Melissa McEwen's critique of Jack Kruse's (mis)use of evolutionary biology?

Does it matter that I don't care what either of them has to say on the subject? lol

284213562569be43dfda0ad40914da6f

on April 02, 2012
at 11:04 AM

downvoted for no content. lol

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 02, 2012
at 06:19 PM

I thought you were my friend? lol

77ecc37f89dbe8f783179323916bd8e6

(5002)

on April 02, 2012
at 07:14 PM

I actually think this is an OK answer. Clearly I care about their opinions about evolutionary biology a lot, and they do very different things with their respective opinions. So fundamentally we disagree. But its not clear that my friend who is a PhD student in biochem/genetics would really care about their opinions, which would seem like interesting, non-technical outsider views at best. I'm glad she does her careful research. I'm glad Kruse speculates ambitiously. And I'm glad that McEwen pushes back on this speculation. My post is about a point of contact that I think was mishandled.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 03, 2012
at 02:50 AM

I gave it an up-vote. :-)) I thought you said a lot in a few words and I'm sure you're not the only one with that reaction, Warren.

-2
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on July 29, 2012
at 07:46 AM

What ever happened to Kruse?

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on July 29, 2012
at 12:45 PM

You can find him on his website at http://jackkruse.com, he's got some interesting new articles about CT and shellfish, and he's got occasional webinars.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on July 29, 2012
at 07:33 PM

I can understand why Melissa's so sensitive about people like Minger, but when it comes to Kruse she should be out for blood (figuratively speaking). It's like her recent Chick Fil-A post, which summarizes perfectly the whole hipster "we're-beyond-having-actual-political-opinions" ethos - so we'll refrain from eating there because of maconutrient composition instead.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on July 29, 2012
at 07:00 PM

Oh, I know... I mean here on PH - is there some kind of moratorium on him? Every time I ask a Kruse-related question it gets closed. And considering that Melissa was one of the ones he so publicly fingered, wouldn't you think they'd welcome some kind of visible followup? Since he claimed his FB was hacked, there's been NOTHING here - nada, zilch. Kind of odd, if you ask me.

-9
01adafcb4dd4147c6af543f61eee60a8

on April 02, 2012
at 12:28 PM

Mcewen has nowhere near the knowledge or expertise to even dare to question kruse.

7e1433afbb06c318c4d90860d493c49d

(5959)

on April 02, 2012
at 12:59 PM

Just like Denise Minger has nowhere near the knowledge to or expertise to even dare question T. Colin Campbell. And, just like Denise, Melissa is a only pretty young girl... what could she *possibly* know about anything?

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 02, 2012
at 02:18 PM

Oh no you didn't!

Fddbf985647ca4b3c389331a6fab33d4

(90)

on April 03, 2012
at 05:39 AM

i think she has every right to theorisise (ok i made up that word...i guess). she has a bright mind and good education - yes. BUT when it comes to working with thousands of patients and having handson experiments, i do think Kruse wins that one.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on July 29, 2012
at 12:47 PM

This isn't a WWF, and these aren't cage matches. Chill out with the hyperbole.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on July 29, 2012
at 07:46 AM

I wouldn't be mentioning the name Denise Minger around Melissa. Just sayin'...

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