13

votes

Any specifics on what Gary Taubes' outburst at AHS was all about?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created August 08, 2011 at 8:43 PM

I keep reading short snippets on my blogroll about how Gary Taubes was irrational, egomaniacal, etc., and would like to hear the dirt directly from any of you who were at AHS. Apparently an unwarranted blast at Stephan Guyenet and a gigantic pointed finger at sugar for all obesity-related problems, among other things. I'm not sure what to take from this and would love to see a little discussion/clarification. Haven't really needed to filter through gossip yet in the paleo blogosphere....

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

Aravind has the ultimate in first hand accounts. Hopefully he will post soon...

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on August 11, 2011
at 10:35 PM

It was really no big deal. Lustig was just as passionate and took up just as much time in the questions section every time I saw him, but you don't see people bashing him.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on August 11, 2011
at 10:30 PM

Thank you Dana, for saying what needed to be said

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on August 10, 2011
at 10:18 PM

Dr. Eenfeldt's presentation was terrific; he's a fab speaker! I'm also pretty impressed with his fair representation of the "incident." Tho I had to take issue with his take on implication of the bland liquid diet in Stephan's presentation ;).

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 10, 2011
at 09:05 PM

Beth, that's a sensible explanation. Also, I think Aravind's point about cutting in line, although made in jest, is something we don't get to see in the vid that's online right now. That could qualify as arrogant behavior, but it's not visible to us non-attendees.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on August 10, 2011
at 08:52 PM

Yeah, I think the problem for the folks who weren't there is they had lots of time to imagine how this interchange might have gone, and the reality just didn't measure up. Those of us who were there just weren't expecting it, so it was perhaps a bigger shock for us.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on August 10, 2011
at 08:47 PM

Rose, as I commented above, I think telling the speaker what's key in science is pretty insulting (as did those in attendance). As you can tell from the video, that's what the audience reacts to, not the questions Taubes has early in his remarks.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on August 10, 2011
at 08:44 PM

I worked for years at a company populated by CMU grads and their "confrontational style" so I'm not opposed to loud disagreeing. What I thought disrespectful -- and hypocritical -- was Taubes' comment at the end, especially the "That's always key in science." As Taubes acknowledged insulting Stephan and then later apologized for it, it's clear he realized he overstepped.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 10, 2011
at 08:39 PM

Sheesh. Typing while excited...

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 10, 2011
at 08:37 PM

..sick to shit of hearing about how we're doing it wrong, because when we try to add starches back in we fatten again. I don't see us VLCers pushing our way for *everyone,* just suggesting it for those who have issues. OTOH, I've seen a *lot* of PHers telling us VLCers that we *need* more carbs, that's we're "hurting ourselves" (by getting healthier, I suppose), and that if we'd hold the fork differently or something, we'd be able to eat potatoes and rice. Trust us when we say, we can't. But we're not going to take them away from you folks who can. Seriously, you can eat all of 'em ya want.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 10, 2011
at 08:34 PM

Bill, I know full well that ZC doesn't work for *everyone* who does it, but the people I know of for whom it failed are a small minority. Maybe I'm not seeing the full set, I dunno. But certainly the studies seem to be showing that LC is a winner over low carb/low fat. Regarding the Paleo != LC thing, I *totally get* why higher carb Paleos are pissed off about that. I do, really deeply truly. I'm married to a terminally fit guy, fercryinoutloud, and *I cook rice for him.* Cuz he wants it and can eat it. We're not all carb nazis, yanno. BUT. Those of us who *must go* VLC or lower are really ...

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on August 10, 2011
at 07:55 PM

Chris took me to the Experimental Biology Conference, a conference for serious scientists, and it wasn't uncommon for the presentations to get ripped apart in the Q&A. That's science and at least it makes for a good show...

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on August 10, 2011
at 07:52 PM

convinced it is. Paleo = low carb for so many, that of course there is a stronger push for people to try a more carb heavy diet because quite frankly, it is much more nutritious than an all meat diet.

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on August 10, 2011
at 07:51 PM

Gary Taubes hypothesis is not true for everyone. Obviously, this is a crushing realization for him. If he didn't think Stephan's theory was even in the least bit convincing, why would he get in such a fuss about it? Clearly, there are many different mechanisms that go in to obesity, and not one hypothesis is going to cover all of it. Stephans theory explains a great deal and I think hold much more weight than Gary's, especially in the light of the fact that the majority of HG societies were not low carb. Low carb is not for everyone, especially not long term, and may not be necessary for those

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on August 10, 2011
at 07:48 PM

realize that ZC does not = return to normal weight for everyone. Furthermore, there really aren't even enough people who have come foreward as ZC to show that it even works half the time for restoring a normal BMI as it did for you. Furthermore, there is a strong push for higher carbs and rightfully so, for the ones that can tolerate it, because younger or less metabolically damaged folk come here looking for advice, and the ZC and VLC zealots pedal their diet as the be-all-end-all of Paleos. This gets some people who don't know better into some trouble.

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on August 10, 2011
at 07:45 PM

Wow this answer pissed me off that I just had to respond. No one is hating on the "fatties", as you so nicely put it Dana. Quite the contrary, I saw many of your so called "fatties" mingling with the "skinnies" at AHS and getting along very well. What you don't seem to understand is that "Paleo" wasn't created just for the "fatties"... this movement has grown because it addresses a wide variety of health issues and people of all walks reap the benefits. Low carb does NOT work for everyone in terms of weight and Rose, Zero Carb don't either. All it takes is one look at the ZIOH forums to...

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 10, 2011
at 07:37 PM

CarbSane, I experienced similar long periods of stalling on VLC (Atkins induction level carbs). After flailing in various directions, I gave ZC a shot, although I didn't think it would work at all. I mean, geez, I went from 300g/day to 20g/day and got stuck; why would dropping from 20g to, say, 2 or 3g, make a difference? But it did, to my utter and complete surprise. But I agree with you; I shouldn't have characterized your carb intake as "high;" I apologize for that. It's "high" relative to mine, is all.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on August 10, 2011
at 07:28 PM

I just watched the video and it wasn't as bad as anticipated. But did you hear the gasps? I think that "you had to be there moment" is key. Awesome response Stephan!

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on August 10, 2011
at 07:25 PM

FWIW, weight loss is not the problem. Jimmy agreed with me on this issue in my interview with him. Folks forget/ignore that in 1999 he lost 170 lbs in 9 months on a VLF diet. Problem was he couldn't maintain it. He's only faring better, IMO, because he tied his livelihood to weight loss with his LLVLC brand. But he looks like he's gained back to his 2010 LLVLC cruise weight or close.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on August 10, 2011
at 07:23 PM

Excuse me Rose? I insisted on keeping my carbs high? Not true. After two years I tried long stints of VLC and no further weight loss. As a matter of fact when I added carbs I actually lost a little, but 2 lbs is not really significant even for an n=1. I eat no frankenfoods unless you consider the very occasional LC wrap (mostly brans of sorts and cellulose and a bit of - gasp! - grain starch) to be in that category.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on August 10, 2011
at 07:19 PM

conflict is good for sure, but there's never a good reason to intentionally NOT do it in good taste, especially when you are dealing with someone who is regarded as very level headed and very respected in this community like Stephan Guyenet.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 10, 2011
at 06:52 PM

Ooo, ooo, just found this post on Dr. Eenfeldt's site. It's a very nice listing of studies showing LC's effectiveness as a weight-loss tool: http://www.dietdoctor.com/weight-loss-time-to-stop-denying-the-science

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 10, 2011
at 06:17 PM

I guess I'm lost on what was impolite about it. Do folks feel that disagreement should be expressed in writing, or in private? Taubes seemed quite calm, if a bit persistent, to me. Maybe it's just b/c I'm an East Coaster, and don't mind a (civil) argument...?

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on August 10, 2011
at 05:56 PM

Excellent! I will always be on Gary's side of the argument but his behavior was atrocious. I understand where he was coming from and I don't fault him for challenging Stephan but the way he did it was wrong. I am still unclear about this food reward thing as an answer to anything. I've done months of eating nothing but hard boiled eggs. I've done optifast where you drink a barely drinkable glass of swill several times a day. Sure I lost weight but it didn't change anything ultimately. The only people who seem to like this idea are the ones who don't like food to begin with.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on August 10, 2011
at 05:19 PM

Make that Scandinavian

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 10, 2011
at 04:33 PM

Alright, not to perpetuate an unresolvable argument, but really, "It doesn't always work" != "clearly does not solve obesity." If it works for a majority of people who try it -- and two recent one- and two-year studies show it did for the enrollees -- and if the lower the carbs go, the more successful the dieter is (it is called *low* carbing, not *less* carbing), then there's no "No True Scotsman" about it. It doesn't need to work for every last individual in order to be useful for a great many.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on August 10, 2011
at 04:18 PM

Ever heard of the No Trues Scotsman fallacy? I've met very overweight zero carbers and successful zero carbers. It doesn't always work.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on August 10, 2011
at 04:00 PM

Okay, now that I've seen it, I'm astonished that anyone would take offense to his manner. Yes, he persisted in his point. Yes, his point was a little harsh. But if one is of the opinion that a researcher hasn't included all of the relevant data, or that the data doesn't distinguish between the researcher's hypothesis, and another more established one, then I can't think of a more polite way to say it

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on August 10, 2011
at 04:00 PM

Okay, now that I've seen it, I'm astonished that anyone would take offense to his manner. Yes, he persisted in his point. Yes, his point was a little harsh. But if one is of the opinion that a researcher hasn't included all of the relevant data, or that the data doesn't distinguish between the researcher's hypothesis, and another more established one, than I can't think of a more polite way to say it.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 10, 2011
at 03:40 PM

http://www.dietdoctor.com/ahs-showdown-gary-taubes-vs-stephan-guyenet

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on August 10, 2011
at 03:32 PM

I'd like to see that video, Rose. Do you have a link?

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 10, 2011
at 03:18 PM

Ambimorph, as you know, I'm in that boat too. I was never a candy or sweets eater; for me it was pasta, rice, potatoes and bread. And the few times I've tried adding them back in, the weight balloons again. On l'affaire SG/GT, having now seen a video of the event, I think Taubes was polite but challenging. I didn't see evidence of dickishness, other than his willingness to sharply question SG. I suspect the uproar is due to Paleos' warm feelings for SG, who does seem to be thoughtful, circumspect, etc., and a desire to defend a defender of starches, too. ;D

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 10, 2011
at 02:07 PM

Well, Jimmy's still overweight because he can't/doesn't want to cut carbs low enough. That was really the essence of the fight between the ZCers there and him, if I read it right (maybe others have different perspectives). And CarbSane also insisted on keeping her carbs high. I myself stalled at 190 on VLC, but ZC took me all the way down to normal BMI, and fast, too. Just my opinion, but I think the overweight LC bloggers are the ones who still eat LC frankenfoods. It's why I think if someone needs LC/VLC/ZC, a clean, Paleo approach to it is best.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 10, 2011
at 01:59 PM

Beth, Quilt, I agree with both of you. And while I understand that people at the Symposium felt suffused with feelings of brotherly love (I really do wish I'd been there), science is better served by conflict -- however bitter -- than by polite refusal to publicly disagree. Folks have said it was the wrong venue, but I thought the point of Q&A's after a talk was to discuss where the sticking points are, not just to express admiration for someone's all-around great-guyness. But then, I wasn't there; maybe it really was more of a Woodstock than a conference.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on August 10, 2011
at 01:55 PM

it's effective for SOME, but IMHO low-carb is just one of the tools that successful people use, just lowering carbs is not enough, hence so many overweight LC bloggers/figures

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 10, 2011
at 01:30 PM

@Melissa, I don't understand why you think LC clearly does not solve obesity. It's been effective for a great many people, including myself. And the trials run recently on low-carb diets show them to be as effective or more effective than low-fat diets. In what sense does LC not lead to weight loss (outside of a few intransigent cases, but paleo's got a few of those, too).

21e5c600b326f11be546a08fafafdb1c

(0)

on August 10, 2011
at 01:25 PM

Why do people always reduce the entire debate to obesity? Too many carbohydrates cause a whole host of other problems.

21e5c600b326f11be546a08fafafdb1c

(0)

on August 10, 2011
at 01:25 PM

It's not rude if it's true and it's never insulting unless you consider every single vegetarian an insult to humanity.

21e5c600b326f11be546a08fafafdb1c

(0)

on August 10, 2011
at 01:25 PM

So on the one side we have science and years of research, on the other side we have conspiracy theories. I wonder who might be closer to the truth.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 10, 2011
at 01:19 PM

I don't get this: "Really I think this whole anti-Taubes sentiment is just another way the healthy members of the Paleo community distance themselves from the fatties." Anti-Taubes sentiment recently has been based on his rudeness towards Stephan Guyenet combined with holes in his logic about factors in weight gain. While some internet posters might combine this with anti-fat sentiment, those same posters will combine anti-fat sentiment with a lot of their arguments. The "top" bloggers don't seem to defend high-carb or low-carb with any gusto, and are definitely not ridiculing obese people.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 10, 2011
at 01:17 PM

That political view is what incensed so many. Obesity is a brain disease controlled by epigenetics affected by the food supply which is altered by politics and personal choice. Reward is a player but not a dominant player

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on August 10, 2011
at 01:09 PM

@melissa but if it isn't a weight loss diet, then what is it's purpose other than esoteric but very effective ketogenic treatments for certain ailments. there is a role for low carb in fighting obesity but low carb isn't the destination, it's a tool that is very effectively used to get the metabolic pathways repaired.

5266ac5977ec9d80ac8047697dbbe55b

(738)

on August 10, 2011
at 12:21 PM

I like when people use "allowed"..."is frozen yogurt allowed?"..."is marijuana allowed?"..."are Slim Jims allowed?"...

5266ac5977ec9d80ac8047697dbbe55b

(738)

on August 10, 2011
at 12:14 PM

Big ups to whoever hopped on this mobile recording! I like that there is an actual debate going on for at least some period of time here, but Taubes should know that that really wasn't the place for a debate. A debate is the sort of place for a debate. This comes off more whiny and holier-than-thou, when the whole cherry picking thing truly is very ironic! I think Taubes must be shitting his pants about the surge in new information and perspectives on carbohydrates and this was some sort of bratty tantrum about it. "Listen to your friend Stephan Guyenet, he's a cool dude!"

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on August 10, 2011
at 11:18 AM

I think if anything Taubes' questions made me more sympathetic to Lustig's idea that there is something specifically wrong with sugar. Both the trad Mexican and Pima diets are high in carbs and low in sugar. Sugar comes along and they get fat. Is it because of a hormonal effect or sugar's palatability? OR both???? I'm thinking both.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on August 10, 2011
at 11:02 AM

And both Taubes and Taubes-skeptics like myself have emphasized the role of the industrial-capitalist system in destroying people's health. IMHO Taubes says people got fat by eating too many carbs, which frankly is more rude towards the Native people than our theories, as it insults their ancient diets. Hyperpalatibility folks like I emphasize the role of governments and corporations in engineering food to destroy people.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on August 10, 2011
at 10:59 AM

I don't know why people think it's personal when people are highly skeptical of a diet that claims to solve obesity and clearly does not. Maybe low-carbers should stop promoting it as a weight-loss diet and then people wouldn't be so skeptical?

0c939bdddc3d8f8ef923ba8a72aeda71

on August 10, 2011
at 07:24 AM

Well Taubes was being eminently reasonable there, probably too polite given the unfalsifiable nonsense he's responding to.. and Stephan clearly mischaracterizes Taubes' last question when he "answers" it, which would annoy me too (not "carbs" as such but triggered by "introduction of sugar and refined carbs").

0c939bdddc3d8f8ef923ba8a72aeda71

on August 10, 2011
at 07:12 AM

Taubes wasn't even defending a carbcentric hypothesis there, as a bunch of people have mischaracterized. He was questioning SG's ill-thought "food reward: a dominant factor in obesity" thing and the plains Indians and Pima which (I understand) he alluded to are certainly plausible counterexamples insofar as the reward hypothesis is one of the falsifiable versions.

425aa4bfb79556ed50ea693c3edd7e13

(609)

on August 10, 2011
at 03:33 AM

The basic problem with the food-reward theory is it's just pushing the problem around. He neither explains why dysregulation occurs nor does he explain the remarkable way in which people approach and eventually settle -- for decades -- on a very specific weight, which for some is merely overweight and for others is varying degrees of obesity.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 10, 2011
at 01:31 AM

My favorite is when presenters fist fight. This altercation was too cerebral-verbal to count as a fight in my view.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 10, 2011
at 01:25 AM

Beth this is what i wondered......but i think way too much was made of it. I guess you all have never been to a real medical meeting. We go after each other. The Kracken mentioned it in his talk. I guess we are conditioned for it.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on August 09, 2011
at 11:50 PM

all the Swedish people were so hot...

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on August 09, 2011
at 03:38 PM

Re word getting around, I wondered if Stephan's comment on his blog that no one who studied "metabolism/endocrinology professionally" takes the idea of "postprandial insulin spikes = fat gain" seriously had gotten to Taubes and so the latter came loaded for bear.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on August 09, 2011
at 03:24 PM

I was there. I'm not opposed to challenges to Stephan's theory (I have some of my own). However, as I commented elsewhere, I thought Taubes behaved like a dick. BTW, I'm guessing that the video record will also show Taubes -- whose presentation immediately followed Stephan's -- making a comment about "insulting" Stephan at the start of Taubes' Q&A. All this said, ultimately it's been more visibility and great PR for Stephan; glad to hear Taubes apologized.

2ab6415f5f20b8fe1d34a94c7be85e6a

on August 09, 2011
at 05:51 AM

I actually think Guyenet looks a lot like Anton Yelchin

C0fcb48d7da4f76fac17318efd2cd6b8

(4069)

on August 09, 2011
at 04:44 AM

Is peyote paleo?

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 09, 2011
at 03:11 AM

Meredith is just lashing out because of my unplanned marriage at AHS. She is just using Matthew to draw me out. But he will be tossed out like her old pair of hose since she can't get enough of the Ghee-meister. Sorry Matthew, hate the game not the player.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:35 AM

Uh oh, Ghee Wolverine is going to be pissed...

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:24 AM

Matthew said 'tis - therefore he is my AHS 2012 DATE (ps matthew, I am so old I wear support hose, so don't feel so lucky to have been clubbed over the head by this cavelady!) I wear support hose ironically though!

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on August 08, 2011
at 11:39 PM

And certainly for the metabolically screwed, such as I am, starch is unworkable. I was about to say something to the effect that maybe starch will perpetuate metabolic problems, but not cause them, as I've heard others speculate, but at least in my case, I don't think it's so. I've never had a sweet tooth, but I've always craved starches.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on August 08, 2011
at 11:35 PM

Fair enough, Aravind. Travis, I'm not really sure. At one point, I thought that the combination of fructose and glucose, such as is found in sucrose or HFCS is worse than either alone, but clinical studies are mixed, and I'm leery of drawing conclusions based purely on mechanisms.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on August 08, 2011
at 11:12 PM

Thanks thaneverbefore, I added the comment link.

Aa3a90ba6f6a6d488f28cfcdc4e05627

on August 08, 2011
at 10:51 PM

http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2011/08/wonder-what-he-said.html?showComment=1312835722015#c8884172602838768928 - direct link to comment

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on August 08, 2011
at 10:37 PM

Also I may have an Gary (Hansel) Taubes image stuck in my head now...

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on August 08, 2011
at 10:32 PM

Tis ok Aravind :) I had heard the background somewhere else. I would have similar feelings meeting Lindeberg :P

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 10:27 PM

Well I led into the question by throwing out the possibility of the lack of controlled experiments to validate and he concurred. He then acknowledged (again) that it was not the only factor. This was the tail end of the conversation before Chris Masterjohn and Staffan Lindeberg joined and the conversation changed direction.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 08, 2011
at 10:26 PM

It was pretty crazy. And out of the blue Staffan asks "Do you guys explain your downvotes on paleohacks?" and then we all start laughing in the inanity of it all.

E91fd339d760ed76cc72570a679ebf5a

(2369)

on August 08, 2011
at 10:24 PM

+1 for "the Ancel Keys of carbohydrates"

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 10:22 PM

@Matthew - so this is being slightly taken out of context. Stephan, Kamal, et al were talking about Gary Taubes and the notion of cherry picking data. So then I said "so how does Taubes explain Kitava". Almost on queue, Lindeberg shows up (WHICH WAS SO AWESOME). Stephan introduced him to us as Staffan Lindeberg and it just flowed from my previous sentence to ask him if he knew what we were talking about. I meant no disrespect because the guy is a legend. The only warped one in the conversation that hopefully picked up the subtle irony of my comment was Kamal

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 10:18 PM

@Kamal - given his stature and age, it would be more like going to Jane Goodall and asking her if she's heard about chimps

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on August 08, 2011
at 10:17 PM

@Aravind - At least you didn't say "I'm so bored with the Kitavans".

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 08, 2011
at 10:05 PM

Oh crap, I forgot about that. Staffan looked confused. If Kurt Harris goes to the next AHS, I'm going to tell him about my 12-step process to remove neolithic agents of disease from my diet.

1ccc0b0b7a756cd42466cef8f450d0cb

(1801)

on August 08, 2011
at 10:05 PM

Good stuff! So what holes does Stephan see in his theory?

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on August 08, 2011
at 10:01 PM

I'm not a great fan of Taubes work in general but I'm tend to be more sympathetic of people speaking in such a public situation in front of a large audience. I reckon we all have our moments, particularly if feeling rather bugged about something at the time, that we may look back on and think we could have expressed ourselves better.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 09:56 PM

You left out the part where I asked Lindeberg if he had heard about the Kitavans. I'm such a jack ass!

Medium avatar

(39831)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:54 PM

I'm kinda glad that Taubes is focusing more on sugar/fructose these days. There's a snippet in WWGF where he said something like "or it might just be all the result of fructose rather than carbs as a whole" but the rest of it just kind of slants toward anti-starch as well. If I recall, you yourself are VLC or ZC or something, but perhaps we can agree that fructose is more important.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:52 PM

It's just like college. You spend all this money, and the best part is sitting in the back row and laughing. Although Staffan Lindeberg asking Chris Masterjohn for an impromptu ten minute summary of his presentation and getting it...that was pretty cool too.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 09:52 PM

No one is suggesting that the theory should not be challenged. It was the delivery of the challenge that was inappropriate IMO. And yes, it appears he has apologized so obviously GT came to the same conclusion regarding the impropriety of the comments

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 09:49 PM

@Travis - Kamal and I are going to create a video documentary of the weekend. It will be called "Kumar and Kumar go to AHS". Coming soon to a theater near you. Kal Penn will play both of us with the use of neolithic CGI, similar to Jean Claude Van Damme in Double Impact or Jet Li in what ever the heck that movie was

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 09:48 PM

@Travis - Kamal and I are going to create a video documentary of the weekend. It will be called "Kumar and Kumar go to AHS". Coming soon to to at theater near you. Kal Penn will play both of us with the use of neolithic CGI, similar to Jean Claude Van Damme in Double Impact or Jet Li in what ever the heck that movie was

Medium avatar

(39831)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:45 PM

Well, at least he apologized.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 09:41 PM

Clashes are not the issue. This was the FIRST annual AHS which was meant to bring people together and be collegial. No one is trying to shut down debate. We only get better through debate and disagreement. The tactics, particularly in this setting, were in question

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 09:41 PM

Clashes are not the issue. This was the FIRST annual AHS which was meant to bring people together and be collegial. No one is trying to shut down debate. We only get better through debate and disagreement. The tactics, particularly in this setting, is in question

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7314)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:40 PM

^^I bet that's it.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:40 PM

Does that mean Loren Cordain is Mugatu? "Hi Derek! My name's Little Cletus and I'm here to tell you a few things about child labor laws, ok? They're silly and outdated. Why back in the 30s, children as young as five could work as they pleased; from textile factories to iron smelts. Yippee! Hurray!"

5266ac5977ec9d80ac8047697dbbe55b

(738)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:39 PM

Awesome to hear directly from Stephan himself. Thanks Matthew!

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 09:38 PM

Do you think she is threatened by my open and public proclamation of feelings for SG???

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7314)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:37 PM

You got me Aravind!

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 09:37 PM

Straight from the man. Great link!!!

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:36 PM

It was probably Stephan's girlfriend.

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:32 PM

when will the videos be out?

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 09:32 PM

Wow - somebody downvoted me. Awesome!

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on August 08, 2011
at 09:32 PM

she's hotter now with a Hawaii tan and was wearing some sexy outfits

5266ac5977ec9d80ac8047697dbbe55b

(738)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:31 PM

Good point Patrick. Probably one of the first of many similar clashes we're going to see as paleo goes more mainstream.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:25 PM

everybody says denise is hot. it's like... unanimous. whoa! mid comment... I just did a google image search of her. good lordy! what a doll.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 09:24 PM

Actually nothing happened at all. Kamal and I conceived of this as part of our plan to totally mess with all the PH-ers that couldn't go to AHS. Gary Taubes actually went up on stage and gave Stephan a wedgie. It was f-ing hilarious!

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 09:23 PM

Actually nothing happened at all. Kamal and I conceived of this as part of our plan to totally mess with all the PH-ers that couldn't go to AHS. Gary Taubes actually went up on stage and gave Stephan a weggie. It was f-ing hilarious!

A65499f2f8c65602881550fe309cd48c

(3501)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:22 PM

it's all that primal testosterone.

88905cfc5bb098ad3830671a1af373a8

(803)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:21 PM

What must be realized here is that we have a generational/operational clash. Taubes takes five-years to research a book before publishing. Stephan recently got into the idea of food reward so he's talking about it. The audience needs both, but you can see they're coming from different approaches.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 09:18 PM

@Kamal - not only does Taubes look like Owen Wilson, if you put a goatie on Ben Stiller, I see the resemblance with SG too. Hilarious!!!

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 09:12 PM

@M-HGL - Kamal already has dibs on Minger. As much as I have my SG man crush, you best not c-block my boy Kamal by suggesting a different alliance

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 09:11 PM

@M-HGL - Kamal already has dibs on Minger. As much as I have my SG man crush, you best not c-block my boy Kamal.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:10 PM

Someone give this man a free-pass to regale us with frivolity.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on August 08, 2011
at 09:09 PM

Stephan and Denise Minger = way more hotter than I ever imagined. Not that I'm implying they are a couple or anything. They each already are in relationships.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 09:08 PM

Kamal and I came up with so much imagery from that weekend that if the fun governors wouldn't shut us down, we could have all of PH in tears from our commentary. I am still laughing thinking about some of the crazy comedy from the weekend...and I'm not talk about at the bar, but in the sessions!

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 09:06 PM

@Stabby - exactly. Everyone is so hell bent over the word "dominant" vs "important" vs "I don't really know what % to allocate this" theory. Taubes is so intransigent. He is going to become the Ancel Keys of carbohydrates

5266ac5977ec9d80ac8047697dbbe55b

(738)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:03 PM

+1 for the Zoolander imagery!

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:03 PM

Gary Taubes, so hot right now.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 09:03 PM

I have a major man crush on him. Man crushes are TOTALLY paleo!

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on August 08, 2011
at 09:03 PM

whoa, OMG you are so right about Hansel!!!

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 09:02 PM

Thanks bro. We should have slapped him with that big jug of Canola Oil you were slammin'.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on August 08, 2011
at 09:01 PM

Stephan is so chill. He's the best.

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:00 PM

It has been kind of hard to tell but I don't think Stephan is claiming that food reward is all there is to obesity. But then at the same time it is hard to say X culture is lean and has traditional food therefore it's lack of food witch-craft. Taubes should, like, change his position a bit. How smart is he and how big an audience does he have and how easy would it to learn the main stuff that Chris and Stephan know? *stab stab* grr

5266ac5977ec9d80ac8047697dbbe55b

(738)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:00 PM

Really disheartening that that sort of rudeness penetrated the AHS. There's no pecking order in something this new, and all the 'big guys' definitely need each other for new perspectives, findings, etc., especially when their careers depend on it! It seems like Stephan did not entertain the rudeness or keep it going - a very respectable move if you ask me.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on August 08, 2011
at 08:57 PM

I always thought using the Pima as an example was a bit odd.

5266ac5977ec9d80ac8047697dbbe55b

(738)

on August 08, 2011
at 08:56 PM

Yowza! Thanks for the reply, Melissa. That is a little disheartening. Gary's got a lot of solid material to work with, so this little freak out is really not worth tarnishing his reputation within the paleo community before the paleo movement takes its next big steps. Word travels fast in this community - no room for gigantic egos. I admire most of the paleo leaders for their willingness to accept new discoveries, correct/modify/expand upon past claims, and to encourage others to be in some form of constant revision.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on August 08, 2011
at 08:45 PM

That's odd, he has always struck me as one of the more level-headed people around.

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10 Answers

17
D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 08:55 PM

As you will see in the forthcoming video of the conference, he cut in front of me when I went up to ask Stephan a question. My PH brothers and sisters are outraged that he would do that to me...TO ME!!! The subsequent insults to Stephan were secondary....

Yes I was there because he literally cut in front of me - for real. Melissa's summary is correct. He concluded by telling Stephan that good science is about considering all of the facts in a very rude and condescending manner. Stephan's response if I recall was "thanks for the advice".

The real irony is that GT can be accused of the same thing. I think GCBC was a seminal text and this community should be very appreciative of his work irrespective of the conclusions and his causative carb theory (which I disagree with). And even if you don't agree with Stephan, he didn't deserve that berating attack.

I was in another session with Richard Feinman and Robert Lustig. They had essentially the same disagreement regarding macronutrients. Both of them are giants in their fields, but it did not cross the line of impropriety, but maintained the collegial behavior that I would have expected in this forum (even though it was quite apparent that Lustig and Feinman disagreed)

EDIT - More on what a gem Stephan is...Kamal and I ran into him on Friday night in my hotel lobby. He was waiting to go to dinner with a couple other presenters. We started talking about his Food Reward theory. He spent 15 minutes with us and actually kept his party waiting while he was talking to us even though they were waving him over!!! Then on day 2 (as I noted in my other post), he along with Chris Masterjohn, Melissa, and Staffan Lindeberg spent nearly 1 hour talking to me and Kamal. I point blank asked him when it was just Kamal, me, and SG at the beginning what he thought the biggest holes in his theory were and he responded. He didn't tell me to f-off for challenging/questioning him. Classy with a capital C!!!

Gary Taubes, the Ancel Keys of Carbohydrates, so not hot right now

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 09:32 PM

Wow - somebody downvoted me. Awesome!

A65499f2f8c65602881550fe309cd48c

(3501)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:22 PM

it's all that primal testosterone.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 09:38 PM

Do you think she is threatened by my open and public proclamation of feelings for SG???

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 09:11 PM

@M-HGL - Kamal already has dibs on Minger. As much as I have my SG man crush, you best not c-block my boy Kamal.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 09:03 PM

I have a major man crush on him. Man crushes are TOTALLY paleo!

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 10:27 PM

Well I led into the question by throwing out the possibility of the lack of controlled experiments to validate and he concurred. He then acknowledged (again) that it was not the only factor. This was the tail end of the conversation before Chris Masterjohn and Staffan Lindeberg joined and the conversation changed direction.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on August 08, 2011
at 09:32 PM

she's hotter now with a Hawaii tan and was wearing some sexy outfits

5266ac5977ec9d80ac8047697dbbe55b

(738)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:00 PM

Really disheartening that that sort of rudeness penetrated the AHS. There's no pecking order in something this new, and all the 'big guys' definitely need each other for new perspectives, findings, etc., especially when their careers depend on it! It seems like Stephan did not entertain the rudeness or keep it going - a very respectable move if you ask me.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 09:12 PM

@M-HGL - Kamal already has dibs on Minger. As much as I have my SG man crush, you best not c-block my boy Kamal by suggesting a different alliance

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on August 08, 2011
at 09:01 PM

Stephan is so chill. He's the best.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:36 PM

It was probably Stephan's girlfriend.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:25 PM

everybody says denise is hot. it's like... unanimous. whoa! mid comment... I just did a google image search of her. good lordy! what a doll.

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7314)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:40 PM

^^I bet that's it.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on August 08, 2011
at 09:09 PM

Stephan and Denise Minger = way more hotter than I ever imagined. Not that I'm implying they are a couple or anything. They each already are in relationships.

1ccc0b0b7a756cd42466cef8f450d0cb

(1801)

on August 08, 2011
at 10:05 PM

Good stuff! So what holes does Stephan see in his theory?

16
100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:49 PM

This isn't going to be a popular opinion, and I wasn't there, but I am delighted to hear that GT challenged the food reward idea, which I don't find very coherent, and which I think is uncharacteristic of SG, who is usually more scientific and rational. Of course, it's possible I simply don't understand the subtler points of it, but if so, that would probably at least partly be a failure of SG to communicate it. Either way, I'm glad that someone in the community is making it a debate.

I have found GT's responses to opposing views generally both frank and courteous, which is difficult to pull off, and extremely admirable. Perhaps his East coast manner is abrasive to some. I'm sure, though, that he values civility, and if I understand correctly, he has already apologized to SG for it not seeming so.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 09:52 PM

No one is suggesting that the theory should not be challenged. It was the delivery of the challenge that was inappropriate IMO. And yes, it appears he has apologized so obviously GT came to the same conclusion regarding the impropriety of the comments

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on August 08, 2011
at 11:35 PM

Fair enough, Aravind. Travis, I'm not really sure. At one point, I thought that the combination of fructose and glucose, such as is found in sucrose or HFCS is worse than either alone, but clinical studies are mixed, and I'm leery of drawing conclusions based purely on mechanisms.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:54 PM

I'm kinda glad that Taubes is focusing more on sugar/fructose these days. There's a snippet in WWGF where he said something like "or it might just be all the result of fructose rather than carbs as a whole" but the rest of it just kind of slants toward anti-starch as well. If I recall, you yourself are VLC or ZC or something, but perhaps we can agree that fructose is more important.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on August 08, 2011
at 11:39 PM

And certainly for the metabolically screwed, such as I am, starch is unworkable. I was about to say something to the effect that maybe starch will perpetuate metabolic problems, but not cause them, as I've heard others speculate, but at least in my case, I don't think it's so. I've never had a sweet tooth, but I've always craved starches.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on August 09, 2011
at 03:24 PM

I was there. I'm not opposed to challenges to Stephan's theory (I have some of my own). However, as I commented elsewhere, I thought Taubes behaved like a dick. BTW, I'm guessing that the video record will also show Taubes -- whose presentation immediately followed Stephan's -- making a comment about "insulting" Stephan at the start of Taubes' Q&A. All this said, ultimately it's been more visibility and great PR for Stephan; glad to hear Taubes apologized.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 10, 2011
at 03:18 PM

Ambimorph, as you know, I'm in that boat too. I was never a candy or sweets eater; for me it was pasta, rice, potatoes and bread. And the few times I've tried adding them back in, the weight balloons again. On l'affaire SG/GT, having now seen a video of the event, I think Taubes was polite but challenging. I didn't see evidence of dickishness, other than his willingness to sharply question SG. I suspect the uproar is due to Paleos' warm feelings for SG, who does seem to be thoughtful, circumspect, etc., and a desire to defend a defender of starches, too. ;D

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 10, 2011
at 03:40 PM

http://www.dietdoctor.com/ahs-showdown-gary-taubes-vs-stephan-guyenet

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on August 10, 2011
at 04:00 PM

Okay, now that I've seen it, I'm astonished that anyone would take offense to his manner. Yes, he persisted in his point. Yes, his point was a little harsh. But if one is of the opinion that a researcher hasn't included all of the relevant data, or that the data doesn't distinguish between the researcher's hypothesis, and another more established one, than I can't think of a more polite way to say it.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on August 10, 2011
at 04:00 PM

Okay, now that I've seen it, I'm astonished that anyone would take offense to his manner. Yes, he persisted in his point. Yes, his point was a little harsh. But if one is of the opinion that a researcher hasn't included all of the relevant data, or that the data doesn't distinguish between the researcher's hypothesis, and another more established one, then I can't think of a more polite way to say it

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on August 10, 2011
at 03:32 PM

I'd like to see that video, Rose. Do you have a link?

11
0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:34 PM

You can go and read comment 32 on this post.

http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2011/08/wonder-what-he-said.html

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 09:37 PM

Straight from the man. Great link!!!

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on August 08, 2011
at 11:12 PM

Thanks thaneverbefore, I added the comment link.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:45 PM

Well, at least he apologized.

Aa3a90ba6f6a6d488f28cfcdc4e05627

on August 08, 2011
at 10:51 PM

http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2011/08/wonder-what-he-said.html?showComment=1312835722015#c8884172602838768928 - direct link to comment

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on August 08, 2011
at 10:01 PM

I'm not a great fan of Taubes work in general but I'm tend to be more sympathetic of people speaking in such a public situation in front of a large audience. I reckon we all have our moments, particularly if feeling rather bugged about something at the time, that we may look back on and think we could have expressed ourselves better.

5266ac5977ec9d80ac8047697dbbe55b

(738)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:39 PM

Awesome to hear directly from Stephan himself. Thanks Matthew!

11
21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:01 PM

As is said above, Taubes accused Stephan of cherrypicking evidence. He cited cultures that eat monotonous diets and gained weight.

Obviously there are holes in Taubes's argument. Stephan said that food reward was just one of many factors in weight gain, both in his blog and in his presentation.

But the pest part is that, when acting like a dick, Taubes both looks and talks like the pre-friendship version of Hansel (Owen Wilson) in Zoolander. Same slightly crooked nose, same face shape, same suave dickishness. And he cut off my main man Aravind. Not cool homie.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 08, 2011
at 10:26 PM

It was pretty crazy. And out of the blue Staffan asks "Do you guys explain your downvotes on paleohacks?" and then we all start laughing in the inanity of it all.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on August 08, 2011
at 10:37 PM

Also I may have an Gary (Hansel) Taubes image stuck in my head now...

5266ac5977ec9d80ac8047697dbbe55b

(738)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:03 PM

+1 for the Zoolander imagery!

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 09, 2011
at 03:11 AM

Meredith is just lashing out because of my unplanned marriage at AHS. She is just using Matthew to draw me out. But he will be tossed out like her old pair of hose since she can't get enough of the Ghee-meister. Sorry Matthew, hate the game not the player.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:10 PM

Someone give this man a free-pass to regale us with frivolity.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 09:08 PM

Kamal and I came up with so much imagery from that weekend that if the fun governors wouldn't shut us down, we could have all of PH in tears from our commentary. I am still laughing thinking about some of the crazy comedy from the weekend...and I'm not talk about at the bar, but in the sessions!

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 09:56 PM

You left out the part where I asked Lindeberg if he had heard about the Kitavans. I'm such a jack ass!

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:03 PM

Gary Taubes, so hot right now.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 09:49 PM

@Travis - Kamal and I are going to create a video documentary of the weekend. It will be called "Kumar and Kumar go to AHS". Coming soon to a theater near you. Kal Penn will play both of us with the use of neolithic CGI, similar to Jean Claude Van Damme in Double Impact or Jet Li in what ever the heck that movie was

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:24 AM

Matthew said 'tis - therefore he is my AHS 2012 DATE (ps matthew, I am so old I wear support hose, so don't feel so lucky to have been clubbed over the head by this cavelady!) I wear support hose ironically though!

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 09:02 PM

Thanks bro. We should have slapped him with that big jug of Canola Oil you were slammin'.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:40 PM

Does that mean Loren Cordain is Mugatu? "Hi Derek! My name's Little Cletus and I'm here to tell you a few things about child labor laws, ok? They're silly and outdated. Why back in the 30s, children as young as five could work as they pleased; from textile factories to iron smelts. Yippee! Hurray!"

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on August 08, 2011
at 09:03 PM

whoa, OMG you are so right about Hansel!!!

425aa4bfb79556ed50ea693c3edd7e13

(609)

on August 10, 2011
at 03:33 AM

The basic problem with the food-reward theory is it's just pushing the problem around. He neither explains why dysregulation occurs nor does he explain the remarkable way in which people approach and eventually settle -- for decades -- on a very specific weight, which for some is merely overweight and for others is varying degrees of obesity.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 10:18 PM

@Kamal - given his stature and age, it would be more like going to Jane Goodall and asking her if she's heard about chimps

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 09, 2011
at 02:35 AM

Uh oh, Ghee Wolverine is going to be pissed...

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 09:48 PM

@Travis - Kamal and I are going to create a video documentary of the weekend. It will be called "Kumar and Kumar go to AHS". Coming soon to to at theater near you. Kal Penn will play both of us with the use of neolithic CGI, similar to Jean Claude Van Damme in Double Impact or Jet Li in what ever the heck that movie was

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 10:22 PM

@Matthew - so this is being slightly taken out of context. Stephan, Kamal, et al were talking about Gary Taubes and the notion of cherry picking data. So then I said "so how does Taubes explain Kitava". Almost on queue, Lindeberg shows up (WHICH WAS SO AWESOME). Stephan introduced him to us as Staffan Lindeberg and it just flowed from my previous sentence to ask him if he knew what we were talking about. I meant no disrespect because the guy is a legend. The only warped one in the conversation that hopefully picked up the subtle irony of my comment was Kamal

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 08, 2011
at 10:05 PM

Oh crap, I forgot about that. Staffan looked confused. If Kurt Harris goes to the next AHS, I'm going to tell him about my 12-step process to remove neolithic agents of disease from my diet.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 09:18 PM

@Kamal - not only does Taubes look like Owen Wilson, if you put a goatie on Ben Stiller, I see the resemblance with SG too. Hilarious!!!

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on August 08, 2011
at 10:17 PM

@Aravind - At least you didn't say "I'm so bored with the Kitavans".

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:52 PM

It's just like college. You spend all this money, and the best part is sitting in the back row and laughing. Although Staffan Lindeberg asking Chris Masterjohn for an impromptu ten minute summary of his presentation and getting it...that was pretty cool too.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on August 08, 2011
at 10:32 PM

Tis ok Aravind :) I had heard the background somewhere else. I would have similar feelings meeting Lindeberg :P

2ab6415f5f20b8fe1d34a94c7be85e6a

on August 09, 2011
at 05:51 AM

I actually think Guyenet looks a lot like Anton Yelchin

9
C844f422fe799f635e34fc8255ebe754

on August 08, 2011
at 11:15 PM

So I'm rappelling down Mount Vesuvius when suddenly I slip, and I start to fall. Just falling, ahh ahh, I'll never forget the terror. When suddenly I realize "Holy shit, Hansel, haven't you been smoking Peyote for six straight days, and couldn't some of this maybe be in your head?"

C0fcb48d7da4f76fac17318efd2cd6b8

(4069)

on August 09, 2011
at 04:44 AM

Is peyote paleo?

5266ac5977ec9d80ac8047697dbbe55b

(738)

on August 10, 2011
at 12:21 PM

I like when people use "allowed"..."is frozen yogurt allowed?"..."is marijuana allowed?"..."are Slim Jims allowed?"...

8
9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on August 08, 2011
at 08:48 PM

He accused Stephan of not looking at the evidence carefully enough and ignoring cases like the Pima that don't fit into food reward. Admittedly this is what Chris told me, since I preferred to attend a more interesting session led by Thatpaleoguy and Emily Deans. Hilariously, I wonder if Taubes has ever read about the Pima. Their native diet is high-carb and traditionally they were lean. With the introduction of Western foods, nearly all of them have become obese. Taubes implied that the introduction of sugar into their diet has nothing to do with food reward, which is missing the point to say the least.

Anyone else with a first-hand account?

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 09:41 PM

Clashes are not the issue. This was the FIRST annual AHS which was meant to bring people together and be collegial. No one is trying to shut down debate. We only get better through debate and disagreement. The tactics, particularly in this setting, is in question

5266ac5977ec9d80ac8047697dbbe55b

(738)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:31 PM

Good point Patrick. Probably one of the first of many similar clashes we're going to see as paleo goes more mainstream.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

Aravind has the ultimate in first hand accounts. Hopefully he will post soon...

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 09:41 PM

Clashes are not the issue. This was the FIRST annual AHS which was meant to bring people together and be collegial. No one is trying to shut down debate. We only get better through debate and disagreement. The tactics, particularly in this setting, were in question

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:00 PM

It has been kind of hard to tell but I don't think Stephan is claiming that food reward is all there is to obesity. But then at the same time it is hard to say X culture is lean and has traditional food therefore it's lack of food witch-craft. Taubes should, like, change his position a bit. How smart is he and how big an audience does he have and how easy would it to learn the main stuff that Chris and Stephan know? *stab stab* grr

88905cfc5bb098ad3830671a1af373a8

(803)

on August 08, 2011
at 09:21 PM

What must be realized here is that we have a generational/operational clash. Taubes takes five-years to research a book before publishing. Stephan recently got into the idea of food reward so he's talking about it. The audience needs both, but you can see they're coming from different approaches.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on August 08, 2011
at 08:57 PM

I always thought using the Pima as an example was a bit odd.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on August 09, 2011
at 03:38 PM

Re word getting around, I wondered if Stephan's comment on his blog that no one who studied "metabolism/endocrinology professionally" takes the idea of "postprandial insulin spikes = fat gain" seriously had gotten to Taubes and so the latter came loaded for bear.

5266ac5977ec9d80ac8047697dbbe55b

(738)

on August 08, 2011
at 08:56 PM

Yowza! Thanks for the reply, Melissa. That is a little disheartening. Gary's got a lot of solid material to work with, so this little freak out is really not worth tarnishing his reputation within the paleo community before the paleo movement takes its next big steps. Word travels fast in this community - no room for gigantic egos. I admire most of the paleo leaders for their willingness to accept new discoveries, correct/modify/expand upon past claims, and to encourage others to be in some form of constant revision.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on August 08, 2011
at 09:06 PM

@Stabby - exactly. Everyone is so hell bent over the word "dominant" vs "important" vs "I don't really know what % to allocate this" theory. Taubes is so intransigent. He is going to become the Ancel Keys of carbohydrates

E91fd339d760ed76cc72570a679ebf5a

(2369)

on August 08, 2011
at 10:24 PM

+1 for "the Ancel Keys of carbohydrates"

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 10, 2011
at 01:25 AM

Beth this is what i wondered......but i think way too much was made of it. I guess you all have never been to a real medical meeting. We go after each other. The Kracken mentioned it in his talk. I guess we are conditioned for it.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on August 10, 2011
at 07:19 PM

conflict is good for sure, but there's never a good reason to intentionally NOT do it in good taste, especially when you are dealing with someone who is regarded as very level headed and very respected in this community like Stephan Guyenet.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 10, 2011
at 01:59 PM

Beth, Quilt, I agree with both of you. And while I understand that people at the Symposium felt suffused with feelings of brotherly love (I really do wish I'd been there), science is better served by conflict -- however bitter -- than by polite refusal to publicly disagree. Folks have said it was the wrong venue, but I thought the point of Q&A's after a talk was to discuss where the sticking points are, not just to express admiration for someone's all-around great-guyness. But then, I wasn't there; maybe it really was more of a Woodstock than a conference.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 10, 2011
at 01:31 AM

My favorite is when presenters fist fight. This altercation was too cerebral-verbal to count as a fight in my view.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on August 10, 2011
at 07:55 PM

Chris took me to the Experimental Biology Conference, a conference for serious scientists, and it wasn't uncommon for the presentations to get ripped apart in the Q&A. That's science and at least it makes for a good show...

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on August 10, 2011
at 08:44 PM

I worked for years at a company populated by CMU grads and their "confrontational style" so I'm not opposed to loud disagreeing. What I thought disrespectful -- and hypocritical -- was Taubes' comment at the end, especially the "That's always key in science." As Taubes acknowledged insulting Stephan and then later apologized for it, it's clear he realized he overstepped.

5
4b1102c80af634c3865af7ff222d5379

(50)

on August 10, 2011
at 07:07 AM

You can watch a video of the Taubes/Stephan exchange here- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hzoFgwFeMQ&feature=player_embedded

0c939bdddc3d8f8ef923ba8a72aeda71

on August 10, 2011
at 07:24 AM

Well Taubes was being eminently reasonable there, probably too polite given the unfalsifiable nonsense he's responding to.. and Stephan clearly mischaracterizes Taubes' last question when he "answers" it, which would annoy me too (not "carbs" as such but triggered by "introduction of sugar and refined carbs").

5266ac5977ec9d80ac8047697dbbe55b

(738)

on August 10, 2011
at 12:14 PM

Big ups to whoever hopped on this mobile recording! I like that there is an actual debate going on for at least some period of time here, but Taubes should know that that really wasn't the place for a debate. A debate is the sort of place for a debate. This comes off more whiny and holier-than-thou, when the whole cherry picking thing truly is very ironic! I think Taubes must be shitting his pants about the surge in new information and perspectives on carbohydrates and this was some sort of bratty tantrum about it. "Listen to your friend Stephan Guyenet, he's a cool dude!"

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on August 10, 2011
at 11:18 AM

I think if anything Taubes' questions made me more sympathetic to Lustig's idea that there is something specifically wrong with sugar. Both the trad Mexican and Pima diets are high in carbs and low in sugar. Sugar comes along and they get fat. Is it because of a hormonal effect or sugar's palatability? OR both???? I'm thinking both.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on August 10, 2011
at 05:56 PM

Excellent! I will always be on Gary's side of the argument but his behavior was atrocious. I understand where he was coming from and I don't fault him for challenging Stephan but the way he did it was wrong. I am still unclear about this food reward thing as an answer to anything. I've done months of eating nothing but hard boiled eggs. I've done optifast where you drink a barely drinkable glass of swill several times a day. Sure I lost weight but it didn't change anything ultimately. The only people who seem to like this idea are the ones who don't like food to begin with.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 10, 2011
at 06:17 PM

I guess I'm lost on what was impolite about it. Do folks feel that disagreement should be expressed in writing, or in private? Taubes seemed quite calm, if a bit persistent, to me. Maybe it's just b/c I'm an East Coaster, and don't mind a (civil) argument...?

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on August 10, 2011
at 08:47 PM

Rose, as I commented above, I think telling the speaker what's key in science is pretty insulting (as did those in attendance). As you can tell from the video, that's what the audience reacts to, not the questions Taubes has early in his remarks.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on August 11, 2011
at 10:35 PM

It was really no big deal. Lustig was just as passionate and took up just as much time in the questions section every time I saw him, but you don't see people bashing him.

5
F9a0b72f38860d7601afd5a45bb53394

(3618)

on August 10, 2011
at 06:06 AM

Whether or not the Pima had a high-carb ancestral diet (and I haven't seen a macronutrient rundown so...?), the fact is that eventually they couldn't hunt or grow their own food anymore, at least in the U.S., and as a result had to fall back on government rations: sugar, white flour, canned fruit, etc., and they also had access to soda from the early-to-mid 20th century onward.

There's also the idea that while some foods are deleterious to overall health, other foods are protective, and if one eats enough of foods that are protective, they have greater resistance to foods that are destructive. This is why our species has not died out even though we've been eating grain for 10,000 years and even though people who are eating only grain do tend to die young, lose fertility, mess up their kids, etc.

So it seems to me that eating protective foods would have worked in the Pimas' favor back before first contact with white people. But after they lost their protective foods, there was nothing standing in the way of the destruction of their health.

Or almost nothing. They must be getting just enough of the good foods to keep them from going entirely extinct.

And there's still the point that whatever starts a person on this downhill slide to bad health, carbs aggravate it. At the end of the day, although scientific accuracy is important, in the interests of solving a major problem, hadn't we better start behaving as though carbs cause disease? Or at least specific carbs? For those of you who are already healthy, or mostly healthy, you've got nothing to worry about. For those of us who are sick, we can't eat like you do just yet. I can not go around eating tons of potatoes and rice and crap like that with every meal. I just can't. Period. There are lots of people out there right now who are just like me. When you're on fire it's time to put down the gas can and reach for the water hose. So yes, the gas can should be demonized, at least til the fire's put out. And for some of us that will take years.

Really I think this whole anti-Taubes sentiment is just another way the healthy members of the Paleo community distance themselves from the fatties. I hear this sort of attitude all the time about how stupid we are, how irresponsible we are, what sheep we are, how we're draining the economy, etc., and even when we're not overweight, if we're not just like you, we're "skinny-fat." Always fat, no matter what. And then Taubes comes along and dares to suggest that we didn't get fat on purpose and all of a sudden it's open season.

More specifically, if I had a dollar for every time I saw some Paleo blogger dig at the fatness of the low-carb crowd--most recently, scuttlebutt about Jimmy Moore still not being in perfect physical shape, never mind the incredible accomplishments he's had already--I would be able to attend next year's Ancestral Health Symposium with nary a dime out of my own pocket.

If I'm seeing things the wrong way, if I'm wrong in my assessment, then I'm wrong and I apologize for assuming the worst. But SO FAR this is what I'm seeing and it's really ticking me off. If you hate fat people and don't want to get fattie cooties, just say so. The big act of opposing Taubes in the name of saving science or whatever is getting really old. Particularly when I can see plain as day that so many of you haven't even read him. Same thing they used to do to Atkins--who was not right all the time either, but often enough that he saved lives. He didn't treat us fatties like lepers. He helped us. Can you?

(I don't mean I need to be rescued or have my hand held. I mean it's overweight, not a loss of 100 IQ points, and you can talk to me like I'm regular folks and quit acting like I"m harshing your Paleo purity. Thanks in advance, et cetera. They had fat people in the Paleolithic too, folks--who do you think modeled for the Venus figurines?)

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on August 10, 2011
at 10:59 AM

I don't know why people think it's personal when people are highly skeptical of a diet that claims to solve obesity and clearly does not. Maybe low-carbers should stop promoting it as a weight-loss diet and then people wouldn't be so skeptical?

21e5c600b326f11be546a08fafafdb1c

(0)

on August 10, 2011
at 01:25 PM

So on the one side we have science and years of research, on the other side we have conspiracy theories. I wonder who might be closer to the truth.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on August 10, 2011
at 01:17 PM

That political view is what incensed so many. Obesity is a brain disease controlled by epigenetics affected by the food supply which is altered by politics and personal choice. Reward is a player but not a dominant player

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on August 10, 2011
at 01:09 PM

@melissa but if it isn't a weight loss diet, then what is it's purpose other than esoteric but very effective ketogenic treatments for certain ailments. there is a role for low carb in fighting obesity but low carb isn't the destination, it's a tool that is very effectively used to get the metabolic pathways repaired.

21e5c600b326f11be546a08fafafdb1c

(0)

on August 10, 2011
at 01:25 PM

Why do people always reduce the entire debate to obesity? Too many carbohydrates cause a whole host of other problems.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on August 10, 2011
at 11:02 AM

And both Taubes and Taubes-skeptics like myself have emphasized the role of the industrial-capitalist system in destroying people's health. IMHO Taubes says people got fat by eating too many carbs, which frankly is more rude towards the Native people than our theories, as it insults their ancient diets. Hyperpalatibility folks like I emphasize the role of governments and corporations in engineering food to destroy people.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on August 10, 2011
at 04:18 PM

Ever heard of the No Trues Scotsman fallacy? I've met very overweight zero carbers and successful zero carbers. It doesn't always work.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on August 10, 2011
at 01:19 PM

I don't get this: "Really I think this whole anti-Taubes sentiment is just another way the healthy members of the Paleo community distance themselves from the fatties." Anti-Taubes sentiment recently has been based on his rudeness towards Stephan Guyenet combined with holes in his logic about factors in weight gain. While some internet posters might combine this with anti-fat sentiment, those same posters will combine anti-fat sentiment with a lot of their arguments. The "top" bloggers don't seem to defend high-carb or low-carb with any gusto, and are definitely not ridiculing obese people.

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on August 10, 2011
at 07:45 PM

Wow this answer pissed me off that I just had to respond. No one is hating on the "fatties", as you so nicely put it Dana. Quite the contrary, I saw many of your so called "fatties" mingling with the "skinnies" at AHS and getting along very well. What you don't seem to understand is that "Paleo" wasn't created just for the "fatties"... this movement has grown because it addresses a wide variety of health issues and people of all walks reap the benefits. Low carb does NOT work for everyone in terms of weight and Rose, Zero Carb don't either. All it takes is one look at the ZIOH forums to...

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 10, 2011
at 04:33 PM

Alright, not to perpetuate an unresolvable argument, but really, "It doesn't always work" != "clearly does not solve obesity." If it works for a majority of people who try it -- and two recent one- and two-year studies show it did for the enrollees -- and if the lower the carbs go, the more successful the dieter is (it is called *low* carbing, not *less* carbing), then there's no "No True Scotsman" about it. It doesn't need to work for every last individual in order to be useful for a great many.

0c939bdddc3d8f8ef923ba8a72aeda71

on August 10, 2011
at 07:12 AM

Taubes wasn't even defending a carbcentric hypothesis there, as a bunch of people have mischaracterized. He was questioning SG's ill-thought "food reward: a dominant factor in obesity" thing and the plains Indians and Pima which (I understand) he alluded to are certainly plausible counterexamples insofar as the reward hypothesis is one of the falsifiable versions.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on August 10, 2011
at 01:55 PM

it's effective for SOME, but IMHO low-carb is just one of the tools that successful people use, just lowering carbs is not enough, hence so many overweight LC bloggers/figures

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on August 10, 2011
at 07:51 PM

Gary Taubes hypothesis is not true for everyone. Obviously, this is a crushing realization for him. If he didn't think Stephan's theory was even in the least bit convincing, why would he get in such a fuss about it? Clearly, there are many different mechanisms that go in to obesity, and not one hypothesis is going to cover all of it. Stephans theory explains a great deal and I think hold much more weight than Gary's, especially in the light of the fact that the majority of HG societies were not low carb. Low carb is not for everyone, especially not long term, and may not be necessary for those

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on August 10, 2011
at 07:52 PM

convinced it is. Paleo = low carb for so many, that of course there is a stronger push for people to try a more carb heavy diet because quite frankly, it is much more nutritious than an all meat diet.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 10, 2011
at 08:37 PM

..sick to shit of hearing about how we're doing it wrong, because when we try to add starches back in we fatten again. I don't see us VLCers pushing our way for *everyone,* just suggesting it for those who have issues. OTOH, I've seen a *lot* of PHers telling us VLCers that we *need* more carbs, that's we're "hurting ourselves" (by getting healthier, I suppose), and that if we'd hold the fork differently or something, we'd be able to eat potatoes and rice. Trust us when we say, we can't. But we're not going to take them away from you folks who can. Seriously, you can eat all of 'em ya want.

21e5c600b326f11be546a08fafafdb1c

(0)

on August 10, 2011
at 01:25 PM

It's not rude if it's true and it's never insulting unless you consider every single vegetarian an insult to humanity.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 10, 2011
at 01:30 PM

@Melissa, I don't understand why you think LC clearly does not solve obesity. It's been effective for a great many people, including myself. And the trials run recently on low-carb diets show them to be as effective or more effective than low-fat diets. In what sense does LC not lead to weight loss (outside of a few intransigent cases, but paleo's got a few of those, too).

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 10, 2011
at 02:07 PM

Well, Jimmy's still overweight because he can't/doesn't want to cut carbs low enough. That was really the essence of the fight between the ZCers there and him, if I read it right (maybe others have different perspectives). And CarbSane also insisted on keeping her carbs high. I myself stalled at 190 on VLC, but ZC took me all the way down to normal BMI, and fast, too. Just my opinion, but I think the overweight LC bloggers are the ones who still eat LC frankenfoods. It's why I think if someone needs LC/VLC/ZC, a clean, Paleo approach to it is best.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 10, 2011
at 06:52 PM

Ooo, ooo, just found this post on Dr. Eenfeldt's site. It's a very nice listing of studies showing LC's effectiveness as a weight-loss tool: http://www.dietdoctor.com/weight-loss-time-to-stop-denying-the-science

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 10, 2011
at 07:37 PM

CarbSane, I experienced similar long periods of stalling on VLC (Atkins induction level carbs). After flailing in various directions, I gave ZC a shot, although I didn't think it would work at all. I mean, geez, I went from 300g/day to 20g/day and got stuck; why would dropping from 20g to, say, 2 or 3g, make a difference? But it did, to my utter and complete surprise. But I agree with you; I shouldn't have characterized your carb intake as "high;" I apologize for that. It's "high" relative to mine, is all.

Ef4c5b09fdccf73be575d3a0c267fdd9

(2539)

on August 10, 2011
at 07:48 PM

realize that ZC does not = return to normal weight for everyone. Furthermore, there really aren't even enough people who have come foreward as ZC to show that it even works half the time for restoring a normal BMI as it did for you. Furthermore, there is a strong push for higher carbs and rightfully so, for the ones that can tolerate it, because younger or less metabolically damaged folk come here looking for advice, and the ZC and VLC zealots pedal their diet as the be-all-end-all of Paleos. This gets some people who don't know better into some trouble.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 10, 2011
at 08:39 PM

Sheesh. Typing while excited...

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on August 10, 2011
at 07:23 PM

Excuse me Rose? I insisted on keeping my carbs high? Not true. After two years I tried long stints of VLC and no further weight loss. As a matter of fact when I added carbs I actually lost a little, but 2 lbs is not really significant even for an n=1. I eat no frankenfoods unless you consider the very occasional LC wrap (mostly brans of sorts and cellulose and a bit of - gasp! - grain starch) to be in that category.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 10, 2011
at 08:34 PM

Bill, I know full well that ZC doesn't work for *everyone* who does it, but the people I know of for whom it failed are a small minority. Maybe I'm not seeing the full set, I dunno. But certainly the studies seem to be showing that LC is a winner over low carb/low fat. Regarding the Paleo != LC thing, I *totally get* why higher carb Paleos are pissed off about that. I do, really deeply truly. I'm married to a terminally fit guy, fercryinoutloud, and *I cook rice for him.* Cuz he wants it and can eat it. We're not all carb nazis, yanno. BUT. Those of us who *must go* VLC or lower are really ...

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on August 10, 2011
at 07:25 PM

FWIW, weight loss is not the problem. Jimmy agreed with me on this issue in my interview with him. Folks forget/ignore that in 1999 he lost 170 lbs in 9 months on a VLF diet. Problem was he couldn't maintain it. He's only faring better, IMO, because he tied his livelihood to weight loss with his LLVLC brand. But he looks like he's gained back to his 2010 LLVLC cruise weight or close.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on August 11, 2011
at 10:30 PM

Thank you Dana, for saying what needed to be said

4
98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

on August 09, 2011
at 11:38 PM

Best synopsis with a photo of the actual event

p.s This guy, the Diet Doctor, was awesome! He was a last minute fill-in for someone else but had an excellent presentation and was a very skilled speaker. Plus he's all about LC so he's my people.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on August 10, 2011
at 05:19 PM

Make that Scandinavian

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on August 09, 2011
at 11:50 PM

all the Swedish people were so hot...

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on August 10, 2011
at 10:18 PM

Dr. Eenfeldt's presentation was terrific; he's a fab speaker! I'm also pretty impressed with his fair representation of the "incident." Tho I had to take issue with his take on implication of the bland liquid diet in Stephan's presentation ;).

4
98a7ca2621246f4ceee203902fe9685e

on August 08, 2011
at 11:19 PM

Being in the audience: at the end of the day, GT's comment on Stephan's presentation just came across really poorly. It really made him look like he had a bad attitude. Differences of opinion are fine but do it in a civil, non-humiliating way. Everyone is eager to learn and grow. That's the whole point of the conference. We are never going to learn unless we challenge each other. But again, don't be rude in the process. I admire GT but the delivery style of his comment was unjust.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on August 10, 2011
at 07:28 PM

I just watched the video and it wasn't as bad as anticipated. But did you hear the gasps? I think that "you had to be there moment" is key. Awesome response Stephan!

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on August 10, 2011
at 08:52 PM

Yeah, I think the problem for the folks who weren't there is they had lots of time to imagine how this interchange might have gone, and the reality just didn't measure up. Those of us who were there just weren't expecting it, so it was perhaps a bigger shock for us.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on August 10, 2011
at 09:05 PM

Beth, that's a sensible explanation. Also, I think Aravind's point about cutting in line, although made in jest, is something we don't get to see in the vid that's online right now. That could qualify as arrogant behavior, but it's not visible to us non-attendees.

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