3

votes

What do you think about fur?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created January 08, 2012 at 10:02 AM

I ask because my vegan cousin keeps showing me nasty horrific pictures/videos of live animals being skinned for their fur and though I know she is pushy and annoying it makes me want to not wear fur. Opinions on this yourselves?

246ebf68e35743f62e5e187891b9cba0

(21420)

on January 09, 2012
at 12:15 AM

Sara, my wild hides I harvest myself and take to tanners, and usually the local tanners (or taxidermists) tend to have an ample supply of hides. I regret to say much of my bovine and rabbit hides are sourced from Tandy Leather - which come from Mexico, beyond that I have no clue.

6b8d12fc3e43179f9ae1765a4d1a9dc2

(5914)

on January 08, 2012
at 10:44 PM

@Wisper - that is a good point, however if the animal was killed for its skin and then the meat left to rot, that would be a waste. Alternatively, if the skin from an animal that was to be eaten could be used for fur, instead of being thrown out, then that is great, IMO.

19acef0aed67ef8dc1118d8e74edb349

(2954)

on January 08, 2012
at 09:45 PM

Also, I'm pretty sure, from being around vegans, that this cousin in particular doesn't oppose fur ONLY when animals are mistreated, I'm pretty damn sure that s/he opposes fur regardless if ethically umm.. skinned. You can't argue with these vegans. Their brain has been rotted by tofurkey.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on January 08, 2012
at 09:44 PM

Since this is an ethics question and not a paleo lifestyle/diet hacking question, it's outside the scope of this site and I'm closing it.

19acef0aed67ef8dc1118d8e74edb349

(2954)

on January 08, 2012
at 09:37 PM

(sarcasm) Hey thhq, I hate when those cats come sleep on my plants and ruin my garden! And deer? Makes me wish I had a hunting license. Such nasty horrific creatures! || Anyway, about skinning while the animal is still alive... what's that got to do with Paleo? .... -stares at you-

19acef0aed67ef8dc1118d8e74edb349

(2954)

on January 08, 2012
at 09:37 PM

(sarcasm) Hey thhq, I hate when those cats come sleep on my plants and ruin my garden! And deer? Makes me wish I had a hunting license. Such nasty horrific creatures? || Anyway, about skinning while the animal is still alive... what's that got to do with Paleo? .... -stares at you-

7841848bd0c27c64353c583fb7971242

(7275)

on January 08, 2012
at 08:29 PM

Yeah, I'm sick of seeing coats or slippers lined with fur on the outside, but only for decoration.

7841848bd0c27c64353c583fb7971242

(7275)

on January 08, 2012
at 08:28 PM

Joshua, where do you source your various leathers? What are some good tactics to find them?

Ca2c940a1947e6200883908592956680

(8574)

on January 08, 2012
at 08:23 PM

@thhq "I consider it immoral to use synthetic products made in sweatshops 5000 miles away from here." Brilliant!

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on January 08, 2012
at 08:16 PM

Very well said!

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on January 08, 2012
at 05:46 PM

That is sick- whoever does that to creatures should be skinned alive themselves.

E7fc768abe673562268fefc529f62d89

(370)

on January 08, 2012
at 03:38 PM

Except it's not a luxury item (fur or leather) for people who live in very cold climates. Hell, even in Nebraska when I was a vegetarian I was thankful every day the wind chill was -20 for my leather jacket.

E7fc768abe673562268fefc529f62d89

(370)

on January 08, 2012
at 03:37 PM

Same people who bring hidden cameras into battery hen houses and pig farms... animal rights activists. I've seen videos of it (didn't know it was coming) and it's pretty scarring.

E7fc768abe673562268fefc529f62d89

(370)

on January 08, 2012
at 03:35 PM

I think the big difference is skinning the animals while they're still alive (which is pretty horrific, imo), versus killing the animal FIRST and then butchering/skinning it.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on January 08, 2012
at 03:08 PM

You have to go where the hunters are and find the cottage industries. There's a lot in MT, OR, WA, and especially AK. I picked up some really nice lined leather mittens from a roadside craftsman near Ottawa ON, and I expect you could find same upstate NY, NH, VT and ME. Anyplace you go where the deer and moose wander freely.

6426d61a13689f8f651164b10f121d64

(11488)

on January 08, 2012
at 02:52 PM

This has nothing to do with your question, but I have never understood "eco-vandals" who throw paint on fur coats. Vandalized furs are often replaced, so even more animals will die as a result. It takes 11 to 18 foxes, 35 to 55 minks, or 100 chinchillas to make (or replace) 1 fur coat ( http://www.ehow.com/about_5367245_animals-used-make-fur-coats.html ).

7841848bd0c27c64353c583fb7971242

(7275)

on January 08, 2012
at 02:14 PM

@thhq: That's exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. How did you find out about it? Hopefully I can find something similar in New England.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on January 08, 2012
at 01:21 PM

The deerskin slippers and gloves I wear came from hide collection barrels where hunters deposited them. They were harvested and made within 100 miles of where I live. I consider it immoral to use synthetic products made in sweatshops 5000 miles away from here.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on January 08, 2012
at 01:14 PM

Yeah. Another grim reaper of vegetation. No feeeelings.

A7768b6c6be7f5d6acc76e5efa66464c

on January 08, 2012
at 01:09 PM

@Wisper: morality is utterly subjective, and thus, no sort of morality really stands much scrutiny. My scrutiny of your morals will be based on my own, possibly different morals. In my case, I do not accept that it's immoral for humans--an animal--to kill other animals, be it for food or clothing. BUT, I do accept that it's immoral to abuse, torture, raise inhumanely, inhumanely slaughter, or to kill animals for sport. Ironicly, turning to a diet that suggests eating more animal foods than ever has raised my consciousness to the treatment of animals, and shifted my behavior accordingly.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on January 08, 2012
at 01:02 PM

So show her some pictures of Carrie Nation and Hyacinth Bucket. What part of busybody pest doesn't she get?

724ba4f39f7bbea7f74b45c0a79615f2

(1968)

on January 08, 2012
at 12:36 PM

Well, I think a lot of ex-vegans and ex-vegetarians here would disagree with you about whether some people need to kill animals for food, or at least for health. Fur contributes to neither of those.

9f54852ea376e8e416356f547611e052

(2957)

on January 08, 2012
at 12:03 PM

Why do you bother with her arguments? Most vegan arguments are as valid as whatever some (American) Christians are pushing as their alternative to evolution.

9f54852ea376e8e416356f547611e052

(2957)

on January 08, 2012
at 12:00 PM

How is it better that the animal is going to be eaten, rather than being used for its fur, only? In both cases, they are raised and killed for human consumption. Although we are on a paleo board, there are millions of vegetarians and even vegans who do survive on those diets, so we don't NEED to kill animals for food. Clearly the moral distinction between killing animals for fur and food doesn't stand closer scrutiny.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on January 08, 2012
at 10:53 AM

The fur industry does seem pretty horrific at times (so do the eggs and meat industries to be honest). I don't own any item of clothing that has fur on it but when I was a kid in the early 70's I had one of those "parkas" with a fur trim on the hood. I don't live in a cold climate so I really have no need for fur but maybe in some areas it is ideal, so who am I to criticize?

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13 Answers

7
A7768b6c6be7f5d6acc76e5efa66464c

on January 08, 2012
at 01:27 PM

I think your cousin has her heart in the right place, and I consider exposing the horrors of any industry that profits from the torture and abuse of animals a legitimate tactic for conciousness-raising. If not for such revelations, I'd never have known of the horrors of the conventional meat/poultry/egg industries, and thus, would not necessarily have taken steps to reduce or eliminate my participation in them (as a consumer). And paleo has encouraged me to seek out better alternatives. I can appreciate the value of her point of view, despite its likely inconsistencies.

If you like to wear fur, perhaps this information will lead you to seek out humane sources--if any exist. If they don't, perhaps you will conclude you don't want to participate. Or not. Either way, you're thinking about it, which supports the value of your cousin's attempts at consciousness-raising.

5
6b8d12fc3e43179f9ae1765a4d1a9dc2

(5914)

on January 08, 2012
at 10:52 AM

if it was from an animal that was going to be killed for food i wouldnt have a problem with it. if as you say it was a live animal skinned for the fur then thats horrible.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on January 08, 2012
at 03:08 PM

You have to go where the hunters are and find the cottage industries. There's a lot in MT, OR, WA, and especially AK. I picked up some really nice lined leather mittens from a roadside craftsman near Ottawa ON, and I expect you could find same upstate NY, NH, VT and ME. Anyplace you go where the deer and moose wander freely.

7841848bd0c27c64353c583fb7971242

(7275)

on January 08, 2012
at 02:14 PM

@thhq: That's exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. How did you find out about it? Hopefully I can find something similar in New England.

724ba4f39f7bbea7f74b45c0a79615f2

(1968)

on January 08, 2012
at 12:36 PM

Well, I think a lot of ex-vegans and ex-vegetarians here would disagree with you about whether some people need to kill animals for food, or at least for health. Fur contributes to neither of those.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on January 08, 2012
at 01:21 PM

The deerskin slippers and gloves I wear came from hide collection barrels where hunters deposited them. They were harvested and made within 100 miles of where I live. I consider it immoral to use synthetic products made in sweatshops 5000 miles away from here.

6b8d12fc3e43179f9ae1765a4d1a9dc2

(5914)

on January 08, 2012
at 10:44 PM

@Wisper - that is a good point, however if the animal was killed for its skin and then the meat left to rot, that would be a waste. Alternatively, if the skin from an animal that was to be eaten could be used for fur, instead of being thrown out, then that is great, IMO.

A7768b6c6be7f5d6acc76e5efa66464c

on January 08, 2012
at 01:09 PM

@Wisper: morality is utterly subjective, and thus, no sort of morality really stands much scrutiny. My scrutiny of your morals will be based on my own, possibly different morals. In my case, I do not accept that it's immoral for humans--an animal--to kill other animals, be it for food or clothing. BUT, I do accept that it's immoral to abuse, torture, raise inhumanely, inhumanely slaughter, or to kill animals for sport. Ironicly, turning to a diet that suggests eating more animal foods than ever has raised my consciousness to the treatment of animals, and shifted my behavior accordingly.

9f54852ea376e8e416356f547611e052

(2957)

on January 08, 2012
at 12:00 PM

How is it better that the animal is going to be eaten, rather than being used for its fur, only? In both cases, they are raised and killed for human consumption. Although we are on a paleo board, there are millions of vegetarians and even vegans who do survive on those diets, so we don't NEED to kill animals for food. Clearly the moral distinction between killing animals for fur and food doesn't stand closer scrutiny.

Ca2c940a1947e6200883908592956680

(8574)

on January 08, 2012
at 08:23 PM

@thhq "I consider it immoral to use synthetic products made in sweatshops 5000 miles away from here." Brilliant!

4
E7fc768abe673562268fefc529f62d89

on January 08, 2012
at 03:41 PM

I think it's important to source your fur/leather the way you source your food. Do research, and if at all possible, get it from local sources (though I admit it will probably be more difficult than finding local grassfed beef... Kind of depends on the farm's process and whether you can get the hide to a tanner in a short enough time). If you can find a company that ensures their animals are actually dead before they start skinning them, use them and spread the word.

4
246ebf68e35743f62e5e187891b9cba0

(21420)

on January 08, 2012
at 03:37 PM

I do leatherwork as a hobby (making sporrans (pouches) for kilt-wear) and I have used rabbit and bovine fur-on hides, as well as wild pig skin, deer, and bison/bovine fur-less hides. Kate MacPherson (popular sporran maker) in Scotland uses roadkill to create some absolutely fantastic fur-on sporrans.

I have no qualms about this.

If you wear leather or eat meat, should you really judge the use of fur?

I also believe in "snout to spout" utilization of animals, that includes organ meats and even making use of the horns, hide, bones, as much as possible.

I'm pretty sure if an animal died to give you either fur or sustenance, then it makes sense to use every part of that animal, fur included.

On the other hand, commercial fur usually sells off the skinless carcass for animal feed or fertilizer and I'm not down with that. If I ever got the chance at getting my hands on one of the popular sporran hides (beaver, badger, pine marten) I would probably ensure the animal died of natural causes or was eaten (in case of beaver, I don't think anyone actually eats badger or marten).

This is not solely thinking of animal rights as much as it is practicality... it just makes sense to make use of as much animal as you can, from a financial and sustainability standpoint.

7841848bd0c27c64353c583fb7971242

(7275)

on January 08, 2012
at 08:28 PM

Joshua, where do you source your various leathers? What are some good tactics to find them?

246ebf68e35743f62e5e187891b9cba0

(21420)

on January 09, 2012
at 12:15 AM

Sara, my wild hides I harvest myself and take to tanners, and usually the local tanners (or taxidermists) tend to have an ample supply of hides. I regret to say much of my bovine and rabbit hides are sourced from Tandy Leather - which come from Mexico, beyond that I have no clue.

3
E42367abfb8229d2f7126f4825380e2e

on January 08, 2012
at 08:12 PM

it is really simple...

A: fur bearing animals are sought for their fur and are farm raised and/or managed if it weren't for their fur they would be as desirable as a the lowly Weasel... Coyote population around these parts fluctuate wildly based on fur prices... and the population suffers when there is no demand. warm weather and low demand in European and Russian markets have left the Coyote populations high and they are all Mangy and sick as a result... we still hunt them however to help keep their numbers lower so their numbers are healthier

B: livestock and other food animals are raised for food... can't remember the last time I saw a wild cow roaming around and I live in the middle of the Nebraska Sandhills, aka Cow Country... were there no market for Beef or whatever else... those animals would basically not exist as they do today... if there were no demand for Beef we wouldn't raise as much corn in these parts either...

C: it boils down to this... to each their own. these meat and fur animals exist solely for human use. and we as human being are obligated to treat all life with respect, even if you are going kill and eat it.

skinning a live animal? who would do that? I've hunted and fished my whole life and that is just wrong. but people are and can be very evil

it would be great if we put laws into effect to stop the big commercial farms and livestock factories. until then...

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on January 08, 2012
at 08:16 PM

Very well said!

3
19acef0aed67ef8dc1118d8e74edb349

(2954)

on January 08, 2012
at 10:55 AM

It's part of the animal. If you eat meat, then it's no different to make use of the leather.

I've skinned a bunch of animals, it's not "nasty horrific", not any more than butchering. People don't butcher or use animal leather because they are "nasty horrific" people. They do it because it's there to be used. You can do the same with vegetation, just because someone picks up a flower or some swiss chard, that doesn't make them a nasty horrific person. Now if you're just going to be a jerk and stomp on every flower just for the joy of killing it... different story.

Tell your friend that she shouldn't use the telephone, drive a car, or go on airplane flights, if she hates "torturing" animals so much. Animal products are used for those 3 things too.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on January 08, 2012
at 01:14 PM

Yeah. Another grim reaper of vegetation. No feeeelings.

19acef0aed67ef8dc1118d8e74edb349

(2954)

on January 08, 2012
at 09:37 PM

(sarcasm) Hey thhq, I hate when those cats come sleep on my plants and ruin my garden! And deer? Makes me wish I had a hunting license. Such nasty horrific creatures! || Anyway, about skinning while the animal is still alive... what's that got to do with Paleo? .... -stares at you-

19acef0aed67ef8dc1118d8e74edb349

(2954)

on January 08, 2012
at 09:45 PM

Also, I'm pretty sure, from being around vegans, that this cousin in particular doesn't oppose fur ONLY when animals are mistreated, I'm pretty damn sure that s/he opposes fur regardless if ethically umm.. skinned. You can't argue with these vegans. Their brain has been rotted by tofurkey.

19acef0aed67ef8dc1118d8e74edb349

(2954)

on January 08, 2012
at 09:37 PM

(sarcasm) Hey thhq, I hate when those cats come sleep on my plants and ruin my garden! And deer? Makes me wish I had a hunting license. Such nasty horrific creatures? || Anyway, about skinning while the animal is still alive... what's that got to do with Paleo? .... -stares at you-

E7fc768abe673562268fefc529f62d89

(370)

on January 08, 2012
at 03:35 PM

I think the big difference is skinning the animals while they're still alive (which is pretty horrific, imo), versus killing the animal FIRST and then butchering/skinning it.

2
Fb67dc30cead043d1d13ea503a3044dc

(3280)

on January 08, 2012
at 08:08 PM

Fur for pure decoration = unnecessary, so no; fur for good purpose (e.g., you live in a damn cold climate and work or spend time outside) = useful, so yes.

I was once snowed in up north, caught in a car, where I was damn glad I had another critter's coat to keep me alive. But I never wear it for luxury purposes; the industry is not gentle to the animals.

7841848bd0c27c64353c583fb7971242

(7275)

on January 08, 2012
at 08:29 PM

Yeah, I'm sick of seeing coats or slippers lined with fur on the outside, but only for decoration.

2
Medium avatar

(10611)

on January 08, 2012
at 01:12 PM

I'm not picky about what I wear to keep warm, but I prefer animal products whenever possible because they're natural and local. What would Grok wear? Certainly nothing derived from petroleum.

1
7e1433afbb06c318c4d90860d493c49d

(5959)

on January 08, 2012
at 06:47 PM

I think fur is great. My wife has a couple fur coats, and last year I bought a cashmere coat with a fur lined and trimmed hood. That hood is better than anything else for keeping warm in a cold Midwest winter.

1
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on January 08, 2012
at 01:59 PM

In the normal course of events an animal would be dead before it was skinned. Who was the creepy photographer that filmed the video?

E7fc768abe673562268fefc529f62d89

(370)

on January 08, 2012
at 03:37 PM

Same people who bring hidden cameras into battery hen houses and pig farms... animal rights activists. I've seen videos of it (didn't know it was coming) and it's pretty scarring.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on January 08, 2012
at 05:46 PM

That is sick- whoever does that to creatures should be skinned alive themselves.

1
Ef9f83cb4e1826261a44c173f733789e

on January 08, 2012
at 12:56 PM

Other than fur being tacky as [email protected]#$, I have no problem with domesticated animals being used for it. That said though, I would opt for cowhide or pigskin products because I don't eat chinchilla, etc.

0
B4e1fa6a8cf43d2b69d97a99dfca262c

(10255)

on January 08, 2012
at 09:39 PM

i once saw a video of land being deforested for planting of crops. the animals that were killed by the machinery or the resultant slow death due to loss of habitat suffered for our need for soya beans/corn.

humans negatively impact other species. none of us are innocent.

0
8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on January 08, 2012
at 02:47 PM

If it bothers you, just don't wear fur. Fur as a luxury item for people who didn't live in very cold climates is pretty silly.

E7fc768abe673562268fefc529f62d89

(370)

on January 08, 2012
at 03:38 PM

Except it's not a luxury item (fur or leather) for people who live in very cold climates. Hell, even in Nebraska when I was a vegetarian I was thankful every day the wind chill was -20 for my leather jacket.

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