21

votes

Do you guys like the way that Paleo is changing?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created August 10, 2012 at 3:23 AM

I have been well within the " Paleosphere " for quite a while. I have noticed many things coming into play that have intrigued me. Paleo is changing, it's the most simple way I can put it.

It seems Primal/Paleo used to be all about eating so much fat, restricting carbs to VERY low levels and now the approach is becoming a bit different. We are all realizing that eating just meat and fat isn't the best for everyone, especially active people with healthy metabolisms. Also that all carbs ARE NOT EVIL. Fruit is a great source of fuel, as are sweet potatoes and even some wild rice is fine.

You don't need to be in ketosis in order to be "Fat-adapted." Doing carb refeeds, adding in carbs may even be beneficial and lowering fat intake isn't all that bad.

Basically, the point I'm trying to make is that Paleo is more of a "Real foods diet."

We all know that avoiding trans-fats, vegetable oils, nutritionally deficient white bread/pastas, and passing on the soda are great things for our health. We also need to realize that a whole foods diet based around fresh local foods that are high in nutrients, even if it may include some raw dairy, fruit and even some plant based meals are HELPING us. Not hurting us. People have gone far enough to say that Low-carb diets, over long periods of time are nothing but detrimental to health. With that statement I can agree!

So go ahead add in some carbs. Experiment with eating delicious ripe fruit. Lower your fat intake to see how you perform. Let loose and have a cheat day. Go out with your friends and enjoy a nice beer and some junk food. It won't kill you!

Question is, do you share similar views on how Paleo may be changing. Do you agree with these views? This is a discussion I've wanted to happen for a while now.

2436f4e6d010656b346629a77e9599dd

(270)

on October 22, 2012
at 04:16 AM

I think it's awesome that you've been able to pinpoint so clearly what makes you feel good and what doesn't! I'm still working on that myself. So far, all I can tell is that all fast food all the time makes me feel gross and lots of protein seems to help me feel good. But I imagine I'll be able to refine as I go. :)

A7768b6c6be7f5d6acc76e5efa66464c

on August 18, 2012
at 12:06 AM

Also, when I said "better articulated," my intention was to indicate that I hadn't seen the question, and didn't have enough information to judge. We'll never know, since you haven't presented us with any examples, so all we can do is talk around it. You might truly have been an utter victim of moderator caprice. Such is the hazard of participating here. We knew this from the day we signed up.

A7768b6c6be7f5d6acc76e5efa66464c

on August 18, 2012
at 12:05 AM

But this isn't a venue for free speech. We know when we join that we can be edited, deleted, and banned. What's free about that?

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on August 14, 2012
at 09:07 PM

No I didn't want to insult you at all! Sorry if that came out wrong! Yes it's a rat study, and a mice study, but they are interesting nonetheless. I think the real problem is the PUFA, the lack of nutrients, the high phosphorus intake, the low food quality (impossible to find good milk here), ... Again, sorry if that came out wrong. I wanted to edit my comment to edit it out but that isn't possible :).

7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on August 14, 2012
at 03:32 PM

Since I have blood sugar issues, I want to stay in ketosis, and I find I have to engage in calorie counting here too- this time to make sure I am eating enough calories. This is where Ben's story breaks down; carbs definitely ramp up the appetite. Make use of all approaches available (as long as they aren't contradictory) rather than relying on these propagandist statements (i.e. a calorie is a calorie or, all calories aren't created equal, or whatever else.)

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 14, 2012
at 10:09 AM

It's very difficult to reconcile paleo with diets abundant in carbs irrespective of activity - that degree of carb intake is simply unpaleolistic (paleo/unrealistic).

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on August 14, 2012
at 08:17 AM

it is an odd state of reality when the middle class to richest Indians suffer the worst diabetes rate. The poor don't have the Western trained medical docs screwing them up...yet.

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on August 14, 2012
at 08:15 AM

Korion, insult me all you want by comparing me to Jack Kruse. Fine. Doesn't bother me for you to label or name call. I read your studies..the first incriminates O6..we agree. My high fat diet is low O6...High in SAT and Mono. So here we agree again. Your second study is interesting but it is a rat study. I am not a rat. A rat's diet and metabolism are not valid for my health. Perhaps if and when I come back as a rat I will thank you for that. thhq....I see Standard Indian Diet and Standard of care doctors here in India shoving the Indians down a hole of diabetes, heart disease and obesity.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on August 13, 2012
at 02:54 PM

@andre I think the textbook case against veg/vegan is made by V.S.Naipaul in A House for Mr. Biswas, about living in the Caribbean Indian diaspora. It's not a diet book, but the observations of the sickness caused by too many bananas, the general unhealthiness of a high carb/high fat/no meat diet, the high view of milk as necessary for intelligence, and Biswas' love of tinned salmon are unforgettable insights into the damage that the Standard Indian Diet causes.

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on August 13, 2012
at 02:39 PM

The gov definition clearly isn't very useful: their real interest is 'enough carbs to displace the fat we don't want you to eat'. I think there's a sound basis for calling anything <~100-150g objectively low carb and anything <~50g objectively VLC, because of the distinct metabolic effects entailed by these levels (i.e. are ketones produced? are the bodies glucose needs all met by exogenous carbs? etc.). Anything above that is (by extension) moderate->high and it really doesn't matter where you draw *that* boundary (because ex hypothesi all carb needs have been met).

3dc940ac9be21e45cf83207814c8cd46

(544)

on August 13, 2012
at 02:21 PM

"Fat adapted" makes total sense to me. I've been reading Mark's blog for a year now, and although no person is perfect, I continue to read and internalize what he has to share with others.

11b7b7ba720a5cd43c74a0ef99a16adb

(3448)

on August 13, 2012
at 02:01 PM

+1 CD--What is low carb; what is high carb? According to the govt, if less than 50% of your calories come from carbs, then you are low carb. According to paleo, if 20% of your calories come from carbs you are high carb. Statements like " Low-carb diets, over long periods of time are nothing but detrimental to health" must be put in context. Do they mean less than 50% of calories of less than 5% of calories?

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on August 13, 2012
at 01:59 PM

And as you say hypoglycemia is caused by overproduction of insulin, insulinogenic protein like leucine in eggs or chocolate could cause it. And can't those 2 be a part of a high-fat low-carb diet?

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on August 13, 2012
at 01:58 PM

Like Cliff has said it has never been shown that sugar causes diabetes, but it has been shown that PUFAs can cause it. Lots of info at http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/glucose-sucrose-diabetes.shtml too.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on August 13, 2012
at 01:57 PM

Haha you talk like Dr. Kruse. I wasn't saying high fat low carb induces hypoglycemia, only that it did for me http://www.direct-ms.org/pdf/NutritionFats/Harbige%20PUFA%20in%20autoimmunity.pdf http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7667243 (these 2 talk about EFA-deficiency as protective against autoimmune diabetes) http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/002604959590123X http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/51/2/469.short .

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on August 13, 2012
at 01:25 PM

Do you know Mark Sisson? I do. You are rude. I think you have done nothing to enlighten health and nutrition. "Be ashamed to die till you have done something for mankind."

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on August 13, 2012
at 01:22 PM

Korion...Show me the evidence. Hypoglycemia is caused by excess insulin...basic biology. Can you educate me as to how high fat low carb induces hypoglycemia? I will change my mind and follow Ray Peat if you do. Yes..I am deadly serious. I am a Type 1 diabetic. Show me the money! Have you done any of the tests i asked about? If not...you are blind to your own body. Please...take me behind the woodshed. I am always open to the truth., Truth is what works.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on August 13, 2012
at 11:50 AM

Let's also remember. While I eat 150-200g carbs per day, that is only about 10%-15% of my daily calories. Typical SAD is 50%-60%, so according to the rest of the world I am still "Very Low Carb" while according to Paleo I am "Higher Carb".

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on August 13, 2012
at 10:15 AM

*"High fat and low carb does not cause hypoglycemia."* Are you serious? You have a shrine with a jar of butter and a big juicy steak in your house? Jeez, and people blame me for defending Ray Peat.

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on August 13, 2012
at 08:30 AM

High fat and low carb does not cause hypoglycemia. What causes that is overproduction of insulin and leptin. Have you had your insulin or leptin checked? You need a C-Peptide test to see how much insulin you are producing too. Do you check you A1c and your blood sugar? These are great tools available to show you what is happening behind the curtain of belief. Without this knowledge you are only guessing at what is going on in your body. I don't like math...but I can't argue with it.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on August 13, 2012
at 08:10 AM

It may have saved you, it caused hypoglycemia for me, something that went away in a couple of weeks of high-carbing. The thing is, I don't think my diet is necessary to solve hypoglycemia, or even better than yours.

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on August 13, 2012
at 07:31 AM

Korion...I was open to the high carb diet in the 1980s-90s when I worked at the Pritikin Centers. It drove my metabolism thru pre diabetic to Type 2 to Type 1 in 6 years. I have tried it. My basis for advocating a high fat low carb diet comes from the point that we are meant to burn fat as fuel not sugar. "your health is determined by one equation."The proportion of sugar versus fat you burn in your lifetime. The more fat you burn the healthier you will be. The more sugar, the less healthy you will be." Dr. Ron Rosedale. THis saved my life and normalized my sugsr/insulin/leptin.

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on August 13, 2012
at 07:26 AM

I travel thru Europe 7 times per year and while they are not as fat as Americans, we are the fattest, they are exploding with obesity and diabetes and it isn't just the tourists. Talk to Dr. John Briffa. Obesity and diabetes are together the fastest and largest epidemic in human history. I work in India with diabetics. Ehile most of the people are not obese here...they have become number 1 in the world in Diabetes and heart disease in under 10 years. Diet change? Sugar is great and fat is bad...especially ghee and coconut.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on August 12, 2012
at 08:37 PM

Andre, in Europe this is not the case. I have yet to see an obese person cause the last time I saw one was, I don't know, 4-5 months ago? Yet everyone here is starch-loaded. It's sad that you're not open to high-carbing at all, just because you do well with a ketogenic diet.

44349dd8bf3bc226731d2f6bd42e8124

(318)

on August 12, 2012
at 12:51 PM

I'm losing at a very consistent rate and I fully give that to calorie counting. Sure the Paleo lifestyle helps tremendously, makes me feel human again - but by tracking my calories I feel in control. I know what I'm consuming. And I know I'm setting myself up to succeed without wondering, "Why aren't I losing". Keep in mind I have hated to track in the past, but it's a necessary evil if you are serious about losing, IMO.

44349dd8bf3bc226731d2f6bd42e8124

(318)

on August 12, 2012
at 12:47 PM

"For me, the drinking, drugs, junk food and sitting around all day was the painful lifestyle. It was a combination of fleeting bliss and terrible lack. It was like being in love for a minute, and pining for a day and thus being in a state of near perpetual dissatisfaction and discomfort." Well said. I can really relate to this.

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on August 12, 2012
at 09:00 AM

I never said that we lucked into the ability to digest starch. Dont put words or sugar in my mouth. Your logic of "the bulk of humanity" is bullshit. The absolute norm?..if you will look around it is obesity, diabetes etc etc etc. Norm does not appeal to me. You may be sick of hearing that we are all blessed. That is, perhaps because you are sick. I am a ketone burner and I never argue with a glucose burner. Enjoy the rest of your glycated day.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on August 12, 2012
at 07:44 AM

When everyone said fructose is toxic, I thought it'd be a good idea to take it out of my diet. Big mistake though, in the long run.

318374167f4c3bf3ac0f13ce48211c75

(106)

on August 12, 2012
at 03:23 AM

i completely agree!

318374167f4c3bf3ac0f13ce48211c75

(106)

on August 12, 2012
at 03:20 AM

i completely disagree with you. I don't think Paleo has changed at all. Paleo was always about having a healthy fruit and veggie intake. I think it was the people who went Paleo to lose weight purposes that started the whole Paleo is low carb thing.

963322f175cdd4c5f7d52cc372b3a167

(646)

on August 11, 2012
at 10:20 PM

It all amounts to suppression of free speech.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on August 11, 2012
at 09:29 PM

I've been reading a lot of Orwell lately. Before the Thoght Police there was the Spanish Civil War, and a general souring of Orwell's optimistic attitude by the reality of what being a Trotskyite meant in the days of Stalin. What goes on on Paleohacks is minor compared to that.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on August 11, 2012
at 09:23 PM

Talk about your one dimensional diets...

Medium avatar

(10611)

on August 11, 2012
at 09:20 PM

Differentiate on eating meat.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on August 11, 2012
at 09:19 PM

Differentiate on eating meat. Everywhere else paleo know with whole foodism.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on August 11, 2012
at 07:38 PM

Wow, ben, there are lots of studies showing that weight loss is much more complicated : http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/002604959590123X http://www.nature.com/oby/journal/v12/n4/abs/oby200467a.html http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16487915

6498694060d879a7960b35913539b75f

(1307)

on August 11, 2012
at 07:05 PM

Meh. I'm in it for health, and I find that lower carb, high fat keeps me the healthiest. So I don't think I can buy ito such a "one size fits all" statement.

7e1433afbb06c318c4d90860d493c49d

(5959)

on August 11, 2012
at 06:31 PM

"Carbs I can get away with" is very real for some of us. If I eat starch in any form on a regular basis, my appetite is increased to where I eat more calories than are needed, and I gain weight. Fruit does not have that effect, so it's a carb I can get away with. Sure, I could eat starch while counting calories and just live with gnawing hunger, but it's easier to simply eat an ad libitum, moderate carb, no starch diet of real foods that doesn't trigger overeating and weight gain.

C326acd0ae246a39c5685f2ba72e3136

(1631)

on August 11, 2012
at 05:43 PM

I love " Fat burning beasts " You don't have to eat uinder 150 grams of carbs to be a fat burning beast.. I can eat 200 grams of carbs most days and still, whenever I need, hafve the ability to fast for many hours without feeling discomfort and low blood sugar.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on August 11, 2012
at 04:46 PM

fat burning beasts break out in hives if they consume gluten.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on August 11, 2012
at 03:05 PM

@Ben61820- Things have to be gluten free because Mark Sisson uses very good scare tactics ;)

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on August 11, 2012
at 02:49 PM

why does everything have to be free of gluten? There are millions of people who do just fine on gluten

F9638b939a6f85d67f60065677193cad

(4266)

on August 11, 2012
at 02:47 PM

Sorry but having more fruit, more potatoes, more beer and pizza doesn't work well for me. I disagree with your views and your suggestions in your final paragraphs.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on August 11, 2012
at 02:31 PM

Baseload the diet with meat and you're 90% paleo. Separate the fat from the meat and you diverge from ancestral diet.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on August 11, 2012
at 02:25 PM

The high fat/low carb thing has bothered me for a while, because it isn't something our ancestors would have necessarily eaten on a regular basis. It's a more recent development, and gives off a nasty whiff of Atkins. Eat meat for sure. But eat sticks of butter and a pound of bacon????

963322f175cdd4c5f7d52cc372b3a167

(646)

on August 11, 2012
at 06:58 AM

The carbs-are-bad attitude comes directly from the LC people trying to hijack your movement.

C326acd0ae246a39c5685f2ba72e3136

(1631)

on August 11, 2012
at 06:16 AM

Yea I'm with you haha fruit, tubers and even some white rice whe I get sushi.

C326acd0ae246a39c5685f2ba72e3136

(1631)

on August 11, 2012
at 06:15 AM

Dude thanks for the advice.. I'm so with you on that one haha. Being able to just have abbs is awesome! I mean It's more genetic for me. I can stay lean pretty easily with a bit of exercise and have a mad set of abbs. It's building the muscle that is kinda tough. I have to work hard and be progressive each workout to see positive results. I also lose muscle easily.. Sucks being mostly ectomorph :( My brother got the awesome mesomorphic genes lol

963322f175cdd4c5f7d52cc372b3a167

(646)

on August 11, 2012
at 05:32 AM

I've seen raw vegans with more balls than a lot of these 'paleo peeps'. So much for the paleo/testosterone argument... How the PH community - particularly those with an degree of power - handled the Kruse debacle illustrates this perfectly. And WHO decided that 'argumentative and subjective' were bad things? Isn't that what makes for lively debate? Sheesh.

963322f175cdd4c5f7d52cc372b3a167

(646)

on August 11, 2012
at 05:29 AM

Better articulated? With all due respect, I doubt it. A lot of the mods are, for lack of a better word, wimps. There was no compelling reason to delete not just my question - but my entire account. Hard-hitting questions dealing with controversial issues do not amount to 'trolling' (the mods' favorite all-purpose response to things/people they would rather not deal with).

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on August 11, 2012
at 01:51 AM

well..on second thought I can think of just one thing that tastes comparable, but being ripped helps (indirectly) you get it, and it's not food ;)

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on August 11, 2012
at 01:50 AM

Yeah man don't binge. Just eat some real, whole food carbs and you'll not feel so deprived. They're good for you- they help keep you hydrated, they boost insulin sensitivity, and help you feel satisfied. I like to eat fruit (1-2 pieces) post workout and backload the rest of my carbs (starch) for at dinner. Keeps me away from the ice cream, chocolates, and nuts. It is true that nothing tastes as good as being ripped feels. LOL.

C326acd0ae246a39c5685f2ba72e3136

(1631)

on August 11, 2012
at 01:13 AM

Awesome, sounds simple, real and easy to stick too. If I deprive my self of carbs for too long I'll binge on junk food.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on August 11, 2012
at 12:52 AM

Yeah for the most. Every few months I do a couple weeks of really low carbs, but other than that I keep it simple. 3 meals a day- meat, fish, eggs, fruit, vegetables, and tubers/rice.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on August 11, 2012
at 12:50 AM

Yeah, for the most part. Sometimes I go really low carb, but only for a couple weeks every few months. I like to keep it simple- meat, fish, eggs,fruits, vegetables and some starches (sweet potatoes, rice, and potatoes)

C326acd0ae246a39c5685f2ba72e3136

(1631)

on August 10, 2012
at 11:52 PM

Yes, exactly! I have seen a few of your posts. You follow a higher carb, lower fat diet then most paleos, am I right? Your way of eating is much more sensible in my honest opinion.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on August 10, 2012
at 09:34 PM

there is still a reticence to admit that carbs are innocent and have no greater or lesser ability to fatten one than any other macronutrient. Much of the talk is still couched in carb-fear and the misconception that those of us that eat carbs are somehow blessed with this ability when the truth is that the bulk of humanity by default thrive on carbs. People like to blame their overweight on an unlucky disability to handle carbs. That is a fiction.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on August 10, 2012
at 09:30 PM

blessed? Ridiculous. Eating starch with normal blood sugar is the default position of humans. I'm sick of hearing that we are all blessed, that we lucked into being able to digest starch. The bulk of humanity does just this day in and day out. That is the absolute norm and we all are brought into the world this way.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on August 10, 2012
at 09:27 PM

youhave a solid point that without drawing lines you can not differentiate yourself from anything else. This is why I've given up on refering to anythiing as paleo. There is simply no definition. It is pointless to argue beyond that.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on August 10, 2012
at 09:26 PM

terminology like "carbs you can get away with" is the problem. Weight gain or loss is only a function of calories. Every ward study ever done shows this. There has never been a single ward study that showed anything but that.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on August 10, 2012
at 09:24 PM

isn't it just that there is nothing wrong with carbs? Whether one's lifestyle dictates one would benefit from boatloads of them or not is beside the basic issue that there is nothing innately deleterious about carbs, period. Do you see it differently?

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on August 10, 2012
at 09:24 PM

isn't it just that there is nothing wrong with carbs? Whether one's lifestyle dictates one would benefit from boatloads of them or not is beside the basic issue that carbs are fine, period. Do you see it differently?

A7768b6c6be7f5d6acc76e5efa66464c

on August 10, 2012
at 09:09 PM

It might be very likely that this question is better articulated, or whatever. And I wouldn't describe the "mods" as "Orwellian" here. After all, there's a large number of people with sufficient reputation points to close a question (I am one). The community votes, so if you want a question to stand, it should appeal to the community. However, I do find that something akin to "mob action" can close questions when sensibilities are offended, even if the meat of the question is good. Lots of people have edit authority too...why not edit good questions to diminish whatever bothers folks?

E5a6bfd9cdfaef445bbfaa548897738f

(106)

on August 10, 2012
at 07:16 PM

The only problem with fruit is if you are the kind of person that has a mental reaction to spikes in blood sugar, then lows in blood sugar. When my blood sugar spikes, i get a little "manic". When my blood sugar plummets, i get depressed. It has an extreme kind of reaction for me. All those spikes are not good for your insulin production either... Anyway, as i remember reading, they recommend berries to those who are trying to lose weight because they are lower in glycemic index. I think: to each their own.. if they can handle fruit, great. if not, great. Everyone is SOOO very different.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on August 10, 2012
at 07:08 PM

I agree that 30BAD is a bit dangerous, but I think durianrider's diet is pretty good, as he's hitting all the daily nutrients easily with his 6000kcal diet.

C326acd0ae246a39c5685f2ba72e3136

(1631)

on August 10, 2012
at 04:55 PM

Anything is damaging in excess. ANYTHING. Protein, even water. Yes the 30BAD a day crowd are crazy. They severely restrict them self of fat-soluble vitamins and amino acids. Eating fruit on a already healthy Paleo diet is nothing more than beneficial. IF you have a healthy metabolism and are fairly active meaning you can use the sugar up.

C326acd0ae246a39c5685f2ba72e3136

(1631)

on August 10, 2012
at 04:54 PM

The Kitavans showed no signs of mental illness. Don't forget the starches they were eating did have a wide-spectrum of vitamins and minerals. They got saturated fat from coconuts and omega-3 from fish. They have broad faces and nice teeth.

C326acd0ae246a39c5685f2ba72e3136

(1631)

on August 10, 2012
at 04:51 PM

I definitely agree with you for the most part. I don't think low-carb in itself is unhealthy but long-term ketogenic diets don't seem optimal. Your leaving out too much and stressing your body. I'm definitely not advocating sitting around and eating shit all day lol. I'm just saying, maybe once a month a cheat day isn't so bad. Also carbs don't have to be eaten smothered in butter and coconut oil each time you eat them.

4b5be253ac1981c690689cab7e4bf06d

(3043)

on August 10, 2012
at 04:47 PM

Sorry, "normal" being "eating paleo vegetables and fruits," low carb paleo restricts dense carbs and fruits, which do not have to be restricted unless weight loss is a goal (or ketogenic mental health reasons). You have to eat 13 sweet potatoes to get above 300 grams of carbs, so there are not many days you will hit that mark.

E45c5a1c8df73da5e03bb6e7e90f8420

(644)

on August 10, 2012
at 04:33 PM

Totally agree- the strict one way to go approach simply makes no sense. Also, there is no mention of fast-food being okay for anyone in this post. The point is that fresh fruit, healthy carbs, and raw dairy can be wonderful for many people and powerful sources of rich nutrition. Paleo needs to realize this and stop vilifying things that are, in fact, incredibly healthy for most people.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on August 10, 2012
at 04:14 PM

Doesn't mean fructose can't be bad, but I think PUFAs should be attacked, since there is really no diet out there high in PUFAs that works. Lustig promoted his idea by saying the meditteranean diet, the japanese diet and the atkins diet work and they are all low in fructose, but he failed to mention that in most cases they are also low in PUFAs, as atkins recommended meat and dairy (and adding fruit and veggies later on).

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on August 10, 2012
at 04:12 PM

Clearly eating 30 bananas a day isn't a bad thing for many people, considering there's a whole website full of people succeeding on the diet. HFCS isn't the same thing as fructose, don't see why people keep equating those two. I'm not very active and eating a lot of fruit is a good move for me. Not sure how active Denis Minger is, but she still eats load of fruit. Danny Roddy too. As far as I remember Danny Roddy lost weight (20lbs) with orange juice, and Cliff says eating sugared drinks all day long should keep your metabolism up and obesity away.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on August 10, 2012
at 04:09 PM

Oops I just got a bit pissed off when reading *"IMO low carb works for all people as long as they don't overtrain as 'healthy athletes' do."*. I think Lustig is okay with fruit because of the fiber and vitamin C, but at first he was really against all types of fructose, including fruit. Gary Taubes, on the other hand, isn't okay with anything but veggies and limits fruit and nuts as much as possible.

698ef7c5031f5a6b779637aa558f839d

(230)

on August 10, 2012
at 03:29 PM

Like Jamie said lol unless your eating 30 bananas a day I'm sure you will be ok. It also depends on the person. If you aren't very active and your eating a lot of fruit that probably isn't a good move. On the other hand if you crossfit like amaniac awesome source of energy among other post workout food

C00e493393828df34be65ddc25456c7c

(610)

on August 10, 2012
at 01:58 PM

IT still is about eating so much fat for some.

B4e1fa6a8cf43d2b69d97a99dfca262c

(10255)

on August 10, 2012
at 01:33 PM

well said as always

B4e1fa6a8cf43d2b69d97a99dfca262c

(10255)

on August 10, 2012
at 01:27 PM

its answers like this that keep me coming back for a laugh. why must there always be an evil empire at work? i mean beside monsanto. paleo has not changed, just new voices here that believe they are the first to utter these words......

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 10, 2012
at 01:25 PM

Does lustig think that fruit itself is bad, or just table sugar?

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on August 10, 2012
at 01:23 PM

If it was as "subjective and argumentative" as this comment, I'd have voted to close it in a heartbeat. ;)

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 10, 2012
at 01:22 PM

"Everyone just generalizes their own experiences here". Thats pretty much human nature. Cant relate to, or understand what we havent experienced. Always justifying ourselves to others. Etc etc...

6426d61a13689f8f651164b10f121d64

(11488)

on August 10, 2012
at 01:09 PM

"Orwellian mods," "Thought Police"--seriously??? I did not see your previous question, but did it ever occur to you that this question may have been better articulated than yours?

C2450eb7fa11b37473599caf93b461ef

(3225)

on August 10, 2012
at 01:00 PM

Really? Your first post on PH is a plug for your website?

5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

(907)

on August 10, 2012
at 12:56 PM

Fruit phobia was and still is a common trait in paleo circles. Anything can be damaging in excess. Show a little common sense and don't gulp down HFCS sodas every day and you don't have to worry about fructose.

5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

(907)

on August 10, 2012
at 12:52 PM

60% of carbs is as "paleo" as 20% carbs, 70% carbs or 80% carbs. There's no macro concerns when you're eating anything you can possibly find just to survive.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on August 10, 2012
at 12:44 PM

As long as we are willing to follow the science wherever it leads, I'm good with it. Let's forgo the just so stories about eating in congruence with our genetics - nobody really knows what the hell that means. Peter is still arguing the insulin case and I will continue to listen to all sides. It is far from settled. For me, fat is good, carbs are not - but I'm a T2 diabetic. We all are different. However, there are a lot of people in the US headed down the diabetes road - telling them it's okay to eat potatoes and rice will not be helpful to them.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on August 10, 2012
at 11:55 AM

'Excess fructose' is as meaningful as 'everything in moderation' though ...

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on August 10, 2012
at 11:50 AM

Id love to see Lustig drink bottles of soy oil lets see if his fructose theory is still true then. Maybe I should make a petition for that.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on August 10, 2012
at 11:48 AM

Everyone just generalizes their own experiences here :)

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 10, 2012
at 10:45 AM

Fructose IS damaging in _excess_. You wont easily get an excess from fruit though, unless your doing "30 bananas a day", lol. And if you have one already from too much sucrose in your former diet, it can pay to give your liver a rest by sticking to low sugar fruit though.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 10, 2012
at 10:42 AM

All it really shows me, is that eating whole foods, and living in a natural way is healthier than not. I didnt really need any evidence of that anyway.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 10, 2012
at 10:37 AM

I personally am hestitant to draw strong conclusions about diet from these types of anecdotes and "studies".

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 10, 2012
at 10:34 AM

^ All that really means IMO is they werent all autodying in some obvious way. Probably largely because they all get sunlight, exercise and have community, rather than anything do to with what they eat. I mean, if some anthopologist from some HG society visited one of our modern gyms, should he then conclude that the CW diet is healthy? Or that married couples because they are living longer on average than single couples are eating a more optimal diet?

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 10, 2012
at 10:31 AM

"The kitivans eat the bulk of they're calories from carbohydrate and are very healthy. ". I have often heard that, but it leaves me wondering...where do they get there vitamins and minerals. And how healthy were they? Did they get alzhemers in old age, mental illness, or other signs of fat or mineral deficit? People often say "oh the innuit where healthy, or the kitivans or whatever". But how do we know they were optimally healthy? Because of some cursory investigation by some curious anthropologists? How can that possibly compare to the thoroughness of our medical records and system?

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 10, 2012
at 10:09 AM

Hmmm, "normal levels"? The food pyramid suggests 60% of our caloric intake should be carbs. I am not sure, but are you suggesting we eat a plate full of sweet potatoes and yams every night, topped with a sliver of meat and a scattering of vegetables? I am probably reading you wrong, and I am all for moderate carb for all who physically suit it...

3b3a449b6705e9ec8b141d0bd07c1a64

(1489)

on August 10, 2012
at 08:21 AM

I have to agree with Wendy. I have always eaten relatively clean and healthy, and I was always active. Up until 6 months ago I used to have two stand up jobs, since then I have transitioned to a desk job and I can tell you that I have definitely put on weight from being so sedentary all day. Standing up for 8 hours burns up to 800cals more than sitting for 8 hours, that's about two spin classes, or an hour of really fast running...quite a significant impact on your daily cal intake.

3b3a449b6705e9ec8b141d0bd07c1a64

(1489)

on August 10, 2012
at 08:17 AM

Yeah there was a big fuss around fruit/fructose and a lot of people gave up fruit because of this.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on August 10, 2012
at 08:11 AM

Gary Taubes, Dave Asprey and Ray Peat all think it's true that exercise isn't the key to weight loss, and I think the whole notion that fat people are fat because they are lazy is pretty horrible and just makes them feel guilty, likely resulting in eating disorders.

Cfdbf3485f0bac5895f86d74afd9fac0

(98)

on August 10, 2012
at 07:25 AM

"People sit on their butts because they are fat, not vice versa." Sorry, but that is bullshit.

54f75fb54778cfa947990bec1175307a

(665)

on August 10, 2012
at 06:31 AM

IMO low carb works for all people as long as they don't overtrain as "healthy athletes" do. High carb works only for chosen ones with good genetics and life history. Kitavans are exception and they are not even paleo but agricultural society.

4e6baf393fd5f339ae5a92ffbeadc884

(305)

on August 10, 2012
at 06:30 AM

I agree that a broad minded approach is good, but I would like to remind people reading this that not everyone the same. Some junk food won't kill me, but it will land me in severe pain and a trip to the eye hospital for steroid treatment. +1 to eddieosh

54f75fb54778cfa947990bec1175307a

(665)

on August 10, 2012
at 06:10 AM

I'd say it's unlucky genes plus misinformation. I've been overweight since childhood. Michael, did you read "Why we get fat" by Gary Taubes? People sit on their butts because they are fat, not vice versa.

C326acd0ae246a39c5685f2ba72e3136

(1631)

on August 10, 2012
at 05:44 AM

Sorry but it is not fruit's fault you have that issue. It's the years of abuse and SAD eating that has left your metabolism deranged. The kitivans eat the bulk of they're calories from carbohydrate and are very healthy. If people would take care of themselves from birth up they would be able to handle healthy carbs. Some people just didn't have the opportunity to learn about healthy eating early on in they're life.-

963322f175cdd4c5f7d52cc372b3a167

(646)

on August 10, 2012
at 05:32 AM

Jimmy Moore sure did. Five berries doesn't count.

C326acd0ae246a39c5685f2ba72e3136

(1631)

on August 10, 2012
at 05:29 AM

We aren't meant to be sedentary and sit around on our butts all day. We need outdoor activity. It's build into us and a needed part of a healthy lifestyle.

C326acd0ae246a39c5685f2ba72e3136

(1631)

on August 10, 2012
at 05:27 AM

Many people have labeled fructose at toxic??? Like really.. Natural fruit is nothing too be scared of. Lol it's far from toxic..

211d4075d68b24cd0aa7ebfa94262bb9

on August 10, 2012
at 05:24 AM

True but over the years I've seen several people here mention that they never eat any fruit. Haven't seen any in a while but it was not at all uncommon a year or so ago during the insulin scare/fructose scare.

A08b210e4da7e69cd792bddc1f4aae4b

(1031)

on August 10, 2012
at 04:17 AM

I like that Paleo is evidence based and the community is open to learning and adaptation (a good evolutionary trait); that to me is a very healthy sign, it keeps us honest and not afraid to question fundamentals (rather than be fundamentalists).

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22 Answers

30
E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on August 10, 2012
at 08:44 AM

People have gone far enough to say that Low-carb diets, over long periods of time are nothing but detrimental to health. With that statement I can agree!

I think this is an unfortunate turn of the wheel full circle. Every-one can agree that carbs are fine for many people and that more carbs may be optimal for some people, especially those who are physically active. This has never really been in dispute, but it's good for paleo to be non-dogmatic and recognise that in some contexts humans can flourish eating higher carb levels. Nevertheless, one of the other signal contributions of paleo has been to show that you can eat high fat, lower carb diets safely (and that this might actually be useful, most especially for people seeking to lose weight). Your quote reverses the first insight of paleo and is, as a person who's been eating low carb for years, I think inaccurate. Paleo ought to undogmatically grant both things, leaving a lot of room for context and individual variation (while still making useful generalisations like: try cutting carbs for weight loss, try adding carbs if you feel tired and/or are working out).

Medium avatar

(10611)

on August 11, 2012
at 02:31 PM

Baseload the diet with meat and you're 90% paleo. Separate the fat from the meat and you diverge from ancestral diet.

B4e1fa6a8cf43d2b69d97a99dfca262c

(10255)

on August 10, 2012
at 01:33 PM

well said as always

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on August 13, 2012
at 11:50 AM

Let's also remember. While I eat 150-200g carbs per day, that is only about 10%-15% of my daily calories. Typical SAD is 50%-60%, so according to the rest of the world I am still "Very Low Carb" while according to Paleo I am "Higher Carb".

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 14, 2012
at 10:09 AM

It's very difficult to reconcile paleo with diets abundant in carbs irrespective of activity - that degree of carb intake is simply unpaleolistic (paleo/unrealistic).

11b7b7ba720a5cd43c74a0ef99a16adb

(3448)

on August 13, 2012
at 02:01 PM

+1 CD--What is low carb; what is high carb? According to the govt, if less than 50% of your calories come from carbs, then you are low carb. According to paleo, if 20% of your calories come from carbs you are high carb. Statements like " Low-carb diets, over long periods of time are nothing but detrimental to health" must be put in context. Do they mean less than 50% of calories of less than 5% of calories?

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on August 13, 2012
at 02:39 PM

The gov definition clearly isn't very useful: their real interest is 'enough carbs to displace the fat we don't want you to eat'. I think there's a sound basis for calling anything <~100-150g objectively low carb and anything <~50g objectively VLC, because of the distinct metabolic effects entailed by these levels (i.e. are ketones produced? are the bodies glucose needs all met by exogenous carbs? etc.). Anything above that is (by extension) moderate->high and it really doesn't matter where you draw *that* boundary (because ex hypothesi all carb needs have been met).

19
4b5be253ac1981c690689cab7e4bf06d

(3043)

on August 10, 2012
at 05:33 AM

I think there has been a switch from "Paleo to lose weight" to "Paleo for optimal health." In the "lose weight" categories, you see the lower carb, no fruit, lots of fat side of thing. But, in the "optimal health" side, you see that if everything is healthy, then there is no reason to restrict carbs to lower than normal levels.

It also recognizes that "weight" isnt really a good marker, but that lots of other factors, like gut health, food toxins, and lifestyle factors, make a difference in the health of individuals.

But, as there is no one "Paleo" diet, I dont see this as a trend in either direction.

5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

(907)

on August 10, 2012
at 12:52 PM

60% of carbs is as "paleo" as 20% carbs, 70% carbs or 80% carbs. There's no macro concerns when you're eating anything you can possibly find just to survive.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 10, 2012
at 10:09 AM

Hmmm, "normal levels"? The food pyramid suggests 60% of our caloric intake should be carbs. I am not sure, but are you suggesting we eat a plate full of sweet potatoes and yams every night, topped with a sliver of meat and a scattering of vegetables? I am probably reading you wrong, and I am all for moderate carb for all who physically suit it...

318374167f4c3bf3ac0f13ce48211c75

(106)

on August 12, 2012
at 03:23 AM

i completely agree!

4b5be253ac1981c690689cab7e4bf06d

(3043)

on August 10, 2012
at 04:47 PM

Sorry, "normal" being "eating paleo vegetables and fruits," low carb paleo restricts dense carbs and fruits, which do not have to be restricted unless weight loss is a goal (or ketogenic mental health reasons). You have to eat 13 sweet potatoes to get above 300 grams of carbs, so there are not many days you will hit that mark.

6498694060d879a7960b35913539b75f

(1307)

on August 11, 2012
at 07:05 PM

Meh. I'm in it for health, and I find that lower carb, high fat keeps me the healthiest. So I don't think I can buy ito such a "one size fits all" statement.

16
698ef7c5031f5a6b779637aa558f839d

(230)

on August 10, 2012
at 04:03 AM

No one ever said you couldn't eat fruit on paleo

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on August 10, 2012
at 11:55 AM

'Excess fructose' is as meaningful as 'everything in moderation' though ...

211d4075d68b24cd0aa7ebfa94262bb9

on August 10, 2012
at 05:24 AM

True but over the years I've seen several people here mention that they never eat any fruit. Haven't seen any in a while but it was not at all uncommon a year or so ago during the insulin scare/fructose scare.

963322f175cdd4c5f7d52cc372b3a167

(646)

on August 10, 2012
at 05:32 AM

Jimmy Moore sure did. Five berries doesn't count.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 10, 2012
at 10:45 AM

Fructose IS damaging in _excess_. You wont easily get an excess from fruit though, unless your doing "30 bananas a day", lol. And if you have one already from too much sucrose in your former diet, it can pay to give your liver a rest by sticking to low sugar fruit though.

C326acd0ae246a39c5685f2ba72e3136

(1631)

on August 10, 2012
at 04:55 PM

Anything is damaging in excess. ANYTHING. Protein, even water. Yes the 30BAD a day crowd are crazy. They severely restrict them self of fat-soluble vitamins and amino acids. Eating fruit on a already healthy Paleo diet is nothing more than beneficial. IF you have a healthy metabolism and are fairly active meaning you can use the sugar up.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on August 10, 2012
at 04:12 PM

Clearly eating 30 bananas a day isn't a bad thing for many people, considering there's a whole website full of people succeeding on the diet. HFCS isn't the same thing as fructose, don't see why people keep equating those two. I'm not very active and eating a lot of fruit is a good move for me. Not sure how active Denis Minger is, but she still eats load of fruit. Danny Roddy too. As far as I remember Danny Roddy lost weight (20lbs) with orange juice, and Cliff says eating sugared drinks all day long should keep your metabolism up and obesity away.

C326acd0ae246a39c5685f2ba72e3136

(1631)

on August 10, 2012
at 05:27 AM

Many people have labeled fructose at toxic??? Like really.. Natural fruit is nothing too be scared of. Lol it's far from toxic..

5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

(907)

on August 10, 2012
at 12:56 PM

Fruit phobia was and still is a common trait in paleo circles. Anything can be damaging in excess. Show a little common sense and don't gulp down HFCS sodas every day and you don't have to worry about fructose.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on August 10, 2012
at 07:08 PM

I agree that 30BAD is a bit dangerous, but I think durianrider's diet is pretty good, as he's hitting all the daily nutrients easily with his 6000kcal diet.

698ef7c5031f5a6b779637aa558f839d

(230)

on August 10, 2012
at 03:29 PM

Like Jamie said lol unless your eating 30 bananas a day I'm sure you will be ok. It also depends on the person. If you aren't very active and your eating a lot of fruit that probably isn't a good move. On the other hand if you crossfit like amaniac awesome source of energy among other post workout food

3b3a449b6705e9ec8b141d0bd07c1a64

(1489)

on August 10, 2012
at 08:17 AM

Yeah there was a big fuss around fruit/fructose and a lot of people gave up fruit because of this.

E5a6bfd9cdfaef445bbfaa548897738f

(106)

on August 10, 2012
at 07:16 PM

The only problem with fruit is if you are the kind of person that has a mental reaction to spikes in blood sugar, then lows in blood sugar. When my blood sugar spikes, i get a little "manic". When my blood sugar plummets, i get depressed. It has an extreme kind of reaction for me. All those spikes are not good for your insulin production either... Anyway, as i remember reading, they recommend berries to those who are trying to lose weight because they are lower in glycemic index. I think: to each their own.. if they can handle fruit, great. if not, great. Everyone is SOOO very different.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on August 10, 2012
at 04:14 PM

Doesn't mean fructose can't be bad, but I think PUFAs should be attacked, since there is really no diet out there high in PUFAs that works. Lustig promoted his idea by saying the meditteranean diet, the japanese diet and the atkins diet work and they are all low in fructose, but he failed to mention that in most cases they are also low in PUFAs, as atkins recommended meat and dairy (and adding fruit and veggies later on).

15
54f75fb54778cfa947990bec1175307a

on August 10, 2012
at 05:07 AM

Well, eating high carb paleo won't hurt healthy athlete as you put it. Maybe even eating SAD wouldn't hurt healthy athlete short/med term.

When I switched to paleo without restricting carbs I gained 10 kilograms in 3 months. Fruits made me ravenously hungry. I have never been a "healthy athlete" to begin with. People with metabolic syndrome can't have high or even medium carb paleo.

I switched to low-carb and started to lose weight.

If you recommend paleo diet for people with deranged insulin levels "go ahead and add some carbs" is a lousy advice.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 10, 2012
at 01:25 PM

Does lustig think that fruit itself is bad, or just table sugar?

3b3a449b6705e9ec8b141d0bd07c1a64

(1489)

on August 10, 2012
at 08:21 AM

I have to agree with Wendy. I have always eaten relatively clean and healthy, and I was always active. Up until 6 months ago I used to have two stand up jobs, since then I have transitioned to a desk job and I can tell you that I have definitely put on weight from being so sedentary all day. Standing up for 8 hours burns up to 800cals more than sitting for 8 hours, that's about two spin classes, or an hour of really fast running...quite a significant impact on your daily cal intake.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 10, 2012
at 10:42 AM

All it really shows me, is that eating whole foods, and living in a natural way is healthier than not. I didnt really need any evidence of that anyway.

C326acd0ae246a39c5685f2ba72e3136

(1631)

on August 10, 2012
at 05:44 AM

Sorry but it is not fruit's fault you have that issue. It's the years of abuse and SAD eating that has left your metabolism deranged. The kitivans eat the bulk of they're calories from carbohydrate and are very healthy. If people would take care of themselves from birth up they would be able to handle healthy carbs. Some people just didn't have the opportunity to learn about healthy eating early on in they're life.-

C326acd0ae246a39c5685f2ba72e3136

(1631)

on August 10, 2012
at 05:29 AM

We aren't meant to be sedentary and sit around on our butts all day. We need outdoor activity. It's build into us and a needed part of a healthy lifestyle.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 10, 2012
at 10:31 AM

"The kitivans eat the bulk of they're calories from carbohydrate and are very healthy. ". I have often heard that, but it leaves me wondering...where do they get there vitamins and minerals. And how healthy were they? Did they get alzhemers in old age, mental illness, or other signs of fat or mineral deficit? People often say "oh the innuit where healthy, or the kitivans or whatever". But how do we know they were optimally healthy? Because of some cursory investigation by some curious anthropologists? How can that possibly compare to the thoroughness of our medical records and system?

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on August 10, 2012
at 04:09 PM

Oops I just got a bit pissed off when reading *"IMO low carb works for all people as long as they don't overtrain as 'healthy athletes' do."*. I think Lustig is okay with fruit because of the fiber and vitamin C, but at first he was really against all types of fructose, including fruit. Gary Taubes, on the other hand, isn't okay with anything but veggies and limits fruit and nuts as much as possible.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on August 10, 2012
at 11:48 AM

Everyone just generalizes their own experiences here :)

Cfdbf3485f0bac5895f86d74afd9fac0

(98)

on August 10, 2012
at 07:25 AM

"People sit on their butts because they are fat, not vice versa." Sorry, but that is bullshit.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on August 10, 2012
at 11:50 AM

Id love to see Lustig drink bottles of soy oil lets see if his fructose theory is still true then. Maybe I should make a petition for that.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on August 10, 2012
at 08:11 AM

Gary Taubes, Dave Asprey and Ray Peat all think it's true that exercise isn't the key to weight loss, and I think the whole notion that fat people are fat because they are lazy is pretty horrible and just makes them feel guilty, likely resulting in eating disorders.

C326acd0ae246a39c5685f2ba72e3136

(1631)

on August 10, 2012
at 04:54 PM

The Kitavans showed no signs of mental illness. Don't forget the starches they were eating did have a wide-spectrum of vitamins and minerals. They got saturated fat from coconuts and omega-3 from fish. They have broad faces and nice teeth.

54f75fb54778cfa947990bec1175307a

(665)

on August 10, 2012
at 06:31 AM

IMO low carb works for all people as long as they don't overtrain as "healthy athletes" do. High carb works only for chosen ones with good genetics and life history. Kitavans are exception and they are not even paleo but agricultural society.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 10, 2012
at 10:37 AM

I personally am hestitant to draw strong conclusions about diet from these types of anecdotes and "studies".

54f75fb54778cfa947990bec1175307a

(665)

on August 10, 2012
at 06:10 AM

I'd say it's unlucky genes plus misinformation. I've been overweight since childhood. Michael, did you read "Why we get fat" by Gary Taubes? People sit on their butts because they are fat, not vice versa.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 10, 2012
at 01:22 PM

"Everyone just generalizes their own experiences here". Thats pretty much human nature. Cant relate to, or understand what we havent experienced. Always justifying ourselves to others. Etc etc...

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 10, 2012
at 10:34 AM

^ All that really means IMO is they werent all autodying in some obvious way. Probably largely because they all get sunlight, exercise and have community, rather than anything do to with what they eat. I mean, if some anthopologist from some HG society visited one of our modern gyms, should he then conclude that the CW diet is healthy? Or that married couples because they are living longer on average than single couples are eating a more optimal diet?

12
1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

on August 10, 2012
at 09:24 PM

If it is headed in the direction that gluten free starches (rice, potatoes, sweet potatoes) and whole fruits are better had than not had, then yes, I love direction it is headed.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on August 11, 2012
at 12:52 AM

Yeah for the most. Every few months I do a couple weeks of really low carbs, but other than that I keep it simple. 3 meals a day- meat, fish, eggs, fruit, vegetables, and tubers/rice.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on August 11, 2012
at 01:51 AM

well..on second thought I can think of just one thing that tastes comparable, but being ripped helps (indirectly) you get it, and it's not food ;)

C326acd0ae246a39c5685f2ba72e3136

(1631)

on August 11, 2012
at 01:13 AM

Awesome, sounds simple, real and easy to stick too. If I deprive my self of carbs for too long I'll binge on junk food.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on August 11, 2012
at 12:50 AM

Yeah, for the most part. Sometimes I go really low carb, but only for a couple weeks every few months. I like to keep it simple- meat, fish, eggs,fruits, vegetables and some starches (sweet potatoes, rice, and potatoes)

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on August 11, 2012
at 04:46 PM

fat burning beasts break out in hives if they consume gluten.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on August 11, 2012
at 02:49 PM

why does everything have to be free of gluten? There are millions of people who do just fine on gluten

C326acd0ae246a39c5685f2ba72e3136

(1631)

on August 10, 2012
at 11:52 PM

Yes, exactly! I have seen a few of your posts. You follow a higher carb, lower fat diet then most paleos, am I right? Your way of eating is much more sensible in my honest opinion.

C326acd0ae246a39c5685f2ba72e3136

(1631)

on August 11, 2012
at 06:16 AM

Yea I'm with you haha fruit, tubers and even some white rice whe I get sushi.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on August 11, 2012
at 03:05 PM

@Ben61820- Things have to be gluten free because Mark Sisson uses very good scare tactics ;)

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on August 11, 2012
at 01:50 AM

Yeah man don't binge. Just eat some real, whole food carbs and you'll not feel so deprived. They're good for you- they help keep you hydrated, they boost insulin sensitivity, and help you feel satisfied. I like to eat fruit (1-2 pieces) post workout and backload the rest of my carbs (starch) for at dinner. Keeps me away from the ice cream, chocolates, and nuts. It is true that nothing tastes as good as being ripped feels. LOL.

C326acd0ae246a39c5685f2ba72e3136

(1631)

on August 11, 2012
at 06:15 AM

Dude thanks for the advice.. I'm so with you on that one haha. Being able to just have abbs is awesome! I mean It's more genetic for me. I can stay lean pretty easily with a bit of exercise and have a mad set of abbs. It's building the muscle that is kinda tough. I have to work hard and be progressive each workout to see positive results. I also lose muscle easily.. Sucks being mostly ectomorph :( My brother got the awesome mesomorphic genes lol

C326acd0ae246a39c5685f2ba72e3136

(1631)

on August 11, 2012
at 05:43 PM

I love " Fat burning beasts " You don't have to eat uinder 150 grams of carbs to be a fat burning beast.. I can eat 200 grams of carbs most days and still, whenever I need, hafve the ability to fast for many hours without feeling discomfort and low blood sugar.

12
Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 10, 2012
at 07:34 AM

I think theres an intersting theme coming out - metabolisms harmed by years of sad, dont often dont do well unless you have less carbs.

If you used to be a sweet tooth, maybe your liver has been overloaded with fructose, then fruit might be a no-no for awhile (still try and get your vit c of course!). And it may not work for many to simply add in some sweet potatoes unless they are already fit and active, due to slow metabolisms and insulin resistance.

I think paleo has definately come to embrance medium carbs as being potentially healthy, but Id suggest merely that this is for people who have already done their rebalancing, or where not too effected by SAD lifestyles. So it still remains individual.

So yes, some starch is paleo, yes definately fruit is most paleo (and nutrient dense), but no, they are not nessasarily, or always healthy to those coming off the damages of CW diets.

Nor is there any evidence that low carb is damaging. Why would it be, we survived the ice age right? No mass still births like when they introduced wheat in egypt at least! (There are some known, mostly minor risks, with a long term "ketogenic diet" but IMO very few low carb folks eat less than 50 grams a day long term. I avoid starch like the plague and I still never get below 50)

These I disagree with:

"Lower your fat intake to see how you perform."

This seems a bit weird to me. What exactly do you mean?

"Let loose and have a cheat day. Go out with your friends and enjoy a nice beer and some junk food."

People can eat whatever foods they like, but if its an exception, its an exception, its not the rule.

Personally, I like to think I can have fun without beer, and enjoy whole foods.

I enjoy simple tasty food (made my first stew tonight, yum!), and looking out into nature, and going for a walk. Its not painful, I love it!

If I go to a party, I WILL dance, without alcohol. I will yell into the night without alcohol or drugs. Jump around like a gorilla if given tacit social permission. I am just waiting to break the social rules ;)

For me, the drinking, drugs, junk food and sitting around all day was the painful lifestyle. It was a combination of fleeting bliss and terrible lack. It was like being in love for a minute, and pining for a day and thus being in a state of near perpetual dissatisfaction and discomfort.

I guess thats the ex-druggie, ex-drinker, ex-junk food hedonist in me talking tho...

Not wanting to end on a negative note, let me say this: This lifestyle has given me new hope, new optimism, new joy. I am not following a diet, I am following the human blueprint :)

(Okay, yes a little ranty, lol)

C326acd0ae246a39c5685f2ba72e3136

(1631)

on August 10, 2012
at 04:51 PM

I definitely agree with you for the most part. I don't think low-carb in itself is unhealthy but long-term ketogenic diets don't seem optimal. Your leaving out too much and stressing your body. I'm definitely not advocating sitting around and eating shit all day lol. I'm just saying, maybe once a month a cheat day isn't so bad. Also carbs don't have to be eaten smothered in butter and coconut oil each time you eat them.

44349dd8bf3bc226731d2f6bd42e8124

(318)

on August 12, 2012
at 12:47 PM

"For me, the drinking, drugs, junk food and sitting around all day was the painful lifestyle. It was a combination of fleeting bliss and terrible lack. It was like being in love for a minute, and pining for a day and thus being in a state of near perpetual dissatisfaction and discomfort." Well said. I can really relate to this.

9
D41fcf8a3e7f2fa31c7a9c444a505f3f

(362)

on August 10, 2012
at 06:07 AM

I believe the mind set has changed so far that people accept that there is no single track Paleo and that you need to tweak it and make it your own based on your goals.

If you want to lean out and are starting to get fit, yes sticking to low carb is an approach. If you want to gain muscle mass and strength upping the fat, protein and carbs makes sense. And if you are all inflamed and suffer from an auto immune disease cutting out eggs, dairy and again being low carb is a plan.

I agree with Chris Kresser who said that Paleo is more of a template which means that deviation is good as long as it works for you. If you can handle rice and kefir, and you are feeling good in your body, I'd say go for it. Some people I know have cheat meals while being Paleo. Genetically I am not that lucky and a stricter Paleo approach works better for me. That does not mean though that I have the moral Paleo high ground. There is a Paleo approach for everyone.

9
149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

on August 10, 2012
at 05:59 AM

It is not a no sugar diet, its a low sugar diet. Just don't go out of your way to eat it. Eat fruit if you want...but it aint the fruit we evolved eating. If you can eat starch and your blood sugar and insulin and leptin remain low...you are blessed. For most here...we are trying to regain health after years of SAD or worse. Primal and Paleo focus on fat and moderate protein with low carb is the only way I know how to keep insulin/leptin/mTor low. If you have a better system...please blog it up. What Paleo and Primal does not teach us...how to have a healthy, youthful and long POST reproductive life. For that...we have no footsteps to follow. We are human guinea pigs....ahhh...guinea pigs...I wonder what that tastes like?

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on August 10, 2012
at 09:30 PM

blessed? Ridiculous. Eating starch with normal blood sugar is the default position of humans. I'm sick of hearing that we are all blessed, that we lucked into being able to digest starch. The bulk of humanity does just this day in and day out. That is the absolute norm and we all are brought into the world this way.

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on August 12, 2012
at 09:00 AM

I never said that we lucked into the ability to digest starch. Dont put words or sugar in my mouth. Your logic of "the bulk of humanity" is bullshit. The absolute norm?..if you will look around it is obesity, diabetes etc etc etc. Norm does not appeal to me. You may be sick of hearing that we are all blessed. That is, perhaps because you are sick. I am a ketone burner and I never argue with a glucose burner. Enjoy the rest of your glycated day.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on August 12, 2012
at 08:37 PM

Andre, in Europe this is not the case. I have yet to see an obese person cause the last time I saw one was, I don't know, 4-5 months ago? Yet everyone here is starch-loaded. It's sad that you're not open to high-carbing at all, just because you do well with a ketogenic diet.

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on August 13, 2012
at 07:26 AM

I travel thru Europe 7 times per year and while they are not as fat as Americans, we are the fattest, they are exploding with obesity and diabetes and it isn't just the tourists. Talk to Dr. John Briffa. Obesity and diabetes are together the fastest and largest epidemic in human history. I work in India with diabetics. Ehile most of the people are not obese here...they have become number 1 in the world in Diabetes and heart disease in under 10 years. Diet change? Sugar is great and fat is bad...especially ghee and coconut.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on August 13, 2012
at 10:15 AM

*"High fat and low carb does not cause hypoglycemia."* Are you serious? You have a shrine with a jar of butter and a big juicy steak in your house? Jeez, and people blame me for defending Ray Peat.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on August 13, 2012
at 08:10 AM

It may have saved you, it caused hypoglycemia for me, something that went away in a couple of weeks of high-carbing. The thing is, I don't think my diet is necessary to solve hypoglycemia, or even better than yours.

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on August 13, 2012
at 01:22 PM

Korion...Show me the evidence. Hypoglycemia is caused by excess insulin...basic biology. Can you educate me as to how high fat low carb induces hypoglycemia? I will change my mind and follow Ray Peat if you do. Yes..I am deadly serious. I am a Type 1 diabetic. Show me the money! Have you done any of the tests i asked about? If not...you are blind to your own body. Please...take me behind the woodshed. I am always open to the truth., Truth is what works.

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on August 13, 2012
at 07:31 AM

Korion...I was open to the high carb diet in the 1980s-90s when I worked at the Pritikin Centers. It drove my metabolism thru pre diabetic to Type 2 to Type 1 in 6 years. I have tried it. My basis for advocating a high fat low carb diet comes from the point that we are meant to burn fat as fuel not sugar. "your health is determined by one equation."The proportion of sugar versus fat you burn in your lifetime. The more fat you burn the healthier you will be. The more sugar, the less healthy you will be." Dr. Ron Rosedale. THis saved my life and normalized my sugsr/insulin/leptin.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on August 13, 2012
at 01:57 PM

Haha you talk like Dr. Kruse. I wasn't saying high fat low carb induces hypoglycemia, only that it did for me http://www.direct-ms.org/pdf/NutritionFats/Harbige%20PUFA%20in%20autoimmunity.pdf http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7667243 (these 2 talk about EFA-deficiency as protective against autoimmune diabetes) http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/002604959590123X http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/51/2/469.short .

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on August 13, 2012
at 01:58 PM

Like Cliff has said it has never been shown that sugar causes diabetes, but it has been shown that PUFAs can cause it. Lots of info at http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/glucose-sucrose-diabetes.shtml too.

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on August 14, 2012
at 08:17 AM

it is an odd state of reality when the middle class to richest Indians suffer the worst diabetes rate. The poor don't have the Western trained medical docs screwing them up...yet.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on August 13, 2012
at 01:59 PM

And as you say hypoglycemia is caused by overproduction of insulin, insulinogenic protein like leucine in eggs or chocolate could cause it. And can't those 2 be a part of a high-fat low-carb diet?

Medium avatar

(10611)

on August 13, 2012
at 02:54 PM

@andre I think the textbook case against veg/vegan is made by V.S.Naipaul in A House for Mr. Biswas, about living in the Caribbean Indian diaspora. It's not a diet book, but the observations of the sickness caused by too many bananas, the general unhealthiness of a high carb/high fat/no meat diet, the high view of milk as necessary for intelligence, and Biswas' love of tinned salmon are unforgettable insights into the damage that the Standard Indian Diet causes.

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on August 13, 2012
at 08:30 AM

High fat and low carb does not cause hypoglycemia. What causes that is overproduction of insulin and leptin. Have you had your insulin or leptin checked? You need a C-Peptide test to see how much insulin you are producing too. Do you check you A1c and your blood sugar? These are great tools available to show you what is happening behind the curtain of belief. Without this knowledge you are only guessing at what is going on in your body. I don't like math...but I can't argue with it.

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on August 14, 2012
at 08:15 AM

Korion, insult me all you want by comparing me to Jack Kruse. Fine. Doesn't bother me for you to label or name call. I read your studies..the first incriminates O6..we agree. My high fat diet is low O6...High in SAT and Mono. So here we agree again. Your second study is interesting but it is a rat study. I am not a rat. A rat's diet and metabolism are not valid for my health. Perhaps if and when I come back as a rat I will thank you for that. thhq....I see Standard Indian Diet and Standard of care doctors here in India shoving the Indians down a hole of diabetes, heart disease and obesity.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on August 14, 2012
at 09:07 PM

No I didn't want to insult you at all! Sorry if that came out wrong! Yes it's a rat study, and a mice study, but they are interesting nonetheless. I think the real problem is the PUFA, the lack of nutrients, the high phosphorus intake, the low food quality (impossible to find good milk here), ... Again, sorry if that came out wrong. I wanted to edit my comment to edit it out but that isn't possible :).

7
59fa7cd87fb9d669adf21e5cf3e7ada5

on August 11, 2012
at 07:36 PM

Imo "fat adapted" is a joke, something that Sisson made up for marketing purposes.

3dc940ac9be21e45cf83207814c8cd46

(544)

on August 13, 2012
at 02:21 PM

"Fat adapted" makes total sense to me. I've been reading Mark's blog for a year now, and although no person is perfect, I continue to read and internalize what he has to share with others.

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on August 13, 2012
at 01:25 PM

Do you know Mark Sisson? I do. You are rude. I think you have done nothing to enlighten health and nutrition. "Be ashamed to die till you have done something for mankind."

6
F9638b939a6f85d67f60065677193cad

(4266)

on August 10, 2012
at 08:59 PM

I think the whole high-carb message is a pendulum swing a little too far in the other direction. I hope to see another swing back toward the middle.

963322f175cdd4c5f7d52cc372b3a167

(646)

on August 11, 2012
at 06:58 AM

The carbs-are-bad attitude comes directly from the LC people trying to hijack your movement.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on August 10, 2012
at 09:24 PM

isn't it just that there is nothing wrong with carbs? Whether one's lifestyle dictates one would benefit from boatloads of them or not is beside the basic issue that carbs are fine, period. Do you see it differently?

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on August 10, 2012
at 09:24 PM

isn't it just that there is nothing wrong with carbs? Whether one's lifestyle dictates one would benefit from boatloads of them or not is beside the basic issue that there is nothing innately deleterious about carbs, period. Do you see it differently?

5
7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on August 10, 2012
at 03:47 PM

Actually, I tend to think the last two years or so are the fad. Ketogenic diets work pretty well for a variety of populations, and a paleo diet is certainly low carb, at least in relation to the SAD. I've personally tried to up my carbs since I dropped all the weight- I didn't gain any weight back, but I often made myself feel bad and now I know I've got some blood sugar issues. I feel stupid for listening to the pro-carb bloggers. In the end, my carb reload was indistinguishable from a carb binge. Peter is blogging again too. My fear is he just goes right over people's heads, especially when gets sarcastic.

From a scientific standpoint, the two approaches are complementary and in the bulk of cases, it only makes sense to use all the tools at your disposal- and that includes even calorie counting. Even if you aren't interested in losing weight, well, there is always glycation. It seems a good idea to minimize that sort of thing. The amount of carbs you can get away with varies, but the fact that it is better to eat less of them than the average American isn't in question.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on August 11, 2012
at 07:38 PM

Wow, ben, there are lots of studies showing that weight loss is much more complicated : http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/002604959590123X http://www.nature.com/oby/journal/v12/n4/abs/oby200467a.html http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16487915

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on August 10, 2012
at 09:26 PM

terminology like "carbs you can get away with" is the problem. Weight gain or loss is only a function of calories. Every ward study ever done shows this. There has never been a single ward study that showed anything but that.

44349dd8bf3bc226731d2f6bd42e8124

(318)

on August 12, 2012
at 12:51 PM

I'm losing at a very consistent rate and I fully give that to calorie counting. Sure the Paleo lifestyle helps tremendously, makes me feel human again - but by tracking my calories I feel in control. I know what I'm consuming. And I know I'm setting myself up to succeed without wondering, "Why aren't I losing". Keep in mind I have hated to track in the past, but it's a necessary evil if you are serious about losing, IMO.

7e1433afbb06c318c4d90860d493c49d

(5959)

on August 11, 2012
at 06:31 PM

"Carbs I can get away with" is very real for some of us. If I eat starch in any form on a regular basis, my appetite is increased to where I eat more calories than are needed, and I gain weight. Fruit does not have that effect, so it's a carb I can get away with. Sure, I could eat starch while counting calories and just live with gnawing hunger, but it's easier to simply eat an ad libitum, moderate carb, no starch diet of real foods that doesn't trigger overeating and weight gain.

7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on August 14, 2012
at 03:32 PM

Since I have blood sugar issues, I want to stay in ketosis, and I find I have to engage in calorie counting here too- this time to make sure I am eating enough calories. This is where Ben's story breaks down; carbs definitely ramp up the appetite. Make use of all approaches available (as long as they aren't contradictory) rather than relying on these propagandist statements (i.e. a calorie is a calorie or, all calories aren't created equal, or whatever else.)

5
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 10, 2012
at 08:14 AM

I think paleo risks de-differentiating (loss if specialisation) into insignificance if it does not establish certain principles, a manifesto or vision.

Clearly, it is neither useful nor possible to emulate everything a paleolithic ancestor experienced, however, neither is it effective to resort to supplementation that has little clinical evidence for benefit.

For example, at which point should whole foods and activities be supplemented? A set of guidelines would be helpful.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on August 11, 2012
at 09:19 PM

Differentiate on eating meat. Everywhere else paleo know with whole foodism.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on August 10, 2012
at 09:27 PM

youhave a solid point that without drawing lines you can not differentiate yourself from anything else. This is why I've given up on refering to anythiing as paleo. There is simply no definition. It is pointless to argue beyond that.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on August 11, 2012
at 09:20 PM

Differentiate on eating meat.

4
698ef7c5031f5a6b779637aa558f839d

(230)

on August 10, 2012
at 05:23 PM

It's not so much that Paleo is changing it's people adapting and doing what works best for their body and lifestyle. Whether your eating little to none or a lot of fruit its whole, natural, and straight from nature which is the whole point.

4
5457372e78a910c00cd1dd579ecbdce3

(1230)

on August 10, 2012
at 03:54 AM

Great question! I came into Paleo during this transition and saw a fair amount of the fallout, but I am anything but a traditionalist and really only care about my health. If new information comes to the fore that makes sense I will embrace it.

Fruit is a big part of my diet, and I never understood those that excluded fruit for health reasons. I personally used fruit to get over my massive sugar addiction (like eating a whole box of chocolate covered Twinkies or a plastic jar of cake frosting in one sitting). I try to always add fat to my fruit to limit my intake though, like 13% yogurt or coconut oil.

I think as long as your body fat does not trend in an upward direction have at 'er!

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on August 12, 2012
at 07:44 AM

When everyone said fructose is toxic, I thought it'd be a good idea to take it out of my diet. Big mistake though, in the long run.

3
6498694060d879a7960b35913539b75f

(1307)

on August 11, 2012
at 07:10 PM

I honestly can't imagine caring that much. I know that high fat and lower carb levels are what work for me, so that's how I need to eat. But let others eat more starches and fruit if they want. I don't think that's a "change" in paleo. I think that is variation. To each his own.

3
1c67bc28f4e44bbb8770b86df0463df3

on August 11, 2012
at 11:03 AM

"If you recommend Paleo to people with deranged insulin levels telling them to go ahead and add some carbs is bad advice." ....... Hmmmmmm, lets see. Not necessarily. If paleo ing in order to get insulin sensitivity and blood sugar under control it is perfectly reasonable that after a period of time, to reintroduce carbs (simple carbs like rice/potato) as the body will handle it completely differently.

3
5dd50f78f47b8848d93724d6eb38d4c1

on August 10, 2012
at 12:44 PM

It's positive, It shows you that this 'fad diet' has legs! You don't see the cabbage soup dieters having heated and emotional debates about the direction that their movement is headed in.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on August 11, 2012
at 09:23 PM

Talk about your one dimensional diets...

1
Fb4824b2611bb1eb212d63185888540b

on August 13, 2012
at 01:27 PM

When carbs are stored in a safe place like muscles, you're body is fine... It only starts going down hill when sugar is stored as fat...

0
51047b6885c2155ea2ed9f40670a806e

on October 22, 2012
at 02:06 AM

I feel like shit in high fat, moderat protein low carb. Like UTTER CRAP. Im always angry, and my energy level could be a lot better. I also take longer to recuperate after workouts -unless im imagining it!- I introduce some carbs and wala, I feel like a 100 bucks. I feel better at higher carb moderate fat and protein. Real food, different macro distribution. No wheat -gives me headaches from hell-.

2436f4e6d010656b346629a77e9599dd

(270)

on October 22, 2012
at 04:16 AM

I think it's awesome that you've been able to pinpoint so clearly what makes you feel good and what doesn't! I'm still working on that myself. So far, all I can tell is that all fast food all the time makes me feel gross and lots of protein seems to help me feel good. But I imagine I'll be able to refine as I go. :)

0
1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

on August 10, 2012
at 06:07 PM

I like it, and my guess is that paleo is going to warped into a diet for achieving ideal body composition (as it already advertises itself as, but largely fails at)- that is, the diet that most every fitness model already follows and has been following for over a decade. One that consists of whole foods, zero sugar, optimal fatty acid intake (in the form of wild fish, eggs, nuts, avocado, and olive oil) and strategic use of carbs in the peri-workout window. Higher protein content, moderate fat (no more than 40% of calories at the high end), moderate carb (between 40 and 50% of calories). Safe starches are already becoming more popular because a lot of people fail to meet body composition goals on a high fat, VLC diet. If your body composition sucks, your health likely sucks as well, so a more moderate carb intake is the only way I see things going if paleo is to improve upon itself. I also guess that there will be a diminished emphasis on saturated fats as the predominant fatty acid source (butter/dairy specifically, coconut in small amounts would be the exception), and more stress on the aforementioned fats. That is, if people come around to the idea that body composition is the greatest indicator of physical health.

That is just my guess, because although most people don't admit, I have a feeling the vast majority of people follow the paleo diet with the hopes of losing fat and looking good naked. This is likely why Mark Sisson has such a large following. If Jimmy Moore was still fat, no one would follow him. (Now he is still fat, but occupies less space. He lost weight, mostly muscle and fat.) Melissa is fit and Minger shows off her abs. The tenants listed above are the time tested and widely proven strategies at obtaining a level of physical fitness.

Most younger people want to look good naked to attract a partner, and want to improve athletic performance for sports. A younger crowd is the future of any movement, so this is a large reason why I suspect the above is the direction paleo will move. Those involved in sports will be the first to find out that high fat, VLC results in performance declines, and those wanting to lean up purely for aesthetics will hit the gym and find out that what fitness athletes do is superior to the results had by standard paleo/primal protocols.

0
963322f175cdd4c5f7d52cc372b3a167

on August 10, 2012
at 05:31 AM

Hmm. Seems I asked a question very similar to that and it was deleted by our Orwellian mods. Yes, it's good to see paleo evolve. The low carbers tried their best to co-opt it - and they're still trying - but thankfully things are moving in the other direction. AHS12 is another story... But yeah, good question. Just watch out for the PH Thought Police.

B4e1fa6a8cf43d2b69d97a99dfca262c

(10255)

on August 10, 2012
at 01:27 PM

its answers like this that keep me coming back for a laugh. why must there always be an evil empire at work? i mean beside monsanto. paleo has not changed, just new voices here that believe they are the first to utter these words......

A7768b6c6be7f5d6acc76e5efa66464c

on August 10, 2012
at 09:09 PM

It might be very likely that this question is better articulated, or whatever. And I wouldn't describe the "mods" as "Orwellian" here. After all, there's a large number of people with sufficient reputation points to close a question (I am one). The community votes, so if you want a question to stand, it should appeal to the community. However, I do find that something akin to "mob action" can close questions when sensibilities are offended, even if the meat of the question is good. Lots of people have edit authority too...why not edit good questions to diminish whatever bothers folks?

Medium avatar

(10611)

on August 11, 2012
at 09:29 PM

I've been reading a lot of Orwell lately. Before the Thoght Police there was the Spanish Civil War, and a general souring of Orwell's optimistic attitude by the reality of what being a Trotskyite meant in the days of Stalin. What goes on on Paleohacks is minor compared to that.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on August 10, 2012
at 01:23 PM

If it was as "subjective and argumentative" as this comment, I'd have voted to close it in a heartbeat. ;)

6426d61a13689f8f651164b10f121d64

(11488)

on August 10, 2012
at 01:09 PM

"Orwellian mods," "Thought Police"--seriously??? I did not see your previous question, but did it ever occur to you that this question may have been better articulated than yours?

963322f175cdd4c5f7d52cc372b3a167

(646)

on August 11, 2012
at 05:29 AM

Better articulated? With all due respect, I doubt it. A lot of the mods are, for lack of a better word, wimps. There was no compelling reason to delete not just my question - but my entire account. Hard-hitting questions dealing with controversial issues do not amount to 'trolling' (the mods' favorite all-purpose response to things/people they would rather not deal with).

963322f175cdd4c5f7d52cc372b3a167

(646)

on August 11, 2012
at 10:20 PM

It all amounts to suppression of free speech.

963322f175cdd4c5f7d52cc372b3a167

(646)

on August 11, 2012
at 05:32 AM

I've seen raw vegans with more balls than a lot of these 'paleo peeps'. So much for the paleo/testosterone argument... How the PH community - particularly those with an degree of power - handled the Kruse debacle illustrates this perfectly. And WHO decided that 'argumentative and subjective' were bad things? Isn't that what makes for lively debate? Sheesh.

A7768b6c6be7f5d6acc76e5efa66464c

on August 18, 2012
at 12:05 AM

But this isn't a venue for free speech. We know when we join that we can be edited, deleted, and banned. What's free about that?

A7768b6c6be7f5d6acc76e5efa66464c

on August 18, 2012
at 12:06 AM

Also, when I said "better articulated," my intention was to indicate that I hadn't seen the question, and didn't have enough information to judge. We'll never know, since you haven't presented us with any examples, so all we can do is talk around it. You might truly have been an utter victim of moderator caprice. Such is the hazard of participating here. We knew this from the day we signed up.

-1
137fc924c795b1bc01edc49ab458dadb

on August 10, 2012
at 10:51 AM

I certainly do! There is no need for extreme eating, just natural nutrition as often as possible please.

www.naturalnutritionmelbourne.com

C2450eb7fa11b37473599caf93b461ef

(3225)

on August 10, 2012
at 01:00 PM

Really? Your first post on PH is a plug for your website?

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