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Carb Backloading Morning Workout

Answered on October 16, 2013
Created October 01, 2013 at 3:36 AM

Hey, so I'm wondering, what should you have in a post workout meal if you follow Nate Miyaki's or John Kiefer's nutritional protocols of eating the majority of carbs at night, ASSUMING you train fasted in the early morning? I'm just curious about what that post workout meal should consist of, as I know Miyaki suggests fruit without any protein, but that seemed weird to me.. Any advice from people who've followed these types of protocols?

Thanks!

458b7bac46cb9d6110245305ce8fae44

(88)

on October 09, 2013
at 01:07 AM

Thanks so much! this answered my questions completely!

Ca2c940a1947e6200883908592956680

(8574)

on October 08, 2013
at 04:01 PM

Going to update my answer above for you.

Ca2c940a1947e6200883908592956680

(8574)

on October 08, 2013
at 03:45 PM

Well I think the driving point is you want muscles (M) to be insulin sensitive (IS) and adipose (A) to be insulin resistant (IR). Apparently in the morning M and A are IS, in the evening M and A are more IR. The trick is then increasing M IS via contraction (GLUT-4 receptors) whilst the A are apparently IR. Thus if you are indeed training in the morning, I would assume you are simply increasing M IS but possibly not like the contrast of evening M IS and A IR. From what I understand carbohydrate restriction or prolonged fasting does increase whole body IR (to spare glucose for the brain).

458b7bac46cb9d6110245305ce8fae44

(88)

on October 08, 2013
at 12:20 AM

This is basically what I've been trying right now, it's way too early to tell if it will work for me though... Great to know!

458b7bac46cb9d6110245305ce8fae44

(88)

on October 07, 2013
at 05:26 PM

@Mash? did you see the comment I posted? I want to make sure I'm understanding this

7904c7276d7e48f1be887fabd263bfd9

(300)

on October 01, 2013
at 05:31 PM

@Mash

when you eat a carb heavy meal, what causes you to be tired? ive heard anecdotes that its the high blood sugar stoping your body from processing adequate amounts of water or something to that effect.(dehydration)-(havent yet looked into it)-

would consuming plenty of water before/during a carb heavy meal prevent the issue? will look into this myself eventually but would be interested in anything you know on the topic as i sometimes eat carb heavy meals @times i dont want to be tired.

458b7bac46cb9d6110245305ce8fae44

(88)

on October 01, 2013
at 05:00 PM

Did I get this right? And if so, doesn't this mean that UNLESS you train in the evening, and thus trigger the GLUT4-thing(sorry, I don't really know what to call it, other than "process") that the whole benefit to carb-backloading is lost, and that you shouldn't even try to use it if you train in the morning? Yet this doesn't seem to make sense, if so, why would both Miyaki, and Kiefer have protocols for following this type of eating even if you train in the morning?

Any thoughts?

458b7bac46cb9d6110245305ce8fae44

(88)

on October 01, 2013
at 05:00 PM

Then by strength training in the evening, you trigger the GLUT4-related process, meaning you can take in carbs to your muscle cells without needing an insulin spike, allowing you to fill your glycogen stores fairly easily, while also benefiting from it being a time where normally you are less insulin sensitive, so any FAT eaten is still difficult to store in fat cells... --

458b7bac46cb9d6110245305ce8fae44

(88)

on October 01, 2013
at 04:59 PM

@Mash -I think I finally get the science behind these types of protocols:

So we are naturally more insulin sensitive in the morning, and less insulin sensitive at night, regardless of who you are(assuming you're not diabetic.) In the morning this means both fat AND carbs are more easily taken into fat cells, and in the evening both fat AND carbs are less easily taken into fat cells. If you provide no insulin spike in the morning by avoiding carbs, you won't store either fat or carbs as fat(assuming you're within caloric needs). -

(part 2 below)

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Ca2c940a1947e6200883908592956680

(8574)

on October 01, 2013
at 09:19 AM

Fill your boots: http://bit.ly/12ayQWu

Whether back-loading actually makes that great a difference is debatable I think though that consuming carbs post-workout is probably doing more of the overall work.

I would think though that consuming a large carb heavy lunch would put me to sleep, and thus leaving them to the evening works albeit I also workout from 19:00. If I don't specifically workout I don't have any carbs, but normally have a high-fat meal, steak and butter, berries with a heap of double cream.

My advice; remain fasted for an hour after training, and then simply have a standard sized lunch (meat + green veg) with about a cup of rice/potato and one piece of fruit. This would be at most 60g of carbs and contains some fructose which potentially spares glucose for muscle glycogen over liver glycogen. Then for dinner you can do the same but just double everything.

Potentially carbs may be partitioned "optimally" the closer to your workouts (before or after) but again I can't say for sure, but it makes sense in my mind. It's the case of using your muscles uses carbs better.

Well I think so.

Recent and useful: http://j.mp/19e5pKB

---

08.10.13 update for @Jdoane

Well I think the driving point is you want muscles (M) to be insulin sensitive (IS) and adipose (A) to be insulin resistant (IR). Apparently in the morning M and A are IS, in the evening M and A are more IR. The trick is then increasing M IS via contraction (surfacing GLUT-4 receptors) whilst the A are apparently IR.

Thus if you are indeed training in the morning, I would assume you are simply increasing M IS but possibly not like the contrast of evening M IS and A IR. From what I understand carbohydrate restriction or prolonged fasting does increase whole body IR (to spare glucose for the brain).

I guess that prolonged periods of glucose restriction would decrease M and A IS, and which for M could be mitigated by muscle contraction. The general prescription of moderate (<150g carbs/day) does the work here in possibly providing a better balance of IS and IR throughout the week, month, life. Taking advantage? Eating low-carb until the evening seems useful, exercise in the evening even more so. My guess is that morning training would simply aid in utilising carbs better PWO, specifically better closer to the training. But honestly I am not 100% sure how difference all this makes in the big picture.

Again if I was to say what I take from reading about all this...

  • Consume carbohydrate around exercise: specifically muscle contraction. "Around" can be before or after, and at least simply going for a good walk after dinner is probably useful here. We take advantage of increased muscle IS, and somewhat depleted glycogen stores and thus one would assume the majority of glucose would be then taken up by the liver and muscles rather than adipose tissue.
  • It seems short-term fasting increases IS via more controlled insulin levels over time, but prolonged glucose restriction decrease IS to spare glucose for the brain. I guess fasted training may be the application here? As I write this I am thinking perhaps if you do train in the morning that you could try eating your last meal at lunchtime, and thus be close to 16 hours fasted by the time you workout in the morning. Basically the 16/8 but you are pushing the start back to after lunch rather than after dinner which most classically do. (This seems interesting to me as I write this.)
  • If carb-backloading is taking advantage of the cyclic IS/IR of 24 hours, I suppose you cant follow it classically due to working out in the morning. Potentially fasting from lunch, fasted morning workout, then lower-fat/higher carbohydrate PWO breakfast could nudge this cycle in your favour, I just don't know for sure. Try it?
  • Brad's worth watching again. Fasting and exercise increases growth hormone and lowers insulin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6L_E0cEaZw, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f-0MB2Uz_I
  • Possibly consuming a strong cup of green tea whilst you prepare your meal might be useful. <i>Green tea shows a favorable nutrient partitioning effect during times of carbohydrate metabolism, suppressing adipocyte GLUT4 translocation and stimulating myocyte GLUT4 translocation.</i> http://examine.com/supplements/Green+Tea+Catechins/#summary9-0

7904c7276d7e48f1be887fabd263bfd9

(300)

on October 01, 2013
at 05:31 PM

@Mash

when you eat a carb heavy meal, what causes you to be tired? ive heard anecdotes that its the high blood sugar stoping your body from processing adequate amounts of water or something to that effect.(dehydration)-(havent yet looked into it)-

would consuming plenty of water before/during a carb heavy meal prevent the issue? will look into this myself eventually but would be interested in anything you know on the topic as i sometimes eat carb heavy meals @times i dont want to be tired.

458b7bac46cb9d6110245305ce8fae44

(88)

on October 07, 2013
at 05:26 PM

@Mash? did you see the comment I posted? I want to make sure I'm understanding this

458b7bac46cb9d6110245305ce8fae44

(88)

on October 01, 2013
at 04:59 PM

@Mash -I think I finally get the science behind these types of protocols:

So we are naturally more insulin sensitive in the morning, and less insulin sensitive at night, regardless of who you are(assuming you're not diabetic.) In the morning this means both fat AND carbs are more easily taken into fat cells, and in the evening both fat AND carbs are less easily taken into fat cells. If you provide no insulin spike in the morning by avoiding carbs, you won't store either fat or carbs as fat(assuming you're within caloric needs). -

(part 2 below)

458b7bac46cb9d6110245305ce8fae44

(88)

on October 09, 2013
at 01:07 AM

Thanks so much! this answered my questions completely!

0
Ef398c239d5119c613ca25fabe66b6ed

on October 16, 2013
at 02:27 PM

For fat loss, I would recommend take 10g of BCAA If you want to remain in a fasted state. I do that or I take whey protein isolates with creatine and got amazing results. I'm doing a cyclical low carb diet but I throw in a crazy high carb day once a week and got the best results.

,

For fat loss, I read that it's best to only consume BCAA post workout if you want to remain in a fasted state or whey protein with some creatine. (I do whey isolates and creatine post workout and got amazing results) I'm doing a cyclical low carb diet so I throw in a huge amount of carbs 1 day a week

0
2a6025992746ff6cd4ffb6ccf0aa03fc

on October 08, 2013
at 09:33 AM

I like to eat more carbs in the evening because it seems to improve my sleep. I also find that protein based meals during the day keeps me more satisfied and less sleepy. You may feel differently.

0
D6bd736f178303c6e0b5bb636d97d41e

on October 07, 2013
at 06:54 PM

I know I'm new to the community, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I workout in the morning every single day (I know that it's a little too much but I love it), and have a whack of carbs right after, in addition to protein. Then I stay carb-free (except for veggies) for the rest of the day until right before my last meal. For that last meal, I go carb nuts!

Generally speaking, I have between 150-220 grams of carbs per day. My approach is closer to the Renegade Diet, which doesn't fit your exact question, but it has worked for me. I've been bulking and have put on about 6 lbs of muscle over the last 3 months. Feel good as well!

458b7bac46cb9d6110245305ce8fae44

(88)

on October 08, 2013
at 12:20 AM

This is basically what I've been trying right now, it's way too early to tell if it will work for me though... Great to know!

0
Medium avatar

(238)

on October 01, 2013
at 04:05 AM

I'm confused, I thought you were supposed to train early PM and then carb eating begins? It's all too much for me but I had read Miyaki and some of the Kiefer blurbs.

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