1

votes

Can you be muscular on a high fruit diet?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created January 17, 2012 at 2:10 AM

I know many posters, like Cliff, follow a high fruit diet and seem to be thriving on it. I personally consume a lot of carbohydrate too, but most of it comes from low fructose starch. I have always avoided fructose because I have been under the impression that fructose ONLY effectively refills liver glycogen and than enters the bloodstream as triglycerides (I don't know if this right, it is just my rudimentary understanding from what I have read on paleohacks and many other forums), and never really gets to muscle glycogen. Is such a statement true? I know bodybuilders avoid fruit and usually consume lots of starch to look their best but my knowledge of fructose biochemistry is lacking.

7fb5e7849c5d9d8ebdfa9d36786b1fe9

(178)

on April 01, 2013
at 03:00 AM

I have heard they do consume large amounts of insects. I think that counts as meat.

C4f1a0c70c4e0dea507c2e346c036bbd

on November 11, 2012
at 10:54 PM

How many fruits do I need to eat to turn into a chimpanzee?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 11, 2012
at 05:31 AM

Added Ray-peat to this question's tags just so I don't have to keep seeing the fruity goodness.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on October 16, 2012
at 05:24 PM

Last time I checked, we're humans. What works for chimps might work for us, but it general it doesn't. Oh, and by the way, chimps hunt for protein. Yes, that's right, they work in a group together to hunt other animals that they eat. see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpYViR9MqrU for one example. Oh, btw, please take your incorrect vegan propaganda elsewhere, it isn't welcomed here.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on March 18, 2012
at 06:30 PM

@Bill if there's anyone trolling here it's you. As you seem to hate gelatin I guess it's normal you don't like Ray Peat. Mr. Peat doesn't advocate bananas because they are often underripe. His diet is completely paleo if you want it to be so I really don't see what the issue is. @cliff what about root veggies? I believe those are okay if I read him right, right? What fruits are best, btw? He says tropical fruits and cherries, melons and citrus fruits are the best (except grapefruits with pulp), but I'm not sure if all tropical fruits are okay (eg. pomegranates which have seeds).

23f79c5241be763ac583fc68d58ee02c

(250)

on February 01, 2012
at 08:08 PM

Which would seem to be the point. If you want to be lean and healthy wouldn't the food that is palatable (your body's way of saying "Yes") while being self-limiting in quantity be ideal? For me, I can eat 6 cups of cooked rice without blinking or getting full. I can only eat 2-3 cups of fruit before I feel stuffed.

23f79c5241be763ac583fc68d58ee02c

(250)

on February 01, 2012
at 08:05 PM

I'm sorry but isn't part of his argument that fructose DOES turn into fat in humans? That fructose, not fat, makes us fat? LOL When did that become controversial? Low carb people think it's ok to produce your own sugar with meat but not produce your own saturated fat with sugar? Why the double standard? Or is saturated fat not bad again?

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 19, 2012
at 03:06 AM

My kids, well one of em, pretty much eats this way....eggs, meat, fruits, and ice cream...won't eat his vegetables. Personally I prefer fruits over starches too, but I eat the whole fruit. My only problem with the whole Peat thing is his emphasis on raising thyroid and/or that carbs are even necessary....I'm no longer convinced they are the devil to everyone, but I'm not convinced they need to be actively sought out either...http://paleohacks.com/questions/78343/is-lowered-t3-resulting-from-a-low-carb-diet-problematic#axzz1jrUW0Czw....and pretty much adything by ambimorph on here.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 18, 2012
at 11:04 PM

Who said anything about bananas? Bananas aren't ray peat for the most part. I don't really eat that much ice cream if any at all, its only really a treat if I have extra cash which I rarely do. @korion- Raw vegetables aren't aloud, vegetables boiled for 40 mins+ are fine. Ray peat recommends a broth of leafs(kale, turnips etc.)as a way to get minerals. You don't want to go veggie crazy though as the fiber can feed bad bacteria and creat endotoxin.

9143379e9450c76e3246db057133833d

(273)

on January 18, 2012
at 08:51 PM

Trolling? Think you're going to have to explain your definition of that one. Just sharing my experience with and understanding of various Ray Peat dietary recommendations. Apparently discourse is "trolling" now?

1c67bc28f4e44bbb8770b86df0463df3

(6719)

on January 18, 2012
at 08:48 PM

Just keep trolling PrimalCG/AndyM/PrimalDanny and keep talking to yourself about ice cream and orange juice too.

9143379e9450c76e3246db057133833d

(273)

on January 18, 2012
at 08:01 PM

Soo, Bill, maybe you should read up a bit to better understand it. Bananas aren't the best idea unless they are very ripe for a variety of reasons. Better fruit options available. As for ice cream, what's the worry? Milk, cream, eggs, and sugar. You can make a case that sugar is awful I suppose but if you're of the belief that sugar simply supports thyroid/metabolism assuming you are nutrient replete then there's not much to go wrong with in ice cream. A because PaleoHacks LOVES Matt Stone: http://180degreehealth.com/2012/01/ice-cream-vs-human-breast-milk

9143379e9450c76e3246db057133833d

(273)

on January 18, 2012
at 07:54 PM

Didn't say that adding orange juice was a "no-brainer", and in fact I don't believe it is. Things still need to be properly balanced and meals complete with good proteins/fats. Plus, your "otherwise healthy diet" wasn't really that way for me. VLC messed me up pretty bad (only positive was that I leaned out some) and even with loads of starches I wasn't peaking athletically, recovery time was still too long, and my cortisol was way higher than prior to starting with this whole paleo thing.

1c67bc28f4e44bbb8770b86df0463df3

(6719)

on January 18, 2012
at 07:00 PM

Why? Because its a ridiculous general question. "Can you be muscular on a high X diet" where X=fat/protein/ox blood/human flesh/beef/chicken/raw sugar/etc and the answer is always Yes. Hidden after a run on sentence is the REAL question ' Is such a statement true?' Regarding what he thinks he knows about fructose. Which the answer is simply 'Yes' again. This so called question was really just asked so that trol-lol-lol PrimalCG and Cliff can come here and talk about Dr Peat

1c67bc28f4e44bbb8770b86df0463df3

(6719)

on January 18, 2012
at 06:37 PM

Soo. Avoid the 'pulp' in a gallon of OJ, but eat 30 bananas a day? And ice cream.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 18, 2012
at 04:11 PM

I would say that answering would be a good start, but it's apparently not been enough for me!

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 18, 2012
at 04:10 PM

Oh I think I saw that one Korion, it's to avoid PUFAs isn't it? I expect there's a study on it.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 18, 2012
at 04:09 PM

Sorry, I was just trying to understand from your experience that adding orange juice to an otherwise healthy diet was a no-brainer. I don't see that that is necessarily all that different to what other people eat anyway.

9143379e9450c76e3246db057133833d

(273)

on January 18, 2012
at 04:04 PM

I think instead of asking question after question on something that is a complicated topic and full of contextual recommendations is probably counter-productive on your part. Perhaps reading up on it would be a better way to find the answers and overall understanding you're looking for? Try: dannyroddy.com raypeat.com blogtalkradio.com/eastwesthealing http://forums.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?s=ada3eaf4b6a8981888d846ac2e030900&t=419742&page=1&pp=15

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on January 18, 2012
at 04:01 PM

How did this get up-voted? So if I answer with "fqjksqsdklf" I'd get an up-vote too?

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on January 18, 2012
at 03:57 PM

There's one thing I don't understand with Ray Peat yet : why no vegetables?

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 18, 2012
at 03:54 PM

Raw berries go down easier than raw potatoes or raw rice for me too. But I do struggle more putting away excessive amounts of fruit.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 18, 2012
at 03:53 PM

I just find the idea of increasing metabolism as something that is de facto 'useful' is a bit odd. And this was all just with adding sugar on top of everything else with no other changes?

9143379e9450c76e3246db057133833d

(273)

on January 18, 2012
at 03:40 PM

I already told you, increased metabolism. This is due to the thyroid boosting effects. What that means may be different to different people and also depend on exactly what and how much you're eating. CONTEXT. For me, at 5'10" and 185 lbs and 9% BF it has meant that I've actually stayed at the same weight since starting with Peat's stuff but I've dropped to 7% BF so muscle has increased. For some, like Cliff, who are underweight it likely means a shift towards overall weight gain as the thyroid function optimizes.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 18, 2012
at 03:15 PM

Drinking sugar is one of the things that can be worth ruling out when trying to lose weight. As for how Paleo it is, I guess if you're talking a couple of oranges worth when they're in season. I'm just not sure what's qualifying it as a superfood that can handle anything.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 18, 2012
at 03:11 PM

Useful for what though? Building muscle quickly?

9143379e9450c76e3246db057133833d

(273)

on January 18, 2012
at 03:10 PM

As for ice cream, well, it's just great. Loaded with good stuff and as long as you're not eating it to excess because of the fat content it can be fantastic for stress mitigation and metabolism. Just get good stuff with no gums, fillers, etc. Just cream, milk, eggs and sugar. Interesting article I saw today on ice cream: http://180degreehealth.com/2012/01/ice-cream-vs-human-breast-milk

9143379e9450c76e3246db057133833d

(273)

on January 18, 2012
at 03:07 PM

He doesn't say you NEED to eat refined sugar, ice cream, or even OJ. It's all contextual with Peat's stuff and so you would have to dig into it to really understand. I know the table sugar thing sounds crazy to many but the idea with that is basically as a supplement. If everything else is in check (nutrient replete, good protein, etc) then sugar's metabolism boosting effects are useful. Of course if you're not nutrient replete then the increased use of vitamins and minerals by a faster metabolism will likely be detrimental and make problems worse as we see in SAD.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 18, 2012
at 03:04 PM

The pulp feeds bad bacteria, a big part of rays protocol is minimizing endotoxin. Oj is a fruit, fruit is paleo? It fits in wherever you want it to fit in? I think its the best way to handle anything.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 18, 2012
at 02:34 PM

Good for you or not bad for you? I find the idea that we *need* to eat refined sugars lacks the unifying principle of having evolved to eat naturally available foods.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 18, 2012
at 02:31 PM

Why avoid the pulp though? And how does OJ fit in with the whole paleo framework? Or is it just the best way to handle more frequent workouts?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 18, 2012
at 01:56 AM

@jayjay the diet works for many(every) issues besides weight gain, I attribute the weight gain to finally getting my thyroid functioning properly after abusing my body with so much fasting and anti sugar dogma. My mom basically cured her auto immune idea disease just implementing some of these principals. Another paleohack member I've been corresponding with tried the diet after consulting me for advice and his results have been great, he was pretty surprised.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 18, 2012
at 01:53 AM

Danny roddys blog has lots of great info, dannyroddy.com

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 18, 2012
at 01:52 AM

My main sources of sugars are pulp free OJ with minor amounts from other various sources(pineapple juice, honey, white sugar, milk). If your coming from a ketongenic diet it will probably take you some time to adjust depending on how long you did low carb for.

0bd9775b305d2a602d496649982bc614

(252)

on January 18, 2012
at 12:05 AM

and what kind of fruits do you rp dieters eat? I'm so sick of bananas honeydues and watermelons

0bd9775b305d2a602d496649982bc614

(252)

on January 17, 2012
at 11:56 PM

I like how cliff you really seem to be benefiting from the RP diet. I have been on RP too after paleo law carb, ketogenic diet. How long do you think it takes for one to see any benefit of RP diet?? How long did it take for you? and what came about first and last..?

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on January 17, 2012
at 11:47 PM

Yes, exactly. I don't plan on eating only fruit. I just wanted to know how fruit compared to starches in terms of muscle building.

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on January 17, 2012
at 11:46 PM

That study you posted is very interesting. I think it's time for me to experiment. I am constantly on the move and play intense sports for 5 hours or more during the week, and the starches have been making me a bit heavy lately. It would be interesting to see how an increase in fruit will affect my performance.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 17, 2012
at 09:48 PM

I think the difference is he makes assertions like table sugar, OJ, and ice cream (cream and sugar) are good for you, among some other things involving theories on body temp and thyroid...

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 17, 2012
at 08:27 PM

See...we could have avoided so much confusion if I just knew that cliff was eating a bunch of sugar and ice cream to GAIN weight....now it makes total sense. In that case I totally agree with you.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 17, 2012
at 08:20 PM

Either way, to answer the question Sure you can build muscle on high fruit as long as you also have goodly amounts of building blocks also...you know protein and cholesterol and such. Will you be lean while gaining that muscle though? Dunno....

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 17, 2012
at 08:16 PM

I know plenty of people that build muscle on low carb...don't know much about ZC, though like has been pointed out it is terrific for maintaining lean muscle mas while losing fat.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 17, 2012
at 06:05 PM

In what ways is it different to, say, Primal?

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on January 17, 2012
at 05:04 PM

Trying to avoid ALL fructose is like trying to avoid all germs and we all know the problems THAT's causing.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on January 17, 2012
at 05:03 PM

It's not a disaster for the liver to process moderate fructose; we evolved to do that. The problem is if you're drowning in the stuff like most Americans on the SHAD.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 17, 2012
at 04:38 PM

I thought there was some muscular uptake of fructose, and it was that it was only *mostly* handled by the liver. Still not sure what difference it makes though.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 17, 2012
at 04:14 PM

What is this diet? Is it high fruit that has you functioning well, while potatoes left you lethargic? Or is there more to it? It sounds interesting, but I don't find I need high amounts of anything to feel the way you describe.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 17, 2012
at 04:08 PM

It may not be optimal, but scientifically I don't see any reason why it would be impossible. Although removing every single carbohydrate molecule from the diet would be quite challenging, but I'm not sure that's a useful point to make.

1c67bc28f4e44bbb8770b86df0463df3

(6719)

on January 17, 2012
at 04:03 PM

Ray Peat thinks its a good idea to drink OJ and eat Ice Cream, and that sugar routinely gets converted to fat in a human. Suuuure it does. See, I can add Phd after my name too Bill1102inf, Phd. That doesn't change the physiology of humans.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on January 17, 2012
at 03:33 PM

Dr Greg Ellis seems to have built a lot of muscle on very low carbs.

1c67bc28f4e44bbb8770b86df0463df3

(6719)

on January 17, 2012
at 03:28 PM

GLUT4? = "GLUCOSE" Transporter #4. Glut 4 has nothing to do with fructose. Period. It only reacts with glucose.

D12142c8cafb16d9af10b3362cb8fb62

(1590)

on January 17, 2012
at 03:02 PM

but... but... a fat doctor told me!

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 17, 2012
at 02:53 PM

lol at big fat lustig. Fructose does refill your muscle glycogen, we have glut 4 receptors in the muscle which can use fructose. Raydawg stop spreading disinfo.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 17, 2012
at 02:51 PM

Also cream(fat) and casein(pro) cause more ROS formation than orange juice

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 17, 2012
at 02:50 PM

Chris masterjohn disproved your assumption about ages in his latest series on the subject.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 17, 2012
at 02:49 PM

No you can't primadanny, show me anyone building muscle on ZC? Body builders use ketogenic diets to achieve unhealthy levels of leaness after they have already bulked on a typical body builder diet(which is mainly carbs/prot)

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 17, 2012
at 02:25 PM

Some bodybuilders avoid fruit *and* starch to look their best. It would be useful to make a distinction between muscle appearance and the different types of strength. You can build strength and endurance with or without carbs of any kind.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on January 17, 2012
at 01:55 PM

Matt, Any ideas on what would be considered "excess fructose?

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on January 17, 2012
at 01:53 PM

Yes, and low-carb paleo folks hold up ketosis as some sort of panacea. Humans can handle quite a bit of carbohydrate without becoming metabolically deranged.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on January 17, 2012
at 01:49 PM

@Raydawg, and that's why fructose go straight to the liver, to prevent it from traveling around the body and glycating various proteins. The problem isn't fructose, it's **excess** fructose.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on January 17, 2012
at 01:34 PM

Is there a reason you want to start eating a lot more fruit?

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on January 17, 2012
at 11:57 AM

@PrimalCG, and yet, your lament against Lustig still doesn't change the fact that only our livers can process fructose, and that fructose is a worse source of AGEs, and therefore reactive oxygen species than glucose.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on January 17, 2012
at 11:56 AM

@PrimalCG, and yet, your lament against Lustig still doesn't change the fact that only our lives can process fructose, and that fructose is a worse source of AGEs, and therefore reactive oxygen species than glucose.

9143379e9450c76e3246db057133833d

(273)

on January 17, 2012
at 06:39 AM

Since you can't see the full name of that link, it's a radio interview with Dr. Ray Peat called "Glycemia, Starch and SUGAR in Context".

9143379e9450c76e3246db057133833d

(273)

on January 17, 2012
at 06:38 AM

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/eastwesthealing/2011/04/27/dr-ray-peat-glycemia-starch-and-sugar-in-context

9143379e9450c76e3246db057133833d

(273)

on January 17, 2012
at 06:30 AM

Arrgh. Lustig and his beliefs about fructose are one of the worst things the "paleo" community ever latched on to. Please read some of Ray Peat's articles to get another perspective on fructose metabolism before becoming firmly entrenched in the "fructose is poison" camp.

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11 Answers

7
E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 17, 2012
at 03:09 PM

The misinformation in the paleo community is astounding, you can see it in this thread.

A combination of glucose/fructose(sucrose) is the most powerful stimulator of glycogen formation period(muscle and liver)

"When 0.35 (low glucose: N = 5), 0.70 (medium glucose: N = 5), or 1.40 (high glucose: N = 5) g.kg-1 body weight of glucose were given orally at 0, 2, and 4 h after exercise, the rates of glycogen synthesis were (mean +/- SE) 2.1 +/- 0.5, 5.8 +/- 1.0, and 5.7 +/- 0.9 mmol.kg-1.h-1, respectively. When 0.70 g.kg-1 body weight of sucrose (medium sucrose: N = 5), or fructose (medium fructose: N = 7) was ingested accordingly, the rates were 6.2 +/- 0.5 and 3.2 +/- 0.7 mmol.kg-1.h-1" http://ukpmc.ac.uk/abstract/MED/3316904

Ray peat has tons and tons of study and info on the subject if you do the research. Your comment from danny roddys site kinda hit home with me as I became extremely sick of potatoes to the point where they almost became repulsive(especially because the ones I get are usually shitty) which led me back to ray peat.

Before starting this diet about 4 months ago I was stalled out at 173 and feeling somewhat lethargic(also had some other minor problems). In the 4 months following this diet I'm now ~185 and my power/endurace is off the charts. The best part is the way I feel though, super clear thinking, no stress, no more gum pain, extremely fast recovery.

Another thing I really like about rays protocol is the guy actually has answers, he isn't just guessing and making assumptions. The guy is a real scientist who has experimented on himself and others for decades. People like lustig have a political agenda and don't understand the science.

"A cluster of new studies suggests that people who regularly work out don???t need to worry unduly about consuming fructose or other sugars. In certain circumstances, they may even find the sweet stuff beneficial." http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/04/how-sugar-affects-the-body-in-motion/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21407126

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18202575

"In conclusion, low dose fructose improves the glycemic response to an oral glucose load in normal adults without significantly enhancing the insulin or triglyceride response. Fructose appears most effective in those normal individuals who have the poorest glucose tolerance." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11134101

0bd9775b305d2a602d496649982bc614

(252)

on January 17, 2012
at 11:56 PM

I like how cliff you really seem to be benefiting from the RP diet. I have been on RP too after paleo law carb, ketogenic diet. How long do you think it takes for one to see any benefit of RP diet?? How long did it take for you? and what came about first and last..?

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on January 17, 2012
at 11:46 PM

That study you posted is very interesting. I think it's time for me to experiment. I am constantly on the move and play intense sports for 5 hours or more during the week, and the starches have been making me a bit heavy lately. It would be interesting to see how an increase in fruit will affect my performance.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 18, 2012
at 01:56 AM

@jayjay the diet works for many(every) issues besides weight gain, I attribute the weight gain to finally getting my thyroid functioning properly after abusing my body with so much fasting and anti sugar dogma. My mom basically cured her auto immune idea disease just implementing some of these principals. Another paleohack member I've been corresponding with tried the diet after consulting me for advice and his results have been great, he was pretty surprised.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 18, 2012
at 01:52 AM

My main sources of sugars are pulp free OJ with minor amounts from other various sources(pineapple juice, honey, white sugar, milk). If your coming from a ketongenic diet it will probably take you some time to adjust depending on how long you did low carb for.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 18, 2012
at 02:31 PM

Why avoid the pulp though? And how does OJ fit in with the whole paleo framework? Or is it just the best way to handle more frequent workouts?

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 18, 2012
at 04:10 PM

Oh I think I saw that one Korion, it's to avoid PUFAs isn't it? I expect there's a study on it.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 18, 2012
at 03:04 PM

The pulp feeds bad bacteria, a big part of rays protocol is minimizing endotoxin. Oj is a fruit, fruit is paleo? It fits in wherever you want it to fit in? I think its the best way to handle anything.

1c67bc28f4e44bbb8770b86df0463df3

(6719)

on January 18, 2012
at 08:48 PM

Just keep trolling PrimalCG/AndyM/PrimalDanny and keep talking to yourself about ice cream and orange juice too.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on January 18, 2012
at 03:57 PM

There's one thing I don't understand with Ray Peat yet : why no vegetables?

0bd9775b305d2a602d496649982bc614

(252)

on January 18, 2012
at 12:05 AM

and what kind of fruits do you rp dieters eat? I'm so sick of bananas honeydues and watermelons

1c67bc28f4e44bbb8770b86df0463df3

(6719)

on January 18, 2012
at 06:37 PM

Soo. Avoid the 'pulp' in a gallon of OJ, but eat 30 bananas a day? And ice cream.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 18, 2012
at 11:04 PM

Who said anything about bananas? Bananas aren't ray peat for the most part. I don't really eat that much ice cream if any at all, its only really a treat if I have extra cash which I rarely do. @korion- Raw vegetables aren't aloud, vegetables boiled for 40 mins+ are fine. Ray peat recommends a broth of leafs(kale, turnips etc.)as a way to get minerals. You don't want to go veggie crazy though as the fiber can feed bad bacteria and creat endotoxin.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 17, 2012
at 04:14 PM

What is this diet? Is it high fruit that has you functioning well, while potatoes left you lethargic? Or is there more to it? It sounds interesting, but I don't find I need high amounts of anything to feel the way you describe.

9143379e9450c76e3246db057133833d

(273)

on January 18, 2012
at 08:51 PM

Trolling? Think you're going to have to explain your definition of that one. Just sharing my experience with and understanding of various Ray Peat dietary recommendations. Apparently discourse is "trolling" now?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 18, 2012
at 01:53 AM

Danny roddys blog has lots of great info, dannyroddy.com

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 17, 2012
at 08:27 PM

See...we could have avoided so much confusion if I just knew that cliff was eating a bunch of sugar and ice cream to GAIN weight....now it makes total sense. In that case I totally agree with you.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 18, 2012
at 03:15 PM

Drinking sugar is one of the things that can be worth ruling out when trying to lose weight. As for how Paleo it is, I guess if you're talking a couple of oranges worth when they're in season. I'm just not sure what's qualifying it as a superfood that can handle anything.

9143379e9450c76e3246db057133833d

(273)

on January 18, 2012
at 08:01 PM

Soo, Bill, maybe you should read up a bit to better understand it. Bananas aren't the best idea unless they are very ripe for a variety of reasons. Better fruit options available. As for ice cream, what's the worry? Milk, cream, eggs, and sugar. You can make a case that sugar is awful I suppose but if you're of the belief that sugar simply supports thyroid/metabolism assuming you are nutrient replete then there's not much to go wrong with in ice cream. A because PaleoHacks LOVES Matt Stone: http://180degreehealth.com/2012/01/ice-cream-vs-human-breast-milk

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on March 18, 2012
at 06:30 PM

@Bill if there's anyone trolling here it's you. As you seem to hate gelatin I guess it's normal you don't like Ray Peat. Mr. Peat doesn't advocate bananas because they are often underripe. His diet is completely paleo if you want it to be so I really don't see what the issue is. @cliff what about root veggies? I believe those are okay if I read him right, right? What fruits are best, btw? He says tropical fruits and cherries, melons and citrus fruits are the best (except grapefruits with pulp), but I'm not sure if all tropical fruits are okay (eg. pomegranates which have seeds).

6
D5c8768927c463b363b109f18b7c16c4

(375)

on January 17, 2012
at 11:02 AM

We (as in eating Peat-style) also consume a lot of protein in the form of milk, gelatin, liver, eggs and some meat. This isn't the shitty raw vegan stitch where you waste away.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 17, 2012
at 06:05 PM

In what ways is it different to, say, Primal?

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 18, 2012
at 03:11 PM

Useful for what though? Building muscle quickly?

9143379e9450c76e3246db057133833d

(273)

on January 18, 2012
at 07:54 PM

Didn't say that adding orange juice was a "no-brainer", and in fact I don't believe it is. Things still need to be properly balanced and meals complete with good proteins/fats. Plus, your "otherwise healthy diet" wasn't really that way for me. VLC messed me up pretty bad (only positive was that I leaned out some) and even with loads of starches I wasn't peaking athletically, recovery time was still too long, and my cortisol was way higher than prior to starting with this whole paleo thing.

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on January 17, 2012
at 11:47 PM

Yes, exactly. I don't plan on eating only fruit. I just wanted to know how fruit compared to starches in terms of muscle building.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 18, 2012
at 02:34 PM

Good for you or not bad for you? I find the idea that we *need* to eat refined sugars lacks the unifying principle of having evolved to eat naturally available foods.

9143379e9450c76e3246db057133833d

(273)

on January 18, 2012
at 03:07 PM

He doesn't say you NEED to eat refined sugar, ice cream, or even OJ. It's all contextual with Peat's stuff and so you would have to dig into it to really understand. I know the table sugar thing sounds crazy to many but the idea with that is basically as a supplement. If everything else is in check (nutrient replete, good protein, etc) then sugar's metabolism boosting effects are useful. Of course if you're not nutrient replete then the increased use of vitamins and minerals by a faster metabolism will likely be detrimental and make problems worse as we see in SAD.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 18, 2012
at 03:53 PM

I just find the idea of increasing metabolism as something that is de facto 'useful' is a bit odd. And this was all just with adding sugar on top of everything else with no other changes?

9143379e9450c76e3246db057133833d

(273)

on January 18, 2012
at 03:10 PM

As for ice cream, well, it's just great. Loaded with good stuff and as long as you're not eating it to excess because of the fat content it can be fantastic for stress mitigation and metabolism. Just get good stuff with no gums, fillers, etc. Just cream, milk, eggs and sugar. Interesting article I saw today on ice cream: http://180degreehealth.com/2012/01/ice-cream-vs-human-breast-milk

9143379e9450c76e3246db057133833d

(273)

on January 18, 2012
at 03:40 PM

I already told you, increased metabolism. This is due to the thyroid boosting effects. What that means may be different to different people and also depend on exactly what and how much you're eating. CONTEXT. For me, at 5'10" and 185 lbs and 9% BF it has meant that I've actually stayed at the same weight since starting with Peat's stuff but I've dropped to 7% BF so muscle has increased. For some, like Cliff, who are underweight it likely means a shift towards overall weight gain as the thyroid function optimizes.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 17, 2012
at 09:48 PM

I think the difference is he makes assertions like table sugar, OJ, and ice cream (cream and sugar) are good for you, among some other things involving theories on body temp and thyroid...

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 18, 2012
at 04:09 PM

Sorry, I was just trying to understand from your experience that adding orange juice to an otherwise healthy diet was a no-brainer. I don't see that that is necessarily all that different to what other people eat anyway.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 19, 2012
at 03:06 AM

My kids, well one of em, pretty much eats this way....eggs, meat, fruits, and ice cream...won't eat his vegetables. Personally I prefer fruits over starches too, but I eat the whole fruit. My only problem with the whole Peat thing is his emphasis on raising thyroid and/or that carbs are even necessary....I'm no longer convinced they are the devil to everyone, but I'm not convinced they need to be actively sought out either...http://paleohacks.com/questions/78343/is-lowered-t3-resulting-from-a-low-carb-diet-problematic#axzz1jrUW0Czw....and pretty much adything by ambimorph on here.

9143379e9450c76e3246db057133833d

(273)

on January 18, 2012
at 04:04 PM

I think instead of asking question after question on something that is a complicated topic and full of contextual recommendations is probably counter-productive on your part. Perhaps reading up on it would be a better way to find the answers and overall understanding you're looking for? Try: dannyroddy.com raypeat.com blogtalkradio.com/eastwesthealing http://forums.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?s=ada3eaf4b6a8981888d846ac2e030900&t=419742&page=1&pp=15

3
5ef574d7893bc816ec52e04139e9bc09

(6097)

on January 17, 2012
at 01:36 PM

Yes .

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 18, 2012
at 04:11 PM

I would say that answering would be a good start, but it's apparently not been enough for me!

685e3c967e63b4eacccf02628fd9a3ac

(1026)

on January 18, 2012
at 04:01 PM

How did this get up-voted? So if I answer with "fqjksqsdklf" I'd get an up-vote too?

1c67bc28f4e44bbb8770b86df0463df3

(6719)

on January 18, 2012
at 07:00 PM

Why? Because its a ridiculous general question. "Can you be muscular on a high X diet" where X=fat/protein/ox blood/human flesh/beef/chicken/raw sugar/etc and the answer is always Yes. Hidden after a run on sentence is the REAL question ' Is such a statement true?' Regarding what he thinks he knows about fructose. Which the answer is simply 'Yes' again. This so called question was really just asked so that trol-lol-lol PrimalCG and Cliff can come here and talk about Dr Peat

2
F542ddc8cc2852f36be127b02fdb253e

on October 16, 2012
at 06:39 AM

Ever heard of chimpanzees? They have 1% body fat and are 3-5x as strong as man. They get up to 80% of their calories from fruit.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on October 16, 2012
at 05:24 PM

Last time I checked, we're humans. What works for chimps might work for us, but it general it doesn't. Oh, and by the way, chimps hunt for protein. Yes, that's right, they work in a group together to hunt other animals that they eat. see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpYViR9MqrU for one example. Oh, btw, please take your incorrect vegan propaganda elsewhere, it isn't welcomed here.

C4f1a0c70c4e0dea507c2e346c036bbd

on November 11, 2012
at 10:54 PM

How many fruits do I need to eat to turn into a chimpanzee?

2
96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on January 17, 2012
at 11:55 AM

There are some vegan dudes out there with the right genes that the anti-paleo crowd points to as examples, but it's not everyone that can do that.

The thing to worry about a high fruit diet is that fructose is highly reactive, and is a worse source of AGEs than glucose. As the Bill mentioned in the other answer here, only your liver can process fructose, and once your glycogen stores are depleted, the rest is harmful.

Even low fructose fruits such as bananas can be problematic. Carbs are still AGE sources, and burning glycogen is a far dirtier process than burning ketones or trigs, so you have that whole reactive oxygen species to deal with.

So the only reason to eat more carbs is if you're very active and need to top off your glycogen stores. Beyond that point, you're just asking for trouble and going down the pathway of insulin spikes and resistance.

So the question is how do you know when you've had enough carbs without going over? Obviously, if you work out and feel lethargic, you haven't had enough, but once you no longer feel that way, it's a good idea to take note of the amount of fruit you're eating and limit it at that level.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 17, 2012
at 02:51 PM

Also cream(fat) and casein(pro) cause more ROS formation than orange juice

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 17, 2012
at 02:50 PM

Chris masterjohn disproved your assumption about ages in his latest series on the subject.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on January 17, 2012
at 01:53 PM

Yes, and low-carb paleo folks hold up ketosis as some sort of panacea. Humans can handle quite a bit of carbohydrate without becoming metabolically deranged.

1
6d2b262179302201a0e1a0acb8bb33ff

on November 11, 2012
at 05:32 AM

Has anyone here met Ray Peat? I did. He looks like he's got cancer and looks like absolute shit yet everyone here is quoting the dude. If he had the answer he would use it. Doctor heal thyself blah blah....

1
7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on January 18, 2012
at 03:31 PM

The answer to your question is yes, though obviously, the most pertinent macro-nutrient to muscularity is protein.

Personally, I have found fruit to be less problematic than any of these so-called 'safe' starches. I don't know why.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 18, 2012
at 03:54 PM

Raw berries go down easier than raw potatoes or raw rice for me too. But I do struggle more putting away excessive amounts of fruit.

23f79c5241be763ac583fc68d58ee02c

(250)

on February 01, 2012
at 08:08 PM

Which would seem to be the point. If you want to be lean and healthy wouldn't the food that is palatable (your body's way of saying "Yes") while being self-limiting in quantity be ideal? For me, I can eat 6 cups of cooked rice without blinking or getting full. I can only eat 2-3 cups of fruit before I feel stuffed.

1
Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

on January 17, 2012
at 02:22 PM

Liver glycogen isn't just there in case your liver needs to make a break for it and do some sprinting, it gets taken to the muscles.

1
1c67bc28f4e44bbb8770b86df0463df3

on January 17, 2012
at 02:16 AM

Fructose needs to be processed by the liver before whatever it becomes can go anywhere(30% of ingested fructose becomes VLDL-fat). All other carbs/starches are absorbed as glucose by the body. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM <-- everything you wanted to know about fructose metabolism. You are right, that fructose from fruit will not be refueling your muscles, but, fruit contains other sugars which will.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on January 17, 2012
at 11:56 AM

@PrimalCG, and yet, your lament against Lustig still doesn't change the fact that only our lives can process fructose, and that fructose is a worse source of AGEs, and therefore reactive oxygen species than glucose.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on January 17, 2012
at 11:57 AM

@PrimalCG, and yet, your lament against Lustig still doesn't change the fact that only our livers can process fructose, and that fructose is a worse source of AGEs, and therefore reactive oxygen species than glucose.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 17, 2012
at 02:53 PM

lol at big fat lustig. Fructose does refill your muscle glycogen, we have glut 4 receptors in the muscle which can use fructose. Raydawg stop spreading disinfo.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on January 17, 2012
at 01:49 PM

@Raydawg, and that's why fructose go straight to the liver, to prevent it from traveling around the body and glycating various proteins. The problem isn't fructose, it's **excess** fructose.

D12142c8cafb16d9af10b3362cb8fb62

(1590)

on January 17, 2012
at 03:02 PM

but... but... a fat doctor told me!

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 17, 2012
at 04:38 PM

I thought there was some muscular uptake of fructose, and it was that it was only *mostly* handled by the liver. Still not sure what difference it makes though.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on January 17, 2012
at 05:04 PM

Trying to avoid ALL fructose is like trying to avoid all germs and we all know the problems THAT's causing.

1c67bc28f4e44bbb8770b86df0463df3

(6719)

on January 17, 2012
at 03:28 PM

GLUT4? = "GLUCOSE" Transporter #4. Glut 4 has nothing to do with fructose. Period. It only reacts with glucose.

9143379e9450c76e3246db057133833d

(273)

on January 17, 2012
at 06:30 AM

Arrgh. Lustig and his beliefs about fructose are one of the worst things the "paleo" community ever latched on to. Please read some of Ray Peat's articles to get another perspective on fructose metabolism before becoming firmly entrenched in the "fructose is poison" camp.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on January 17, 2012
at 05:03 PM

It's not a disaster for the liver to process moderate fructose; we evolved to do that. The problem is if you're drowning in the stuff like most Americans on the SHAD.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on January 17, 2012
at 01:55 PM

Matt, Any ideas on what would be considered "excess fructose?

1c67bc28f4e44bbb8770b86df0463df3

(6719)

on January 17, 2012
at 04:03 PM

Ray Peat thinks its a good idea to drink OJ and eat Ice Cream, and that sugar routinely gets converted to fat in a human. Suuuure it does. See, I can add Phd after my name too Bill1102inf, Phd. That doesn't change the physiology of humans.

23f79c5241be763ac583fc68d58ee02c

(250)

on February 01, 2012
at 08:05 PM

I'm sorry but isn't part of his argument that fructose DOES turn into fat in humans? That fructose, not fat, makes us fat? LOL When did that become controversial? Low carb people think it's ok to produce your own sugar with meat but not produce your own saturated fat with sugar? Why the double standard? Or is saturated fat not bad again?

0
77310f6f5e03afaad68b60c4cebb6bbe

on June 05, 2013
at 08:10 AM

@bmorgan,

Chimps actually eat a negligible amount of insects - typically less than 20g (2/3oz) per day. Insect eating is also seasonal.

Chimps probably eat insects is to obtain essential trace nutrients such as vitamin B12 rather than as a source of protein.

0
F542ddc8cc2852f36be127b02fdb253e

on November 11, 2012
at 04:40 AM

@raydawd,

"Oh, and by the way, chimps hunt for protein. Yes, that's right, they work in a group together to hunt other animals that they eat.

The meat eating habits of chimpanzees are massively exaggerated. They only eat meat ONCE EVERY SIX WEEKS on average. They only get 1-2% of their calories from meat. Many chimps NEVER eat meat.

7fb5e7849c5d9d8ebdfa9d36786b1fe9

(178)

on April 01, 2013
at 03:00 AM

I have heard they do consume large amounts of insects. I think that counts as meat.

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