15

votes

Beware the Nocebo Effect, Fruit and Safe-Starch?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created August 13, 2012 at 6:10 AM

I realize this has been discussed before but I just saw this article of the same title on Chris Kresser's feed. With the safe-starch debate at AHS it occured to me, what if all the demonization and fear mongering over fruit and carbs is actually what is creating the "side-effects" that some diehard VLC dieters feel when they try to add them back? Could the dogma be creating these problems through the nocebo effect?

I am not trolling, this is a serious question and I have experienced this myself.

7cf9f5b08a41ecf2a2d2bc0b31ea6fa0

(4176)

on August 15, 2012
at 11:34 AM

@JayJay um, when did i say carbs were bad? I think I said the exact opposite

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 15, 2012
at 12:39 AM

I cant really comment on here mucous deficiency idea though. And I am not saying keto diets are optimal or that they arent. They certainly seem to be sustainable when the massai or innuit do them, and we must have coped alright during the stone age, but there may be nutritional issues as above, that we arent used to dealing with in the modern age.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 15, 2012
at 12:32 AM

^ Jaminets summary of ketogenic diets isnt _too_ bad.Although little of the established risks of such diets have anything whatsoever to do with her theory of "glucose insufficiency". Id say its as follows - kidney stones, loss of electrolytes, and scurvy from vitamin C. Innuit and other VLC populations mitigate the last too by eating nose to tail. (Blood is high in electrolytes, some other animal parts high in vitamin C). Vitamin C also mitigates some of the stone issues. If i was VLC or zero carb, id supplement with vitamin C and get in some electrolytes, or eat nose to tail, to emulate this.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on August 14, 2012
at 07:35 PM

@Hunting.....You don't think a random "carbs is bad news IMO" would generate a down vote with no explanation about why they are bad in this particular context? You earned it.

0bc04a2ee661857e8458df34646e70ef

(319)

on August 14, 2012
at 03:15 PM

Jaminet has a great series on this very topic: http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/11/dangers-of-zero-carb-diets-i-can-there-be-a-carbohydrate-deficiency/ TL;DR, ketogenic diets are not without side-effects.

6426d61a13689f8f651164b10f121d64

(11488)

on August 14, 2012
at 02:23 PM

+1! I want everyone to note that @Violet has perfectly illustrated how to use an old question to formulate a new question. First, you search for old questions in your topic of interest. It is helpful if you link to the old question in your new question. Then you take your question beyond the old question into new territory. Kudos!

7cf9f5b08a41ecf2a2d2bc0b31ea6fa0

(4176)

on August 14, 2012
at 09:25 AM

wow, say things people don't agree with and they downvote you, nice

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on August 14, 2012
at 04:10 AM

Yup, its a perfectly healthy/necessary adaptation to a VLC diet.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on August 14, 2012
at 04:07 AM

Its bad Mmmmm-kay....cause like its bad mmmmmkay.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on August 14, 2012
at 03:19 AM

@Mscott.......Actually the state of the organism determines its susceptibility to illness. So stress can (and usually is) part of the cause. As was so wisely stated..."It is the soil, not the seed."

54f75fb54778cfa947990bec1175307a

(665)

on August 14, 2012
at 01:32 AM

I heard that ulcers are caused by h.pylori bacteria which probably multiplies due to constant refined carbs consumption.

0a9ad4e577fe24a6b8aafa1dd7a50c79

(5150)

on August 14, 2012
at 12:07 AM

It takes a huge leap of faith to call carbs "nutrients."

A97b68379a576dfa764a4828304d2efb

(4181)

on August 13, 2012
at 08:25 PM

Yeah, I think I am going to keep them in (but add in slower to see where my mushy threshold is) but try to time it before some kind of activity. My blood pressure is freakishly low and hasn't varied.

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on August 13, 2012
at 05:43 PM

Ulcers (like many illnesses) are aggravated by stress, not caused by it.

61844af1187e745e09bb394cbd28cf23

(11058)

on August 13, 2012
at 03:06 PM

That's an awfully broad brushstroke, HuntingBears. No, "it" isn't bad in the long-run. Many thrive on a VLC diet. Others, not so much.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on August 13, 2012
at 03:01 PM

By the same token, any nutrient-excluding diet eaten obsessively is bad. Ancestral diet was variable, and the obsession was with finding something to eat, not what to eat.

7cf9f5b08a41ecf2a2d2bc0b31ea6fa0

(4176)

on August 13, 2012
at 02:57 PM

long run it's bad

Medium avatar

(10611)

on August 13, 2012
at 02:42 PM

You might try quantifying your results with a blood glucose meter or blood pressure. It helps to use the carbs to support immediate activity because of the speed that they enter the bloodstream.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on August 13, 2012
at 02:34 PM

I have seen my blood glucose shoot up 100 points instantly due to excitement, and ulcers are stress-induced.

61844af1187e745e09bb394cbd28cf23

(11058)

on August 13, 2012
at 01:10 PM

Care to expand? VLC is very necessary for me.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on August 13, 2012
at 12:27 PM

I was thinking that in reverse :p

54f75fb54778cfa947990bec1175307a

(665)

on August 13, 2012
at 11:17 AM

VB, thanks for asking. I eat sauerkraut, pickles of all kinds, green leaves (including spinach), strawberries, red grapefruit and kiwi occasionally, avocado. The most carb dense food is manuka honey, but it's a couple tsp a day with sourcream and nuts. It's far from zero carb of course but by my estimate shouldn't be higher than 100 g

F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on August 13, 2012
at 07:49 AM

I would like to know - do you still eat carrots? What carbs and how much carbs do you eat? Like spinach, cabbage, fruit? Thanks!

Bf57bcbdc19d4f1728599053acd020ab

(5043)

on August 13, 2012
at 06:46 AM

oops, that NYT article was the one he was referring to. My bad.

6d64cd6dc98d6ab763bd03678a317964

(2177)

on August 13, 2012
at 06:26 AM

+1 for teaching me a new word today.

Bf57bcbdc19d4f1728599053acd020ab

(5043)

on August 13, 2012
at 06:26 AM

definitely a very good point. There was a good article about this last week in the NYT as well. belief is a very powerful thing.

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5 Answers

8
54f75fb54778cfa947990bec1175307a

on August 13, 2012
at 07:03 AM

Nocebo effect is very paleo. Some Polynesian tribes have taboo on particular food. I heard there is a documented case when tribesman ate food that was taboo for him by mistake and died shortly after he found this out!

Stress messes up digestion, so if someone is worried about the food it won't be digested properly.

Lucky for me, after greatly reducing carbs (not VLC, but less than 100 g) my anxiety also went down. So I'm not worried even when I eat some unexpected carbs! (it was different story on high carb diet - I was constantly hungry and constantly worried about food)

F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on August 13, 2012
at 07:49 AM

I would like to know - do you still eat carrots? What carbs and how much carbs do you eat? Like spinach, cabbage, fruit? Thanks!

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on August 13, 2012
at 05:43 PM

Ulcers (like many illnesses) are aggravated by stress, not caused by it.

54f75fb54778cfa947990bec1175307a

(665)

on August 13, 2012
at 11:17 AM

VB, thanks for asking. I eat sauerkraut, pickles of all kinds, green leaves (including spinach), strawberries, red grapefruit and kiwi occasionally, avocado. The most carb dense food is manuka honey, but it's a couple tsp a day with sourcream and nuts. It's far from zero carb of course but by my estimate shouldn't be higher than 100 g

Medium avatar

(10611)

on August 13, 2012
at 02:34 PM

I have seen my blood glucose shoot up 100 points instantly due to excitement, and ulcers are stress-induced.

54f75fb54778cfa947990bec1175307a

(665)

on August 14, 2012
at 01:32 AM

I heard that ulcers are caused by h.pylori bacteria which probably multiplies due to constant refined carbs consumption.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on August 14, 2012
at 03:19 AM

@Mscott.......Actually the state of the organism determines its susceptibility to illness. So stress can (and usually is) part of the cause. As was so wisely stated..."It is the soil, not the seed."

6
Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 13, 2012
at 10:35 AM

Id say its physiological insulin resistance myself. Low carbers need to reintroduced carbs slowly. Especially VLCers who have done so long term.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on August 14, 2012
at 04:10 AM

Yup, its a perfectly healthy/necessary adaptation to a VLC diet.

4
A97b68379a576dfa764a4828304d2efb

(4181)

on August 13, 2012
at 01:05 PM

I think I jumped on the safe-starch band wagon a little too eagerly. I started cycling in white rice, white potatoes and sweet potatoes (probably more than I should have) and I am not comfortable with the results. I feel like I have decreased muscle mass and more body fat. My weight hasn't changed on the scale but everything feels mushy again. I am not leptin resistant, but I think I am one of those people who really thrives on naturally lower carb. Considering how gung-ho I was about eating white rice again, I don't think my results were psychological.

That's just me, though. My boyfriend did the same and has never looked leaner.

A97b68379a576dfa764a4828304d2efb

(4181)

on August 13, 2012
at 08:25 PM

Yeah, I think I am going to keep them in (but add in slower to see where my mushy threshold is) but try to time it before some kind of activity. My blood pressure is freakishly low and hasn't varied.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on August 13, 2012
at 02:42 PM

You might try quantifying your results with a blood glucose meter or blood pressure. It helps to use the carbs to support immediate activity because of the speed that they enter the bloodstream.

2
E6c14efded576a0bea38a2fe2beced6a

on August 13, 2012
at 02:20 PM

To me the bigger question would be why, despite all the legitimate authorities saying otherwise, do people still keep discussing this myth that paleo means low carb.

0
7cf9f5b08a41ecf2a2d2bc0b31ea6fa0

on August 13, 2012
at 12:39 PM

VLC is bad news imo

7cf9f5b08a41ecf2a2d2bc0b31ea6fa0

(4176)

on August 14, 2012
at 09:25 AM

wow, say things people don't agree with and they downvote you, nice

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 15, 2012
at 12:32 AM

^ Jaminets summary of ketogenic diets isnt _too_ bad.Although little of the established risks of such diets have anything whatsoever to do with her theory of "glucose insufficiency". Id say its as follows - kidney stones, loss of electrolytes, and scurvy from vitamin C. Innuit and other VLC populations mitigate the last too by eating nose to tail. (Blood is high in electrolytes, some other animal parts high in vitamin C). Vitamin C also mitigates some of the stone issues. If i was VLC or zero carb, id supplement with vitamin C and get in some electrolytes, or eat nose to tail, to emulate this.

7cf9f5b08a41ecf2a2d2bc0b31ea6fa0

(4176)

on August 13, 2012
at 02:57 PM

long run it's bad

61844af1187e745e09bb394cbd28cf23

(11058)

on August 13, 2012
at 01:10 PM

Care to expand? VLC is very necessary for me.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on August 14, 2012
at 04:07 AM

Its bad Mmmmm-kay....cause like its bad mmmmmkay.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on August 13, 2012
at 03:01 PM

By the same token, any nutrient-excluding diet eaten obsessively is bad. Ancestral diet was variable, and the obsession was with finding something to eat, not what to eat.

0bc04a2ee661857e8458df34646e70ef

(319)

on August 14, 2012
at 03:15 PM

Jaminet has a great series on this very topic: http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/11/dangers-of-zero-carb-diets-i-can-there-be-a-carbohydrate-deficiency/ TL;DR, ketogenic diets are not without side-effects.

0a9ad4e577fe24a6b8aafa1dd7a50c79

(5150)

on August 14, 2012
at 12:07 AM

It takes a huge leap of faith to call carbs "nutrients."

7cf9f5b08a41ecf2a2d2bc0b31ea6fa0

(4176)

on August 15, 2012
at 11:34 AM

@JayJay um, when did i say carbs were bad? I think I said the exact opposite

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 15, 2012
at 12:39 AM

I cant really comment on here mucous deficiency idea though. And I am not saying keto diets are optimal or that they arent. They certainly seem to be sustainable when the massai or innuit do them, and we must have coped alright during the stone age, but there may be nutritional issues as above, that we arent used to dealing with in the modern age.

61844af1187e745e09bb394cbd28cf23

(11058)

on August 13, 2012
at 03:06 PM

That's an awfully broad brushstroke, HuntingBears. No, "it" isn't bad in the long-run. Many thrive on a VLC diet. Others, not so much.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on August 14, 2012
at 07:35 PM

@Hunting.....You don't think a random "carbs is bad news IMO" would generate a down vote with no explanation about why they are bad in this particular context? You earned it.

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