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Confused about fruits.... sorry if this is a common and polemic topic... I read some terrible things about fruits producing cancer and other stuff. Does paleo allow fruit? In what quantities? Can I enjoy apples?

Commented on November 20, 2013
Created November 15, 2013 at 6:25 PM

ontology

6044d623688f4fe69133bab95c3ae3b9

(10)

on November 20, 2013
at 03:47 PM

I've enjoyed the material and forums at athlete.io

They have all different opinions from the users and I think it gives a good spectrum of carb usage. I believe carbs can be used safely but used incorrectly can lead to major issues in not only weight but overall health. I love fruit but I don't find myself craving more than 1 or 2 handfuls a day...

Medium avatar

(15)

on November 20, 2013
at 03:45 PM

We got the answer, his excessive sport regime wrecked it, messing up his thyroid and getting him into a stressed state. Who honestly thinks that 3-4 hours of exercise a day is healthy?

Medium avatar

(15)

on November 20, 2013
at 03:43 PM

This study was predesigned to give the result it wanted. No conclusions can be drawn from that, other than PUFA+Grain diet is not very healthy (who was surprised by that?). Heck you can even make the conclusion that fruits and fructose are healthy since the other diet was high in them, and isn't that the topic of discussion here?

Medium avatar

(15)

on November 20, 2013
at 03:42 PM

The study I posted is not a review but a randomized controlled trial.

Thanks for the pig study. Unfortunately it is completely worthless. They compared a ridicoulously restricted diet of only cereal swine feed + rapeseed oil with a highly varied diet of whole fruits, vegetables, meat and underground tubers (without any added oils).

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on November 20, 2013
at 01:35 PM

Stop looking at the DNA level, that's pointless (as I pointed out humans and bananas are 50% similar, should we attempt photosynthesis?)

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on November 20, 2013
at 08:16 AM

I think your calc is a bit off... four lbs of apples is ~950 calories nearly all from sugar. Less than 30% of daily calories? I guess if you're eating 3200 calories, I'm closer to 2000, but still that's still a lot of sugar. We're talking about ~ 8+ apples. A single apple and maybe another fruit or berries would be more reasonable. Four lbs of apples on a daily basis is not paleo.

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on November 20, 2013
at 07:58 AM

>>>There are many studies showing the effectiveness of low-fat high-carb diets<<< I asked for links not hand waving.The paper you linked to is a lot to digest...:) I'll have to re-read a number of time but it appears to be a review of multiple studies as opposed to a study itself? Also none of the diets reflect the one that Attia or I used....none are high enough in fat & low enough in carb. :(

Here's the pig study http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/3/1/39

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on November 20, 2013
at 07:43 AM

By tweaking my diet to slow carb / no refined carbs; sugar, no food with added sugar, minimal prepared food, no wheat, bread, potato, no grains, no soda (diet or regular), no fruit juice, no dried fruit, minimal fruit (berries over 'regular' fruit), minimal dairy (fermented or just cream ok). I ate meat, fish, chix, eggs, above ground veggies...lots of spinach & broc!

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on November 20, 2013
at 07:43 AM

Read his blog...look at the data. What he did, I did as well w/o major ketosis, it worked for me. I did it before I found his blog.

About 18 months ago I was 220 at 6'. In six months I was 190 & lost 3" off my waist.

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on November 20, 2013
at 07:35 AM

He gradually changed his diet from an athlete SAD (high complex carbohydrates, high protein, and low fat) to low carb / high fat. It work and it mirrors my results... I cannot argue with good results.

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on November 20, 2013
at 07:34 AM

I'm not sure what messed up his metabolism. But according to his blog, he went from 160 & 10% BF in high school to 220 & 20% BF while exercising 3 to 4 hours per day! I guess he lost the genetic lottery wrt to metabolism. He was hardly a junk food eating couch potato! http://eatingacademy.com/why-i-decided-to-lose-weight http://eatingacademy.com/why-i-decided-to-lose-weight

Medium avatar

(1097)

on November 20, 2013
at 03:31 AM

Honestly? This makes sense. Too bad I'm adopted. I'm totally caucasian-looking but tan easily. On the flip side, I've heard that my body type is more commonly found up north.

56c28e3654d4dd8a8abdb2c1f525202e

(1822)

on November 20, 2013
at 03:23 AM

PS. Sorry for the comment out of order. I have eaten insects. Please google them. They are far more nutritious than meat.

56c28e3654d4dd8a8abdb2c1f525202e

(1822)

on November 20, 2013
at 03:18 AM

In the new PH version, I can not comment or post at all from computers where I have NoScript installed. At any rate, four lbs of fruits a day leaves a lot of room for omnivory. It is less than 30% of calories.

543a65b3004bf5a51974fbdd60d666bb

(4493)

on November 20, 2013
at 12:12 AM

i'm gonna have to look in to this more.

i'm thinking, we must be able to add to fat cells (store fat) without insulin, otherwise zero carbers would have no way to store fat, fat levels would drop too low & result in death.

or would zero carbers be relying on protein to stimulate insulin.

(more things for me to google later today)

543a65b3004bf5a51974fbdd60d666bb

(4493)

on November 19, 2013
at 10:40 PM

my query was actually to @BobK, when i said/asked...

I've not had a chance to go thru the Attia blog myself yet...will try & get to it.

What did mess up his (Attia's) metabolism (assuming it was messed up & it's discussed on his blog)?

(i got the impression Bob may know from his comment that started with "What messed up his metabolism?...", which i took as a rhetorical question)

Medium avatar

(15)

on November 19, 2013
at 09:06 PM

Fructose doesn't glycate your tissue if you're not a diabetic mouse ;) It's not dangerous on a low-PUFA diet and has several metabolic benefits.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on November 19, 2013
at 08:38 PM

Who says we eat much PUFAs? Paleo fats are mostly saturated and MUFAs. How much PUFA can you find in Kerrygold, or coconut oil? What, you mean the n3's in my salmon - I don't cook it in fish oil? And let's not forget your beloved fructose is the worst glycator. Please, you're a smart guy, don't go all non-linear on us with the horseshit.

Medium avatar

(15)

on November 19, 2013
at 08:09 PM

Sorry I got you wrong, I thought you meant convincing me ;)

2eb1b3e896624be5506029e3fec3e9e2

(10)

on November 19, 2013
at 07:51 PM

what on earth are you talking about? i never ridiculed anyone but BobK

Medium avatar

(15)

on November 19, 2013
at 07:37 PM

Glycation is not an issue in insulin sensitive people. By the way, PUFAs are much more potent in glycating and damaging proteins than sugars.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on November 19, 2013
at 07:26 PM

And what does glucose circulating around for a long time do? Ever hear of glycation?

Medium avatar

(15)

on November 19, 2013
at 06:50 PM

You have just ridiculed yourself, and along with that many other paleo dieters that have both the cognitive capacity and the open heart to approach this question in a scientific, and not scaremongering, manner.

Medium avatar

(15)

on November 19, 2013
at 06:46 PM

You talk like "fat circulating around" is a good thing, while this phenomenon triggers all kinds of degenerative stress responses.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on November 19, 2013
at 06:39 PM

Even better choose wild fruit.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on November 19, 2013
at 06:35 PM

+1 for Taubes and his little pot belly.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on November 19, 2013
at 06:32 PM

Some people consider Taubes and his fructose theory paleo.

2eb1b3e896624be5506029e3fec3e9e2

(10)

on November 19, 2013
at 06:23 PM

you'll never convince him. billions of people eating carbs every day without gaining weight isn't enough. studies showing carbs are not more fattening carlorie-for-calorie than fat isn't enough. the whole thing is a conspiracy theory, on par with holocaust deniers and chemtrails.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on November 19, 2013
at 06:20 PM

I can verify that I can't reply to a different answer in a comment, and yet I am logged in. Hitting submit just sits there forever. I just tried, apparently it worked for this answer, but not the other.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on November 19, 2013
at 06:08 PM

We do things like fidget or go into thermogenesis to burn off excess calories if our metabolism isn't broken, in order to get rid of excess calories. If you eat pure fat - such as just coconut oil, no insulin is triggered at all, and the newly ingested fat just circulates around until something, such as muscle tissue uses it. So, no that's not true for food in general.

56c28e3654d4dd8a8abdb2c1f525202e

(1822)

on November 19, 2013
at 03:59 PM

And yet, amongst mammals I do not see a clear case of similar DNA/diametrically opposite diets. You might make a case for rabbits/mice, but at least in that case we can see the very specialized digestive strategy of rabbits (reinvesting their own excrement).

Medium avatar

(15)

on November 19, 2013
at 03:54 PM

People still get plenty of fat, despite all the low fat products that are lying in the shelves. Yes I am interested in that study. There are many studies showing the effectiveness of low-fat high-carb diets. While low-carb diets are more effective in the short term (6 months - 1 year), longer follow up (2 years+) shows that they are just as bad/good as any other diet. It just shows that diets generally are a flawed business (reduce calories too much -> mess up your metabolism). Example here: http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0804748

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on November 19, 2013
at 03:28 PM

Show me the data that confirms high carb/ low fat is effective for losing fat & maintaining a healthy weight.

Interested in the pig study or not?

At least we agree on "blame it on the vast increase of cheap, processed and easily-palatable food"<<

Not sure I agree with this part "(which are high-fat high-carb mostly)".... I see a LOT of "Low Fat" products that are loaded with sugar.

Medium avatar

(0)

on November 19, 2013
at 02:29 PM

So the inside will be intact for that long due to wax. Still i think it's better to stick to organic fruits when eating the peel. Just in case.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on November 19, 2013
at 01:47 PM

Humans also share 50% of their DNA with bananas. Shared DNA means nothing really. And I'm not saying that fruit for humans is bad, not at all, but the argument that because pre-humans or primates eat fruit does not necessarily mean that humans necessarily should eat fruit. Paleos should remind themselves that the idea of eating what/how our ancestors ate is a hypothesis/guideline, not a law/rule.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on November 19, 2013
at 01:23 PM

Nothing so nefarious, just: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_waxing

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on November 19, 2013
at 01:21 PM

I've never observed PH to be broken. When I cannot comment, I usually have been logged out for some reason, double check that.

Medium avatar

(15)

on November 19, 2013
at 12:57 PM

Please show. High carb/low fat doesn't work because people are not doing it. The average american diet is effectively a high-fat high-carb diet. In other words, people simply eat too much (and too much crap). You can't blame that on carbs, sugars or fats, but you can blame it on the vast increase of cheap, processed and easily-palatable foods (which are high-fat high-carb mostly).

I can't speculate on what messed up his metabolism without knowing his prior diet.

543a65b3004bf5a51974fbdd60d666bb

(4493)

on November 19, 2013
at 08:10 AM

"What messed up his metabolism?"...

I've not had a chance to go thru the Attia blog myself yet...will try & get to it.

What did mess up his metabolism (assuming it was messed up & it's discussed on his blog)?

543a65b3004bf5a51974fbdd60d666bb

(4493)

on November 19, 2013
at 07:56 AM

unless the body requires the same or more cals at the time they are being absorbed (circulating in the blood), surely they have to be stored to be used later. that's one of the thing i like about being 'fat adapted'...that i can go without food for long periods without feeling hungry

543a65b3004bf5a51974fbdd60d666bb

(4493)

on November 19, 2013
at 07:56 AM

"When you eat high carb (to the point of triggering insulin) and high fat together, all you'll do is store that fat instead of burning it - that's what insulin does: it tells our fat cells to store whatever nutrients are available in fat and muscle cells"

isn't this kinda of true for food in general, i mean it's not as if we instantly burn each calorie as it gets 'absorbed' (prob wrong terminology).

543a65b3004bf5a51974fbdd60d666bb

(4493)

on November 19, 2013
at 07:50 AM

trying to post a comment, back soon....

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on November 19, 2013
at 07:06 AM

What messed up his metabolism? If high carb is so great why are so many people developing T2D? If high carb / low fat works, why is obesity in adults & children epidemic? I've seen his data. I've seen the same thing work for me. Perhaps you could show me data that indicate otherwise. Would you be interested in a research paper that more or less compares paleo vs SAD (grain based) for pigs? or would that be considered lame?

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on November 19, 2013
at 06:58 AM

You got part of that right... humans have a short large intestine & a long small intestine. Other primates are more or less opposite. They possess greatly enhanced ability to digest vegetable matter... humans do not.

56c28e3654d4dd8a8abdb2c1f525202e

(1822)

on November 19, 2013
at 04:43 AM

4 lbs of fruits (max) a day is not fruitarian. It is barely 600 Kcal, after you include some colon fermentation. Where do you think the other 1600 Kcal come from?

Medium avatar

(15)

on November 18, 2013
at 02:02 PM

He was overweight with a messed up metabolism and going VLC helped him lose weight. That lead him to erroneously generalize that all carbs are bad and he started a blog and a organisation around it that promotes this one-sided idea (which btw shouldnt be called NuSI but LowCarbSI because that is what it is). Just because he had a problem with nutrition, doesn't mean that 6 billion other people on this world can't cope with carbs.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on November 18, 2013
at 11:31 AM

Jeez, what's with all the fruitarians, don't they have their own forums to hang out on? You don't find me trolling on their hangouts, why do they troll here?

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on November 18, 2013
at 02:41 AM

I figure if a guy is educated as an engineer, went to Stanford MD school, did his surgical residency at Johns Hopkins, is an amateur athlete & does open ocean 20+ mile swims and has applied this education, skill set and determination to investigating nutrition then he's a lot more credible than 30bananasaday.

So if I link to research papers, you'll feel they're in the realm as 30bananasaday?

His arguments & data make sense to me. vamos a ver

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on November 17, 2013
at 08:55 PM

Bragging on the internet… always works!

Medium avatar

(15)

on November 17, 2013
at 07:13 PM

Peter Attia doesnt bring forth any meaningful arguments, his posts are exactly what grapestreetcrip meant with "mental gymnastics with the evidence". I don't see a need to reply to them.

Also linking to other's people blog posts is pretty lame. Or shall I start linking to 30bananasaday blog posts in rebuttal?

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on November 17, 2013
at 03:44 AM

@GrapestreetCrip88

I'll take Peter Attia's science based nutrition recommendations over yours any day.

Oh, btw.. he's done the Catalina / SoCal swim .... both ways, on different days.

Read, study & understand his blog ....."this whole high fat moderate carb anti sugar stuff" will no longer be puzzling to you. Performance is great but performance & science is better.

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on November 17, 2013
at 03:36 AM

GC88 Your weight lifting numbers are impressive but are meaningless in the context of understanding nutrition & performance. Peter Attia's science & athletic background makes you look foolish. Educate yourself..... http://eatingacademy.com/dr-peter-attia http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/is-sugar-toxic http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/how-can-carbohydrate-restriction-be-healthy-if-it-means-limiting-natural-foods-like-fruits-and-vegetables

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on November 17, 2013
at 03:32 AM

@Bukowski you never seem to reply to questions concerning your positions

Sugar is problematic in the 1st world & becoming so worldwide http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/how-can-carbohydrate-restriction-be-healthy-if-it-means-limiting-natural-foods-like-fruits-and-vegetables

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on November 17, 2013
at 03:31 AM

@Bukowski you never seem to reply to questions concerning your positions

Sugar is problematic in the 1st world & becoming so worldwide... modern fruit is nearly the same http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/how-can-carbohydrate-restriction-be-healthy-if-it-means-limiting-natural-foods-like-fruits-and-vegetables http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/is-sugar-toxic

56c28e3654d4dd8a8abdb2c1f525202e

(1822)

on November 16, 2013
at 07:00 PM

Humans evolved from pre-humans. Their DNA is 99+% the chimp DNA. It seems incredible that what is good for chimps is bad for us. The smaller gut makes us eat more meat and preformed fats, but the staple foods must be the same (or very close, in the case of roots).

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on November 16, 2013
at 04:19 PM

Bacterial produced vitamins (B12/K2) aren't absorbed because they're produced in the gut beyond the point where they're absorbed. Also, pre-humans might have evolved enhanced color vision because of fruit, pre-humans also had tails.

56c28e3654d4dd8a8abdb2c1f525202e

(1822)

on November 16, 2013
at 03:55 PM

I eat less now, about four apples plus one banana and one kiwi, as I eat roots/tubers every day, once or twice a day. Still, I don't digest as well if the meal is not ended with a piece of fruit.

Medium avatar

(15)

on November 16, 2013
at 11:31 AM

"Seriously anyone who says fruit makes you fat of fruit is bad for you is doing some pretty big mental gymnastics with studies to try and push an agenda, whether a book they sell or an idea they promote." Word!

Medium avatar

(15)

on November 16, 2013
at 11:27 AM

Paleohacks, the only place in the interwebs were good advice gets down voted.

Suggestion: Always read paleohacks from bottom to top, then you'll always read the most reasonable advice first.

Medium avatar

(1097)

on November 16, 2013
at 04:04 AM

Aha. Well, that answers things then. One day we'll go picking our own apples and things. Probably when we have more room than a one bedroom apartment. But never that much fruit in one day, certainly. Still, if it works for you. :)

E42df6ff885d9d40f63836ce804d9e8e

(25)

on November 16, 2013
at 03:24 AM

great advice, and totally applicable to a large swath of people

/sarcasm

Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57

(995)

on November 16, 2013
at 03:12 AM

Every time fruit consumption comes up... haha.

Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57

(995)

on November 16, 2013
at 02:39 AM

Impressive numbers mang. You can eat whatever you want, but a high sugar and high saturated fat diet together with CAFO meats is anything but the most well rounded diet.

Lets compare computer programming and brain challenges and come tell me what is good advise.

Medium avatar

on November 16, 2013
at 02:36 AM

when you squat over 500lbs bench 400, 675lb deadlift and can overhead press 1.5xbodyweight, come tell me what is good advise.

56c28e3654d4dd8a8abdb2c1f525202e

(1822)

on November 16, 2013
at 02:35 AM

Apples bought in bushels are not so expensive. You have to sort them then (if you do that work, instead of the farmer, the price goes down). Tomorrow I will have to start a couple of gallons of apple cider vinegar with the discarded apples. To keep them I have a spare freezer, which I keep at 38F with the help of a brewing thermostat. In May they are still prime.

Medium avatar

(0)

on November 16, 2013
at 02:34 AM

I'm sorry, Matt. I thought the old style writing should be enough sign of sarcasm.

Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57

(995)

on November 16, 2013
at 02:28 AM

Bad advise is bad.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on November 16, 2013
at 01:43 AM

Orthodox paleo? That means starving from lack of any foods available in the paleolithic. Geez. Fruit sugar is bad? I mean, I don't think I've seen ANY paleo guru/book recommending eliminating fruit.

Medium avatar

(1097)

on November 16, 2013
at 01:33 AM

*dies* I wish I could eat that. Or, well, afford that. Or, well... both. Tell me, where do you store this?! LOL

Medium avatar

(1097)

on November 16, 2013
at 12:25 AM

Good point re: low intake. I think 75-100 gram carb a day is reasonable for people trying to lose weight and control insulin. So, one cup potato/sweet potato/taro/yuca/whatever for starch = 40 g, 1 apple or banana = ~27 g, 1 cup berries = 17 g, 84 g plus whatever minimal carbs come from other veggies, = 100 grams. So that's two fruits a day! Pretty dang low, but do-able.

OP, eat your apples!

Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57

(995)

on November 15, 2013
at 09:01 PM

"Equal or higher omega 3" might be pushing it. I think 1/2 to 1/3rd the n-3 as n-6 is a more realistic goal.

Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57

(995)

on November 15, 2013
at 08:42 PM

Fruit it up. About 1lb (0.45kg) a day is fine. Some eat less for various reasons (FODMAPs)

For apples all of the good stuff is in the skin, and unless it's organic that's also where the pesticides are. (washed organic apple skins, FTW)

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12 Answers

0
56c28e3654d4dd8a8abdb2c1f525202e

(1822)

on November 20, 2013
at 12:45 AM

Four lbs of apples is about 27 grams of pectin, close to the suggested intake of 30 grams of fermentable fiber. I recognize in my own experience the positive properties of apples on guts. a little over a lb of cold, boiled potatoes will give you the same amount in resistant starches. I recognize the value of day-after potatoes, too. But why not have both? The calorie counter will still be below 1000, plenty of room for meat and fats and a bowl of inulin-rich radicchio. Also, these days I am eating a lot of drops (apples unfit for selling). You peel them, quarter them, and cook them with just a bit of water until they turn mushy. I recommend this to anyone, with a good bowl of soup, for soothing any irritated intestine. Also when living in Brazil my go-to fruits were guava, papaya, and bananas. Unconsciously, I must be attracted to fermentable fibers. The same boiled apples, cooked with a handful of cranberries, are a great side dish for anything pork.

0
543a65b3004bf5a51974fbdd60d666bb

(4493)

on November 19, 2013
at 07:47 AM

i cannot post a comment for @raydawg under the answer either at the moment, so re this bit,

"When you eat high carb (to the point of triggering insulin) and high fat together, all you'll do is store that fat instead of burning it - that's what insulin does: it tells our fat cells to store whatever nutrients are available in fat and muscle cells" excerpt from @raydawg answer, isn't this kinda of true for food in general, i mean it's not as if we instantly burn each calorie as it gets 'absorbed' (prob wrong terminology). unless the body requires the same or more cals at the time they are being absorbed (circulating in the blood), surely they have to be stored to be used later. that's one of the things i like about being 'fat adapted'...the fact i can go without food for so long without feeling hungry

0
576dc803ed0dfa3616509e20f515d070

on November 18, 2013
at 07:50 PM

If you think about it, the only food that is really "meant" to be eaten is actually FRUIT - is it not?

  • Fruit has evolved so that animals like us eat it.
  • Plants themselves don't want to be eaten hence the "anti-nutrients" they contain.
  • The same goes for their seeds [grains] obviously and because these can be eaten in much more densely concentrated doses, if these "anti-nutrients" are a problem you would think the seeds would therefore be even more of a problem.
  • Animals certainly do not want to be eaten.

Now saying all that, if you look at other animals, all of the above are eaten without problems as different animals have ADAPTED to eating the different types of food. Therefore is the fact something is "meant" to be eaten even relevant?

I think the more important question is just how long does it take to adapt to eating different things? This basically forms the whole premise behind paleo i know - that we are adapted to eat meat and vegetables and some fruit but not so well adapted to grains etc. But i think the big problem behind paleo is that the time to adapt MAY be shorter than we realize and/or also the fact that different people across the World have adapted differently.

Therefore there is no ONE FITS ALL PALEO DIET. One man's paleo is another man's neolithic etc.

Before i ramble too much, i think it may go something like this: We started off eating lots of fruit. Some of us started to move away from the fruit to places where there was less fruit so we started to eat other "stuff". Therefore we started to adapt to that other stuff and because we were eating less fruit we may have started to lose the ability to eat so much fruit.

So the long and short of it is -

Because humans have moved all over the place and now adapted, at least to some extent, to eating almost everything else, the answer to how much fruit you should eat is not a simple one.

In my opinion i think your latitude and position on the Earth may actually be of some help. For some reason i think sunlight and climate affect how much fruit we can eat.

Also i think your genetic heritage [if that is the right term] plays a big role. I think people with more of a Northern latitude heritage may not be so suited to so much fruit as someone with a more Southerly heritage.

I think the way paleo stands as it is, it is actually best suited to people of a Northern genetic heritage. I know paleo and primal are just meant to be a guideline etc but i am talking in general and how the average person perceives it.

[I haven't even considered the fact that just because you can digest something doesn't mean it is good for you lol - maybe not being able to digest "poisons" such as fructose could be a good thing lol - if you aren't digesting fructose then how can it damage your liver? - the easiest thing to "digest" for just about most people is glucose - does this mean anything?]

Medium avatar

(1097)

on November 20, 2013
at 03:31 AM

Honestly? This makes sense. Too bad I'm adopted. I'm totally caucasian-looking but tan easily. On the flip side, I've heard that my body type is more commonly found up north.

0
96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on November 18, 2013
at 04:46 PM

@glib was meant as a comment, but PH is broken again)

I'm sure you could also eat two dozen jelly donuts 3x a day, or a bucket of twinkies. Doesn't mean it would be a healthy practice.

Since you're talking about chimps, while we have a very distant relative in common, we are not chimps - even so, despite fruitarian propaganda, chimps aren't fruitarians, they're omnivores and they're very skilled hunters as documented in this article, possibly driving them to extinction, and you can see it in this video.

They also eat termites and other insects.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on November 19, 2013
at 01:21 PM

I've never observed PH to be broken. When I cannot comment, I usually have been logged out for some reason, double check that.

0
96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on November 18, 2013
at 11:50 AM

1. Don't confuse the effects of fructose, which in large quantities is harmful with eating a reasonable amount of fruit.

2. Only eat fruit when it's in season to your locality. That probably will mean, no bananas in the winter, and for most cases, no bananas at all if you don't live in a tropical region where they grow.

3. Generally fruits are available ripe at the end of summer, eat them in that time frame, with maybe the exception of berries which are available earlier. Fructose and fruit bingeing is a signal to our bodies that says "Winter is coming, better store as much as we can in fat, because we may have to face periods of fasting and starvation." In a modern environment, we don't have periods of fasting and starvation, so high fruit (and high carb) consumption is a recipe for gaining lots of fat, with no opportunity to lose it.

4. Do not eat fruit and fat together, (except in the case of things like avocados which are fruit.) When you eat high carb (to the point of triggering insulin) and high fat together, all you'll do is store that fat instead of burning it - that's what insulin does: it tells our fat cells to store whatever nutrients are available in fat and muscle cells. Muscle cells have a limit as to how much they can store, fat cells can grow without limit, do the math.

5. The people you see here telling you to eat tons of it have an agenda. They aren't paleo, they're fruitarians, which for some reason have decided it would be fun to troll here. You can tell by their recommendations to eat tons of fruit, avoid meat, their bad science ignoring two million years of evolution including several ice ages, and low scores and the tons of comments telling them they're wrong. Shame on them for trolling here.

Perhaps it's just another sign that Paleo is becoming more mainstream, and they're jealous and have nothing better to do than take their marching orders from their durian riding 30 bananas a day eating leader, like lemmings.

I'm sure they think they're doing wonderful things for themselves, and they probably feel wonderful from the sugar rush they get, which probably explains their bad behavior here. Think Beavis and Butthead where Beavis ingests a ton of candy bars and becomes The Great Cornholio.

I'm not against eating fruit, nor carbs, but I do fall lower on the carb intake spectrum. Keep it under 200g/day, especially under 100g/day if you're trying to lean out. Normally I try to eat something like half a cup of berries a day, or half a cup of white rice, or perhaps a medium yam or small potato as my source of starch.

6. There was something somewhere, I recall vaguely about fructose reacting with omega 3 in the liver causing carcinogenic pathways, but for the life of me, I can't find a reference to it. Take that with a grain of salt, perhaps it was here:

http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/04/omega-3-fats-angiogenesis-and-cancer-part-i/

Edit - since I can't reply in a comment to the answer about how fruit is anticarcinogenic.

Fruit contains glucose and fructose, both of which are known to feed cancer cells. Doesn't matter. What matters is that fruit co-evolved with the animals that ate it in order for their seed to be spread. It doesn't mean that it has a will and intends that we eat it, or that it's beneficial to humans on purpose - it's simply another accident of evolution.

As an aside, want proof? Look up poisonous berries - that's right, they are fruit which will hurt 
you or kill you if you eat it, and yet, certain animals are evolved to do so, but we cannot. 
i.e. badgers can eat yew berries, but we cannot, etc.

We, in turn, evolved to use the signals from fructose ingestion to prepare for winter - also by accident of evolution. If we eat the whole fruit, in the amounts we evolved to do so, we don't get sick. Outside of this narrow band lies sickness.

543a65b3004bf5a51974fbdd60d666bb

(4493)

on November 19, 2013
at 07:50 AM

trying to post a comment, back soon....

543a65b3004bf5a51974fbdd60d666bb

(4493)

on November 19, 2013
at 07:56 AM

"When you eat high carb (to the point of triggering insulin) and high fat together, all you'll do is store that fat instead of burning it - that's what insulin does: it tells our fat cells to store whatever nutrients are available in fat and muscle cells"

isn't this kinda of true for food in general, i mean it's not as if we instantly burn each calorie as it gets 'absorbed' (prob wrong terminology).

Medium avatar

(10611)

on November 19, 2013
at 06:39 PM

Even better choose wild fruit.

543a65b3004bf5a51974fbdd60d666bb

(4493)

on November 19, 2013
at 07:56 AM

unless the body requires the same or more cals at the time they are being absorbed (circulating in the blood), surely they have to be stored to be used later. that's one of the thing i like about being 'fat adapted'...that i can go without food for long periods without feeling hungry

0
7e6cf5db3bc0dbc4b3ae0cbdf9233696

on November 16, 2013
at 05:42 PM

hi guys, wow, thank you very much. your answers are so useful. conclusion, i will keep enjoying my three apples a day (about 80 grams of carbs) since they are my main source of healthy carbs. THANKS A LOT!!!!!!

0
Medium avatar

on November 16, 2013
at 05:30 AM

Choose organic and I think you'll be fine. A friend of my put a non organic apple on her desk in the beginning of July, then went of for vacation. Came back a month later, the apple looked exactly the same, she decided to see how long it would take for it to loose it's "freshness" her last pic of the apple was yesterday. It still looks delicious ... and seeing this I decided to never eat non organic food again. Gross!!!! What on earth do they use on those granny smith!

Medium avatar

(0)

on November 19, 2013
at 02:29 PM

So the inside will be intact for that long due to wax. Still i think it's better to stick to organic fruits when eating the peel. Just in case.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on November 19, 2013
at 01:23 PM

Nothing so nefarious, just: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_waxing

0
Medium avatar

on November 16, 2013
at 02:14 AM

Eat as much fruit as you can. Seriously anyone who says fruit makes you fat of fruit is bad for you is doing some pretty big mental gymnastics with studies to try and push an agen da, whether a book they sell or an idea they promote.

I have known a few vegans from my time in certain circles and the ones who heavily rely on fruit for the majority of their food are lean, have amazing skin and are never ill, seriously they look and perform great.

I knew a guy who started at a boxing gym and he must of been 35% plus body fat and had horrible acne and just looked like a bag of shit.

He started doing the Vegan version of a whole foods diet and was obsessed with the dolce diet books and kept these little tubs of fruit with him to eat on his way home.

Anyway about a year in he was down to like 12 percent body fat had increased his lbm about 25 pounds i would guess from looking at him and his entire skin problem had gone.

He used to say he started off every morning with about 10 bananas, 1 scoop of hemp protein powder and about 3 spoons of cold pressed coconut oil. then from midday on he would consume as much fruit as he could, he would fry banana in coconut oil and blend berries and pour it over the top, he would make tonnes of smoothies and he felt amazing and went from a fat nerdy kid with no confidence to this really well adjusted confident guy who felt good and looked it.

I love my meat, more specifically steak. corn fed fatty steak. I feel great after a steak, I eat it after I lift weights and it satisfies some itch I have for blood after training. But if I had to choose between red meat and fruit I would have to choose fruit and just stick with poultry and seafood.

A high sugar fruit with a whack of coconut oil is the most well rounded, micronutrient dense food you can eat, for cheap and have taste amazing. Meat is fantastic, it is delicious and the moral arguments against meat are ridiculous, I am the antithesis of a vegan, however this whole high fat moderate carb anti sugar stuff is really puzzling to me.

Eat lots of fat, lots of sugar, lots of protein and feed your body and let it grow. People who think being thin is healthy are crazy, if cavemen could see their abdominals they were nowhere near as badass as the caveman with no abs, who was stronger, could sprint faster and could bash all the over cavemen about and take the females for himself.

Oh and Garry Taubes can kiss my 25% body fat ass and see who is healthier, more athletic and has more sustained energy :P

(that was a joke before someone thinks i hate Taubes because I disagree with him)

E42df6ff885d9d40f63836ce804d9e8e

(25)

on November 16, 2013
at 03:24 AM

great advice, and totally applicable to a large swath of people

/sarcasm

Medium avatar

(15)

on November 16, 2013
at 11:31 AM

"Seriously anyone who says fruit makes you fat of fruit is bad for you is doing some pretty big mental gymnastics with studies to try and push an agenda, whether a book they sell or an idea they promote." Word!

Medium avatar

(10611)

on November 19, 2013
at 06:35 PM

+1 for Taubes and his little pot belly.

Medium avatar

(15)

on November 16, 2013
at 11:27 AM

Paleohacks, the only place in the interwebs were good advice gets down voted.

Suggestion: Always read paleohacks from bottom to top, then you'll always read the most reasonable advice first.

Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57

(995)

on November 16, 2013
at 02:28 AM

Bad advise is bad.

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on November 17, 2013
at 03:36 AM

GC88 Your weight lifting numbers are impressive but are meaningless in the context of understanding nutrition & performance. Peter Attia's science & athletic background makes you look foolish. Educate yourself..... http://eatingacademy.com/dr-peter-attia http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/is-sugar-toxic http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/how-can-carbohydrate-restriction-be-healthy-if-it-means-limiting-natural-foods-like-fruits-and-vegetables

6044d623688f4fe69133bab95c3ae3b9

(10)

on November 20, 2013
at 03:47 PM

I've enjoyed the material and forums at athlete.io

They have all different opinions from the users and I think it gives a good spectrum of carb usage. I believe carbs can be used safely but used incorrectly can lead to major issues in not only weight but overall health. I love fruit but I don't find myself craving more than 1 or 2 handfuls a day...

0
56c28e3654d4dd8a8abdb2c1f525202e

(1822)

on November 16, 2013
at 01:26 AM

Fruits were so desirable for humans that they evolved color vision. Pectin is one of the three great partially digestible fibers, feeding good bacteria, and feeding you with extra minerals, extra B12, K2, and short chain fatty acids. Fruits are king for vitamin C and potassium. Difficult to advise you in detail, but I can eat 4 lbs of apples and watermelons, 2 lbs of grapes, pears, cantaloupe, papaya, and 1 lb a day of most every other fruit with no problem. In November, I usually buy (family of 3) ten bushels of storage apples.

Medium avatar

(1097)

on November 16, 2013
at 01:33 AM

*dies* I wish I could eat that. Or, well, afford that. Or, well... both. Tell me, where do you store this?! LOL

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on November 16, 2013
at 04:19 PM

Bacterial produced vitamins (B12/K2) aren't absorbed because they're produced in the gut beyond the point where they're absorbed. Also, pre-humans might have evolved enhanced color vision because of fruit, pre-humans also had tails.

56c28e3654d4dd8a8abdb2c1f525202e

(1822)

on November 16, 2013
at 02:35 AM

Apples bought in bushels are not so expensive. You have to sort them then (if you do that work, instead of the farmer, the price goes down). Tomorrow I will have to start a couple of gallons of apple cider vinegar with the discarded apples. To keep them I have a spare freezer, which I keep at 38F with the help of a brewing thermostat. In May they are still prime.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on November 18, 2013
at 11:31 AM

Jeez, what's with all the fruitarians, don't they have their own forums to hang out on? You don't find me trolling on their hangouts, why do they troll here?

0
Medium avatar

on November 16, 2013
at 12:00 AM

Can you eat fruits? Orthodox Paleo Approach: fruits like the ones we have nowadays weren't available in ye Golden Age of Yore; thus, thou shouldn't eat them. Besides, fruit sugar isn't good for you.

Modern Paleo: It's pretty hard to eat too much fruit sugar, except if your intake is in the order of 30 bananas a day.

Fruits are necessary, yes, because of vitamins and who knows which beneficial compounds; however, if you're trying to lose weight or control insulin resistance, metabolic syndrome or diabetes, I'd keep the intake low.

Medium avatar

(1097)

on November 16, 2013
at 12:25 AM

Good point re: low intake. I think 75-100 gram carb a day is reasonable for people trying to lose weight and control insulin. So, one cup potato/sweet potato/taro/yuca/whatever for starch = 40 g, 1 apple or banana = ~27 g, 1 cup berries = 17 g, 84 g plus whatever minimal carbs come from other veggies, = 100 grams. So that's two fruits a day! Pretty dang low, but do-able.

OP, eat your apples!

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on November 16, 2013
at 01:43 AM

Orthodox paleo? That means starving from lack of any foods available in the paleolithic. Geez. Fruit sugar is bad? I mean, I don't think I've seen ANY paleo guru/book recommending eliminating fruit.

0
Medium avatar

on November 15, 2013
at 08:49 PM

Fruit has antioxidants that help prevent cancer.

Some think too much sugar increases chances of cancer, and I agree! But that's added, refined sugar and HFCS. You eat the nutrients the body needds to metabolize sugar when you eat the WHOLE FRUIT. So, eat THE WHOLE FRUIT.

Love apples. You should, too.

Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57

(995)

on November 15, 2013
at 09:01 PM

"Equal or higher omega 3" might be pushing it. I think 1/2 to 1/3rd the n-3 as n-6 is a more realistic goal.

0
Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57

(995)

on November 15, 2013
at 08:45 PM

Fruit it up. About 1lb (0.45kg) a day is fine. Some eat less for various reasons (FODMAPs)

For apples all of the good stuff is in the skin, and unless it's organic that's also where the pesticides are. (washed organic apple skins, FTW)

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