6

votes

Someone Please Explain the difference between Liver Glycogen and Muscle Glycogen

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created December 20, 2011 at 6:52 PM

I'm interested in moderate Carb paleo with only tubers 1-2x/week PWO. Will I (23 yr old male,10 % BF) need starch on my off days to avoid ketosis by a bit?

Dfada6fe4982ab3b7557172f20632da8

(5332)

on December 21, 2011
at 02:14 AM

But what do you do if you don't get the response you're expecting? And as infallible as you'd like it to be, calorie restriction hasn't had a 100% success rate in weight loss cases where people have tried it. If all you've got is to keep telling them to eat less, you won't win them all.

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on December 21, 2011
at 01:53 AM

Caloric intake tends to vary more than caloric expenditure in my experience. Unless you're an endurance athlete most of your calories come from your basal metabolism, and how much non-exercise activity you do (things like cooking, cleaning, walking around, etc).

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on December 21, 2011
at 01:51 AM

I mean if you're not losing weight, lower calories a bit. Wait a couple weeks, readjust if necessary. Most people's expenditure won't vary too much on a week to week basis. I don't count calories, but I do know each of my meals is ~500-700kcals and I have 3-4 of them a day. If I was trying to lose weight, I would just keep it at 3 meals and make sure they stay closer to 500 than 700. I'm not saying it has to be perfect, but most people would benefit from calorie counting at least initially and once in a blue moon as a sort of 'audit.'

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on December 21, 2011
at 01:43 AM

Doesn't that depend on whether you find slicker city people more appealing than rougher country folk?

Dfada6fe4982ab3b7557172f20632da8

(5332)

on December 21, 2011
at 01:37 AM

Ah, you're getting the wrong end of my 'success' stick. You suggested people struggled to eat enough carbs for DNL on a high-fat diet, I was saying that only applies if you presume healthier food choices. And looking at calories certainly can help a lot of people work out what it an appropriate serving and how different foods compare, but what are they supposed to match their intake to? Simplifying the message can end up making more trouble.

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on December 21, 2011
at 01:27 AM

Thanks for the edit Andy. Outside of silly diets (no protein, super high trans fats) I'm not aware of food choice making a difference. But as you point out,food choice clearly influences overall food intake (oranges harder to overeat than cake). Healthy foods tend to make people lose weight since they are more satiating. On in/out, there are many people that have a hard time judging intake without at least trying to count calories for a while. It helps some people match intake better. I'm not clear on your 'there's millions..'. I don't think anyone loses weight on high fat/carb caloric excess.

082bf04a7486991c5e573a66f1404b3e

(813)

on December 20, 2011
at 09:13 PM

DurianRider... someone fetch me my gun -.-

Dfada6fe4982ab3b7557172f20632da8

(5332)

on December 20, 2011
at 08:52 PM

Depends what kind of foods you're eating though surely? There's millions of people who successfully combine a high fat, high carb diet, and insisting that there's no DNL seems daft and rather moot. They need to change their diet to better foods, and that makes it harder to eat a lot of both fat and carbs, it's not an argument for low fat per se though. And as far as in/out goes, I'd tend to express it more in terms of being aware of your actual reasons for eating. Why do they want to eat as much bacon as they can? I think that's a better root than the bare numbers argument.

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on December 20, 2011
at 08:41 PM

And in/out is a tool. Pick a healthy diet (whatever that means to you) and when you want to lose/gain more weight just realize quantity is everything. So using in/out you start to realize many of your calories come from bacon, and it might not be a bad idea to limit/change that. You don't need to count expenditure or consumption perfectly, but in my experience people don't stall because they mis-measure by 200kcal, they stall because they think they can eat as much bacon as they want (as it's not insulinogenic).

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on December 20, 2011
at 08:37 PM

Put most succinctly: DNL happens when carbohydrates alone cover your entire energy demands over an extended period of time. It has nothing to do with fat, per se, but it's pretty hard to eat that many carbs on a high fat diet.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on December 20, 2011
at 08:25 PM

@Dave S, but as much as I chant the virtues of fruit here on PH, I can't imagine eating more than 2 oranges or maybe a 2nd banana. Don't tell Durian.

Dfada6fe4982ab3b7557172f20632da8

(5332)

on December 20, 2011
at 08:24 PM

So in both cases, you end up with 100kcal of bodyfat being added. I don't understand the arguments that suggest you could go from 800kcal of both to adding another 1000kcal of carbs on top of that without gaining fat because DNL is *always* insignificant. That's because it's all a framing issue of course. Speaking of which, my objection to trying to simplify everything to calories in/calories out really is just that you can't quantify either number for pretty much any person in everyday life.

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on December 20, 2011
at 08:22 PM

Vagus nerve :) How fitting.

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on December 20, 2011
at 08:11 PM

I'm really a reasonable guy :)

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on December 20, 2011
at 08:09 PM

Let's not consider protein and say you need 1500kcal. What happens if I feed you 1600kcal of carbs and no fat? Well you start to increase glycogen content, but eventually use DNL to convert carbs to fat and begin to store them. Now let's say I feed you 800kcal of carbs and 800kcal of fat. You will not use DNL, but you will store 100kcal of the fat. Obviously if you eat 2000kcal of carbs and 2000kcal of fat you will both store dietary fat and DNL some more (and store that too).

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on December 20, 2011
at 08:09 PM

If you stimulate your Vegas nerve, you will soon be sporting a "new brunswick". Seriously, you're more likely to get laid in New Brunswick, but you'd rather get laid in Las Vegas.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on December 20, 2011
at 08:07 PM

It only takes 3 bananas or 4 oranges to get close to 100 grams CHO. If that's what you mean by "a lot" of fruit, then fine. When people say things like "a lot of fruit" I start to think of DurianRider...

Dfada6fe4982ab3b7557172f20632da8

(5332)

on December 20, 2011
at 08:02 PM

Hey look, we said almost the same thing! Except of course you digressed into your favourite soundbites whereas I digressed into mine. I'm not sure what high or low fat has to do with de novo lipogenesis though. Won't that simply occur after a given period of overconsumption of carbs (ie. once glycogen stores are full, which isn't necessarily going to take that long if you put your mind to it)?

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on December 20, 2011
at 08:02 PM

If you stimulate your Vegas nerve, you will soon be sporting a "new brunswick". Seriously, your more likely to get laid in New Brunswick, but you'd rather get laid in Vegas.

Dfada6fe4982ab3b7557172f20632da8

(5332)

on December 20, 2011
at 07:58 PM

Probably not doing it right then ;)

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on December 20, 2011
at 07:43 PM

It is not bad reaching that with fruit and some veg!

C8a5c6d2804326646bb274e491f7f21b

(534)

on December 20, 2011
at 07:42 PM

Andy, occasionally ketosis is cool,but I'm lean, young, and active- it doesn't feel good often

C8a5c6d2804326646bb274e491f7f21b

(534)

on December 20, 2011
at 07:41 PM

I definitely do better with about 100g-just wondering if its bad to reach that amount with alot of fruit and some veg

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on December 20, 2011
at 07:38 PM

Okay to be very precise you're correct! It's trying to get the body out of ketosis, because it wants to give the brain it's primary fuel. One day I'll edit it, or maybe I'll just forget :)

2c2349bc7af0fedb59a5fe99dac9fae2

(2707)

on December 20, 2011
at 07:34 PM

You don't "NEED" any starch. Can you benefit from it maybe? Some people just do better with carbs in their diet, so in that case you may want to play around with that a bit, and see how you feel. If you do not feel fully recovered next workout, that might be a clue to needing more carbs... or maybe just more rest. Once again you need to play around with it a bit.

2c2349bc7af0fedb59a5fe99dac9fae2

(2707)

on December 20, 2011
at 07:31 PM

"Ingested carbohydrates will go to the liver/brain first in an effort to get out of ketosis", I understand what you are saying, but I don't think the body is doing that to stay out of ketosis, but to give the brain its primary fuel which is carbohydrates. Semantics :)

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on December 20, 2011
at 07:28 PM

Yeah the one in Vegas is responsible for central effects such as ketosis, has an upper limit of 50g, and is responsible for many diseases with chronic overconsumption such as fatty vegas disease.

Dfada6fe4982ab3b7557172f20632da8

(5332)

on December 20, 2011
at 07:10 PM

Is there a particular reason you want to avoid ketosis?

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4 Answers

4
Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

on December 20, 2011
at 07:20 PM

Liver glycogen is glycogen stored in liver.

Muscle glycogen is glycogen stored in muscle.

Liver glycogen is the determinant of ketosis. When liver glycogen goes down there are effects that lead to increased hunger (for some), decreased anabolic tone, etc, which is why ketosis is not ideal for gaining muscle.

Muscle glycogen is for the most part trapped, it will not leave the muscle. It is a primary determinant of fuel substrate, meaning if you have a lot of muscle glycogen you burn that off. If you don't, you burn off fats.

Liver stores somewhere ~50g if I recall, muscle can store much more, especially with training (400-500g seems reasonable off the top of my head, although I can't remember exactly).

On a very low carb diet muscle glycogen status will go down, but it will never go down to nothing unless you add in a depletion workout (high intensity to force the muscle to use the last bits of glycogen).

Ingested carbohydrates will go to the liver/brain first as the brain is always the priority. However, after the brain's needs are met (~100g/day if able to depend solely on glucose), ingested carbohydrates go to the muscle. Believe it or not, acute overconsumption of carbohydrates does not go to fat, rather it lowers fat oxidation (due to insulin, glycogen status, etc) and therefore the fat you eat is more likely to be stored. In cases of prolonged high carb low fat diets, de novo lipogenesis will occur. This is nature's way of saying fuck you there's no free lunch, calories in vs out.

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on December 20, 2011
at 08:37 PM

Put most succinctly: DNL happens when carbohydrates alone cover your entire energy demands over an extended period of time. It has nothing to do with fat, per se, but it's pretty hard to eat that many carbs on a high fat diet.

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on December 20, 2011
at 08:09 PM

Let's not consider protein and say you need 1500kcal. What happens if I feed you 1600kcal of carbs and no fat? Well you start to increase glycogen content, but eventually use DNL to convert carbs to fat and begin to store them. Now let's say I feed you 800kcal of carbs and 800kcal of fat. You will not use DNL, but you will store 100kcal of the fat. Obviously if you eat 2000kcal of carbs and 2000kcal of fat you will both store dietary fat and DNL some more (and store that too).

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on December 20, 2011
at 08:41 PM

And in/out is a tool. Pick a healthy diet (whatever that means to you) and when you want to lose/gain more weight just realize quantity is everything. So using in/out you start to realize many of your calories come from bacon, and it might not be a bad idea to limit/change that. You don't need to count expenditure or consumption perfectly, but in my experience people don't stall because they mis-measure by 200kcal, they stall because they think they can eat as much bacon as they want (as it's not insulinogenic).

Dfada6fe4982ab3b7557172f20632da8

(5332)

on December 20, 2011
at 08:52 PM

Depends what kind of foods you're eating though surely? There's millions of people who successfully combine a high fat, high carb diet, and insisting that there's no DNL seems daft and rather moot. They need to change their diet to better foods, and that makes it harder to eat a lot of both fat and carbs, it's not an argument for low fat per se though. And as far as in/out goes, I'd tend to express it more in terms of being aware of your actual reasons for eating. Why do they want to eat as much bacon as they can? I think that's a better root than the bare numbers argument.

Dfada6fe4982ab3b7557172f20632da8

(5332)

on December 20, 2011
at 08:24 PM

So in both cases, you end up with 100kcal of bodyfat being added. I don't understand the arguments that suggest you could go from 800kcal of both to adding another 1000kcal of carbs on top of that without gaining fat because DNL is *always* insignificant. That's because it's all a framing issue of course. Speaking of which, my objection to trying to simplify everything to calories in/calories out really is just that you can't quantify either number for pretty much any person in everyday life.

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on December 20, 2011
at 08:11 PM

I'm really a reasonable guy :)

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on December 21, 2011
at 01:53 AM

Caloric intake tends to vary more than caloric expenditure in my experience. Unless you're an endurance athlete most of your calories come from your basal metabolism, and how much non-exercise activity you do (things like cooking, cleaning, walking around, etc).

Dfada6fe4982ab3b7557172f20632da8

(5332)

on December 21, 2011
at 01:37 AM

Ah, you're getting the wrong end of my 'success' stick. You suggested people struggled to eat enough carbs for DNL on a high-fat diet, I was saying that only applies if you presume healthier food choices. And looking at calories certainly can help a lot of people work out what it an appropriate serving and how different foods compare, but what are they supposed to match their intake to? Simplifying the message can end up making more trouble.

Dfada6fe4982ab3b7557172f20632da8

(5332)

on December 21, 2011
at 02:14 AM

But what do you do if you don't get the response you're expecting? And as infallible as you'd like it to be, calorie restriction hasn't had a 100% success rate in weight loss cases where people have tried it. If all you've got is to keep telling them to eat less, you won't win them all.

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on December 20, 2011
at 07:38 PM

Okay to be very precise you're correct! It's trying to get the body out of ketosis, because it wants to give the brain it's primary fuel. One day I'll edit it, or maybe I'll just forget :)

Dfada6fe4982ab3b7557172f20632da8

(5332)

on December 20, 2011
at 08:02 PM

Hey look, we said almost the same thing! Except of course you digressed into your favourite soundbites whereas I digressed into mine. I'm not sure what high or low fat has to do with de novo lipogenesis though. Won't that simply occur after a given period of overconsumption of carbs (ie. once glycogen stores are full, which isn't necessarily going to take that long if you put your mind to it)?

2c2349bc7af0fedb59a5fe99dac9fae2

(2707)

on December 20, 2011
at 07:31 PM

"Ingested carbohydrates will go to the liver/brain first in an effort to get out of ketosis", I understand what you are saying, but I don't think the body is doing that to stay out of ketosis, but to give the brain its primary fuel which is carbohydrates. Semantics :)

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on December 21, 2011
at 01:51 AM

I mean if you're not losing weight, lower calories a bit. Wait a couple weeks, readjust if necessary. Most people's expenditure won't vary too much on a week to week basis. I don't count calories, but I do know each of my meals is ~500-700kcals and I have 3-4 of them a day. If I was trying to lose weight, I would just keep it at 3 meals and make sure they stay closer to 500 than 700. I'm not saying it has to be perfect, but most people would benefit from calorie counting at least initially and once in a blue moon as a sort of 'audit.'

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on December 21, 2011
at 01:27 AM

Thanks for the edit Andy. Outside of silly diets (no protein, super high trans fats) I'm not aware of food choice making a difference. But as you point out,food choice clearly influences overall food intake (oranges harder to overeat than cake). Healthy foods tend to make people lose weight since they are more satiating. On in/out, there are many people that have a hard time judging intake without at least trying to count calories for a while. It helps some people match intake better. I'm not clear on your 'there's millions..'. I don't think anyone loses weight on high fat/carb caloric excess.

3
Dfada6fe4982ab3b7557172f20632da8

(5332)

on December 20, 2011
at 07:17 PM

Liver glycogen is stored in the liver, muscle glycogen is stored in the muscles. Typically there's a lot more storage available in the muscles than the liver, but if you deplete just one muscle then having glycogen stored in your other muscles isn't much help, you'll be needing to restock it from liver glycogen or whatever you have floating round your bloodstream. Of course it's not really as simple as that, but I'm not sure it matters anyway as the body of your question doesn't appear to relate to the header.

I don't know of any particularly good reason to make an effort to eat starch on days when you're not working out, but you could certainly afford more than a couple of potatoes a week and still be very much 'moderate' carb and you may find that easier. You'll still be using ketosis from time to time though, unless you set up an intravenous glucose drip.

3
25b139cc1954456d9ea469e40f984cd3

on December 20, 2011
at 07:05 PM

Sure. But first, can you explain to me the difference between a restaurant in Vegas and a restaurant in New Brunswick?

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on December 21, 2011
at 01:43 AM

Doesn't that depend on whether you find slicker city people more appealing than rougher country folk?

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on December 20, 2011
at 07:28 PM

Yeah the one in Vegas is responsible for central effects such as ketosis, has an upper limit of 50g, and is responsible for many diseases with chronic overconsumption such as fatty vegas disease.

Cf32992bfa1907147c7cdc451bba9c63

(2890)

on December 20, 2011
at 08:22 PM

Vagus nerve :) How fitting.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on December 20, 2011
at 08:09 PM

If you stimulate your Vegas nerve, you will soon be sporting a "new brunswick". Seriously, you're more likely to get laid in New Brunswick, but you'd rather get laid in Las Vegas.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on December 20, 2011
at 08:02 PM

If you stimulate your Vegas nerve, you will soon be sporting a "new brunswick". Seriously, your more likely to get laid in New Brunswick, but you'd rather get laid in Vegas.

0
Cf4576cbcc44fc7f2294135609bce9e5

on December 20, 2011
at 08:18 PM

both liver and muscle glycogen are water insoluble carbohydrate storage molecules made up of polymerized glucose in branched chains. its a great way to store excess calories because the body had very fast access to energy stored in this fashion without pissing them out of your blood. Nature is pretty awesome. the muscles store a lot and the liver stores less. glucagon a hormone will cause the liver to give its glucose up to the blood where as muscles hangs on to its own for personal use. its been 35 years since i had biochem so correct me if needed. now im going back up on my scaffolding to do some work.

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