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Wine, fasting, and Vit D? Asking all my questions at once!!

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created November 11, 2010 at 7:29 PM

Ok, so I started eating Paleo about 6 weeks ago. I am a 36 yr old male, and have weighed about 193-196 lbs while working out 4X a week for a few yrs. Never could drop the 15lbs of belly, and fat. I have dropped about 6 lbs and feel great since starting Paleo. However, here comes my question: I love my red wine, maybe too much. I drink at least a bottle a night, just typing that sounds bad. Is wine accepted in Paleo and any suggestions on modification/alternatives, etc? Question 2: Can someone please explain why fasting is good? Question 3: What do people think about Vit D supliments, and how much should I be taking? You don't have to answer all 3.

Thanks

Canadien Paleo Man.

4ebe345400fa2663483d40b0d4c25663

(211)

on December 01, 2010
at 04:56 AM

Fancy seeing you here SD!!

4ebe345400fa2663483d40b0d4c25663

(211)

on November 22, 2010
at 06:36 AM

Thanks everyone for your honest and helpful anwsers. I decided to take a big fat wine break (1yr), and read Robb's book. Little tough to drop the wine, but I know it is the right thing.

1568416ef28477d1fa29046218d83ddd

(6235)

on November 12, 2010
at 09:25 PM

I agree it is probably a lot more complex and once you hit part of the endocrine system you are probably hitting all of it, but I wanted to keep it simple and my understanding, having only taken basic physiology, is also pretty basic. This is basically the reasoning that led me to try it.

2f653fa504adc81612619106e7d1f65e

(455)

on November 12, 2010
at 09:03 PM

I have a belly bulge and now I think it could be my wine time at night ;-P

415ce5b8f88f4d762fa946f9f43d94b6

(564)

on November 12, 2010
at 07:20 PM

*alcohol is a little less toxic to the liver than _fructose_*

415ce5b8f88f4d762fa946f9f43d94b6

(564)

on November 12, 2010
at 07:19 PM

Lustig actually says that alcohol is a little less toxic to the liver than alcohol, since a portion of the alcohol is metabolized in the brain, but all of these numbers should be considered to be fuzzy anyway.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on November 12, 2010
at 07:15 PM

I like my red wine too. Studies seem to indicate better health outcomes for moderate drinkers (1-2 drinks) than both non-drinkers and heavier drinkers. See if you can abstain for a bit, then 1-2 glasses, 2 or 3 times a week should be okay... But, for a better opinion than mine, Stephan @WholeHealthSource - http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/search?q=ethanol

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on November 12, 2010
at 07:09 PM

I think there are a number of hormonal changes that occur during a fast that are probably important as well. A number of studies suggest that caloric restriction increases longevity (quite significantly) - at least in animal models. The theory is that IF (intermittent fasting) would provide similar benefits to caloric restriction without the annoying "being hungry all the time" part. Also, many paleo-peeps have used it to shed some serious poundage.

286a4ff7c362241c5c4b020df4972212

(1288)

on November 12, 2010
at 07:51 AM

I'm impressed you CAN drink a bottle of wine a night on Paleo - since going low or no carb my tolerance is about 2 glasses once or twice a wk!

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on November 11, 2010
at 09:40 PM

Also from Kresser (March 2010):here's a simple way to test for this. Test your 25D and 1,25D levels. Then supplement with 6-10,000 IU of D for 3-4 weeks. Then test your levels again. If 25D remains the same or decreases and 1,25D goes up significantly, then you may be unable to metabolize D. For more Paleo hacks: http://paleohacks.com/questions/5016/vitamin-d-friend-or-foe#ixzz150ofZBet

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on November 11, 2010
at 09:38 PM

Also from Kesser (March 2010): "here's a simple way to test for this. Test your 25D and 1,25D levels. Then supplement with 6-10,000 IU of D for 3-4 weeks. Then test your levels again. If 25D remains the same or decreases and 1,25D goes up significantly, then you may be unable to metabolize D." http://paleohacks.com/questions/5016/vitamin-d-friend-or-foe#ixzz150ofZBet

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on November 11, 2010
at 09:34 PM

Dan: That's fucking high. Andrew: Sun exposure in Iceland isn't sun exposure in Sudan. I'm sleepy. Good links. Shall explore.

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on November 11, 2010
at 09:05 PM

Kresser, Wolf, and the vitamin D council all shoot for around 50 to 75 ng/ml. The perfect health diet just looks for over 40 ng/ml.

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on November 11, 2010
at 08:59 PM

10 K. Test after a month.

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on November 11, 2010
at 08:58 PM

The vitamin D council recommends 5,000 IUs with no sun exposure and 2,000 with some sun exposure. Robb Wolf recommends 2,000 to 4,000. Chris Kesser and The Perfect Health Diet both refuse to give recommendations. They'll only work with blood levels. WAPF recommends roughly 4,000 IU. But they want you to be careful about pushing levels far past 35ng/ml. http://www.westonaprice.org/abcs-of-nutrition/168.html http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/are-some-people-pushing-their-vitamin-d-levels-too-high.html

4310630972b25b6ed4fbd0fe7a7201d0

(840)

on November 11, 2010
at 08:48 PM

2,000 IU is better than nothing, sure, but I don't do less than 5,000 IUs. I started supplementing when my levels were about 30ng/mL, 10,000 IU got me to 115 ng/mL. I backed it down to 5,000 IU and my level fell to 91 ng/mL over a 6 month period. Next blood test in a month so we'll see then what a year of 5,000 IU means for me.

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on November 11, 2010
at 08:29 PM

Could you provide me with some reasoning for that ? I think those doses are way too small to maintain a high (60) vitamin D level. I'm pretty sure Ayers and Dr. Davis both advocate 5K or so for maintenance

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on November 11, 2010
at 08:26 PM

Dr. B: Which levels are you aiming at with taking 1-2k UI ?

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on November 11, 2010
at 08:16 PM

Against deficiency it is inadequate. For maintenance it should be adequate.

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on November 11, 2010
at 08:06 PM

I'm pretty sure that 1-2 K doses are useless with people with Vitamin D deficiency or even when maintaining a ~60 ng/mL levels.

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12 Answers

best answer

5
8e24be38b5a77a7f85cd0d28d84c58f2

on November 11, 2010
at 08:17 PM

A bottle of wine every night is definitely a little over the top, so yes. You gotta get a handle on that. Also, drinking alcohol at night will affect 2 other key issues: 1. your sleep 2. your ability to BURN FAT. Just getting rid of the nightly wine binge will do wonders for your belly fat. But in moderation, red wine is acceptable. I strongly recommend Robb Wolf's new book, Paleo Solution. All the answers to your questions can be found there. It's a great resource... and no, I don't get royalties for sales, unfortunately... just a fan. :) Cheers!

2f653fa504adc81612619106e7d1f65e

(455)

on November 12, 2010
at 09:03 PM

I have a belly bulge and now I think it could be my wine time at night ;-P

4ebe345400fa2663483d40b0d4c25663

(211)

on November 22, 2010
at 06:36 AM

Thanks everyone for your honest and helpful anwsers. I decided to take a big fat wine break (1yr), and read Robb's book. Little tough to drop the wine, but I know it is the right thing.

best answer

1
98ba75faba12dd9a0d362d8e0fbe2d40

on November 30, 2010
at 04:31 PM

Way to go on cutting out wine...... it will help immensely. I can think of 12 reasons to stop. Also, the song, "Lead me" Go get 'em.

4ebe345400fa2663483d40b0d4c25663

(211)

on December 01, 2010
at 04:56 AM

Fancy seeing you here SD!!

11
62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on November 12, 2010
at 04:12 AM

Am I the only one who is going to say it? There is no kindness in sugar coating a problem. Setting aside the obvious fact of all those nonnutritive calories for a second, let's consider that a bottle of wine per night is not just 'liking' something. It's an addiction. My advice is to cut out all alcohol for a while at least and break your addiction. After that, keep consumption to only twice per week. If you can't keep it to twice a week (or keep finding excuses not to do it), then you will (or should) know for sure that you are an alcoholic. And that is not paleo!

4
D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on November 11, 2010
at 08:04 PM

a) A bottle a night is too much. Period. A glass or two, and you'll be fine but I'd encourage you to go a month or two without (or maybe a biweekly thing) to give your body a chance to heal. Try to keep the wine a couple hours away from bed time as the alcohol system shuts off the bodies ability to produce growth hormone which is needed in the first hours of sleep. If you can't go without, please cut down for your own sake.

b) I don't have a great answer.

c)Get your D levels tested. See if you're chronically low. My mom just got hers tested. She was rocking a 12 so her doctor bumped her up to a 20,000 IUs a day for a month. Typical dosage will be around 1,000 to 2,000 IUs (edit probably more like 2000 to 4000) depending on a number of factors. I personally use the vitamin d drops from Carlsons. It makes me feel like I'm not just popping a pill. You can use the money you save by cutting back on the wine to pay for the testing.

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on November 11, 2010
at 09:34 PM

Dan: That's fucking high. Andrew: Sun exposure in Iceland isn't sun exposure in Sudan. I'm sleepy. Good links. Shall explore.

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on November 11, 2010
at 09:38 PM

Also from Kesser (March 2010): "here's a simple way to test for this. Test your 25D and 1,25D levels. Then supplement with 6-10,000 IU of D for 3-4 weeks. Then test your levels again. If 25D remains the same or decreases and 1,25D goes up significantly, then you may be unable to metabolize D." http://paleohacks.com/questions/5016/vitamin-d-friend-or-foe#ixzz150ofZBet

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on November 11, 2010
at 08:16 PM

Against deficiency it is inadequate. For maintenance it should be adequate.

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on November 11, 2010
at 08:58 PM

The vitamin D council recommends 5,000 IUs with no sun exposure and 2,000 with some sun exposure. Robb Wolf recommends 2,000 to 4,000. Chris Kesser and The Perfect Health Diet both refuse to give recommendations. They'll only work with blood levels. WAPF recommends roughly 4,000 IU. But they want you to be careful about pushing levels far past 35ng/ml. http://www.westonaprice.org/abcs-of-nutrition/168.html http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/are-some-people-pushing-their-vitamin-d-levels-too-high.html

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on November 11, 2010
at 08:06 PM

I'm pretty sure that 1-2 K doses are useless with people with Vitamin D deficiency or even when maintaining a ~60 ng/mL levels.

4310630972b25b6ed4fbd0fe7a7201d0

(840)

on November 11, 2010
at 08:48 PM

2,000 IU is better than nothing, sure, but I don't do less than 5,000 IUs. I started supplementing when my levels were about 30ng/mL, 10,000 IU got me to 115 ng/mL. I backed it down to 5,000 IU and my level fell to 91 ng/mL over a 6 month period. Next blood test in a month so we'll see then what a year of 5,000 IU means for me.

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on November 11, 2010
at 09:05 PM

Kresser, Wolf, and the vitamin D council all shoot for around 50 to 75 ng/ml. The perfect health diet just looks for over 40 ng/ml.

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on November 11, 2010
at 08:29 PM

Could you provide me with some reasoning for that ? I think those doses are way too small to maintain a high (60) vitamin D level. I'm pretty sure Ayers and Dr. Davis both advocate 5K or so for maintenance

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on November 11, 2010
at 09:40 PM

Also from Kresser (March 2010):here's a simple way to test for this. Test your 25D and 1,25D levels. Then supplement with 6-10,000 IU of D for 3-4 weeks. Then test your levels again. If 25D remains the same or decreases and 1,25D goes up significantly, then you may be unable to metabolize D. For more Paleo hacks: http://paleohacks.com/questions/5016/vitamin-d-friend-or-foe#ixzz150ofZBet

2
415ce5b8f88f4d762fa946f9f43d94b6

(564)

on November 12, 2010
at 07:17 PM

According to Dr. Lustig (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM), the effects of fructose on your body are like alcohol without the buzz. He says most people can probably tolerate about 50g of fructose daily without serious metabolic effects. If you look at a bottle of wine (750ml ~= 750g) at 12% alcohol, that's about 90g of alcohol, or nearly two times the limit. As a member of the bottle-a-day club, the math doesn't please me either but I've been limiting the number of days per week that I have wine (I consume approximately zero fructose). I've been growing my selection of non-caffeinated teas as a substitute.

Vitamin D: Until I can get tested, I'm taking 10k IU/day, in 5k caps from Whole Foods. From what I've read this amount, while large, is well below toxicity levels. I haven't had any colds/flus/etc. in the 3 months since I started, and this is in a house with 3 school age kids and a teacher wife who bring home every bug in town.

415ce5b8f88f4d762fa946f9f43d94b6

(564)

on November 12, 2010
at 07:20 PM

*alcohol is a little less toxic to the liver than _fructose_*

415ce5b8f88f4d762fa946f9f43d94b6

(564)

on November 12, 2010
at 07:19 PM

Lustig actually says that alcohol is a little less toxic to the liver than alcohol, since a portion of the alcohol is metabolized in the brain, but all of these numbers should be considered to be fuzzy anyway.

2
1568416ef28477d1fa29046218d83ddd

(6235)

on November 12, 2010
at 01:39 AM

I will take a crack at IF, but this is super simple minded and you should, as always, do your own research.

Insulin stays active in your system for at least 6 to 8 hours after it is released in response to a meal. That means insulin is still there causing your tissues to react. Eating lower carb reduces but does not prevent the release of insulin.

What happens over time is that this background level becomes like a tar weight on a scale and your body stops responding to these low background levels of insulin.

Fasting gives your body time to clear the insulin and overtime helps you create a new normal that is less elevated by these background releases of insulin.

It is a way to hit the reset button, but it is not an instant thing and doesn't work well for everyone.

1568416ef28477d1fa29046218d83ddd

(6235)

on November 12, 2010
at 09:25 PM

I agree it is probably a lot more complex and once you hit part of the endocrine system you are probably hitting all of it, but I wanted to keep it simple and my understanding, having only taken basic physiology, is also pretty basic. This is basically the reasoning that led me to try it.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on November 12, 2010
at 07:09 PM

I think there are a number of hormonal changes that occur during a fast that are probably important as well. A number of studies suggest that caloric restriction increases longevity (quite significantly) - at least in animal models. The theory is that IF (intermittent fasting) would provide similar benefits to caloric restriction without the annoying "being hungry all the time" part. Also, many paleo-peeps have used it to shed some serious poundage.

2
02c3b38566b8b4aaf1dd64ae7d20fc03

on November 11, 2010
at 08:19 PM

Since wine is natural and made from fruit, I would say it is OK in moderation. Obviously we know the polyphenols in red wine has high antioxidant properties, anticancer, etc. so I say drink it IN MODERATION. Now a bottle per night, that is too much. There is a high probability that wine and other fermented products were used by our ancestors thousands of years ago. Off hand I cannot provide you with the research for it although I am sure it is a mouse click away.

Fasting, there is too much to explain about it as far as insulin sensitivity and how our ancestors fasted during long days and nights of hunting. Again, all this info is a mouse click away. Check out Robb Wolf. He is the go-to go on the paleo lifestyle along with Loren Cordain of course.

Vitamin D, the mother of all vitamins. In fact, latest research shows it is actually considered a hormone. Name a disease-it is linked to low levels of vitamin D. Cancer rates are associated with low D. Elite athletes that supplement with D, as compared to those who dont, have better balance, better coordination, more strength, more endurance, etc. Even the common cold anf the flu are linked to low D. This is one supplement that everyone needs to be on. You can get it from fatty fish ( salmon, tuna, mackerel, sardines), eggs and cod liver oil. It is also synthesized in the stratum basale and stratum spinosum layers of the skin. So all this jargon about avoiding the sun is a crock! Unless you are pale as can be, have freckles and are a red head.

The RDA of Vit D is 400IU. That is the bare minimum to prevent rickets. I recommend supplementing 1000-2000IU/day. Take the D with fat containg foods as it is fat soluble-nuts, avocados, olive oil, coconut oil, fish. Not all supplements are created equal. You want to purchase a company that is third party regulated. i.e. dont purchase from a GNC , walmart , target etc. Garden of life is a great whole food organic product regulated by a third party.

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on November 11, 2010
at 08:26 PM

Dr. B: Which levels are you aiming at with taking 1-2k UI ?

2
07ca188c8dac3a17f629dd87198d2098

(7970)

on November 11, 2010
at 08:04 PM

Wow, a bottle a night seems like a lot. I'd strongly recommend cutting that down. Other than that, red wine is fine.

1
0c0c5c65612425e497b7231c21516943

(1354)

on November 11, 2010
at 08:34 PM

I agree - too much wine! Whole Foods sells some nice organic (pesticide free) ones for a reasonable price. It should help reduce toxin load, but a glass or two max. IF - haven't done, due to some major blood sugar and IR issues. Vitamin D - send away for a test (grassroots vitamin D organization). It costs $65 and gives you a baseline. Most say at least 50 for optimum health. There are also formulas for how to raise, but I think that those are bogus, because everyone metabolizes different, so I think it is trial and test and trial again. I had a 38 recently, so I am trying 4000 a day. Wondering if I should bump it up?

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on November 11, 2010
at 08:59 PM

10 K. Test after a month.

1
8e24be38b5a77a7f85cd0d28d84c58f2

on November 11, 2010
at 08:19 PM

A bottle of wine every night is definitely a little over the top, so yes. You gotta get a handle on that. Also, drinking alcohol at night will affect 2 other key issues: 1. your sleep 2. your ability to BURN FAT. Just getting rid of the nightly wine binge will do wonders for your belly fat. But in moderation, red wine is acceptable. I strongly recommend Robb Wolf's new book, Paleo Solution. All the answers to your questions can be found there. It's a great resource... and no, I don't get royalties for sales, unfortunately... just a fan. :) Cheers!

1
84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on November 11, 2010
at 08:04 PM

Welcome James :)

  1. A bottle of red wine a night ? Hm, if looking from a weight loss stand of view, 1000 ml red wine comes out at 850 kCal. Might help with that weight loss ;) As for discussions on alcohol, type that in search window in the right corner. I presume it's not Paleo but again presume that most "Paleos" do drink it. Quality red wine is better than beer but with those amounts I don't think you can gain anything positive from any type.

  2. Right top corner "fasting" or wait for someone more willing.

  3. It's a popular opinion that vit D supplementation in necessarry with most, so starting with 10000 UI would be 0K but get yourself tested first, just to know your current level. Dose is usually about 5k-15k per day.

And remember "We will construct a series of breathing apparatus with kelp".

0
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on November 12, 2010
at 12:54 AM

Ikco, I cannot figure out how to directly answer your question so I will just post on here. I recommended 1-2k IU knowing that it is a low amount. I did so because I do not know the individual and their lifestlye, body composition, family history etc. Typically I recommend upwards of 10,000 I.U. I personally take 4K IU/day, but I eat wild salmon 2-3 times a week,wild cod 2 times a week and plenty of eggs. I live in Florida so I get plenty of sun.

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