19

votes

How do you feel about Peter(Hyperlipid)'s response to Stephan Guyanet?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created September 03, 2011 at 9:57 PM

It's definitely given me a lot more to think about concerning the insulin/leptin/lc/food reward debate that's been going on recently. Very glad that smart people are disagreeing and airing it out. It's good for everyone in the long run.

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2011/08/i-have-read-good-calories-bad-calories.html

Edit: Key take away

"There comes a point at which fat cells become sufficiently insulin resistant that they cannot hang on to the their fat content. You can still put fat in there with minimal insulin and minimal insulin sensitivity. Once adipocytes are sufficiently insulin resistant and they are leaking sufficient free fatty acids to match input, obviously weight gain stops. The inappropriate spilling of FFAs causes palmitate deriviatives to be produced which worsen insulin resistance, whole body, and obesity flips in to diabetes.

I am in complete agreement with Stephan here. What I object to is citing a situation where insulin is failing to progress obesity, when it is doing its best to, as evidence it did not cause it in the first place. Insulin is trying and FAILING to make the adipocytes fatter. The more impossible the task, the more insulin is produced"

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on September 06, 2011
at 04:10 PM

Shari, I think I can maintain weight loss as long as I'm able to end "splurges" after a few days. For 63 years, that was sadly a NO but, 5 months into Primal I've easily ended 3 splurges because I found myself craving water and primal foods. Mind-blowing! Perhaps if I had done this 40 years ago I could have quit junk food for life but I think it's more likely my holiday splurges will just get shorter and more moderate.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on September 06, 2011
at 05:33 AM

Good way to put it, Lynn ("all carbs may not have caused...," etc.) It's how I think about it, too.

4fca5e11d50731edbf4cf2ec38691aa3

(961)

on September 06, 2011
at 05:14 AM

I think my poison was sugar and grain(wheat and oats caused breathing problems since I was a small child) and now... Gary Taubes said..I a must treat myself as if I am allergic to carbs. All carbs may have not caused my problem, but all carbs are my problem now. Thank you all for helping me to clarify. Keep thinking and keep writing. Each one of you help me to understand .

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on September 05, 2011
at 02:02 PM

yes I agree... each thought sets up the reader for slam dunk

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on September 05, 2011
at 01:53 PM

Thanks the loon.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on September 05, 2011
at 07:44 AM

+1 bacon for the interesting singularization

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on September 05, 2011
at 07:42 AM

stream on consciousness? Oh I disagree. Every sentence seems carefully placed.

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on September 05, 2011
at 02:59 AM

I think it is definitely a Pandora’s box that everybody has to deal with, some more than others. A huge chunk of the weight loss industry is making “healthy” versions of foods people already like – low-fat, low-carb, low-calorie, low-gluten, low-whatever. I don’t know if that has really worked that well either. People do claim that with a plain but nutritious diet, most of the food cravings went away. I think if people want joy from their food, there is an accounting to made, more for some than for others (life is not fair). For me personally, exercise allows me to maintain my weight.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on September 05, 2011
at 12:14 AM

Perhaps a more modern attitude but pandora's box has been opened and there is no closing it for most of us. I failed at weight loss time and time again when I tried to squeeze food culture out of my life. I agree in theory you should be able to deny yourself the pleasure then reintroduce bette tasting food once weight loss is no longer the goal but it seem to me we've tried that over and over and over again and it doesn't seem to work very well. You white- knuckle it then go off the rails in the end. People can only deal with so much denial before their heads explode.

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on September 04, 2011
at 08:57 PM

Presumably a dog, or any well-functioning animal, only gets great joy from their food when they physically need food. Hence an animal should fall upon suitable food ravenously when hungry and then naturally not want to eat it any more when satiated. This is unless you think our bodies set us to overeat all the time- the thrify gene hypothesis- but looking at every other animal in the wild, and indeed, preindustrial humans, that seems to be dead wrong.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 04, 2011
at 07:58 PM

Quilt: I wrote that anesthesia was TRADITIONALLY the highest paid specialty, which for many years it was. Having been involved in healthcare for 30+ years, alot has changed. Lots of phsyicians have become procedurists, for one, and those procedures are what pay big bucks. So yes, there has been shifting. For many years anesthesiologists were up there with the top $$$ dogs.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on September 04, 2011
at 07:15 PM

Don't know that I agree about the "joy in life" critique. My dog -- granted, he's a domesticated animal, and may therefore be analogous to agricultural man -- seems to be very, very happy when he eats. I get the food-as-fuel argument, and when I went ZC I really did give up lots of pleasurable tastes, but then I discovered something amazing: a ribeye steak -- heck, even a boring slice of chuck roast -- *really tastes wonderful.* All by itself. N=1, yeah, but I've heard others say that too.

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on September 04, 2011
at 06:19 PM

Shari – I don’t think pre-industrial culture often saw food as a “joy in life” - this is a more modern attitude. I believe Dr. Harris has talked of becoming perfectly happy with plain food. Many people that lose a lot of weight speak of adopting the attitude that food is just fuel. I think recognizing this is an important tool for some people, especially those that are obese and looking to lose weight. I think once you are at your desired weight you have a lot more options, but it is still a tool to consider (i.e. eating plain during the week and splurging on the weekends.)

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on September 04, 2011
at 04:40 PM

But my question would be can you maintain the weight loss? Do you plan to eat like this forever? Is that a realistic expectation? This is the biggest issue I have with the food reward idea. At some point most people want to go on to have a relationship with food again that involved reward. Food is one of the great joys of life! I just don't see this as a viable long-term strategy (and I say this from my own personal experience.)

1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on September 04, 2011
at 04:16 PM

likely the word "be"

1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on September 04, 2011
at 04:14 PM

+1 Great Comment!

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on September 04, 2011
at 03:40 PM

Quilt, would you mind telling us the word or word that seems to have dropped out of the above comment? "Would have to huge amounts of glucose..." I'm very interested in understanding this idea of "glucose starvation."

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on September 04, 2011
at 02:41 PM

Yes...I agree Lucky Bastard...but in talking about causality...what came first? The cheetoe or the damage?

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on September 04, 2011
at 02:39 PM

Yes. Easy to confuse/combine reward and palatable--and has he spoken to if they are static or not? Would they shift among individuals and populations? (takes me forever to read and re-read and understand.)

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on September 04, 2011
at 02:22 PM

i think we need to start articulating whether we're talking about insulin response in metabolically healthy vs unhealthy individuals. the same scenario can be drastically different depending on with whom you're dealing.

4781cf8ae1bfcb558dfb056af17bea94

(4359)

on September 04, 2011
at 02:21 PM

QUILT, did I say it makes him correct? Why would you assume that I meant otherwise?

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on September 04, 2011
at 02:17 PM

@quilt so how did it work?

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on September 04, 2011
at 01:58 PM

I wasn't looking for leptin injections, Quilt. I am interested in fixing things myself. I just need to understand it all better. I know you have your leptin reset protocol, but there are too many parameters I would have a hard time with. I need it scaled for a 5'2", 140lb woman that is formerly eating disordered/formerly obese. I don't think it works for everyone the way it is written. I would read Mastering Leptin, but I don't really think I could wrap my brain around it well enough.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on September 04, 2011
at 12:54 PM

Another reason his theory is shaky

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on September 04, 2011
at 12:53 PM

Would have to huge amounts of glucose to get same effect...not likely

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on September 04, 2011
at 12:52 PM

Does not make him correct.......just makes you feel better believing that he is

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on September 04, 2011
at 12:51 PM

And the point of the adipocytes......if it truly worked simplistically like that amen would selling huge amounts of synthetic leptin after their trials. But guess what? That is not what the trials found and also why it's not being sold.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on September 04, 2011
at 12:49 PM

Anesthesia is not close to the top paid in medicine. Ask them. Most are hospital employees

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on September 04, 2011
at 08:28 AM

I agree that Stephan better articulates his views than Peter, though this is probably down to their choices of style rather than innate writing ability: you only need to look at Peter's blog and his (non-existent) filing system, that he's more interested in writing down his thoughts for his own amusement and in a highly amusing, but idiosyncratic fashion than with building an audience. I certainly don't think he's more emotional or less honest than Stephan.

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on September 04, 2011
at 08:26 AM

Well, if we take SG at his word when he says that reward is defined as that which "reinforces behavior", then by definition, your highly palatable meat wasn't rewarding. Unfortunately Stephan, as well as his readers, often conflate the two. It seems to me that carbs, for most people and including myself, are highly rewarding even if unpalatable.

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on September 04, 2011
at 07:07 AM

Yes...did not know where the baby thing was going. Very funny capturing the start of it that way.

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on September 04, 2011
at 05:03 AM

What in this whole world is NOT about ego?

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 04, 2011
at 04:56 AM

Peter is really a delightful writer. Someone above was complaining about his sort of stream-of consciousness writing style. Not me. I really enjoy it. And I say that when someone like Peter spends his valuable time sharing the incredible info that he does, he gets to write any darn way he likes! YEah, it's a great read. His dry, wild humor is wonderful!

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on September 04, 2011
at 04:13 AM

The antidote isn't the same as the poison.

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on September 04, 2011
at 04:12 AM

The theory is not that low carb can't help repair an obesity problem. It is that carbs are not the causative factor.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on September 04, 2011
at 04:06 AM

Now, after reading it fully, I find myself wanting to go back to each sentence, not because it is unclear, but because it is so funny and appropriate. There is really lots of fun stuff here.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on September 04, 2011
at 03:11 AM

I am DYING to know if ItstheWoo has seen this. Oh this is getting really, really good, lol!

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 04, 2011
at 03:05 AM

You and me both!

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 04, 2011
at 02:27 AM

(con't) much to offer. For me, with phsyiological processes explanations....Peter is THE MAN, hands down, and no because he supports insulin theory re: fat dispostion.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 04, 2011
at 02:24 AM

(con't) the table...and sometimes doing it for 3-6-10 hours at a time. Fast, precise decision makers for whom a wrong move can mean utter catastrophe. Additionally, humans and for instance dogs, are far more ALIKE physiologically than they are different.If all the MDs suddenly disappeared tomorrow, we could be treated quite nicely by Vets! I maintain, as I have said before, that Taubes, Guyenet and Lustig are all quite "right" just re: different aspects of obesity. no, I do not agree with Stephan re: insulin. But that is only one small aspect of his theory/work. Hyperpalatability theory has

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 04, 2011
at 02:13 AM

@Melissa, Rose, and LB: I'm delighted with the discussion. And frankly, you can't do any "better" than Hyperlipid Peter. Many may not know that it is harder to get into Veterinarian School than it is to get into medical school. Peter also has an advanced degree in physiology as well as being an anesthesiologist. There's a reason that anesthesiologists, among MDs have traditionally been the highest paid specialty. They are taking you a hair's breath from death, keeping you there, without causing brain hypoxia or organ shutdown, all the while keeping you down far enough so you don't jump off

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 04, 2011
at 02:08 AM

@Lynn: You go girl! And don't let anyone convince you out of what is giving you ecellent results and bringing health into your life.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on September 04, 2011
at 02:08 AM

Anyone who does not think leptin is critical is in the dark......

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 04, 2011
at 02:07 AM

@Ambi: I think the discussion is actually about BOTH, with a primary emphasis on what causes obesity, but also what most effectively treats it in mnay cases and WHY. Both theories apply to both ends of the equation.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on September 04, 2011
at 01:49 AM

lb, I'd just like to take this moment to say you're another sane voice I really value on PH (there are a lot of sane voices, but as I'm socially inept, there are few whose names and personas I know on sight). I don't always agree with you, but I always learn from you.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on September 04, 2011
at 01:46 AM

Oh, and plus one to lynn for explicitly looking at (one aspect of) the hypothesis from the predictive angle. And of course congrats on your achievement.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on September 04, 2011
at 01:44 AM

Ambimorph, that's true, but I also think there's a subtext, at least on PH and a few other sites, that questions whether LC is the right intervention for weight loss, and then a third subtext (cryptotext?) about "healing" from obesity and reintroducing carbs. The pushback against Taubes seems to have stirred some people to encourage others to eat more carbs; I myself have received advice to get up to 100g a day to put the final nail in inflammation's coffin. I'd lol at that, but really, I thought that was totally batshit crazy "advice," and I'm glad I'm a defensive ZCer. And I'll "lol" that.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on September 04, 2011
at 01:29 AM

i thought the same thing, rose.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on September 04, 2011
at 01:24 AM

I agree, Melissa. I'm very excited that this debate is even happening, egos and all. And I admit that the passage you quoted got me laughing when I first read it over there, only because it pretty much sums up what Itsthewooo, everyone's favorite logorrheic blog commenter, has been saying (and saying and saying and saying, lol).

03fa485bfd54734522755f47a5e6597e

(3944)

on September 04, 2011
at 01:19 AM

Favorite line: "But elevating insulin to lethal levels using glucose-free casein, beef, whey, eggs etc all produce acute, severe, unremitting, paradoxical normoglycaemia."

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on September 04, 2011
at 01:15 AM

This is great! Congratulations! What they're arguing about is what causes obesity in the first place, not what cures it, though.

396679d1e1357eb7e9397ca34c8773ea

(454)

on September 04, 2011
at 01:14 AM

A) Be careful what you call yourself here, guinea pig is a delicassy among some of the more eccentric paleo. B) That's fantastic I had a similar response with GCBC and am glad to see I'm not the only one, congrats.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on September 04, 2011
at 12:47 AM

This is my first hyperlipid blog read, and I feel like it was kind of stream of consciousness word spewing, some great ideas, but could use a hefty edit. When every comment afterwards is "I'll have to read this a second time to figure out what you are saying", I think the author might owe it to the integrity of their argument to do some polishing.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on September 04, 2011
at 12:35 AM

#dietsoapopera..............

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on September 04, 2011
at 12:35 AM

@Shari - Julia Ross says that cigarettes are about 95% sugar. Maybe some nicorette? Otherwise, NICE!

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on September 04, 2011
at 12:34 AM

hey no kidding...

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on September 03, 2011
at 11:51 PM

I will have to read it again when I’m sober, but I got the impression that he was saying that modern industrial cultures get screwed over by sugar first, then have problems with carbs. I am not really sure that is the same thing as Taubes’ Carbohydrate Hypothesis – the one Stephan was critiquing anyway. Hopefully we will get some real debate now, and hopefully more of the bloggers like Harris, Jaminet, Masterjohn, etc… will get involved. Taubes just doesn’t really have much incentive to really debate bloggers.

D30ff86ad2c1f3b43b99aed213bcf461

on September 03, 2011
at 11:14 PM

Insulin-shooting Granny who served sugared tea with jam on toast was a memorable bit for me!

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on September 03, 2011
at 10:44 PM

I've read it through three times. I really need a cigarette right now.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on September 03, 2011
at 10:27 PM

i am polyamorous when it comes to bromances. ask kamal and aravind...

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on September 03, 2011
at 10:21 PM

Uh oh! Does this mean you are breaking up with Stephan and starting a bromance with Peter? Or are you just "curious?" I understand these kinds of relationship though. I love Ray Peat AND Ron Rosedale (don't tell them though, it's a secret).

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on September 03, 2011
at 10:15 PM

check out the edit. i can't wait for the rebuttal.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on September 03, 2011
at 10:14 PM

"The diversity of our opinions does not proceed from some men being more rational than others but solely from the fact that our thoughts pass through diverse channels and the same objects are not considered by all." ~Descartes, *Discourse on Method*

8e3782b68e033763485472f414f507a5

(2433)

on September 03, 2011
at 10:10 PM

Indeed. The new dogma amongst many Paleo bloggers that insulin has nothing whatsoever to do with obesity is on shaky ground. Just as the old "Insulin has everything to do with obesity" dogma is/was.

8e3782b68e033763485472f414f507a5

(2433)

on September 03, 2011
at 10:08 PM

Indeed. The new Paleo dogma that insulin has nothing whatsoever to do with obesity is on shaky ground. Just as the old "Insulin has everything to do with obesity" dogma was.

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10 Answers

22
4fca5e11d50731edbf4cf2ec38691aa3

on September 04, 2011
at 12:56 AM

I am my own guinea pig.

I am insulin resistant with increasing blood sugar (120) I have fat around my stomach and back. I gain weight in my upper body.I had High blood pressure, I was on medicine. Many allergies...On four meds for that too. I am age 56,female... very active. I am a weight lifter.(500 pound leg presses) I do high intensity interval training every other day. But I am 50 pounds over weight that will not come off in fact I was still gaining a pound a month... I work out 6 days a week and was on a low fat diet. I ate 6 small portioned meals a day per Body for Life diet. Very frustrated.

I read Gary's Good Calories, Bad Calories...If Gary Taubes is right, then I should be decreasing my carbs to almost nothing in order to save my own life by eating nothing that causes a high insulin response.

SO far; Since Memorial Day:I stopped working out because I hurt everywhere for the first three weeks.. I ate what Gary advised. Mostly grass fed meat/eggs/chicken, Organic greens and organic low glycemic vegetables. My blood pressure plummeted to 116/68 with no meds. I dropped 25 pounds. My blood sugar reads 90. I stopped being drivin by constant hunger. I am off of all allergy meds. I can breathe through my nose. What a relief to find an answer. I don't know what you all are arguing about... works for me...

I began working out again last week. I am an avid reader of what all of you put up here.Maybe this would not work for someone who is not insulin resistant.

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on September 04, 2011
at 04:12 AM

The theory is not that low carb can't help repair an obesity problem. It is that carbs are not the causative factor.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on September 04, 2011
at 01:15 AM

This is great! Congratulations! What they're arguing about is what causes obesity in the first place, not what cures it, though.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on September 04, 2011
at 01:44 AM

Ambimorph, that's true, but I also think there's a subtext, at least on PH and a few other sites, that questions whether LC is the right intervention for weight loss, and then a third subtext (cryptotext?) about "healing" from obesity and reintroducing carbs. The pushback against Taubes seems to have stirred some people to encourage others to eat more carbs; I myself have received advice to get up to 100g a day to put the final nail in inflammation's coffin. I'd lol at that, but really, I thought that was totally batshit crazy "advice," and I'm glad I'm a defensive ZCer. And I'll "lol" that.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on September 04, 2011
at 01:46 AM

Oh, and plus one to lynn for explicitly looking at (one aspect of) the hypothesis from the predictive angle. And of course congrats on your achievement.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 04, 2011
at 02:07 AM

@Ambi: I think the discussion is actually about BOTH, with a primary emphasis on what causes obesity, but also what most effectively treats it in mnay cases and WHY. Both theories apply to both ends of the equation.

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on September 04, 2011
at 04:13 AM

The antidote isn't the same as the poison.

396679d1e1357eb7e9397ca34c8773ea

(454)

on September 04, 2011
at 01:14 AM

A) Be careful what you call yourself here, guinea pig is a delicassy among some of the more eccentric paleo. B) That's fantastic I had a similar response with GCBC and am glad to see I'm not the only one, congrats.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 04, 2011
at 02:08 AM

@Lynn: You go girl! And don't let anyone convince you out of what is giving you ecellent results and bringing health into your life.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on September 06, 2011
at 05:33 AM

Good way to put it, Lynn ("all carbs may not have caused...," etc.) It's how I think about it, too.

4fca5e11d50731edbf4cf2ec38691aa3

(961)

on September 06, 2011
at 05:14 AM

I think my poison was sugar and grain(wheat and oats caused breathing problems since I was a small child) and now... Gary Taubes said..I a must treat myself as if I am allergic to carbs. All carbs may have not caused my problem, but all carbs are my problem now. Thank you all for helping me to clarify. Keep thinking and keep writing. Each one of you help me to understand .

12
Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on September 04, 2011
at 12:02 AM

I think the GT and SG affair has become more about ego than science at this point.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on September 04, 2011
at 12:34 AM

hey no kidding...

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on September 04, 2011
at 12:35 AM

#dietsoapopera..............

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on September 04, 2011
at 05:03 AM

What in this whole world is NOT about ego?

1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on September 04, 2011
at 04:14 PM

+1 Great Comment!

11
7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on September 04, 2011
at 06:04 AM

From SG "The fact is, insulin spikes after meals temporarily decrease fat release from fat cells, but if you look at total 24 hour energy balance, insulin spikes do not cause fat accumulation. " I think SG assumes the meal was satiating. For me an insulin spike goes something like this below...

I ate the ham sandwich...which led to...a craving for...cheetoes...which then led to a craving for candy...which then led to a craving for ice cream and before I knew it I had eaten a lot in 24 hours and I am still hungry.

My own experience confirms SG's next quote...

"Weight stable obese people have a higher energy flux out of fat cells, and a higher metabolic rate, but it is not enough to overcome the higher calorie intake that is also observed (26, 27). That has been repeatedly confirmed and it is simply a fact at this point." Yep...darn that ham sandwich insulin spike!

There are times that I eat some grass fed meat with roasted asparagus and butter and the taste is heavenly and REWARDING. After I eat it I am full--maybe even for 24 hours.

Peter says...". I'm still trying to get my head around that one, while eating low carb and trying to remember what it felt like to be hungry."

Yep...me too Peter. Me too.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on September 04, 2011
at 02:22 PM

i think we need to start articulating whether we're talking about insulin response in metabolically healthy vs unhealthy individuals. the same scenario can be drastically different depending on with whom you're dealing.

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on September 04, 2011
at 02:41 PM

Yes...I agree Lucky Bastard...but in talking about causality...what came first? The cheetoe or the damage?

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on September 04, 2011
at 12:54 PM

Another reason his theory is shaky

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on September 04, 2011
at 02:39 PM

Yes. Easy to confuse/combine reward and palatable--and has he spoken to if they are static or not? Would they shift among individuals and populations? (takes me forever to read and re-read and understand.)

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on September 05, 2011
at 07:44 AM

+1 bacon for the interesting singularization

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on September 04, 2011
at 08:26 AM

Well, if we take SG at his word when he says that reward is defined as that which "reinforces behavior", then by definition, your highly palatable meat wasn't rewarding. Unfortunately Stephan, as well as his readers, often conflate the two. It seems to me that carbs, for most people and including myself, are highly rewarding even if unpalatable.

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on September 05, 2011
at 01:53 PM

Thanks the loon.

10
7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

on September 04, 2011
at 01:19 AM

I am super excited by this portion:

If you are ex-morbidly obese and have managed to lose a few hundred pounds of fat you will still own a set of injured adipocytes. These injured adipocytes refuse to produce physiologically appropriate levels of leptin for their fat stores. Now THERE is a role for leptin. It might even reverse the persistent hyperinsulinaemia present even during starvation in the morbidly obese...

That leptin is most important for the formerly obese and not so much for fit/normal weight people and currently obese is key to me. I would like to be "fixed" some day. I would like to think that I will not have to eat 1200/1400 calories for the rest of my life to maintain my 100+lb weight loss. The more they figure out about this stuff, the better chance I have.

I realize that's not the main point he was trying to make, but it was the part that applied to my life.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on September 04, 2011
at 02:08 AM

Anyone who does not think leptin is critical is in the dark......

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on September 04, 2011
at 01:58 PM

I wasn't looking for leptin injections, Quilt. I am interested in fixing things myself. I just need to understand it all better. I know you have your leptin reset protocol, but there are too many parameters I would have a hard time with. I need it scaled for a 5'2", 140lb woman that is formerly eating disordered/formerly obese. I don't think it works for everyone the way it is written. I would read Mastering Leptin, but I don't really think I could wrap my brain around it well enough.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on September 04, 2011
at 01:24 AM

I agree, Melissa. I'm very excited that this debate is even happening, egos and all. And I admit that the passage you quoted got me laughing when I first read it over there, only because it pretty much sums up what Itsthewooo, everyone's favorite logorrheic blog commenter, has been saying (and saying and saying and saying, lol).

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on September 04, 2011
at 01:29 AM

i thought the same thing, rose.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 04, 2011
at 02:24 AM

(con't) the table...and sometimes doing it for 3-6-10 hours at a time. Fast, precise decision makers for whom a wrong move can mean utter catastrophe. Additionally, humans and for instance dogs, are far more ALIKE physiologically than they are different.If all the MDs suddenly disappeared tomorrow, we could be treated quite nicely by Vets! I maintain, as I have said before, that Taubes, Guyenet and Lustig are all quite "right" just re: different aspects of obesity. no, I do not agree with Stephan re: insulin. But that is only one small aspect of his theory/work. Hyperpalatability theory has

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on September 04, 2011
at 12:51 PM

And the point of the adipocytes......if it truly worked simplistically like that amen would selling huge amounts of synthetic leptin after their trials. But guess what? That is not what the trials found and also why it's not being sold.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 04, 2011
at 02:27 AM

(con't) much to offer. For me, with phsyiological processes explanations....Peter is THE MAN, hands down, and no because he supports insulin theory re: fat dispostion.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on September 04, 2011
at 01:49 AM

lb, I'd just like to take this moment to say you're another sane voice I really value on PH (there are a lot of sane voices, but as I'm socially inept, there are few whose names and personas I know on sight). I don't always agree with you, but I always learn from you.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on September 04, 2011
at 12:49 PM

Anesthesia is not close to the top paid in medicine. Ask them. Most are hospital employees

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 04, 2011
at 02:13 AM

@Melissa, Rose, and LB: I'm delighted with the discussion. And frankly, you can't do any "better" than Hyperlipid Peter. Many may not know that it is harder to get into Veterinarian School than it is to get into medical school. Peter also has an advanced degree in physiology as well as being an anesthesiologist. There's a reason that anesthesiologists, among MDs have traditionally been the highest paid specialty. They are taking you a hair's breath from death, keeping you there, without causing brain hypoxia or organ shutdown, all the while keeping you down far enough so you don't jump off

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on September 04, 2011
at 03:11 AM

I am DYING to know if ItstheWoo has seen this. Oh this is getting really, really good, lol!

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on September 04, 2011
at 02:17 PM

@quilt so how did it work?

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 04, 2011
at 07:58 PM

Quilt: I wrote that anesthesia was TRADITIONALLY the highest paid specialty, which for many years it was. Having been involved in healthcare for 30+ years, alot has changed. Lots of phsyicians have become procedurists, for one, and those procedures are what pay big bucks. So yes, there has been shifting. For many years anesthesiologists were up there with the top $$$ dogs.

10
396679d1e1357eb7e9397ca34c8773ea

on September 04, 2011
at 12:21 AM

I love these articles. It's like sitting down for a college final to a class you never even knew you were enrolled in, just wanna punch yourself in the face.

On a side note I find the theory extremely thought provoking (what I can understand that is). The idea that insulin plays a role up to the point that the adipocytes start leaking fat is a pretty awesome visual representation.

And the Baby.

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on September 04, 2011
at 07:07 AM

Yes...did not know where the baby thing was going. Very funny capturing the start of it that way.

8
8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on September 04, 2011
at 12:33 AM

OK, I'll answer the question without even reading all of it, because I thought the post was just so darn meaty that it would take awhile to chew and digest. I rely on Hyperlipid to offer thoughtful posts on some of the best topics.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 04, 2011
at 04:56 AM

Peter is really a delightful writer. Someone above was complaining about his sort of stream-of consciousness writing style. Not me. I really enjoy it. And I say that when someone like Peter spends his valuable time sharing the incredible info that he does, he gets to write any darn way he likes! YEah, it's a great read. His dry, wild humor is wonderful!

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on September 04, 2011
at 03:05 AM

You and me both!

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on September 05, 2011
at 07:42 AM

stream on consciousness? Oh I disagree. Every sentence seems carefully placed.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on September 04, 2011
at 04:06 AM

Now, after reading it fully, I find myself wanting to go back to each sentence, not because it is unclear, but because it is so funny and appropriate. There is really lots of fun stuff here.

7c9f81d68c78de1a31eab9c91c17b4b8

on September 05, 2011
at 02:02 PM

yes I agree... each thought sets up the reader for slam dunk

3
96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on September 04, 2011
at 03:16 PM

I say this from personal experience rather than scientific training, but having tried just about all known strategies in my struggle with lifelong food addiction only 2 strategies have allowed me to ease my cravings and lose significant fat:

  • eating only one meal per day (over time, the size of the meal naturally diminishes without me having to exercise willpower in what or how much I eat)
  • eating a very short list of foods over and over again (seems compatible with Stephan's comments about food reward--if I eat "exciting" foods my cravings explode) such as beef with low-starch veggies every day

Trying to eat 1200 calories per day of a varied menu takes about 3 days to trigger extreme anxiety and obsession with the next bite of food.

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on September 04, 2011
at 06:19 PM

Shari – I don’t think pre-industrial culture often saw food as a “joy in life” - this is a more modern attitude. I believe Dr. Harris has talked of becoming perfectly happy with plain food. Many people that lose a lot of weight speak of adopting the attitude that food is just fuel. I think recognizing this is an important tool for some people, especially those that are obese and looking to lose weight. I think once you are at your desired weight you have a lot more options, but it is still a tool to consider (i.e. eating plain during the week and splurging on the weekends.)

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on September 04, 2011
at 04:40 PM

But my question would be can you maintain the weight loss? Do you plan to eat like this forever? Is that a realistic expectation? This is the biggest issue I have with the food reward idea. At some point most people want to go on to have a relationship with food again that involved reward. Food is one of the great joys of life! I just don't see this as a viable long-term strategy (and I say this from my own personal experience.)

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on September 05, 2011
at 12:14 AM

Perhaps a more modern attitude but pandora's box has been opened and there is no closing it for most of us. I failed at weight loss time and time again when I tried to squeeze food culture out of my life. I agree in theory you should be able to deny yourself the pleasure then reintroduce bette tasting food once weight loss is no longer the goal but it seem to me we've tried that over and over and over again and it doesn't seem to work very well. You white- knuckle it then go off the rails in the end. People can only deal with so much denial before their heads explode.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on September 04, 2011
at 07:15 PM

Don't know that I agree about the "joy in life" critique. My dog -- granted, he's a domesticated animal, and may therefore be analogous to agricultural man -- seems to be very, very happy when he eats. I get the food-as-fuel argument, and when I went ZC I really did give up lots of pleasurable tastes, but then I discovered something amazing: a ribeye steak -- heck, even a boring slice of chuck roast -- *really tastes wonderful.* All by itself. N=1, yeah, but I've heard others say that too.

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on September 04, 2011
at 08:57 PM

Presumably a dog, or any well-functioning animal, only gets great joy from their food when they physically need food. Hence an animal should fall upon suitable food ravenously when hungry and then naturally not want to eat it any more when satiated. This is unless you think our bodies set us to overeat all the time- the thrify gene hypothesis- but looking at every other animal in the wild, and indeed, preindustrial humans, that seems to be dead wrong.

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on September 05, 2011
at 02:59 AM

I think it is definitely a Pandora’s box that everybody has to deal with, some more than others. A huge chunk of the weight loss industry is making “healthy” versions of foods people already like – low-fat, low-carb, low-calorie, low-gluten, low-whatever. I don’t know if that has really worked that well either. People do claim that with a plain but nutritious diet, most of the food cravings went away. I think if people want joy from their food, there is an accounting to made, more for some than for others (life is not fair). For me personally, exercise allows me to maintain my weight.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on September 06, 2011
at 04:10 PM

Shari, I think I can maintain weight loss as long as I'm able to end "splurges" after a few days. For 63 years, that was sadly a NO but, 5 months into Primal I've easily ended 3 splurges because I found myself craving water and primal foods. Mind-blowing! Perhaps if I had done this 40 years ago I could have quit junk food for life but I think it's more likely my holiday splurges will just get shorter and more moderate.

2
4781cf8ae1bfcb558dfb056af17bea94

(4359)

on September 04, 2011
at 02:57 AM

I think Stephan's arguments are generally more honest, less emotional, and better articulated than those of GT or, sorry to say it, Peter (who I like quite a bit).

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on September 04, 2011
at 08:28 AM

I agree that Stephan better articulates his views than Peter, though this is probably down to their choices of style rather than innate writing ability: you only need to look at Peter's blog and his (non-existent) filing system, that he's more interested in writing down his thoughts for his own amusement and in a highly amusing, but idiosyncratic fashion than with building an audience. I certainly don't think he's more emotional or less honest than Stephan.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on September 04, 2011
at 12:52 PM

Does not make him correct.......just makes you feel better believing that he is

4781cf8ae1bfcb558dfb056af17bea94

(4359)

on September 04, 2011
at 02:21 PM

QUILT, did I say it makes him correct? Why would you assume that I meant otherwise?

1
Medium avatar

on September 04, 2011
at 07:25 AM

That insulin acts upon HSL to inhibit lipolysis is a better argument for strategic insulin management than for the complete avoidance of carbohydrates. I think we still have an entire macronutrient class getting thrown out with the bathwater.

Though fructose intake is the most efficient way to raise triglycerides/VLDL and thus reduce the passage of leptin across the blood-brain barrier, I'm sure you could also achieve this to some extent via a generally high starch intake coupled with inactivity. Being sedentary is no more biologically appropriate than drinking a cola or eating margarine.

Any attempt to combat the obesity epidemic should focus on reducing fasting plasma triglycerides, and thus increasing leptin sensitivity. Luckily, the same strategies that accomplish this also increase insulin sensitivity (removing fructose completely for a few weeks, increasing activity - especially before meals - and not eating carbohydrates during one's most active hours). Satiety increases and lipolysis is maximized without the stress of total glucose starvation.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on September 04, 2011
at 03:40 PM

Quilt, would you mind telling us the word or word that seems to have dropped out of the above comment? "Would have to huge amounts of glucose..." I'm very interested in understanding this idea of "glucose starvation."

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on September 04, 2011
at 12:53 PM

Would have to huge amounts of glucose to get same effect...not likely

1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on September 04, 2011
at 04:16 PM

likely the word "be"

0
396679d1e1357eb7e9397ca34c8773ea

on September 04, 2011
at 12:21 AM

I love these articles. It's like sitting down for a college final to a class you never even knew you were enrolled in, just wanna punch yourself in the face.

On a side note I find the theory extremely thought provoking (what I can understand that is). The idea that insulin plays a role up to the point that the adipocytes start leaking fat is a pretty awesome visual representation.

And the Baby.

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