7

votes

What's with this strong obsession with eating fat

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created May 17, 2012 at 5:26 PM

Possible Duplicate:
Could we modern paleos be eating too much saturated fat?

**it seems as if there are a group of people who sought out paleo dieting as an excuse to bathe in lard. Palmitic acid is proven to damage blood vessels over and over in studies, now that is not to say it damages the heart, just vessels.. Cordain has pointed this out time and time again yet people still seem to be taking advice from tuabes and sisson. Read up about the Inuit mummy that was dug up totally preserved, it didn't have cardiovascular disease but it had extensive endothelial damage.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1507)

on May 23, 2012
at 03:19 PM

@Matthew, ah, i see--ok. Thank you for taking the time to explain. Though I think both explanations (yours and the study's) are equally hypothetical at this point. but fwiw, I'm inclined to support the hypo you endorse, given the other evidence about sat fat (and because I want to keep eating it.) :)

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on May 21, 2012
at 09:37 AM

Stephan on WHS has posted about this (http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/diet-heart-controlled-trials-new.html) and more in the same series. A couple of things to bear in mind are that these trials often replace trans fat, as well as SFA and increase o3 and o3:o6 ratio.

6b8d12fc3e43179f9ae1765a4d1a9dc2

(5914)

on May 19, 2012
at 09:42 PM

What do you make of the comment - "Clinical trials that replaced saturated fat with polyunsaturated fat have generally shown a reduction in CVD events"

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on May 19, 2012
at 10:46 AM

D.K., are you taking thyroid meds? I'd freaking die on your diet.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on May 19, 2012
at 10:37 AM

If people in the US would see food as fuel they would just go to McDonalds every day. After all, we want the cheapest and easiest to get fuel, right? Seriously, there's nothing wrong with obsession if it works. I see quite some people obsess about particular food, Kasra. You seem to be under the impression that only people on here try to get healthy. The amount of people around me that still avoid fat like the plague because it would make them fat... When I was a kid I was obsessed with chocolate and candy. And what kid isn't, really?

1dd1d4bde5b46b4c90efeadea3a96a75

(180)

on May 19, 2012
at 07:55 AM

Why would beef be more dangerous to us than fish? So you believe our ancestors learned to create hooks with lines, boats, and nets before they could hunt or scavenge any land animals? Do you think we were extracting oil from olives for hundreds of thousands of years? Gathering high quantities of nuts (from trees that weren't even in the same areas as humans until the last 10,000 or so years)? And taking magic supplements? You're still stuck in the mindset of conventional wisdom.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 19, 2012
at 05:46 AM

Even the equator does not look like a Del Monte commercial.

C4f1a0c70c4e0dea507c2e346c036bbd

on May 19, 2012
at 04:06 AM

http://paleohacks.com/questions/12638/could-we-modern-paleos-be-eating-too-much-saturated-fat#axzz1vHjewnYS That looks pretty similar.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 19, 2012
at 02:35 AM

Yes, I'm looking for the dupe and can't find it though. Can anyone point the way?

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 19, 2012
at 02:24 AM

If carbs drive insulin which drives fat, why is does Gary Taubes have a keg?

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 19, 2012
at 12:03 AM

Yep been there done that. I have to agree with Marcy that the tone of the questions is very off-putting. Argumentative to say the least. I have voted to close. We have discussed this 100 times already. Please learn to search this site for the information you desire unless you are just really trolling for a fight.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 18, 2012
at 11:55 PM

...Here's the site I got that info from http://www.hacres.com/hallelujah-diet/explanation

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 18, 2012
at 11:50 PM

@Matthew- The Hallejuia diet is not a low fat diet- it includes olive oil, nut butters, nuts, gluten grains, "vegan mayonnaise", beans and legumes. THis is not a healthy diet, and neither is it a low fat one, necessarily.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 18, 2012
at 09:19 PM

Our ancestors were equatorial and would have had more fruits available than a few berries. Regarding the meat, big game is a race with the maggots and choicer fatty bits are eaten first. Small game, mollusks and birds would have been eaten completely.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 18, 2012
at 05:30 PM

Even out of season, animals carry a fair amount of fat. Btw, Have you seen just how little fruit there is in the wild? Good luck to anyone trying to gorge on wild fruit for a season.

5447e1f37d3ffa1525dac55be36ee454

(1019)

on May 18, 2012
at 04:21 PM

Just because the body down-regulates antioxidant production should we assume that consuming anti-oxidants is detrimental to health?

5447e1f37d3ffa1525dac55be36ee454

(1019)

on May 18, 2012
at 04:20 PM

PaleoVenus, You are right on that, I summarized incorrectly, but this would make my point stronger that there is a possibility that anti-inflammatory HDL activity is down-regualted because saturated fat is so stabe, and unlikely to oxidize, it may provide a protective/anti-inflammatory benefit itself. This is very similar to how the body down-regualtes it's own production of antioxidants when supplementing with dietary antioxidants. FMD only decresead 2% with sat fat, and 1% with PUFA's. That's kind of nothing, wouldn't you agreee?

5447e1f37d3ffa1525dac55be36ee454

(1019)

on May 18, 2012
at 04:11 PM

ForeverYoung, He was on the hallelujah diet. Doesn't get much "healthier" than that.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 18, 2012
at 02:18 PM

Matthew: What evidence is there for fats causing less oxidative stress than carbs? Also, palmitic acid in the free fatty acid form is where the concern is. Excessive levels are implicated in insulin resistance and other 'lipotoxic' effects.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 18, 2012
at 12:32 PM

I realize that too Warren, but I think it's a stretch yo think it was like the high fat LC paleo diet. Game animals are kind of like fruit. They're fat in season. When fat was available paleos gorged on it in the same way they gorged on fruit in season. For long periods they had to get by on next to nothing.

C3bc92e6b5eba45dc55f43ac3c70cc25

on May 18, 2012
at 11:27 AM

Lol yea reminds me of that crazy raw food family from Wife Swap.

Fb67dc30cead043d1d13ea503a3044dc

(3280)

on May 18, 2012
at 08:01 AM

Fat IS the food of the gods; Greek myth has the fat as being the bits of animal sacrifice most pleasing to the gods. Old Testament too. People back then knew what was valuable in a slaughtered critter. :)

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 18, 2012
at 05:30 AM

thhq There are plenty of very fatty parts on a lot of mammals. There is no law in the wild that even the leanest parts of an animal must be eaten. I've read historical accounts of lots of wastage at kill sites. Fatty parts and organs being taken and much of the rest being left behind.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 18, 2012
at 05:24 AM

Fat doesn't give me diarrhea.

D8c04730b5d016a839b3c5b932bf59dd

(823)

on May 18, 2012
at 03:47 AM

oh, and also, great-grandma made pie-crusts with lard. :9

D8c04730b5d016a839b3c5b932bf59dd

(823)

on May 18, 2012
at 03:47 AM

My great-grandpa made his own sauerkraut in the basement all his life. He liked to say, 'you gotta have gravy, so the kraut slides down.' and he was eating it with a nice pork butt roast from pigs he raised, too.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1507)

on May 18, 2012
at 03:33 AM

(for the record, the about.com article just summarized the Nicholls study--helpful if you can use a breakdown, but agreed, not a primary source).

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1507)

on May 18, 2012
at 03:33 AM

@Matthew, thanks for addressing the study--but I think your interpretation of the study is off. It looks to me that the study is saying NOT that sat fat had NO effect on HDL, but as compared to a fasting state, consuming sat fat makes HDL LESS effective at anti-inflammatory functions. In addition, it inhibited vaso-dilation (a point you didn't address yet). I'm not trying to be snarky, genuinely hoping someone can explain this away, as I want to enjoy my sat fat but lack the expertise to debunk this.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 18, 2012
at 02:41 AM

I like stories like this. Xtreme paleo or jackass paleo. Tough call.

0d0842381492a41b2173a04014aae810

(4875)

on May 18, 2012
at 02:27 AM

I'm absolutely disappointed that this poorly articulated, derisive, "question" received this much attention, while well cited biochem questions go largely ignored. I'm starting to feel like this place is nothing but buzz-words and anecdotes.

3b0b95dfc6dc5c18e535945f4aab0866

(2392)

on May 18, 2012
at 01:38 AM

@foreveryoung, to be honest, I added that tag, as the tone of the message was strongly trolling. However I feel ambivalent as to whether it still was inappropriate...oh well.

276a5e631b62f8e0793987c0496364bb

(1644)

on May 18, 2012
at 01:28 AM

Wouldn't that indicate fat malabsorption?

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 18, 2012
at 12:43 AM

@ matthew- maybe it was because he was eating an unhealthy, inflammatory diet otherwise. Perhaps he was eating nonfat dairy, wheat/gluten, refined sugar, refined grains, etc. A low fat diet (sub 10% of calories) in the presence of abundant fruits, tubers, vegetables, and some flesh for protein and a little fat for taste is extremely healthy. Look at the Kitavans!

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on May 18, 2012
at 12:42 AM

I agree with David. While I like talking about nutrition and discussing food on these boards, I think more people in the US would be better off viewing food more as fuel. It is straight up no good to view food, any food, as a reward. This, unfortunately, is now common and even professed as fine for raising children, etc. Eat to fuel the rest of your life of moving, loving, working, playing, etc.

80890193d74240cab6dda920665bfb6c

(1528)

on May 18, 2012
at 12:40 AM

Don't forget the Samoans, when they still ate a traditional diet. Which they haven't sadly since the end of WWII.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on May 18, 2012
at 12:38 AM

I agree that people flock to fat for no solid reason. It's tasty I suppose. Personally I get no satisfaction from eating what is usually liquid. I like chewing my food like meat, veg, and starch. I'd say a lot of the fat-love here is more just a reaction to the SAD and CW that fears fat (used to anyway...more and more even pretty mainstream outlets are not anti-fat). I think it's a lot of people who have found this other way of eating, and just look back and SAD with no love lost and so cheer on whatever is anti-SAD.

0d0842381492a41b2173a04014aae810

(4875)

on May 18, 2012
at 12:20 AM

It sure is hard to bite one's tongue when the coworker in question says "OMG broccoli and meat for breakfast, gross! you eat the WEIRDEST THINGS!." I snapped on some poor fat-free yogurt eater in my office the other morning. She'll never look at me in the eyes again.

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on May 18, 2012
at 12:16 AM

...it is until you have diarrhea squirting out of your ass.

7cf9f5b08a41ecf2a2d2bc0b31ea6fa0

(4176)

on May 18, 2012
at 12:14 AM

Kasra, good question!

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on May 18, 2012
at 12:14 AM

I like this discussion. Keep on.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 18, 2012
at 12:04 AM

I like how your tag is "trolling." LOL! I sometimes feel like a troll b/c people here disagree so adamantly about my dietary choices. And yet, I'm the one who has been paleo 1/3 of my life.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 18, 2012
at 12:01 AM

I have no problem with eating butter. It's just that first you need to domesticate some aurochs. That didn't happen in paleo times. Verrry Neolithic.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 18, 2012
at 12:00 AM

@ Matthew- maybe because he was eating other inflammatory foods, like a lot of wheat/gluten and nonfat dairy.

59fa7cd87fb9d669adf21e5cf3e7ada5

on May 18, 2012
at 12:00 AM

It's not that fat is bad, it's eating, drinking and bathing in enormous quantities of lard that is the problem.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 17, 2012
at 11:58 PM

I like DKs post because he is doing what is getting him results. I believe he just posted and mentioned how he can see his abs for the first time in his life.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 17, 2012
at 11:57 PM

Of course. I expect this question to be closed before we finish our smokes around the campfire here.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 17, 2012
at 11:50 PM

@ Kasra. Word.

Ecb90bbbd5a15868b2592d517a4a5e82

(280)

on May 17, 2012
at 10:47 PM

The fat hypothesis was totally put to bed by the above studies 2-1/2 years ago now. If anyone's still talking about it, they ain't educated. And if the esteemed Cordain is in that group, well, so be it. The science has spoken here, game over.

61844af1187e745e09bb394cbd28cf23

(11058)

on May 17, 2012
at 10:09 PM

Butter is no more processed than slicing a hunk of meat off of the carcass. I frequently make my own butter for the fun of it. It also helps the wee one expend some of his pent up energy!

5447e1f37d3ffa1525dac55be36ee454

(1019)

on May 17, 2012
at 09:51 PM

vessels, based on Keyes' false saturated fat hypothesis, and this does not show that.

5447e1f37d3ffa1525dac55be36ee454

(1019)

on May 17, 2012
at 09:48 PM

First of all I'm not going to recognize about.com a legitimate source of information, but I'll address this first study. Looks like whoever posted the about.com reference above already removed it, from embarrassment I'm assuming. This study showed that there was no HDL anti-inflammatory response to saturated fat, and that there was an HDL anti-inflammatory response to PUFA's. This is most likely because PUFA's cause inflammation and HDL anti-inflammatory response is up-regulated because of that. These researchers desparately trying to find a mechanism by which saturated damage blood...

5ef574d7893bc816ec52e04139e9bc09

(6097)

on May 17, 2012
at 09:48 PM

It was me .

A08b210e4da7e69cd792bddc1f4aae4b

(1031)

on May 17, 2012
at 09:45 PM

I don't think fire and rocks were a recent invention. :)

A08b210e4da7e69cd792bddc1f4aae4b

(1031)

on May 17, 2012
at 09:36 PM

@Amy, right on. I try to avert my gaze when my coworkers get their food out, and bite my tongue to stop saying anything inappropriate!

0a819d945f30ae46a104d7a14e50e739

(105)

on May 17, 2012
at 09:21 PM

Did you read "Good Calories, Bad Calories" yet? are you still reading those population studies? Correlation <> Causation. Remember that.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 17, 2012
at 08:58 PM

There goes the fat PrimalDanny. You need to get yourself a smoker.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on May 17, 2012
at 08:54 PM

What's that sizzling sound I keep hearing as I turn the hog on the spit?

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 17, 2012
at 08:51 PM

True enough warren, but unless you process the fat you can't raise the dietary % to current paleo levels. You can only go as high as the meat, and there you'd be lucky to get to 25% fat. I look at the fat yield I get on a duck by rendering and it's pretty small. A paleo cooking the same duck in a pit would lose even that fat.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1507)

on May 17, 2012
at 08:50 PM

this is pretty much the answer to the question, imo.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1507)

on May 17, 2012
at 08:49 PM

boo, i hate that!

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 17, 2012
at 08:39 PM

I got down voted for having a little fun (and not for the first time on this oh so serious site! lol)

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 17, 2012
at 08:34 PM

Animal fat does not have to be processed.

5ef574d7893bc816ec52e04139e9bc09

(6097)

on May 17, 2012
at 08:33 PM

^ What is real food?

5ef574d7893bc816ec52e04139e9bc09

(6097)

on May 17, 2012
at 08:32 PM

Yeah, most of what you're saying does not make sense.

5ef574d7893bc816ec52e04139e9bc09

(6097)

on May 17, 2012
at 08:31 PM

I have not met a single person who is obsessed or even mildly concerned with any of those things. I think the obsession is largely concentrated in the small subpopulation of people that visit forums like this.

5ef574d7893bc816ec52e04139e9bc09

(6097)

on May 17, 2012
at 08:27 PM

Marcy, Greensun made a legitimate point. You provide no response and resort to attacking the pejorative tone that you perceived.

3351f6c8ec1ea64435e419f380ca6468

(1255)

on May 17, 2012
at 08:24 PM

Edited my original answer for accuracy - thanks!

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 17, 2012
at 08:20 PM

People here ignore the fact that the most extensively studied modern day paleos, the Kitavans, eat 80/10/10

276a5e631b62f8e0793987c0496364bb

(1644)

on May 17, 2012
at 08:07 PM

The Pukapukans and Tokelauans obtain 34% and 63%, respectively, of their energy from saturated fat from coconuts.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 17, 2012
at 08:07 PM

I think paleos were obsessed with finding food. Move to eat, eat to move.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 17, 2012
at 08:04 PM

Only if joined to a NY strip.

F524eaa9d58e5cd2d2368ff7bfffda9c

(480)

on May 17, 2012
at 08:04 PM

Greensun thanks for bringing this to light. I hope to hear more from you on this topic.

0d0842381492a41b2173a04014aae810

(4875)

on May 17, 2012
at 07:51 PM

Thanks Marcy. Much more elegant than my knee-jerk reaction was!

5447e1f37d3ffa1525dac55be36ee454

(1019)

on May 17, 2012
at 07:46 PM

Bodyfat is partially palmitic acid, but probably only around 30% palmitic acid. There are many types of fatty acids that can make up the triglycerides that are stored in adipose tissue.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1507)

on May 17, 2012
at 07:36 PM

Matthew, what do you make of the studies cited above? (1) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16904539 and (2)http://heartdisease.about.com/od/reducingcardiacrisk/a/fatHDL.htm

59fa7cd87fb9d669adf21e5cf3e7ada5

on May 17, 2012
at 07:25 PM

I have always wondered the same thing, they want to bathe in fat, they can't get enough of the stuff. They want to guzzle it by the quart.

Fd70d71f4f8195c3a098eda4fc817d4f

(8014)

on May 17, 2012
at 07:14 PM

Personally, I get a kick out of eating 3 HB eggs and taking my coffee with heavy cream while watching my coworkers with their fat-free yogurts, Nutri-Grain bars and fat-free/skim/soy latte. I'd be STARVING an hour later. And probably cranky, too.

A97b68379a576dfa764a4828304d2efb

(4181)

on May 17, 2012
at 07:11 PM

People are "obsessed" with peanut butter. The folks around here who follow a (specific) high fat diet do so out of concern for their health and longevity, not obsession with fat. This approach is based on scientific research and extensive discussion about the health benefits of the paleo lifestyle. If you have a legitimate criticism or point to make about consuming fat, I would re-phrase your question without the pejorative tone designed to rile up a community of people who believe they are making the right decision for their health.

4d8ad2f7c42197b98b6b5443a57a7fe2

(20)

on May 17, 2012
at 06:56 PM

So just eat real food, don't stress about it.

5447e1f37d3ffa1525dac55be36ee454

(1019)

on May 17, 2012
at 06:53 PM

My uncle followed very low-fat diet for ten years, very similar to the Ornish diet. He was skinny as a rail, and didn't smoke or drink. After ten years he had a heart attack and 90% blockages were found in his arteries. He was so confused, having never touched fat for ten years. How did that happen?

E8c2167284f0cdd16a12bea2741975b4

(476)

on May 17, 2012
at 06:41 PM

I don't see how measuring blood levels of fat is nearly as functional of a study as a coronary angiogram. And I bring this up only because this is th study ornish and essylstein use to measure the reduced risk of blockages following a low fat diet. This is a much more novel and sophisticated test than a calcium score that dr William Davis uses, the cardiologist who advicates high fat. A coronary angiograms is the next step down from an actual autopsy which I mentioned earlier, that did show associations between a truly paleo high fat diet and the development of endothelial dysfunction

E8c2167284f0cdd16a12bea2741975b4

(476)

on May 17, 2012
at 06:34 PM

What cultures get most of calories from coconut oil? Papua new guinea highlanders eat an almost mono diet of potatoes if that's who you meant.

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on May 17, 2012
at 06:29 PM

How many grams of supplements (of which a very small amount will be stearic acid) do you consume per day?

Medium avatar

(1029)

on May 17, 2012
at 06:18 PM

http://heartdisease.about.com/od/reducingcardiacrisk/a/fatHDL.htm

Medium avatar

(1029)

on May 17, 2012
at 06:17 PM

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16904539

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1507)

on May 17, 2012
at 06:10 PM

links please?..

11838116de44ae449df0563f09bd3d73

(655)

on May 17, 2012
at 06:09 PM

Is extensive endothelial damage seen in cultures that obtain most of their calories from coconut oil?

3e50edec642d6b3ed1dec90c7b91a25c

(75)

on May 17, 2012
at 06:08 PM

"damaging effects of excessive saturated fats" - Substantiate?

  • E8c2167284f0cdd16a12bea2741975b4

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19 Answers

24
Fd70d71f4f8195c3a098eda4fc817d4f

(8014)

on May 17, 2012
at 07:11 PM

Some people here eat a lot more fat than others. Some people like fat more than others. Some people do very low carb and high fat, others do more carbs and lower fat. Some people go out of their way to add fat to their diet (coconut oil in their coffee, a giant pat of butter on steamed veggies), while others just eat it as it occurs naturally in the typical foods they eat (not cutting every last inch of fat off a steak, enjoying an avocado).

I don't think anyone here is "obsessed" with fat. What I think happens is that most of us, for most of our lives, were bombarded with the message that...cue the scary music...FAT IS BAD. (More specifically, SATURATED FAT from ANIMALS [especially RED MEAT!] will MAKE YOU FAT and KILL YOU!!!)

So to find out that, no, in fact, fat is a very vital part of the human diet and can actually make us FEEL GOOD (more balanced moods, better/longer satiety, no blood glucose roller coaster), it's just FREAKING NICE TO BE ABLE TO EAT IT AGAIN!! (In whatever quantity each individual deems right for them.)

Fd70d71f4f8195c3a098eda4fc817d4f

(8014)

on May 17, 2012
at 07:14 PM

Personally, I get a kick out of eating 3 HB eggs and taking my coffee with heavy cream while watching my coworkers with their fat-free yogurts, Nutri-Grain bars and fat-free/skim/soy latte. I'd be STARVING an hour later. And probably cranky, too.

0d0842381492a41b2173a04014aae810

(4875)

on May 18, 2012
at 12:20 AM

It sure is hard to bite one's tongue when the coworker in question says "OMG broccoli and meat for breakfast, gross! you eat the WEIRDEST THINGS!." I snapped on some poor fat-free yogurt eater in my office the other morning. She'll never look at me in the eyes again.

A08b210e4da7e69cd792bddc1f4aae4b

(1031)

on May 17, 2012
at 09:36 PM

@Amy, right on. I try to avert my gaze when my coworkers get their food out, and bite my tongue to stop saying anything inappropriate!

23
7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on May 17, 2012
at 07:04 PM

Peter at Hyperlipid has taken aim at the anti-palmitic acid studies before:

Palmitic acid based food vs olive oil or corn oil supplements, Palmitic acid the horror never ends, Palmitic acid the horror never ends: addendum, Palmitic acid the horror never ends: speculation.

So, I, and many of my fellow paleohackers are coming out of a very awesome time where people like Peter blogged regularly, and if it was a crap study, it's crappiness was very sarcastically pointed out. And much glee was had in paleo and low carb circles. Yes, we were one big happy family back then, everybody was just getting along and making fun of mainstream science and laughing at the vegans... oh yeah, and I lost +100lbs while eating something like 70% fat. Anyway, I don't know whether or not this addresses the particular study you had in mind, but if you read these posts then you could very possibly imagine the argument he would make about it.

13
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 17, 2012
at 07:49 PM

Fat is the food of the gods.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1507)

on May 17, 2012
at 08:49 PM

boo, i hate that!

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 17, 2012
at 08:04 PM

Only if joined to a NY strip.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 17, 2012
at 08:39 PM

I got down voted for having a little fun (and not for the first time on this oh so serious site! lol)

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 18, 2012
at 05:24 AM

Fat doesn't give me diarrhea.

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on May 18, 2012
at 12:16 AM

...it is until you have diarrhea squirting out of your ass.

Fb67dc30cead043d1d13ea503a3044dc

(3280)

on May 18, 2012
at 08:01 AM

Fat IS the food of the gods; Greek myth has the fat as being the bits of animal sacrifice most pleasing to the gods. Old Testament too. People back then knew what was valuable in a slaughtered critter. :)

276a5e631b62f8e0793987c0496364bb

(1644)

on May 18, 2012
at 01:28 AM

Wouldn't that indicate fat malabsorption?

5ef574d7893bc816ec52e04139e9bc09

(6097)

on May 17, 2012
at 09:48 PM

It was me .

13
3351f6c8ec1ea64435e419f380ca6468

(1255)

on May 17, 2012
at 06:43 PM

Your bodyfat contains palmitic acid. So, are you saying that every time you use your own bodyfat for energy, you're damaging your blood vessels? How does that make any sense at all?

5447e1f37d3ffa1525dac55be36ee454

(1019)

on May 17, 2012
at 07:46 PM

Bodyfat is partially palmitic acid, but probably only around 30% palmitic acid. There are many types of fatty acids that can make up the triglycerides that are stored in adipose tissue.

3351f6c8ec1ea64435e419f380ca6468

(1255)

on May 17, 2012
at 08:24 PM

Edited my original answer for accuracy - thanks!

11
5447e1f37d3ffa1525dac55be36ee454

on May 17, 2012
at 06:15 PM

As an energy source for the body fat causes less oxidative stress than glucose.

Fat and glucose are essentially the only two options for fueling the body here, because with a high protein diet excess protein will be converted to glucose and used as fuel. So, a high fat diet with moderate protein intake and low carbohydrate intake will be a diet that causes the least amount of oxidative stress. Glucose also runs the risk of causing AGE's.

Ironically enough, high fat intake doesn't cause chronically high serum levels of palmitic acid (triglycerides). Fructose and ethanol are the biggest contributors of chronically high serum levels of palmitic acid (triglycerides).

If you have found my answer informative, then please visit my website, for more insightful and Paleo-related information.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1507)

on May 18, 2012
at 03:33 AM

@Matthew, thanks for addressing the study--but I think your interpretation of the study is off. It looks to me that the study is saying NOT that sat fat had NO effect on HDL, but as compared to a fasting state, consuming sat fat makes HDL LESS effective at anti-inflammatory functions. In addition, it inhibited vaso-dilation (a point you didn't address yet). I'm not trying to be snarky, genuinely hoping someone can explain this away, as I want to enjoy my sat fat but lack the expertise to debunk this.

E8c2167284f0cdd16a12bea2741975b4

(476)

on May 17, 2012
at 06:41 PM

I don't see how measuring blood levels of fat is nearly as functional of a study as a coronary angiogram. And I bring this up only because this is th study ornish and essylstein use to measure the reduced risk of blockages following a low fat diet. This is a much more novel and sophisticated test than a calcium score that dr William Davis uses, the cardiologist who advicates high fat. A coronary angiograms is the next step down from an actual autopsy which I mentioned earlier, that did show associations between a truly paleo high fat diet and the development of endothelial dysfunction

5447e1f37d3ffa1525dac55be36ee454

(1019)

on May 17, 2012
at 09:51 PM

vessels, based on Keyes' false saturated fat hypothesis, and this does not show that.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 18, 2012
at 12:43 AM

@ matthew- maybe it was because he was eating an unhealthy, inflammatory diet otherwise. Perhaps he was eating nonfat dairy, wheat/gluten, refined sugar, refined grains, etc. A low fat diet (sub 10% of calories) in the presence of abundant fruits, tubers, vegetables, and some flesh for protein and a little fat for taste is extremely healthy. Look at the Kitavans!

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1507)

on May 17, 2012
at 07:36 PM

Matthew, what do you make of the studies cited above? (1) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16904539 and (2)http://heartdisease.about.com/od/reducingcardiacrisk/a/fatHDL.htm

5447e1f37d3ffa1525dac55be36ee454

(1019)

on May 18, 2012
at 04:20 PM

PaleoVenus, You are right on that, I summarized incorrectly, but this would make my point stronger that there is a possibility that anti-inflammatory HDL activity is down-regualted because saturated fat is so stabe, and unlikely to oxidize, it may provide a protective/anti-inflammatory benefit itself. This is very similar to how the body down-regualtes it's own production of antioxidants when supplementing with dietary antioxidants. FMD only decresead 2% with sat fat, and 1% with PUFA's. That's kind of nothing, wouldn't you agreee?

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 18, 2012
at 11:50 PM

@Matthew- The Hallejuia diet is not a low fat diet- it includes olive oil, nut butters, nuts, gluten grains, "vegan mayonnaise", beans and legumes. THis is not a healthy diet, and neither is it a low fat one, necessarily.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1507)

on May 18, 2012
at 03:33 AM

(for the record, the about.com article just summarized the Nicholls study--helpful if you can use a breakdown, but agreed, not a primary source).

5447e1f37d3ffa1525dac55be36ee454

(1019)

on May 17, 2012
at 09:48 PM

First of all I'm not going to recognize about.com a legitimate source of information, but I'll address this first study. Looks like whoever posted the about.com reference above already removed it, from embarrassment I'm assuming. This study showed that there was no HDL anti-inflammatory response to saturated fat, and that there was an HDL anti-inflammatory response to PUFA's. This is most likely because PUFA's cause inflammation and HDL anti-inflammatory response is up-regulated because of that. These researchers desparately trying to find a mechanism by which saturated damage blood...

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 18, 2012
at 12:00 AM

@ Matthew- maybe because he was eating other inflammatory foods, like a lot of wheat/gluten and nonfat dairy.

5447e1f37d3ffa1525dac55be36ee454

(1019)

on May 17, 2012
at 06:53 PM

My uncle followed very low-fat diet for ten years, very similar to the Ornish diet. He was skinny as a rail, and didn't smoke or drink. After ten years he had a heart attack and 90% blockages were found in his arteries. He was so confused, having never touched fat for ten years. How did that happen?

5447e1f37d3ffa1525dac55be36ee454

(1019)

on May 18, 2012
at 04:21 PM

Just because the body down-regulates antioxidant production should we assume that consuming anti-oxidants is detrimental to health?

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 18, 2012
at 02:18 PM

Matthew: What evidence is there for fats causing less oxidative stress than carbs? Also, palmitic acid in the free fatty acid form is where the concern is. Excessive levels are implicated in insulin resistance and other 'lipotoxic' effects.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 18, 2012
at 11:55 PM

...Here's the site I got that info from http://www.hacres.com/hallelujah-diet/explanation

5447e1f37d3ffa1525dac55be36ee454

(1019)

on May 18, 2012
at 04:11 PM

ForeverYoung, He was on the hallelujah diet. Doesn't get much "healthier" than that.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1507)

on May 23, 2012
at 03:19 PM

@Matthew, ah, i see--ok. Thank you for taking the time to explain. Though I think both explanations (yours and the study's) are equally hypothetical at this point. but fwiw, I'm inclined to support the hypo you endorse, given the other evidence about sat fat (and because I want to keep eating it.) :)

10
9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 19, 2012
at 02:37 AM

Please don't abuse mummies, it's not nice. Maybe it's time for us to tell Cordain, a professer of exercise science, to maybe not try to make health proclamations based on archaeological finds he clearly doesn't understand.

9
E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on May 17, 2012
at 06:40 PM

Those are some interesting hypothetical mechanisms you've got there, shame they don't work in reality. (Krauss meta-analyses 1 and 2).

Ecb90bbbd5a15868b2592d517a4a5e82

(280)

on May 17, 2012
at 10:47 PM

The fat hypothesis was totally put to bed by the above studies 2-1/2 years ago now. If anyone's still talking about it, they ain't educated. And if the esteemed Cordain is in that group, well, so be it. The science has spoken here, game over.

E7adfe31507efb7c935f618a829f56d6

(1507)

on May 17, 2012
at 08:50 PM

this is pretty much the answer to the question, imo.

6b8d12fc3e43179f9ae1765a4d1a9dc2

(5914)

on May 19, 2012
at 09:42 PM

What do you make of the comment - "Clinical trials that replaced saturated fat with polyunsaturated fat have generally shown a reduction in CVD events"

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on May 21, 2012
at 09:37 AM

Stephan on WHS has posted about this (http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/diet-heart-controlled-trials-new.html) and more in the same series. A couple of things to bear in mind are that these trials often replace trans fat, as well as SFA and increase o3 and o3:o6 ratio.

7
B4b56fcc5ebad76ed8e1709dedf01f86

on May 17, 2012
at 06:23 PM

I don't think it's surprising that a fair number of people who are drawn to this diet are somewhat extremist, so it follows that they might take things to an extreme or be drawn to more extreme self-experimentation.

As someone who struggled with craving and overeating industrial crap on SAD, I've found that my increased fat intake has really helped me to feel much better overall (reduced anxiety and dramatically improved sleep, among others) and ultimately those things matter to me far more than living until I'm 90.

6
Da2c728c093488e4f2ea87b81619682f

on May 17, 2012
at 11:45 PM

I'm currently eating a high fat diet because I find that it helps my mental health problems, as well as my appetite (I'm less prone to binging on all the SAD foods). So far it's been working pretty well. In the future that may change, but for now, it's a pretty high fat diet for me, and it helps.

6
65125edd5aafad39b3d5b3a8b4a36bb7

on May 17, 2012
at 06:58 PM

I think in general, people in western society just obsess about food. Whether it's obsessing about dessert, obsessing about fat, obsessing against fat, obsessing about carbs, obsessing about sugar, obsessing about their next meal, etc. etc.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 17, 2012
at 08:07 PM

I think paleos were obsessed with finding food. Move to eat, eat to move.

5ef574d7893bc816ec52e04139e9bc09

(6097)

on May 17, 2012
at 08:31 PM

I have not met a single person who is obsessed or even mildly concerned with any of those things. I think the obsession is largely concentrated in the small subpopulation of people that visit forums like this.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on May 18, 2012
at 12:42 AM

I agree with David. While I like talking about nutrition and discussing food on these boards, I think more people in the US would be better off viewing food more as fuel. It is straight up no good to view food, any food, as a reward. This, unfortunately, is now common and even professed as fine for raising children, etc. Eat to fuel the rest of your life of moving, loving, working, playing, etc.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on May 19, 2012
at 10:37 AM

If people in the US would see food as fuel they would just go to McDonalds every day. After all, we want the cheapest and easiest to get fuel, right? Seriously, there's nothing wrong with obsession if it works. I see quite some people obsess about particular food, Kasra. You seem to be under the impression that only people on here try to get healthy. The amount of people around me that still avoid fat like the plague because it would make them fat... When I was a kid I was obsessed with chocolate and candy. And what kid isn't, really?

5
E7e7e1c856d4494d4a1b700b6869df90

(982)

on May 17, 2012
at 08:26 PM

Why would anyone need to seek out Paleo to eat/justify eating fat in higher amounts? They would give up the high fat and high carb crap diet to do "that"??

haha..no logic there for fat obsessed. I have eaten high fat 50 years....and so did my grandparents...lo-o-ng before Paleo was a model of any diet plan.

D8c04730b5d016a839b3c5b932bf59dd

(823)

on May 18, 2012
at 03:47 AM

My great-grandpa made his own sauerkraut in the basement all his life. He liked to say, 'you gotta have gravy, so the kraut slides down.' and he was eating it with a nice pork butt roast from pigs he raised, too.

D8c04730b5d016a839b3c5b932bf59dd

(823)

on May 18, 2012
at 03:47 AM

oh, and also, great-grandma made pie-crusts with lard. :9

4
66974b2cb291799dcd661b7dec99a9e2

(11121)

on May 17, 2012
at 08:53 PM

Human fat & pig fat are very close in composition. A good article here: http://freetheanimal.com/2009/04/losing-weight-is-pretty-much-like-eating-lard.html

3
C4f1a0c70c4e0dea507c2e346c036bbd

on May 17, 2012
at 10:22 PM

Hasn't this been covered in detail before here?

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 17, 2012
at 11:57 PM

Of course. I expect this question to be closed before we finish our smokes around the campfire here.

C4f1a0c70c4e0dea507c2e346c036bbd

on May 19, 2012
at 04:06 AM

http://paleohacks.com/questions/12638/could-we-modern-paleos-be-eating-too-much-saturated-fat#axzz1vHjewnYS That looks pretty similar.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 19, 2012
at 02:35 AM

Yes, I'm looking for the dupe and can't find it though. Can anyone point the way?

3
Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 17, 2012
at 07:56 PM

The more I've thought about it the less sense it makes to call high fat diets Paleo. Our paleo ancestors had no cooking vessels. Lard, tallow and butter all require processing - they are Neolithic foods in every sense. Matesz projects a paleo diet which is very similar to the Med, with lower fat content than most SAD diets, and 50% carbs.

High fat diets only became popular with Dr. Atkins. Maybe he's the ancestor of modern Paleo dieting. It has little to do with what real Paleos ate.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 17, 2012
at 08:34 PM

Animal fat does not have to be processed.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 18, 2012
at 12:01 AM

I have no problem with eating butter. It's just that first you need to domesticate some aurochs. That didn't happen in paleo times. Verrry Neolithic.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on May 17, 2012
at 08:54 PM

What's that sizzling sound I keep hearing as I turn the hog on the spit?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 19, 2012
at 05:46 AM

Even the equator does not look like a Del Monte commercial.

A08b210e4da7e69cd792bddc1f4aae4b

(1031)

on May 17, 2012
at 09:45 PM

I don't think fire and rocks were a recent invention. :)

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 18, 2012
at 05:30 PM

Even out of season, animals carry a fair amount of fat. Btw, Have you seen just how little fruit there is in the wild? Good luck to anyone trying to gorge on wild fruit for a season.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 18, 2012
at 12:32 PM

I realize that too Warren, but I think it's a stretch yo think it was like the high fat LC paleo diet. Game animals are kind of like fruit. They're fat in season. When fat was available paleos gorged on it in the same way they gorged on fruit in season. For long periods they had to get by on next to nothing.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 17, 2012
at 08:51 PM

True enough warren, but unless you process the fat you can't raise the dietary % to current paleo levels. You can only go as high as the meat, and there you'd be lucky to get to 25% fat. I look at the fat yield I get on a duck by rendering and it's pretty small. A paleo cooking the same duck in a pit would lose even that fat.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 17, 2012
at 08:58 PM

There goes the fat PrimalDanny. You need to get yourself a smoker.

61844af1187e745e09bb394cbd28cf23

(11058)

on May 17, 2012
at 10:09 PM

Butter is no more processed than slicing a hunk of meat off of the carcass. I frequently make my own butter for the fun of it. It also helps the wee one expend some of his pent up energy!

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 18, 2012
at 09:19 PM

Our ancestors were equatorial and would have had more fruits available than a few berries. Regarding the meat, big game is a race with the maggots and choicer fatty bits are eaten first. Small game, mollusks and birds would have been eaten completely.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 18, 2012
at 05:30 AM

thhq There are plenty of very fatty parts on a lot of mammals. There is no law in the wild that even the leanest parts of an animal must be eaten. I've read historical accounts of lots of wastage at kill sites. Fatty parts and organs being taken and much of the rest being left behind.

1
A08b210e4da7e69cd792bddc1f4aae4b

(1031)

on May 18, 2012
at 11:12 PM

The human race are opportunistic omnivores, top of the food chain. We got to where we are by being excellent hunters, consuming the best parts of the beast. By figuring out how to cook meat we were able to pre-digest food meaning we could have smaller bellies and consume more nutrients to grow bigger brains. The point of the Paleo paradigm is to figure out what to eat for optimum health; if that means eating lots of saturated fats so be it. The jury is still out on what 'optimum' is, that's why we're here on PH, but we're pretty confident from evolutionary theory and personal experience that meat is a more likely source of healthy nutrients than grass seeds (i.e. wheat products), high-fructose corn syrup and trans fats -- mmm, Twinkie anyone?!

1
C3bc92e6b5eba45dc55f43ac3c70cc25

on May 18, 2012
at 02:17 AM

Orthorexia. Some folks take it to the extreme. I read on another paleo fourm (the equivalent of 30 BAD) about some guy who ate nothing except homemade pemmican. Supposedly he was thriving from it. Cured all his illnesses, hasn't. Pooped since starting his pemmican fast. Then he got his family involved.

C3bc92e6b5eba45dc55f43ac3c70cc25

on May 18, 2012
at 11:27 AM

Lol yea reminds me of that crazy raw food family from Wife Swap.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 18, 2012
at 02:41 AM

I like stories like this. Xtreme paleo or jackass paleo. Tough call.

0
7cf9f5b08a41ecf2a2d2bc0b31ea6fa0

on May 17, 2012
at 06:42 PM

Jesus christ now fat is bad? Seems like everyone's got an opinion on why one thing or another is bad. How are we meant to know what to do with such conflicting information???

59fa7cd87fb9d669adf21e5cf3e7ada5

on May 18, 2012
at 12:00 AM

It's not that fat is bad, it's eating, drinking and bathing in enormous quantities of lard that is the problem.

7cf9f5b08a41ecf2a2d2bc0b31ea6fa0

(4176)

on May 18, 2012
at 12:14 AM

Kasra, good question!

4d8ad2f7c42197b98b6b5443a57a7fe2

(20)

on May 17, 2012
at 06:56 PM

So just eat real food, don't stress about it.

5ef574d7893bc816ec52e04139e9bc09

(6097)

on May 17, 2012
at 08:33 PM

^ What is real food?

-1
531b053b68e92ac509fc1544f88dc103

(1205)

on May 17, 2012
at 06:01 PM

I eat a high fat diet but it's VERY specific and controlled. I eat tons of macadamia nuts (for healthy monounsaturated fats) and tons of salmon and sardines (from BPA free cans of course) for my Omega 3s. That's it! All my meats are lean and I eat tons of vegetables and a little fruit. Here and there I'll have an egg or two, but I even limit those. There's already plenty of saturated fats in salmon, chicken, and eggs - why add more? Grass-fed burgers is like my once a month treat instead of eating something stupid like a pastry or cookie.

I never cook on a frying pan anymore either so I don't have to use any oils. All my meats are broiled or baked in a pot with herbs and spices. The only other oil that gets into my body is extra virgin olive oil on my salads.

I eat like this because I'm well aware of the damaging effects of excessive saturated fats. Why take the risk and find out the hard way?

As a side note, if you're like me and take a lot of supplements, you'll find they're all laced with stearic acid as a preservative. Watch out!

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on May 17, 2012
at 06:29 PM

How many grams of supplements (of which a very small amount will be stearic acid) do you consume per day?

0a819d945f30ae46a104d7a14e50e739

(105)

on May 17, 2012
at 09:21 PM

Did you read "Good Calories, Bad Calories" yet? are you still reading those population studies? Correlation <> Causation. Remember that.

5ef574d7893bc816ec52e04139e9bc09

(6097)

on May 17, 2012
at 08:32 PM

Yeah, most of what you're saying does not make sense.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 17, 2012
at 11:58 PM

I like DKs post because he is doing what is getting him results. I believe he just posted and mentioned how he can see his abs for the first time in his life.

3e50edec642d6b3ed1dec90c7b91a25c

(75)

on May 17, 2012
at 06:08 PM

"damaging effects of excessive saturated fats" - Substantiate?

1dd1d4bde5b46b4c90efeadea3a96a75

(180)

on May 19, 2012
at 07:55 AM

Why would beef be more dangerous to us than fish? So you believe our ancestors learned to create hooks with lines, boats, and nets before they could hunt or scavenge any land animals? Do you think we were extracting oil from olives for hundreds of thousands of years? Gathering high quantities of nuts (from trees that weren't even in the same areas as humans until the last 10,000 or so years)? And taking magic supplements? You're still stuck in the mindset of conventional wisdom.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on May 19, 2012
at 10:46 AM

D.K., are you taking thyroid meds? I'd freaking die on your diet.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 19, 2012
at 02:24 AM

If carbs drive insulin which drives fat, why is does Gary Taubes have a keg?

-1
0d0842381492a41b2173a04014aae810

(4875)

on May 17, 2012
at 05:57 PM

How about some links to substantiate your case? I couldn't find anything of the sort on Google.

Palmitic acid IS produced in the body via lipogenesis, however - and you don't mention a dosage threshold, do you contest that our bodies are producing something that is damaging to itself in any quantity?

PS - a lard based hot tub sounds appropriate for the next paleo get together...

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