6

votes

No fat in the presence of carbs?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created March 02, 2012 at 12:10 AM

I read "Primal Body, Primal Mind", and among many valid points, the one that stuck out to me was the authors strict insistence on avoiding the consumption of fat in the presence of carbs. Healthy fats are great but you shouldn't pair them with carbs because that will cause weight gain. Soooooo..... should I not be coating my sweet potato in butter or olive oil when baking?? Should I avoid sauteeing my veggies in CO? I'm confused!

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on March 03, 2012
at 06:30 AM

+1 - Nice one. :)

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on March 03, 2012
at 12:19 AM

@jrdn: Here's context for you. http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/06/food-reward-dominant-factor-in-obesity_28.html

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on March 03, 2012
at 12:13 AM

@jrdn: Please tell me what you think the context was/is for the recommendation.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on March 02, 2012
at 11:51 PM

don't address the millions of black swans flying around out there. Let me be clear as to what I am saying. Low carb is great for some people depending on their metabolic health or even epigenetics. Low carb is not great for everyone. Villifying starch when some of the most healthiest groups in the world live off of majority starch is intellectually dangerous and leaves you with a steep hill to climb- one that I don't think you have even gotten halfway up yet.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on March 02, 2012
at 11:49 PM

Nora, I'm going say this as respectfully as possible. I had a very very difficult time listening to your podcast because I was waiting for you to explain how come millions of people, eating a toxin-free diet(gluten, industrial seed oils, excessive fructose), do very well on a high starch diet. I'm not a scientist, nor a doctor, however, I am a lifelong obese person who has lost a very large amount of weight- most of it while moderate to heavy carb "paleo". As I much as I respect someone like Ron Rosedale or other thoughtful low-carbers, they lose a ton of credibility with me because they

E242ecf1fecbac866894059f5304b4c6

(318)

on March 02, 2012
at 11:42 PM

^ You're taking that out of context.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on March 02, 2012
at 11:15 PM

@evelyn, I was careful not to mention starches, which raises other issues. Both of those cole vegetables release digestible carbs, and no doubt some VLCers will lump them with the starches for separate cooking. That's what I thought was overengineering it.

Fe29f6658ce67c1ecc4a22e960be7498

(2997)

on March 02, 2012
at 10:27 PM

'Said Aristotle unto Plato, "Have another sweet potato?" Said Plato unto Aristotle, "Thank you, I prefer the bottle.”' Not sure what they'd say about rutabagas though.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on March 02, 2012
at 09:50 PM

Nora the goddess of low carb is here! Yay!

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on March 02, 2012
at 09:40 PM

...although I would say that sweet potato is only moderately more fibrous than white potato, with a 100 gram serving of white potato having 2.4 grams of fiber and 100 gram serving of sweet potato having 3 grams of fiber.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on March 02, 2012
at 09:37 PM

Hi Nora, glad to have you on paleohacks :)

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on March 02, 2012
at 07:56 PM

Hi, Nora! I eat about 1 sweet potato per month or less, so we're in total agreement about my portion control. :-)) Honestly, though, I have more trouble with whites. They taste fabulous in my mouth and 5 minutes later I get unexplained stomach heaves. So I stick pretty much to rutabagas. I have no trouble at all from them and love the taste.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on March 02, 2012
at 02:02 PM

Thanks gydle! @thhq: I'm not sure how to take your comment. I'm not trying to say not to do those things you mention -- I don't consider that mixing carb and fat anyway. I do think that for those who find veggies fattening it ain't the veggies themselves responsible!

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on March 02, 2012
at 09:38 AM

I like T.S. Wiley's description of fat as a condom to protect us from the impact of carbs.

Bf57bcbdc19d4f1728599053acd020ab

(5043)

on March 02, 2012
at 06:29 AM

Great post, Evelyn. Thanks for linking.

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 02, 2012
at 05:33 AM

The whole point of lowering carbs to lose weight is to adapt your body more to burning fat for fuel, and leave your sugar burning (different internal process) dormant. This approach says that any carbs activate your sugar burning which is what you did low carb to avoid. There is some trail an error involved and lots of things like hormonal health.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on March 02, 2012
at 04:55 AM

Why just the carbs? They both contain weight loss slowing calories. It seems like the path of least danger for me is steaming some of that somewhat lean smoked NY strip sitting in the freezer with some of those Brussels sprouts for dinner....hey thanks for the idea!

Medium avatar

(10611)

on March 02, 2012
at 04:48 AM

The nutty ideas people come up with, then turn around and bark about food engineering. I prefer engineering food to taste good not bad. Nothing here convicts me enough to stop sauteeing the broccoli rabe with the sausage or the Brussels sprouts with the bacon.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on March 02, 2012
at 04:44 AM

Well let Nora do as she pleases. It's a three ring circus and she's not the only clown.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on March 02, 2012
at 02:50 AM

If it is "woo" then Stephan Guyenet is into "woo" too. Go back through the FR series and look at his recommendations. Dry potatoes, boys and girls. If you must eat fat, then eat it SEPARATE from the potato. No, not a bite of potato and then a bite of butter. Separate. Eating fat+ starchy carbs especially is big woooo hooooo food reward. And there is, of course, merit to this, no matter how you frame it. It would be a very rare person who would overconsume dry potatoes. So, go Nora and go Stephan.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on March 02, 2012
at 02:17 AM

That recommendation of her's is ridiculous. 99% of the people on this planet eat those macros together at the same time all the time. That combining fat and carbohydrate would magically lead to weight gain is as silly as saying that only calories matter, rather than the holistic view of hormones, calories, macronutrients etc.

8634d4988ced45a68e2a79e69cc01835

(1617)

on March 02, 2012
at 02:08 AM

By that logic, I should be a whale. I'm not..

Ed983a42344945b1ff70fd9597a23493

on March 02, 2012
at 01:47 AM

It's a very delicious problem :)

6b8d12fc3e43179f9ae1765a4d1a9dc2

(5914)

on March 02, 2012
at 01:30 AM

Indeed, I totally agree. However, Taubes theory is that increased insulin makes you store fat, therefore carbs + fat = insulin induced fat storage.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on March 02, 2012
at 01:26 AM

Actually the paring would greatly lower an insulin spike so I don't know what its about.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on March 02, 2012
at 01:24 AM

Yes, the serious truth about my statements that I like a little butter with my sweet potatoes is that I have trouble with either whites or sweets unless there's liberal butter applied. You are not alone! And I think Melissa has the same problem.

Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on March 02, 2012
at 01:22 AM

Got ya, Nance. I didn't perceive that he was talking about calories-in, calories-out. And LOL at this silly name I have. Seeing it in your response looks pretty funny!

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on March 02, 2012
at 01:20 AM

Kidding aside, if they had any leftover fat around when the hunt failed I bet paleo people smeared it on those tubers they dug.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on March 02, 2012
at 01:17 AM

@Anonymous Chump, if you add the carbs without adjusting your protein or fat you may shift from energy deficit to equilibrium or surplus. I've done it both ways.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on March 02, 2012
at 01:16 AM

I thought it was a law that I could only consume sweet potatoes in the presence of butter? Oh, sorry, that's a preference. Never mind.

89a3eb9e05b04102f0a584e438a7da3e

(1136)

on March 02, 2012
at 01:12 AM

or it could just be woo

Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on March 02, 2012
at 01:09 AM

How do the carbs slow it down?

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on March 02, 2012
at 12:50 AM

They could cause weight gain because obviously you would be consuming more calories than if you just ate the starch by itself or the fat by itself. You could easily consume a huge amount of calories.

  • B2cadbf43bddfbb523b8a53155656188

    asked by

    (548)
  • Views
    4.5K
  • Last Activity
    1259D AGO
Frontpage book

Get FREE instant access to our Paleo For Beginners Guide & 15 FREE Recipes!

6 Answers

11
90dfe63132887bc5948e4e23350d9ac7

on March 02, 2012
at 07:07 PM

Dear Nance--

???The deleterious effects of fat have been measured in the presence of high carbohydrate.

A high fat diet in the presence of high carbohydrate is different than a high fat diet in the presence of low carbohydrate.??????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ~Richard Feinman, PhD

When we speak of "high carbohydrate" in this context, we mean sugar and starch, not fibrous veggies (which are fine--even great combined with fat). Fat is less likely to be used as a primary fuel if sugars are present and is more likely to be stored undesirably. With respect to your sweet potato, if you have a weight problem or metabolic dysregulation this is more likely to be an issue. Sweet potatoes are far more fibrous and less "glycemic" than white potatoes, so they are a "better" choice, but I would personally (not telling you what to do) keep that portion to a minimum (especially if functioning in ketosis is your goal) and definitely under 100 grams. My two bits. ~Nora

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on March 02, 2012
at 07:56 PM

Hi, Nora! I eat about 1 sweet potato per month or less, so we're in total agreement about my portion control. :-)) Honestly, though, I have more trouble with whites. They taste fabulous in my mouth and 5 minutes later I get unexplained stomach heaves. So I stick pretty much to rutabagas. I have no trouble at all from them and love the taste.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on March 02, 2012
at 11:51 PM

don't address the millions of black swans flying around out there. Let me be clear as to what I am saying. Low carb is great for some people depending on their metabolic health or even epigenetics. Low carb is not great for everyone. Villifying starch when some of the most healthiest groups in the world live off of majority starch is intellectually dangerous and leaves you with a steep hill to climb- one that I don't think you have even gotten halfway up yet.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on March 02, 2012
at 09:37 PM

Hi Nora, glad to have you on paleohacks :)

Fe29f6658ce67c1ecc4a22e960be7498

(2997)

on March 02, 2012
at 10:27 PM

'Said Aristotle unto Plato, "Have another sweet potato?" Said Plato unto Aristotle, "Thank you, I prefer the bottle.”' Not sure what they'd say about rutabagas though.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on March 02, 2012
at 11:49 PM

Nora, I'm going say this as respectfully as possible. I had a very very difficult time listening to your podcast because I was waiting for you to explain how come millions of people, eating a toxin-free diet(gluten, industrial seed oils, excessive fructose), do very well on a high starch diet. I'm not a scientist, nor a doctor, however, I am a lifelong obese person who has lost a very large amount of weight- most of it while moderate to heavy carb "paleo". As I much as I respect someone like Ron Rosedale or other thoughtful low-carbers, they lose a ton of credibility with me because they

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on March 02, 2012
at 09:50 PM

Nora the goddess of low carb is here! Yay!

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on March 02, 2012
at 09:40 PM

...although I would say that sweet potato is only moderately more fibrous than white potato, with a 100 gram serving of white potato having 2.4 grams of fiber and 100 gram serving of sweet potato having 3 grams of fiber.

6
Ed983a42344945b1ff70fd9597a23493

on March 02, 2012
at 01:22 AM

Well, Nora Gedgaudas is a very low carb promoter. She really doesn't advocate eating root veggies at all, and isn't that into fruit. She does, however, advocate eating fat to satiety with lots of low sugar vegetables and small amounts of meat/eggs. People like Paul Jaminet talk about the importance of adding plenty of fat to your starch to slow down the effect on your blood sugar handling system. I find that with plenty of fat, I feel god including some starchy veggies in my diet. Sans fat, starch is not my friend. Perhaps this is one of those areas where we are all unique, and need to practice self experimentation to determine what works for our own body.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on March 02, 2012
at 01:24 AM

Yes, the serious truth about my statements that I like a little butter with my sweet potatoes is that I have trouble with either whites or sweets unless there's liberal butter applied. You are not alone! And I think Melissa has the same problem.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on March 02, 2012
at 04:44 AM

Well let Nora do as she pleases. It's a three ring circus and she's not the only clown.

Ed983a42344945b1ff70fd9597a23493

on March 02, 2012
at 01:47 AM

It's a very delicious problem :)

5
21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on March 02, 2012
at 09:49 PM

For the bodybuilder wannabe's out there, you might remember this debate from Dr. John Berardi's recommendation on "T-Mag" back in the day. He ends up backing a little away from this recommendation, I believe. Note how one of the roundtable members brings up the word "grok" in the Robert Heinlein context, not in the paleo context :)

If I remember correctly, I did a quick look at pubmed reviews with the exposure being "carb+fat" bolus compared to either alone, and did not find compelling evidence. This was around ten years ago though. Note that this is in isocaloric comparisons.

As mem points out above, this is important for food reward though. Potato alone is very sucky compared to potato+butter+bacon.

Also, large doses of carbohydrate and fat together do have an impact on acute indices of liver health, especially in those with developing NAFLD, NASH, etc.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on March 03, 2012
at 06:30 AM

+1 - Nice one. :)

4
6b8d12fc3e43179f9ae1765a4d1a9dc2

(5914)

on March 02, 2012
at 01:15 AM

Sounds like insulin paranoia. I wouldn't worry about it.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on March 02, 2012
at 09:38 AM

I like T.S. Wiley's description of fat as a condom to protect us from the impact of carbs.

6b8d12fc3e43179f9ae1765a4d1a9dc2

(5914)

on March 02, 2012
at 01:30 AM

Indeed, I totally agree. However, Taubes theory is that increased insulin makes you store fat, therefore carbs + fat = insulin induced fat storage.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on March 02, 2012
at 01:26 AM

Actually the paring would greatly lower an insulin spike so I don't know what its about.

3
24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on March 02, 2012
at 01:20 AM

So long as your calories are in check -- yes those still count -- there's nothing about separating carbs or fats that means a thing.

I recently outlined my own reasons for separating the two but this is from a strategy point of view because I'm not keen on calorie counting. For me, if I eat carbs with minimal fat, or fat with minimal carbs, I'm pretty much OK eating ad libitum. High fat+carb for any extended period will get me in trouble w/o some sort of conscientious control. http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2012/02/separating-carbs-fats-my-rationale.html

Bf57bcbdc19d4f1728599053acd020ab

(5043)

on March 02, 2012
at 06:29 AM

Great post, Evelyn. Thanks for linking.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on March 02, 2012
at 04:48 AM

The nutty ideas people come up with, then turn around and bark about food engineering. I prefer engineering food to taste good not bad. Nothing here convicts me enough to stop sauteeing the broccoli rabe with the sausage or the Brussels sprouts with the bacon.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on March 02, 2012
at 11:15 PM

@evelyn, I was careful not to mention starches, which raises other issues. Both of those cole vegetables release digestible carbs, and no doubt some VLCers will lump them with the starches for separate cooking. That's what I thought was overengineering it.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on March 02, 2012
at 02:02 PM

Thanks gydle! @thhq: I'm not sure how to take your comment. I'm not trying to say not to do those things you mention -- I don't consider that mixing carb and fat anyway. I do think that for those who find veggies fattening it ain't the veggies themselves responsible!

0
E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 02, 2012
at 01:03 AM

If you are doing this to lose some weight, the carbs at some point slow that down. If your weight is fine, don't worry about it.

Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on March 02, 2012
at 01:09 AM

How do the carbs slow it down?

E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 02, 2012
at 05:33 AM

The whole point of lowering carbs to lose weight is to adapt your body more to burning fat for fuel, and leave your sugar burning (different internal process) dormant. This approach says that any carbs activate your sugar burning which is what you did low carb to avoid. There is some trail an error involved and lots of things like hormonal health.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on March 02, 2012
at 04:55 AM

Why just the carbs? They both contain weight loss slowing calories. It seems like the path of least danger for me is steaming some of that somewhat lean smoked NY strip sitting in the freezer with some of those Brussels sprouts for dinner....hey thanks for the idea!

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on March 02, 2012
at 01:17 AM

@Anonymous Chump, if you add the carbs without adjusting your protein or fat you may shift from energy deficit to equilibrium or surplus. I've done it both ways.

Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on March 02, 2012
at 01:22 AM

Got ya, Nance. I didn't perceive that he was talking about calories-in, calories-out. And LOL at this silly name I have. Seeing it in your response looks pretty funny!

Answer Question


Get FREE instant access to our
Paleo For Beginners Guide & 15 FREE Recipes!