8

votes

Is it worse to have increased fats if you are still consuming grains?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created September 15, 2010 at 5:49 PM

Is it worse to have increased saturated fats if you are still consuming grains? Lets say for example you are eating good sources eggs and meat, but still eating pasta and bread? My family is still eating the carbs...trying for less!

My mom has embraced my ideas about paleo eating, but since we don't live in the same house I don't know much about her "cheats."

So, this is not a question about how to incorporate less eating of grains, but the effect grains have on our body in combination of good fats. I imagine we could gain weight easily for one.

04293f705870e1837b8670d3c1cd5f67

(2261)

on November 02, 2010
at 10:50 PM

Good news, my daughter has stopped asking me for bagels. She understands the principals but tries to resist it at times. Just one day at a time. I hadn't thought about rice noodles replacing wheat noodles, I will look for them next time at the grocery store. And there is no chips, cake, or candy, in our house, generally speaking...minus a special occasion

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on November 02, 2010
at 04:06 PM

Maybe it's just me but I wouldn't take Jimmy Moore's advice on some of tee more finer points of our nutrition. Also Ayers has changed his opinion on this issue. Can someone source Wolf's ?

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on November 02, 2010
at 04:03 PM

Art Ayers has changed his opinion of this issue.

88905cfc5bb098ad3830671a1af373a8

(803)

on November 02, 2010
at 03:44 PM

Lacey, Robb Wolf and Jimmy Moore have espoused this view as well.

88905cfc5bb098ad3830671a1af373a8

(803)

on November 02, 2010
at 03:38 PM

Jae, he's talking about family members who start to get the message that saturated fat is not evil so they eat more of it - but they're probably never going to go completely grain-free. That's my parents too. I think there's some risk but Eva's right - perhaps it will lead to moderate or low carb intake and that's a step in the right direction.

88905cfc5bb098ad3830671a1af373a8

(803)

on November 02, 2010
at 03:37 PM

Jae, he's talking abour family members who start to get the message that saturated fat is not evil so they eat more of it - but they're probably never going to go completely grain-free. That's my parents too. I think there's some risk but Eva's right - perhaps it will lead to moderate or low carb intake and that's a step in the right direction.

16ac9720030cbf0908f56da404ab01b9

(289)

on November 02, 2010
at 01:38 PM

I think the Alan Graham piece is based on the work of Mary Enig, as he's a WAPF devotee, so you might want to poke around in her work.

16ac9720030cbf0908f56da404ab01b9

(289)

on November 02, 2010
at 01:33 PM

Art Ayers seems to be the only one in the paleo community who says the presence of grains, sugars, and omega-6 vegetable oils send saturated fat down a different metabolic pathway that results in inflammation. I've read about it elsewhere, though: http://drtimkelly.net/2010/06/omega-3-supports-healthy-immune-response/ http://www.alienview.net/zfat.html (despite the screed-like tone, great explanation of the process) The blame seems to go mostly on PUFAs but anything that creates inflammation will alter the metabolic pathway traveled by satfat.

77732bf6bf2b8a360f523ef87c3b7523

(6157)

on September 16, 2010
at 02:23 PM

I'm not sure I understand this question. Yes, possibly, eating high sat fat and high grains in combination is harmful. But the solution is not to limit sat fat, but rather to limit or eliminate grains. There's no way around this.

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on September 16, 2010
at 06:15 AM

Some regular stepping on the scale will tell you if the weight will be a problem or not. Could be that eating the fats will help moderate the appetite, but it will vary from person to person.

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on September 16, 2010
at 06:10 AM

Cordain is saying saturated fat down regulates LDL receptors. I might be more concerned about this if I believed the lore that LDL in itself causes plaque buildup. But I don't. I think inflammation is the likely culprit. So I don't stress about LDL. Since fat may help calm inflammation, I will go with the fat. I find I often just don't agree so much with Cordain.

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on September 16, 2010
at 06:00 AM

Tim, yes, that is what I was thinking.

Dfd71315b44a74520ead7d6752e70fc7

(678)

on September 16, 2010
at 04:02 AM

Could you hit us up with a link or an old topic title? Not all of us have been here forever so if you got something handy, it would be a big help.

D67e7b481854b02110d5a5b21d6789b1

(4111)

on September 16, 2010
at 02:53 AM

fantastic question!

04293f705870e1837b8670d3c1cd5f67

(2261)

on September 15, 2010
at 09:59 PM

I don't eat any grains personally. I recently cooked green beans in bacon fat and then added butter when served. I thought to myself...hmm this is the BOMB...delicious and my kids are getting all the good fats but also they ate cereal at breakfast/or bread at lunch (example)..(we eat a lot of eggs though but sometimes they just don't want them)..or whatever..yesterday we went out and they had spaghetti...

0d2dec01a5ed9363a9915e111ae13f7e

(4583)

on September 15, 2010
at 09:04 PM

I actually am asking the question, not just being contrary, but DO we know that "Saturated fats become dangerous when mixed with inflammation from grains/sugars"? I'd hedge my bets that saturated fats are healing and healthful and may even blunt the damage from grains/sugars! But, certainly agreed, give up the grains and sugars for optimal health.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on September 15, 2010
at 07:23 PM

I disagree, gut permeation is not limited to one meal/day

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on September 15, 2010
at 07:04 PM

Agreed, break the O6 and sugar, then work on the wheat, it's the hardest to convince people of. But this advice is only good in a no way I'm giving up poison A scenario, eliminate B and C and you'll have more ammo for A

04293f705870e1837b8670d3c1cd5f67

(2261)

on September 15, 2010
at 06:37 PM

yes, I think they could go for that..I was trying the no rice and potatoes along with the no pasta bread...but I should go out and get the non-wheat/gluten products for a starter and do rice or potatoes to avoid the bread/pasta products.

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8 Answers

9
A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on September 15, 2010
at 06:25 PM

No, its still better to use butter/lard/etc than Crisco/canola/soybean oil.

And if you also reduce fructose/sugar/processed foods you are likely going back to the health status pre-1920 - which is much better than today.

Optimal? Nope. But still much healthier. Remember, saturated fat raises HDL, which is associated with less cardiovascular risk.

Wheat, however, is pretty nasty stuff. See if you can't push to non-wheat/non-gluten pastas/breads and such. Even rice and potatoes are better than wheat (far better).

On the topic of whether saturated fat is healthy in the presence of inflammation - the only one who said that it might be bad (that I know of) is Dr. Art Ayers of Cooling Inflammation. But in a recent exchange of comments...

jaime said...
Hi Dr. Ayers,

You mention that saturated fats are ok in the absence of imflammation, but what happen when there IS some sort of inflammatory disease? in that case, What kind of diet is the most recommended?

Great blog BTW!
Thanks

Dr. Art Ayers said...
Jaime,
I wrote this article almost exactly two years ago. My views on saturated fats have changed substantially. The biomedical data show that saturated fats are safer to eat than vegetable oils (O6s). This goes along with the studies that show that low serum lipids are more associated with disease than high serum cholesterol, and that statins and lowering serum lipid had no beneficial impact on heart disease.

I learned a lot in two years and all of it reinforced the idea that getting most calories from saturated fats rather than grain carbs is the foundation for health.

Thanks for the question.

September 4, 2010 6:52 PM

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=196334975274806517&postID=8481461812446383142

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on September 15, 2010
at 07:04 PM

Agreed, break the O6 and sugar, then work on the wheat, it's the hardest to convince people of. But this advice is only good in a no way I'm giving up poison A scenario, eliminate B and C and you'll have more ammo for A

04293f705870e1837b8670d3c1cd5f67

(2261)

on September 15, 2010
at 06:37 PM

yes, I think they could go for that..I was trying the no rice and potatoes along with the no pasta bread...but I should go out and get the non-wheat/gluten products for a starter and do rice or potatoes to avoid the bread/pasta products.

1
4a1966b5bc00a9aefd3abd63b9913284

on September 15, 2010
at 07:57 PM

Here's my take:

Regardless of the other foods that are still in the diet, I'd pretty much always choose whichever fats and oils are more naturally occurring than not. That said, I'd ALWAYS choose butter over vegetable oil, lard over canola, and coconut oil over corn oil. Those tend to all be saturated but the idea that saturated fats are "bad" or unhealthy is really a misnomer. They're actually quite a bit healthier than unsaturated fats (when they're good sources, this doesn't mean trans-fats) since they don't oxidize as easily and have a better chance of being properly utilized in your body and not cause oxidative damage within. Remember, even saturated fats are not 100% saturated- they're going to be possibly 50% saturated and the rest are a mix of UNsaturated fats.

Check out my post on fats & oils here: http://www.balancedbites.com/2010/07/fats-which-to-eat-and-which-to-ditch.html

If your family is at a point where ADDING good foods is easier than removing the bad ones, getting them to supplement with fish oil will help some of the negative omega 6 fat intake from the grains, though it won't help heal their guts. This can be a sticking point for most people- maybe getting them to move to gluten-free grains can be step 1, then so on.

If you want/need more help, I'm always around :)

1
5c46aa85871c36b5e263456aaf4053f8

(193)

on September 15, 2010
at 07:55 PM

Wondering about this I poked around with google some and found a very interesting interview of Dr Cordain: interview.

This interview is linked from this page which also has interesting information (links to some of the studies he mentions).

In short, high saturated fat diets will cause a buildup of arterial plaque. This isn't necessarily dangerous on it's own. Where it does become dangerous is when food such as grains are introduced as this can greatly weaken the plaque.

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on September 16, 2010
at 06:10 AM

Cordain is saying saturated fat down regulates LDL receptors. I might be more concerned about this if I believed the lore that LDL in itself causes plaque buildup. But I don't. I think inflammation is the likely culprit. So I don't stress about LDL. Since fat may help calm inflammation, I will go with the fat. I find I often just don't agree so much with Cordain.

1
A8d95f3744a7a0885894ee0731c9744c

(3761)

on September 15, 2010
at 07:06 PM

I don't think there is a clear cut answer. Saturated fats become dangerous when mixed with inflammation from grains/sugars. As far as paleo eating, it's really all or none as far as health (IMO). You can go all the way, have a "cheat" periodically, but inflammation won't deteriorate until grains and sugar are given up completely.

0d2dec01a5ed9363a9915e111ae13f7e

(4583)

on September 15, 2010
at 09:04 PM

I actually am asking the question, not just being contrary, but DO we know that "Saturated fats become dangerous when mixed with inflammation from grains/sugars"? I'd hedge my bets that saturated fats are healing and healthful and may even blunt the damage from grains/sugars! But, certainly agreed, give up the grains and sugars for optimal health.

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on September 16, 2010
at 06:00 AM

Tim, yes, that is what I was thinking.

16ac9720030cbf0908f56da404ab01b9

(289)

on November 02, 2010
at 01:38 PM

I think the Alan Graham piece is based on the work of Mary Enig, as he's a WAPF devotee, so you might want to poke around in her work.

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on November 02, 2010
at 04:06 PM

Maybe it's just me but I wouldn't take Jimmy Moore's advice on some of tee more finer points of our nutrition. Also Ayers has changed his opinion on this issue. Can someone source Wolf's ?

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on November 02, 2010
at 04:03 PM

Art Ayers has changed his opinion of this issue.

88905cfc5bb098ad3830671a1af373a8

(803)

on November 02, 2010
at 03:44 PM

Lacey, Robb Wolf and Jimmy Moore have espoused this view as well.

16ac9720030cbf0908f56da404ab01b9

(289)

on November 02, 2010
at 01:33 PM

Art Ayers seems to be the only one in the paleo community who says the presence of grains, sugars, and omega-6 vegetable oils send saturated fat down a different metabolic pathway that results in inflammation. I've read about it elsewhere, though: http://drtimkelly.net/2010/06/omega-3-supports-healthy-immune-response/ http://www.alienview.net/zfat.html (despite the screed-like tone, great explanation of the process) The blame seems to go mostly on PUFAs but anything that creates inflammation will alter the metabolic pathway traveled by satfat.

0
Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7304)

on November 02, 2010
at 03:14 PM

One of the groups Weston A. Price studied in nutrition and physical degeneration ate rye bread as well as many fatty dairy products. They still had pretty good health I believe. I would add fat even if you are still eating grains. You'll get fat soluble nutrients and you can gradually start replacing some of the calories from grains.

0
Ffeac890d0d893ac06a931b165850b4c

(70)

on September 16, 2010
at 02:24 PM

I would think that increasing fat would decrease grains. That is assuming that the average caloric intake stays the same. Europeans are known for taking bread or toast and completely slathering it with butter or lard.

0
62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on September 16, 2010
at 06:14 AM

I suspect fat plus carb can easily lead to weight gain. If it doesn't, then it may not be a big deal. I'd just try to eat the more healthy fats and limit the less healthy carbs. Like you could ditch wheat and gluten and have the family eat the safer carbs like tubers and rice. Rice noodles are quite yummy and might serve as a good substitute for wheat noodles. They are easy to find as they are quite popular in asian dishes. Then just have them cut back in general on the carbs and cut out the really crap carbs like chips, cake, candy, etc.

04293f705870e1837b8670d3c1cd5f67

(2261)

on November 02, 2010
at 10:50 PM

Good news, my daughter has stopped asking me for bagels. She understands the principals but tries to resist it at times. Just one day at a time. I hadn't thought about rice noodles replacing wheat noodles, I will look for them next time at the grocery store. And there is no chips, cake, or candy, in our house, generally speaking...minus a special occasion

0
Dfd71315b44a74520ead7d6752e70fc7

(678)

on September 15, 2010
at 07:19 PM

Someone with a better grasp on the science could be really helpful for this question. My personal curiosity is about how long the inflammation lasts after the occassional wheat meal.

From a practical standpoint, if you are forced to eat carbs in a meal (like with your family), I avoid eating saturated fats with that meal. If I'm eating pasta or rice, I'l end up eating lean ground beef or chicken breasts or fish. If there is no extra carbs, I won't shy away from eating fattier cuts of beef or chicken thighs. While there may be no science backing up this strategy, it keeps you mindful of your eating habits. I started eating Primally around the start of the year and it was over the last few months that I slipped off the wagon. I was still primarily primal but my schedule and fatigue and lack of funds pushed me to more of a 65/70 percent ratio of primal eating. I was eating, and especially drinking, a lot more carbs and, for me, the biggest reason for that slip was being less mindful of my eating habits. "I'm hungry, let's eat!" and then you make a bad decision because everyone wants to go to Panera. If you keep thinking about, "Can I eat saturated fats today or am I looking at pasta for dinner tonight?" then you're going to make better decisions more often than not.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on September 15, 2010
at 07:23 PM

I disagree, gut permeation is not limited to one meal/day

04293f705870e1837b8670d3c1cd5f67

(2261)

on September 15, 2010
at 09:59 PM

I don't eat any grains personally. I recently cooked green beans in bacon fat and then added butter when served. I thought to myself...hmm this is the BOMB...delicious and my kids are getting all the good fats but also they ate cereal at breakfast/or bread at lunch (example)..(we eat a lot of eggs though but sometimes they just don't want them)..or whatever..yesterday we went out and they had spaghetti...

Dfd71315b44a74520ead7d6752e70fc7

(678)

on September 16, 2010
at 04:02 AM

Could you hit us up with a link or an old topic title? Not all of us have been here forever so if you got something handy, it would be a big help.

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