2

votes

Interesting quote from Lyle MacDonald on stubborn fat and muscle loss

Asked on August 09, 2015
Created September 05, 2012 at 1:10 PM

In an interview here:

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/215503-tom-venuto-lyle-mcdonald-stubborn-fat-and-how-to-get-rid-o

"Lyle McDonald.....ignoring the contribution from glycogen stores, let???s keep it simple and say that the body has two places to pull calories from when you diet: fat cells and skeletal muscle......

But now consider the opposite situation, where there is little or no fat available for fuel. If the body still has to cover the caloric deficit (from diet, exercise or both), what does it have to do? Break down muscle. And, as everyone who???s dieted to extreme levels of leanness knows, muscle loss accelerates as folks get leaner......

But an inability to mobilize fat for fuel (which is more difficult as you get to the ???stubborn??? areas is probably part of it. Simply: if you can???t get the fat out of fat cells to cover the deficit, the body will go looking for another source of energy and that???s usually skeletal muscle."

I am hitting this wall myself now. Using leangains, I got myself down below 10 % bodyfat...veins in my lower abs visable kinda lean. But my old lower back fat was/is still there!

So two weeks ago, on meat/fat only rest days, i started trimming most of the fat off my cuts (same total grams of meat a day, just less and less fat). I was going for a sort of protein sparing modified fast, protein only, on alternate days.

I've coupled this with brisk walks on those days from hr 15-16 of my fast while drinking copious amounts of green tea, breaking the fast at hr16-18 generally.

Fat melted over my abs. Dropped over a centimeter waist measurement. Abs got veiny. But the handles lost little! I felt REALLY hungry and really wiped out, but I persevered strictly to attain my goal of nuking those stubborn handles.

Workouts began to suffer even though I kept my training day macros and calories the same. I got weaker for the first time on leangains. I looked in the mirror, and I could SEE my muscle disappearing, also a first on this 4 months of leangains! My ab muscles actually shrunk and became less pronounced.

While freaking about what to do, I came across this quote by Lyle. It spoke to EXACTLY what's happening to me! My calorie deficit became low enough, and all my fat that wasn't so stubborn had been burned, that my body had two choices: burn stubborn fat or muscle....and since the stubborn fat wouldn't mobilize, muscle loss has ensued much to my chagrin.

For the present I'm putting my rest day calories (and fat), back to he place theyve been for the four months prior to this PSMF experiment.

But, what about the problem? Does this mean my handles won't go and if I try, my muscle will go?

I'll see if the continued green tea 15th fasting hour walks with a few more calories will work. Lyle also recommends eating protien only when breaking the fast after such fat burning late fasting period cardio bouts, then having fat and protein a few hrs later.

What can be done?

Cfc7dee889a66db9cd76c4f348109294

(1652)

on February 03, 2013
at 04:39 PM

I thought it would be better if you were smiley.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on February 02, 2013
at 04:47 AM

Interesting reads. Actually, in December my mind-body seriously revolted and would have no more dieting no matter what I determined to do each day. Anyway, winter is off season and I usually use it as an excuse to heavy lift, walk slowly, and gain a bit of muscle. Fat comes with that for me, but so be it. The body needs cycles. I'm quite a bit heavier right now, and up to 10-12%BF, but more muscle too. Ill hit the diet again in the spring.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on February 02, 2013
at 04:42 AM

I really hate this iPhone sometimes: "I'm SIMPLY not satisfied with..."

Medium avatar

(2417)

on February 02, 2013
at 04:39 AM

Point taken and sentiment appreciated. First, I'm good at my sport. Second, I like me (tho I have likes and dislikes). But, being ripped and lean is what I like. Right or wrong, I'm smiley not satisfied to just be me and eat well.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on February 02, 2013
at 04:35 AM

Then again, over in Andy's rippedbody.jp site, a guy who weights alot more than me did his cut cycle with 2000/1400 and he is quite muscular.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on February 02, 2013
at 04:24 AM

As I've got little body hair, a child's hairline, I look 10 years younger than I am, and my fat deposits seem around my love handles and chest.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on February 02, 2013
at 04:22 AM

Very interesting. My cals say my TDEE is 2200+, so I was thinking of trying training/rest,@+20%/-20%,2400/1600, low fat high carb/higher fat zero carb, protein 2.5g/kg LBM. What got me leanest, and most muscle loss, was 2000/12-1400, 2.0g protein /lbs LBM. I always keep the fast 16-17hrs except once a week I do a single 5pm feeding. Thing is, when I tried to keep my cal avg 1600 nothing happened at all. Had to go lower. When I eat enough, fat stays. I never gain much muscle on a bulk, mostly fat. Think my estrogen is high(aromatization)and DHT is low...

81181cab058dd652659e4bb2e6f25843

(528)

on December 07, 2012
at 08:02 PM

I dont claim to adhere to the paleo ideals or fundamentals, and as far as I know Paleo diet (emphasis on the diet part...) has nothing to do with insults at all. Now your backtracking and you claimed to just want to lose 'extra fat' however at the BF% you claim to be at it would be incontrovertably unhealthy to try and strip more fat.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 04, 2012
at 11:21 PM

And calling me a pile of shit on this forum is completely uncalled for and unacceptable, so who is the one BASTARDIZING paleo?

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 04, 2012
at 11:17 PM

Paleo is about boldly casting off norms and intrepidly exploring new ways and ideas, testing them, evaluating them, and moving forward. I do not bodybuild. I rock climb. I love it. I'm good at it. Paleo has made me better at it than I was much younger, thru the strength that comes from health. Paleo has also helpede get lean, and shedding dead weight (fat) has improved my climbing immensely. I don't get sick. Ever. I take a fall and heal amazingly quickly. Paleo. That said, I enjoy the shredded look, like a good suit. As long as it doesn't derail my health, I pursue it.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 04, 2012
at 11:12 PM

I think we have a misunderstanding here on the most important point, as far as this forum is concerned: my goal first and foremost has been HEALH improvement, full stop. I've pursued this uncompromisingly for 18 years. I eat paleo for this purpose, because the health attained from doing so inevitably raises life performance mentally, physically, and emotionally, and I for one like to seize the day as it were. All dietary and training efforts are or that end; performance and improvement through health. All goals must meet those criteria.

81181cab058dd652659e4bb2e6f25843

(528)

on December 04, 2012
at 04:37 PM

More delusion and a tenuous grasp of psychology to boot. It is O.K. to want to lean down for esthetic purposes only, however, the fundamental virtue avowed by the adherents to paleo is for Better health. Knowingly bastardizing this virtue is what makes you a fraud.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 04, 2012
at 05:49 AM

I am 64kg BW now.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 04, 2012
at 05:48 AM

Matt,???thanks for the support. I just commented below that guy's slur calling me a human pile of shit. Some people are amazing. As for your details, what are your stats? BW, training calories and grams of P/F/C, rest calories and grams of P/F/C????Im below TDEE both days. Training/Rest 1800/1200cal, 2.5g protein\kg LBM all days, 25/60-70g fat, 230/0 carbs. Train 11am, Eat 12 and 7pm. experimenting with taking in all carbs at nite (CBL style) on training days, and just protein with a bit of fish oil post workout. you are getting alot more carbs eh?

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 04, 2012
at 04:22 AM

In others because they mirror what we hate in ourselves. I find in myself both great beauty and ugliness. Try examining your own self. You don't see me coming into your threads questioning your deep motives and calling you names. If seeking vanity through low bodyfat makes me a pile of shit, then nearly half of the good folks on this forum are guilty. And btw, Freud is credited with changing psychology from the archaic to the new direction, but most sources call Jung the father of modern psychology. Feel as you wish.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 04, 2012
at 04:19 AM

I missed these comments. I'm not sure where this animosity from you towards me is coming from. I simply posted a question/discussion about getting (vainly)lean. Why do you feel it necessary or appropriate to attack my personal character? This prompted my response that you've possibly your own issues you need to deal with. Now, in effect, calling me a low quality human and a pile of shit really shows your true character man. I feel sorry for you. We all have dark and light. Jungs idea was to find, bring into the conscious, and integrate those dark parts that we consciously hate

81181cab058dd652659e4bb2e6f25843

(528)

on October 17, 2012
at 01:32 AM

btw, Freud is the father of modern psych.

81181cab058dd652659e4bb2e6f25843

(528)

on October 17, 2012
at 01:25 AM

Hahaha, you openly admit that your a low quality human and that it's obvious that your such a pile of shit. I could talk with you all day sir. Keep reading Jung 'brah' whatever makes you feel special and relevant.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on October 16, 2012
at 09:43 PM

I think you should lower your protein, keep WO day carbs moderate (I eat zero carb rest days), keep fat in balance with protein (I eat really low fat WO days), and just lower your total cal each week by 100.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on October 16, 2012
at 09:40 PM

I drink more water at days end to replenish as grok woulda done from the river at camp. On those days, I eat 1-2000cal more than my city life leangains days. And no IF. Breakfast of pemmican at 5am, hike and climb all day eating as I go from my mixture of lean beef jerky, a ton of rice/coconut oil/glucose/raisins/seaweed. Dinner is more rice and beef. Protein/fat morning, protein/fat/carb during the hikes, protein/carb load at night. Also, I always eat 2g protein/kg bodyweight, home or hikes, that's it. I think more on a cut cycle just goes to gluconogenesis.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on October 16, 2012
at 09:33 PM

IMO that much water is simply flushing out your minerals. Ive been experimenting with drinking LESS water, and it's working. I climbed nearly 2000m vertical a day for five days last weekend, drinking only 1-2liters during the days, and got LESS dehydrated than when unused to fret over water and drink much more. The body adapts. Btw, those hikes have been my secret weapon. 3-5day, all day, 8hr backpacking journeys in the high mountains; every time I get home I'm leaner by a step.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on October 16, 2012
at 09:27 PM

Lol this FACT! Love the iPhone autocorrects.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on October 16, 2012
at 09:25 PM

It's Jung's insight, the father of modern psychology, not mine. Look it up. Yes, I'm narcissistic. You've yet again pointed out the obvious, which I've already openly admitted on my own. You're a genius.

81181cab058dd652659e4bb2e6f25843

(528)

on October 16, 2012
at 01:56 PM

Your insight in not only fundamentally flawed but you appear to be incredibly narcissistic, pathetically unintelligent, and woefully delusional.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on October 16, 2012
at 12:19 PM

Pretty good. Fall asleep 9-10pm, wake up refreshed with no alarm at 5am every day, never feel sleepy during the day.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on October 16, 2012
at 12:17 PM

I've come to understand this fat Whirl. It's working though.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on October 16, 2012
at 12:16 PM

Funny how people get the most angry about someone that reminds them of something deep within themselves that they hate, some loathed insecurity, some envy, etc. Anyway, have you seen any pro rock climbers? Not an ounce of fat on them, healthy as can be. I strive for health, performance, and yes, I am quite vain. Never denied that. Enjoy your anger :)

2f6ef8ed84e943285c1386254d3c66ea

(195)

on October 15, 2012
at 09:45 PM

It goes with getting ripped, your going to feel a little shitty at times.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on September 26, 2012
at 08:59 PM

Thats basically what I'm doing. Thanks.

0d7be15fd1a76c7a713b0e2e75381e75

(307)

on September 26, 2012
at 06:59 PM

I guess I disagree that you must "feel low on energy at times." And even if that is the case, for me it wouldn't be worth the sacrifice. Again I think everyone needs to experiment for themselves. When you are trying to get down to the very low BF %'s, it's going to be hard because your body doesn't want to be at such low #'s. Intermittent fasting is a good way to work achieve this, as opposed to straight up calorie restriction, which will generally backfire in one way or another. Carb cycling (normal carbs PWO, few on rest days) + intermittent fasting would be a good place to start IMO.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on September 26, 2012
at 10:46 AM

I wo 3x per week. That means deadlifts, pullups, dips. I rock climb once per weekend also. During summer-fall season (now) I mountaineer/mountain hike A LOT so I cut out the leg work; save that for winter. Yeah definitely eat the correct food....fatty beef and lamb, lean beef, sweet potatoes. You think I should try a tad of carb on rest days?

Medium avatar

(2417)

on September 26, 2012
at 10:40 AM

Well, one must go into a deficit (hence feel low on energy at times) to burn fat, right. When I got enough energy, fat stores stayed put. My macros are 2000/1400cal wo/r, very low fat wo days, no carb high animal fat rest days. Why not zero carb on rest days? Seemed logical to maintain fat burning/keto-adaptationI absolutely get plenty of sat fat. Protein is same every day, 125g animal protein, @2g/kilo body mass. I've tried higher, and it doesn't feel good, gluconogenesis ramps up, and it doesnt help me lose more fat OR gain more muscle.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on September 26, 2012
at 08:04 AM

Fair enough too. Thanks. But cutting fat always results in temporary strength loss and makes you feel hungry. Par for the course in a deprived enough state sufficient to drive your body to burn fat past it's previous set point.

Ba1c998b18470309687f07606767668a

(161)

on September 23, 2012
at 12:40 PM

Fair enough. Thanks for a candid response. I guess I was concerned for your health going by a couple of bits in your post 'I felt REALLY hungry and wiped out', and 'Workouts began to suffer'. I don't think it's unreasonable to prompt people to think about their health vs. life goals, even when it's OT.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on September 23, 2012
at 09:30 AM

I love it when someone comes on here to lecture me about my motivations. Can we say off topic? MANY, following leangains and other protocols, are similarly "unhealthily obsessed" with the same goal as mine. For the record those handles are really thin these days. I'm nearly there. As for health, never felt better. As for reasons; I'm a rock climber. Strength to weight ratio is paramount. Fat is dead weight. And it's ugly. There, I said it!

9d741bcbe702044635f2ce3078043054

(1435)

on September 18, 2012
at 05:35 PM

@foreveryoung - the recommendation to work core sounds frankly like broscience to me. Can you provide some evidence that a) circulation in the core actually increases because of a core workout (as opposed to any other workout) and b) that the increased circulation has any role in increasing fat consumption from those areas?

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on September 06, 2012
at 07:58 PM

@ animaleater- Then try some core work directly before your kettle bell swing/snatch sessions. I just found that i can make a 1% difference in bodyfat simply by adding in 10 minutes of core work directly before HIIT, so I thought it might be able to benefit others as well. I was talking about fat content when I was saying to switch over form beef to chicken/fish, but since the beef you are eating is already very lean, it probably won't do much.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on September 05, 2012
at 10:37 PM

Yeah I've read that article. Martin inspired my end-of-fasting-period LISS walks fueled by fat burning green tea, and coffe fueled fasted weight training. Yohimbine I've not dared to try however, as it's known to induce anxiety; a problem I sufferered from greatly before paleo diet and sleep pattern changes. I'm prone to it due to how I'm wired and stress environment growing up that left my fight-or-flight switch stuck in the on position. Taking that herb is asking for trouble.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on September 05, 2012
at 10:31 PM

Also, I dont do HIIT per se. I weight train and hit some intense kettlebell swing/snatch sessions, and a bit of floor kettlebell midsection work. I hike thousands of vertical meters in the mountains with a pack for 8hrs straight per day at 50-70% max heart rate every weekend now during the season; I get enough cardio.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on September 05, 2012
at 10:26 PM

Foreveryoung, what do you expect to gain by switching to chicken or fish? I'm assuming you mean on training days when fat should be kept low, when I usually have very lean beef. Are you suggesting that I cut fat further on training days, accomplishing this by changing to ever leaner protein sources? I really like the nutrition and minerals in beef. On rest days (higher fat) I use mutton; on those days I don't need to eat any leaner than highly trimmed mutton as that's already backfired as my post details.

E6c14efded576a0bea38a2fe2beced6a

(689)

on September 05, 2012
at 03:40 PM

You should really read the rest of the article.

B124653b19ee9dd438710a38954ed4a3

(1634)

on September 05, 2012
at 02:13 PM

forveryoung - what does that mean? How are they any different. Or should he translate that as: reduce your fat further?

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on September 05, 2012
at 02:12 PM

Also, do 10 minutes of concentrated and direct core workout immediately prior to HIIT. This strategy works and I am guessing it is because it allows for better catecholamine circulation to those "stubborn areas" around your midsection.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on September 05, 2012
at 02:05 PM

Have you tried switching your proteins over to chicken breasts and fish? You might be surprised.

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11 Answers

4
A6cfad7aab069e14fcfc7243ff1da3c2

on December 04, 2012
at 03:43 AM

Just an update. What worked was simply cycling my macros a little differently. -35% TDEE on non workout days and +10% on workout days. Carbs stay low on non workout days (75 grams versus 500 grams) and fat stays low on workout days (74 grams versus 100 on rest days for my TDEE). I have been doing this for about four weeks and my weight has been stable but caliper measurements in the stubbon areas have been improving (the other areas are already very lean). Hope this helps someone.

As for the guy who thinks it is somehow unholy to speak of getting rid of love handles you are welcome to keep as much lard as you want on your own body. If I'm supposed to believe that at 40+ being stronger, leaner, having better cardio capacity and greater insulin sensitity than my 196 pound self is bad because you say so please quantify how low handles increase anyone's quality of life.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 04, 2012
at 05:48 AM

Matt,???thanks for the support. I just commented below that guy's slur calling me a human pile of shit. Some people are amazing. As for your details, what are your stats? BW, training calories and grams of P/F/C, rest calories and grams of P/F/C????Im below TDEE both days. Training/Rest 1800/1200cal, 2.5g protein\kg LBM all days, 25/60-70g fat, 230/0 carbs. Train 11am, Eat 12 and 7pm. experimenting with taking in all carbs at nite (CBL style) on training days, and just protein with a bit of fish oil post workout. you are getting alot more carbs eh?

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 04, 2012
at 05:49 AM

I am 64kg BW now.

4
Ba1c998b18470309687f07606767668a

(161)

on September 18, 2012
at 09:49 AM

This sounds like an unhealthy obsession with changing an aspect of your body for no good health related reason, and going so far as to cause physical harm and reduce fitness.

If your body wants to keep your love handles, there's some reason for that, why go to such extreme and unhealthy lengths for no reason?

Medium avatar

(2417)

on September 26, 2012
at 08:04 AM

Fair enough too. Thanks. But cutting fat always results in temporary strength loss and makes you feel hungry. Par for the course in a deprived enough state sufficient to drive your body to burn fat past it's previous set point.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on September 23, 2012
at 09:30 AM

I love it when someone comes on here to lecture me about my motivations. Can we say off topic? MANY, following leangains and other protocols, are similarly "unhealthily obsessed" with the same goal as mine. For the record those handles are really thin these days. I'm nearly there. As for health, never felt better. As for reasons; I'm a rock climber. Strength to weight ratio is paramount. Fat is dead weight. And it's ugly. There, I said it!

Ba1c998b18470309687f07606767668a

(161)

on September 23, 2012
at 12:40 PM

Fair enough. Thanks for a candid response. I guess I was concerned for your health going by a couple of bits in your post 'I felt REALLY hungry and wiped out', and 'Workouts began to suffer'. I don't think it's unreasonable to prompt people to think about their health vs. life goals, even when it's OT.

2
F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on October 15, 2012
at 08:50 PM

Has anyone mentioned sleep yet? How's that going?

Medium avatar

(2417)

on October 16, 2012
at 12:19 PM

Pretty good. Fall asleep 9-10pm, wake up refreshed with no alarm at 5am every day, never feel sleepy during the day.

1
D8612a7c536e74f9855b70d8e97919b5

(1042)

on September 05, 2012
at 01:28 PM

Interesting post. What about the suggestions on Martin's post about stubborn fat?: http://www.leangains.com/2010/06/intermittent-fasting-and-stubborn-body.html

It seems like you would fall into the category that Marting recommends these tweaks for (very lean, but still holding some fat in "problem areas").

He mentions yohimbine supplementation, and a bunch of other things you're probably already doing: caffeine (coffee), fasted weight training, LISS cardio in the fasted state, etc.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on September 05, 2012
at 10:37 PM

Yeah I've read that article. Martin inspired my end-of-fasting-period LISS walks fueled by fat burning green tea, and coffe fueled fasted weight training. Yohimbine I've not dared to try however, as it's known to induce anxiety; a problem I sufferered from greatly before paleo diet and sleep pattern changes. I'm prone to it due to how I'm wired and stress environment growing up that left my fight-or-flight switch stuck in the on position. Taking that herb is asking for trouble.

0
Medium avatar

on August 09, 2015
at 02:04 AM

How did it turn out for you? The situation you describe is EXTREMELY similar to mine. I keep hovering between 11-13% bodyfat month after month. When I fine tune everything I get as low as 11% and maybe even leaner, but I can only sustain it for like a week and I get back up to what seems to be 12-13% in no time and start feeling shitty, then get shit sorted out and repeat the cycle all over again. I'm spinning my wheels and only have a few more strategies to try before I give up and hire a coach.

What did you do?

0
510bdda8988ed0d4b0ec0b738b4edb73

(20888)

on January 31, 2013
at 10:44 PM

First, you can't judge yourself by a number: this is the weight on the scale or a body fat percentage doesn't map to how good of a person you are, so you should quit that kind of measurement. You should go by how you feel and how you perform. If you feel good and can do what you want to do, then you're good.

Second, this is why I always do my rants when people talk about restricting calories (even paleo calories) and upping their workouts (even HIIT, paleo-aproved working out). You can't starve yourself or workout enough to ever burn the fat you want to. You need to eat enough food to build muscle which will then burn your fat if your hormones are such that you can mobilize fat.

So it's simple: eat real food, don't count, don't measure, do something active that's fun, but don't go crazy with it.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on February 02, 2013
at 04:42 AM

I really hate this iPhone sometimes: "I'm SIMPLY not satisfied with..."

Cfc7dee889a66db9cd76c4f348109294

(1652)

on February 03, 2013
at 04:39 PM

I thought it would be better if you were smiley.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on February 02, 2013
at 04:39 AM

Point taken and sentiment appreciated. First, I'm good at my sport. Second, I like me (tho I have likes and dislikes). But, being ripped and lean is what I like. Right or wrong, I'm smiley not satisfied to just be me and eat well.

0
3b031bce7c181c10452ee202e2b54dc6

on January 31, 2013
at 10:26 PM

Have you read Lyle's articles about a diet break? Sounds like what you need to do:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/the-full-diet-break.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/of-whooshes-and-squishy-fat.html

You're probably overtraining and undereating. just switch it up for a week or two then go back to it.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on February 02, 2013
at 04:47 AM

Interesting reads. Actually, in December my mind-body seriously revolted and would have no more dieting no matter what I determined to do each day. Anyway, winter is off season and I usually use it as an excuse to heavy lift, walk slowly, and gain a bit of muscle. Fat comes with that for me, but so be it. The body needs cycles. I'm quite a bit heavier right now, and up to 10-12%BF, but more muscle too. Ill hit the diet again in the spring.

0
560732ff3581db458567b13ef5425617

(0)

on January 31, 2013
at 09:53 PM

I have had this exact same experience and have concluded that the key must be to keep the caloric deficit small enough at all times so that the body is able to make up for it from the stubborn fat you have left without resorting to muscle catabolism. This means not only that overall calories must not be too low, but also that you should never extend the fast too long and that the difference in calories between the high and low periods should not be too great. My personal experience was that I was extending the fast to approximately ~22 hours, then working out fasted and eating a tremendous PWO meal of sweet potatoes. No matter how much I increased calories, the fast was simply too long, and so while I was able to get down to an extremely lean ~6%-7% b/f, I lost a great deal of muscle and just couldn't get rid of that last bit of fat on my glutes. Martin has said that one of the keys to his eventual success was keeping the deficit small and "easing into maintenance." I believe that this is why.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on February 02, 2013
at 04:35 AM

Then again, over in Andy's rippedbody.jp site, a guy who weights alot more than me did his cut cycle with 2000/1400 and he is quite muscular.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on February 02, 2013
at 04:22 AM

Very interesting. My cals say my TDEE is 2200+, so I was thinking of trying training/rest,@+20%/-20%,2400/1600, low fat high carb/higher fat zero carb, protein 2.5g/kg LBM. What got me leanest, and most muscle loss, was 2000/12-1400, 2.0g protein /lbs LBM. I always keep the fast 16-17hrs except once a week I do a single 5pm feeding. Thing is, when I tried to keep my cal avg 1600 nothing happened at all. Had to go lower. When I eat enough, fat stays. I never gain much muscle on a bulk, mostly fat. Think my estrogen is high(aromatization)and DHT is low...

Medium avatar

(2417)

on February 02, 2013
at 04:24 AM

As I've got little body hair, a child's hairline, I look 10 years younger than I am, and my fat deposits seem around my love handles and chest.

0
A6cfad7aab069e14fcfc7243ff1da3c2

on October 15, 2012
at 07:53 PM

I'm dealing with this right not. By the 3 site caliper test I am at about 6% bodyfat but I don't believe the numbers anymore and have started measuring just what is left of my pooch (nice problem to have). My abs are not popping yet though I have a clear four-pack. I have also upped the water intake to around 1.5 gallons per day so make sure I am not giving my body a reason to hold extra water. I have been doing my usual leangains workout and instead of taking BCAAs after the workout, taking yohimbe and going trying to just move around (taking walks and such). It seems to be working but I am still not disgustingly lean. My plan is to lower the grams of carbs to around 80 per day for this week and up the fat to make up for the lost calories. Seems counterintuitive but so is IF. I will also up the protein a tab though I already head 1.5 grams per pound of bodyweight and that is probably enough. So far after a month of stagnation the calipers are moving in the correct direction again . . no lost strength so far (bp 335@163 pounds so already strong enough for most people).

Medium avatar

(2417)

on October 16, 2012
at 09:43 PM

I think you should lower your protein, keep WO day carbs moderate (I eat zero carb rest days), keep fat in balance with protein (I eat really low fat WO days), and just lower your total cal each week by 100.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on October 16, 2012
at 09:40 PM

I drink more water at days end to replenish as grok woulda done from the river at camp. On those days, I eat 1-2000cal more than my city life leangains days. And no IF. Breakfast of pemmican at 5am, hike and climb all day eating as I go from my mixture of lean beef jerky, a ton of rice/coconut oil/glucose/raisins/seaweed. Dinner is more rice and beef. Protein/fat morning, protein/fat/carb during the hikes, protein/carb load at night. Also, I always eat 2g protein/kg bodyweight, home or hikes, that's it. I think more on a cut cycle just goes to gluconogenesis.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on October 16, 2012
at 09:33 PM

IMO that much water is simply flushing out your minerals. Ive been experimenting with drinking LESS water, and it's working. I climbed nearly 2000m vertical a day for five days last weekend, drinking only 1-2liters during the days, and got LESS dehydrated than when unused to fret over water and drink much more. The body adapts. Btw, those hikes have been my secret weapon. 3-5day, all day, 8hr backpacking journeys in the high mountains; every time I get home I'm leaner by a step.

0
0d7be15fd1a76c7a713b0e2e75381e75

(307)

on September 18, 2012
at 05:45 AM

Sounds like you might just have to experiment to find the answer. Here are some suggestions that I would probably try if I was in this situation.

-Continue IF, but make sure you get enough calories during the eating window... feeling weak probably means you aren't getting enough energy. -You didn't specify your macronutrients, but I assume low carb. If so, you could eat more fat in order combat weakness, etc. You also didn't specify how much protein, but more protein isn't always better, i.e. if your body is converting it to glucose and storing it as fat. So try high fat, moderate protein, and low (but not zero) carb. -You also didn't specify how often you work out. I wouldn't work out more than 3x's a week, lifting heavy and giving it your all, then resting the next day.

I don't know, but I just kind of got the feeling that you weren't eating enough of the correct food (i.e. saturated fat), and probably eating too much protein, like a lot of lifters tend to do. Agreed on not taking shortcuts like herbal fat loss supps -- hope you stick to that. When you get down to such a low body fat percentage it's going to be slow times for getting the last bit off. Body recomp takes time, but it ain't gonna happen if you don't eat enough and fuel yourself.

I hope that this helps. I think the main point is be patient, make tweaks and experiment, but I think you gotta give it time and mess around with your macros a bit. For example, the hyperlipid guy (Peter, I think...but irrelevent) maintains a 12% BF without trying or lifting or IFing. So perhaps mirroring that diet, with some changes and additions to support your weightlifting might suffice.

Good Luck!!

Medium avatar

(2417)

on October 16, 2012
at 12:17 PM

I've come to understand this fat Whirl. It's working though.

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(2417)

on September 26, 2012
at 10:46 AM

I wo 3x per week. That means deadlifts, pullups, dips. I rock climb once per weekend also. During summer-fall season (now) I mountaineer/mountain hike A LOT so I cut out the leg work; save that for winter. Yeah definitely eat the correct food....fatty beef and lamb, lean beef, sweet potatoes. You think I should try a tad of carb on rest days?

Medium avatar

(2417)

on October 16, 2012
at 09:27 PM

Lol this FACT! Love the iPhone autocorrects.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on September 26, 2012
at 10:40 AM

Well, one must go into a deficit (hence feel low on energy at times) to burn fat, right. When I got enough energy, fat stores stayed put. My macros are 2000/1400cal wo/r, very low fat wo days, no carb high animal fat rest days. Why not zero carb on rest days? Seemed logical to maintain fat burning/keto-adaptationI absolutely get plenty of sat fat. Protein is same every day, 125g animal protein, @2g/kilo body mass. I've tried higher, and it doesn't feel good, gluconogenesis ramps up, and it doesnt help me lose more fat OR gain more muscle.

2f6ef8ed84e943285c1386254d3c66ea

(195)

on October 15, 2012
at 09:45 PM

It goes with getting ripped, your going to feel a little shitty at times.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on September 26, 2012
at 08:59 PM

Thats basically what I'm doing. Thanks.

0d7be15fd1a76c7a713b0e2e75381e75

(307)

on September 26, 2012
at 06:59 PM

I guess I disagree that you must "feel low on energy at times." And even if that is the case, for me it wouldn't be worth the sacrifice. Again I think everyone needs to experiment for themselves. When you are trying to get down to the very low BF %'s, it's going to be hard because your body doesn't want to be at such low #'s. Intermittent fasting is a good way to work achieve this, as opposed to straight up calorie restriction, which will generally backfire in one way or another. Carb cycling (normal carbs PWO, few on rest days) + intermittent fasting would be a good place to start IMO.

-5
81181cab058dd652659e4bb2e6f25843

(528)

on October 15, 2012
at 09:52 PM

This whole thread is nonsense. You must have a certain amount of body fat to live. figures for lowest functional body fat % run in the mid single digits 3-6% for men (I think). If you compromise your ability to simply sustain life at lower than those levels how the hell will you scale a rock wall? if its 'dead weight' your looking to loose why don't you get your appendix removed? maybe a kidney or half your liver# damn thing will grow back anyway#? I mean they don't do anything but add dead weight too. Don't patronize me or anyone here by covering your vain obsession with the veil of health or performance enhancement. I also don't give a shit about how many people share your goals, and nobody else should either.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on October 16, 2012
at 12:16 PM

Funny how people get the most angry about someone that reminds them of something deep within themselves that they hate, some loathed insecurity, some envy, etc. Anyway, have you seen any pro rock climbers? Not an ounce of fat on them, healthy as can be. I strive for health, performance, and yes, I am quite vain. Never denied that. Enjoy your anger :)

81181cab058dd652659e4bb2e6f25843

(528)

on October 17, 2012
at 01:32 AM

btw, Freud is the father of modern psych.

81181cab058dd652659e4bb2e6f25843

(528)

on December 04, 2012
at 04:37 PM

More delusion and a tenuous grasp of psychology to boot. It is O.K. to want to lean down for esthetic purposes only, however, the fundamental virtue avowed by the adherents to paleo is for Better health. Knowingly bastardizing this virtue is what makes you a fraud.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 04, 2012
at 04:19 AM

I missed these comments. I'm not sure where this animosity from you towards me is coming from. I simply posted a question/discussion about getting (vainly)lean. Why do you feel it necessary or appropriate to attack my personal character? This prompted my response that you've possibly your own issues you need to deal with. Now, in effect, calling me a low quality human and a pile of shit really shows your true character man. I feel sorry for you. We all have dark and light. Jungs idea was to find, bring into the conscious, and integrate those dark parts that we consciously hate

81181cab058dd652659e4bb2e6f25843

(528)

on October 17, 2012
at 01:25 AM

Hahaha, you openly admit that your a low quality human and that it's obvious that your such a pile of shit. I could talk with you all day sir. Keep reading Jung 'brah' whatever makes you feel special and relevant.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 04, 2012
at 04:22 AM

In others because they mirror what we hate in ourselves. I find in myself both great beauty and ugliness. Try examining your own self. You don't see me coming into your threads questioning your deep motives and calling you names. If seeking vanity through low bodyfat makes me a pile of shit, then nearly half of the good folks on this forum are guilty. And btw, Freud is credited with changing psychology from the archaic to the new direction, but most sources call Jung the father of modern psychology. Feel as you wish.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on October 16, 2012
at 09:25 PM

It's Jung's insight, the father of modern psychology, not mine. Look it up. Yes, I'm narcissistic. You've yet again pointed out the obvious, which I've already openly admitted on my own. You're a genius.

81181cab058dd652659e4bb2e6f25843

(528)

on October 16, 2012
at 01:56 PM

Your insight in not only fundamentally flawed but you appear to be incredibly narcissistic, pathetically unintelligent, and woefully delusional.

81181cab058dd652659e4bb2e6f25843

(528)

on December 07, 2012
at 08:02 PM

I dont claim to adhere to the paleo ideals or fundamentals, and as far as I know Paleo diet (emphasis on the diet part...) has nothing to do with insults at all. Now your backtracking and you claimed to just want to lose 'extra fat' however at the BF% you claim to be at it would be incontrovertably unhealthy to try and strip more fat.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 04, 2012
at 11:21 PM

And calling me a pile of shit on this forum is completely uncalled for and unacceptable, so who is the one BASTARDIZING paleo?

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 04, 2012
at 11:17 PM

Paleo is about boldly casting off norms and intrepidly exploring new ways and ideas, testing them, evaluating them, and moving forward. I do not bodybuild. I rock climb. I love it. I'm good at it. Paleo has made me better at it than I was much younger, thru the strength that comes from health. Paleo has also helpede get lean, and shedding dead weight (fat) has improved my climbing immensely. I don't get sick. Ever. I take a fall and heal amazingly quickly. Paleo. That said, I enjoy the shredded look, like a good suit. As long as it doesn't derail my health, I pursue it.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 04, 2012
at 11:12 PM

I think we have a misunderstanding here on the most important point, as far as this forum is concerned: my goal first and foremost has been HEALH improvement, full stop. I've pursued this uncompromisingly for 18 years. I eat paleo for this purpose, because the health attained from doing so inevitably raises life performance mentally, physically, and emotionally, and I for one like to seize the day as it were. All dietary and training efforts are or that end; performance and improvement through health. All goals must meet those criteria.

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