2

votes

I am Too Thin and I am in Line With Everything and Eating Enough

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created January 15, 2012 at 1:00 AM

I weigh 145 pounds and I am 6'1 and I have been surprisingly eating a little over 120 grams of carbs for about four months now. I get a good amount of exercise with my job for eight hours a day for five days a week but it is not an excessive amount of exercise and it is considered a normal labor job with lifting and other activity. I get over 100 grams of meat protein a day and I get around 100 grams of fat a day. I know that whenever I eat even a little more meat I feel sick: including eggs. I am eating organic red meat and turkey.

All I know is I have an intense craving for carbs, and I feel that I shouldn't eat some but I also feel like what am I doing? I definitely need to eat some more carbs. LOL at the way I sound with that sentence.

I have been feeling pretty weak and having terrifying muscle cramps. I am also having the worst time trying to sleep and when I actually fall asleep it is has been like clockwork I wake up four hours later with horrible leg cramps. And when I went to the doctor I didn't have any inflammation markers or anything wrong: including no worms in my stomach eating the food for me LOL I asked about that as well. And of course the doctor recommended me to eat more carbohydrates lol at doctors. So I decided to eat some more carbs yesterday and I ended up eating about 300 grams to possibly make up for a deficit as an experiment. And after the stomach ache went away, because that was awful LOL, I felt really great. I ate some sweet potatoes and squash and my muscle cramps have very largely subsided and I didn't feel like I had the flu anymore.

So my question is: what is a good decision for this situation? I am too thin and this is direct evidence that something is wrong; whether it is from my diet or not more food can help a low weight. And I felt better; but there are diseases and viruses that are designed to make a person feel good and euphoric because it is trying to distract the host LOL and I think carbs can work the same way. Should I eat more carbs? And isn't it less work for our body to get glycogen through less processing with ingesting glucose than from making glucose from fat and protein; which expends a good amount of resource and creates bi-product and waste product? Thank you for anyone who has any advice or who has tried to help.

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 19, 2012
at 04:27 AM

These data suggest that fructose regulates flux into liver glycogen not only at glucokinase but also possibly at the level of glycogen synthase." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11375325

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 19, 2012
at 04:26 AM

Okay, "we found that the direct pathway accounted for ~60% of hepatic glycogen synthesis in the control study, which is similar to our previous results in humans and that the contribution of the direct pathway of liver glycogen synthesis was unchanged by the infusion of fructose.... fructose caused a 2.5-fold increase in flux through glycogen synthase without any changes in the percent contribution of flux through the direct or indirect pathways of glycogen synthesis.....

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 19, 2012
at 03:41 AM

then liver glycogen may not be refilled efficiently. And on top of that, the simple fact that fructose increases gluconeogenesis (many studies show that) supports what I've been saying

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 19, 2012
at 03:37 AM

Cliff I'm not sure what you're trying to show with that study? Yes, glucose will not refill liver glycogen as fast as fructose. Glucose goes around to refill the muscles glycogen, while fructose is mainly handled by the liver. I've NEVER said that gluconeogenesis is the ONLY way that liver glycogen gets refilled, I just wanted to point out that it's not as simple as eat carbs and glycogen gets automatically refilled (directly). If certain gluconeogenic enzymes like PEPCK, G6Pase, or fructose-1,6-bisphosphatase are not functioning properly (as in leptin resistance or many other etiologies),

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 19, 2012
at 03:35 AM

Cliff I'm not sure what you're trying to show with that study? Yes, glucose will not refill liver glycogen as fast as fructose. Glucose goes around to refill the muscles glycogen, while fructose is mainly handled by the liver. I've NEVER said that gluconeogenesis is the ONLY way that liver glycogen gets refilled, I just wanted to point out that it's not as simple as eat carbs and glycogen gets automatically refilled (directly). If certain gluconeogenic enzymes like PEPCK, G-6-P, or fructose-6-P are not functioning properly (as in leptin resistance or many other etiologies), then

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 19, 2012
at 01:41 AM

Well Cliff that is good to know. How can we reconcile all of these studies? I get that the sense that you've been trying to prove me wrong, but the studies I've shown are valid and so we need to find out what's going on. My guess, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that in a depleted state, fructose will refill liver glyc faster. But during normal metabolism, a PORTION of it gets refilled via the indirect pathway.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 18, 2012
at 02:14 PM

"Liver glycogen concentration increased at faster rates with FRU (24 ± 2 mmol·L(-1)·h(-1), P < 0.001) and with GAL (28 ± 3 mmol·L(-1)·h(-1), P < 0.001) than with GLU (13 ± 2 mmol·L(-1)·h(-1)). Liver volumes increased (P < 0.001) with FRU (9% ± 2%) and with GAL (10% ± 2%) but not with GLU (2% ± 1%, NS)." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21407126

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 17, 2012
at 02:47 PM

These studies don't test for variables though. When your hypothyroid(like after a fast) your body has an extremely hard time storing liver glycogen, this is one of the key points that ray peat teaches. This is why he recommends fructose which is extremely powerful stimulator of liver glycogen synthesis. You can't make conclusions from studies like these, at least I can't. I know I don't IV glucose or even eat pure glucose ever, no one on this site probably does either.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on January 17, 2012
at 11:18 AM

Matt, I take it you have always been underweight? You strike me as somebody that is actually reluctant to eat.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on January 17, 2012
at 11:14 AM

I can tell you now that whatever it is you hope to achieve by taking supplememnts instead of eating real food, it aint going to happen. Vitamin supplements can not take the place of calories. I am 51. I have not used dairy for 12 or more years I think? I hated milk when I was a kid but would have it on cereal. I only started drinking it whe I was 18 because people convinced me that I should be drinking it. It turned out that I was allergic to it. Anyway, all I'm saying is you don't need to find a replacement for anything in dairy because humans don't actually need dairy.

Aa1f07e23a47aed0d07b712645e0d213

(313)

on January 17, 2012
at 01:02 AM

And I already eat 100 grams of animal protein: eating another twenty-five grams is too much and makes my stomach hurt significantly. I don't bloat from a moderate amount of carbs and all carbs do is supply a necessary nutrient: glycogen and glycogen is not bad for the body. Also: more fatty meat means more cooked meat and there is nothing wrong with vegetable oil's, maybe I'm wrong LOL, but the right one's of course like Olive Oil and Red Palm. But I see where you are coming from Warren.

Aa1f07e23a47aed0d07b712645e0d213

(313)

on January 17, 2012
at 01:00 AM

I can't get these vitamins and minerals in full from food sources: I have to buy some Red Palm oil because I just found out about it but I am not sure if it contains all of the forms of Vitamin E and the supplements I take are definitely not bad and would contain less biproduct or metals than most meat or any other foods: and many supplements are true for that and they don't have to be expensive. Calcium because I am under 100% and D3 is because I don't drink dairy and don't get much D3 Vitamin D.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 16, 2012
at 04:25 PM

Did you have a paper in mind?

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 16, 2012
at 03:58 PM

Human studies. Now they do use glucose and not fructose, but still useful... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6799330 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/509374 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2669511

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 16, 2012
at 03:52 PM

I'll throw a random thought out here regarding that Nilsson study... I'd be curious to know the health of the subjects. Hepatic insulin resistance could impair glucose uptake, and leptin resistance (via lower PEPCK) could impair peoples ability for gluconeogenesis

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 16, 2012
at 03:52 PM

I'll throw two brainstormed ideas out here regarding that Nilsson study, I'd be curious to know the health of the subjects. Hepatic insulin resistance could impair glucose uptake, and leptin resistance (via lower PEPCK) could impair peoples ability for gluconeogenesis.

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 16, 2012
at 03:38 PM

And Cliff, if you're really interested to know what those reviews say you could have just asked me and I would have been happy to email them to you so you can make your own conclusions.

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 16, 2012
at 03:37 PM

Look I have no agenda to promote glyconeogenesis. I can't explain that study, especially not with the abstract only which is what I have. That is one study compared with multiple studies (in different animals) that are included in the reviews cited. I was curious about glycogen and so I read as many papers as I could find and this is what I've found. Liver glycogen IS refilled somewhat by dietary carbs but there is absolutely a significant portion from gluconeogenesis. I don't know why I have to defend all of this data.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 16, 2012
at 02:13 PM

You never answered any of the questions jeff. If there is a large body of work supporting this idea then provide some papers using mixed meals, fructose etc. So far we have one actual study that gives IV [1-14C]glucose to rats. How do you explain this study http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/00365517309084355

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on January 16, 2012
at 10:23 AM

If you were eating enough fat and protein you would not be underweight. Stop drinking so much water unless you live somewhere very hot. Drink when thirsty. Drinking water all day is what anorexics do to stop themseves feeling hungry. You seem to be concentrating on the finer details like vitamins, minerals and the minimum amounts of fat and protein you can get away with when you should be concentrating on shovelling food down your neck.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on January 16, 2012
at 10:19 AM

If you were eating enough fat and protein you would not be underweight

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on January 16, 2012
at 10:18 AM

If I could I would only eat organic and wild food but we really don't have a lot to choose from where I live. Your main objective needs to be eating enough food even if it isnt organic. If you choose to limit the amount of protein and fat you are eating, you will limit your progress. Definitely increase the fat but increase it by eating more fatty meat. Eat everything that you have been eating but eat bigger portions. Why are you taking those supplements?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on January 16, 2012
at 10:16 AM

If I could I would only eat organic and wild food but we really don't have a lot to choose from. Your main objective needs to be eating enough food even if it isnt organic. If you choose to limit the amount of protein and fat you are eating, you will limit your progress. There really is no need to make hard work of this. Definitely increase the fat but increase it by eating more fatty meat. Eat everything that you have been eating but eat bigger portions. Why are you taking those supplements?

Aa1f07e23a47aed0d07b712645e0d213

(313)

on January 16, 2012
at 04:30 AM

No I eat kale, chard, squash, organic red meat, and that is mainly it LOL. The only supplements I take are for Vitamin D3, calcium, and Vitamin E and the Vitamin E gives all forms and from food sources as it is from New Chapter. I hate taking supplements and so I am looking into bone broth and red palm oil which I just found out about but I want to make sure to get all forms of vitamin E and I only eat organic so it is hard to buy the food.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on January 16, 2012
at 12:34 AM

I can only go by the informtion you provided. You said "intense craving for carbs" so that is what I addressed. You are craving carbs because you don't eat enough. There doesn't need to be any other reason for it. Think yourself lucky that you are not an ovrweight person that craves carbs while eating too much. What kind of foods do you tend to eat? Are you using suppements or is it mostly whole foods like meat and veg?

Aa1f07e23a47aed0d07b712645e0d213

(313)

on January 16, 2012
at 12:16 AM

It is more than cravings: I have a deficiency as my weight is extremely low so the cravings are justified. I believe more protein isn't right because I am consuming more than enough I believe, but I could be wrong LOL. I am going to try to increase fat and carb just so my body can build more muscle and not consume itself: not to increase fat pounds from excess carbs and fat. I understand what you are saying though.

Aa1f07e23a47aed0d07b712645e0d213

(313)

on January 15, 2012
at 10:49 PM

I would definitely eat organs if I could afford them you are right Danny. Matthew: I do not limit my foods sources too much I only eliminate sources that I do not need I am acquiring all of my vitamins and minerals more than sufficiently and I am underweight and food sources are not going to be the solution but more carbs, protein, or fat will. But I understand what you are saying Matthew definitely.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on January 15, 2012
at 10:20 PM

Matt - It sounds like you could benefit from expanding your food choices. Overly limiting your diet is detrimental if it prevents you eating enough energy to sustain your body.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 15, 2012
at 09:51 PM

Also, I read something recently on the inherent conflict between brain and body. We are indeed wired to consume endlessly when energy-dense foods are available, but there are times when our bodies know better and we lose appetite and are able to conserve energy well. I think we are above all else best at adapting to changing circumstances, that is when it is at its most efficient.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 15, 2012
at 09:47 PM

I think there was a question specifically about alternative fat sources earlier today. With the limitations you've decided on though, unless you can get hold of raw animals it sounds like you might have to rely on carbs and eat more plants. I understand why you would be particular about food, so you would need to decide which compromise would serve you best.

Aa1f07e23a47aed0d07b712645e0d213

(313)

on January 15, 2012
at 08:49 PM

I appreciate the responses and these are good suggestions. I get a significant amount of magnesium, potassium, salt, folate, B12, etc. in my diet definitely over the hundred percent daily value. And the main problem here is I seem to be underweight, and these minerals and sodium would probably not help me gain muscle weight. I already consume enough protein from meat and protein in general as well. I drink over twenty cups of water a day as well, which is already too high LOL.

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 15, 2012
at 08:30 PM

And yeah the liver definitely seems to use other metabolites, especially lactate

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 15, 2012
at 08:29 PM

Stephan's paper comes up in a google search for me but not google scholar. Maybe cos the abstract is published online ahead of print? When it comes available in google scholar I'll probably be able to request it through my school library. Strangely I can't access that Nilsson paper either. Can you email it to me?

Medium avatar

(39831)

on January 15, 2012
at 07:07 PM

Btw, I don't suppose you have access to Stephan's new paper: http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/early/2012/01/06/jc.2011-2525.abstract?sid=103acd3e-dda5-40ae-ac69-eb2393e9eab6 ?

Medium avatar

(39831)

on January 15, 2012
at 06:58 PM

Thanks, that would be great. From what I'm seeing, I think you may be right about the liver with regard to portal absorption, though I don't know how to account for things like this: http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/00365517309084355 I suppose the liver may actually be using secondary metabolites for glycogen synthesis.

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 15, 2012
at 06:31 PM

I can email you, I have full pdfs of all of these and quite a few others

Medium avatar

(39831)

on January 15, 2012
at 06:29 PM

Now that I think of it, I may have been reading about glycogenesis in muscle. It would make sense that the liver would manufacture its own glycogen from any and all substrates and let the muscles soak up dietary glucose.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on January 15, 2012
at 06:25 PM

Let me see if I can get the full version of a review of some type. I found one months ago that traced glucose and fructose through glycogenesis and the glucose was incorporated, but the fructose was not, though the latter increased glycogenesis as a result of the donation of metabolites or some other upregulation.

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 15, 2012
at 06:18 PM

Travis I agree that it doesn't seem to make sense, but there is a fairly large body of work supporting the idea. Have I misinterpreted the above studies? Do they all have some design flaw? Perhaps there is in fact some good reason for the indirect pathway that may or may not have been elucidated in the scientific literature.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on January 15, 2012
at 06:08 PM

Any implication that the body would oxidize glucose and inefficiently utilize other substrates for glycogenesis is patently ridiculous. Evolution doesn't favor inefficiency.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on January 15, 2012
at 06:01 PM

Good advice; this fellow just needs to eat more.

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 15, 2012
at 04:54 PM

And I'm sorry you don't have full access to some studies but that's not a reason not to cite them if I have the full paper

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 15, 2012
at 04:52 PM

Those are 3 different studies, and many people find reviews to be helpful because they look at an overview of the available evidence to make a conclusion.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 15, 2012
at 04:22 PM

I downvote you because I disagree with your conclusions and I see you parading this abstract study(which has no real life implications) around a lot

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 15, 2012
at 04:20 PM

I downvote you because I disagree with your conclusions and I see you parading this dumb study around a lot

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 15, 2012
at 04:19 PM

The first study gives an IV of [1-14C]glucose to fasted rats, how does this prove what happens when humans eat normal food? The second study we only have access to the table of contents. The last one seems to be some sort of review? Where does fructose come into play? I thought it only filled up the liver? What happens when you eat fructose? What happens when you eat a normal mixed meal? We don't know because you base your conclusion on one rat study.

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 15, 2012
at 03:43 PM

Cliff, I only picked one. Why do you love downvoting so much? See my edited answer with more references.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 15, 2012
at 03:33 PM

I didn't mean just eating some carbs, but for eating a lot we don't have a proper control group do we? The health of the individual took a hit with the agricultural revolution. Are we sure that all that would not have happened had they only cultivated potatoes rather than wheat? I'd be interested to see that evidence.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 15, 2012
at 03:17 PM

what does the fish oil do?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 15, 2012
at 03:17 PM

Its very easy to misinterpret studies and come to very wrong conclusions, not saying your wrong just saying this one study doesn't really tell us much. We need more studies with more controls.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 15, 2012
at 03:16 PM

One study that we only have the abstract too isn't conclusive evidence that "a substantial portion of liver glycogen is refilled via gluconeogenesis" Maybe this happens because these people don't eat enough carbs? Your body uses a lot of glycogen via the liver, a lot more than people realize so unless your eating a substantial amount of sugars there is a good chance you are gonna have chronically low liver glycogen which leads to glucenegensis.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 15, 2012
at 03:13 PM

Plenty of information to be sure you can eat carbs long term without health risks

B9cc28905ec54389c47cde031d709703

on January 15, 2012
at 03:07 PM

3 things to try, either separately or together, extra salt, supplemental magnesium, and niacin.

77ef7eaba743037c022c7fd28d5f99e1

(380)

on January 15, 2012
at 03:28 AM

How's your water intake? Cramps often seem to come about from dehydration. Electrolyte imbalance as well. Taking magnesium could help with cramping. Electrolytes seem even more likely here since you mentioned the leg cramps subsided after eating sweet potatoes and squash - two vegetables that have a good amount of potassium.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 15, 2012
at 01:30 AM

Probably should have just edited my original post, but I would also add in some resistance training...Your job sounds like a lot of low level movement which is great in its own way, but not the same.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 15, 2012
at 01:26 AM

Could add fat via kerry gold butter, coconut oil, cream, and fattier beef cuts. The tator thing is self explanatory...and its not a tator without about a half pound of butter on it anyhow!

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9 Answers

6
0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on January 15, 2012
at 04:25 PM

Calories matter no matter what anyone says.

If you add you the grams of carbs, fat and protein you provide you are only eating about 1800 calories a day.

1800 calories a day is unlikely to be enough for a lean 6'1 guy with an active job.

Whether you are eating enough glucose or making enough from protein is irrelevant if you are not getting enough overall energy.

I am about the same height as you and weight 10 pounds more and I am rather on the skinny side :) In your case macronutrients are not important. You probably just need to eat more of whatever you can. However I would not recommend eating any more protein as this will fill you up too much. In your case Carbohydrates are probably the easiest way to eat more.

I would recommend trying to get your calorie intake up to 2500 calories a day and see what effect that has. You may need more but this would be a good start.

If you are someone who naturally finds it hard to eat enough you may need to start counting you calories to make sure you do get enough of them.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on January 15, 2012
at 06:01 PM

Good advice; this fellow just needs to eat more.

3
8e5a53df514e078421eb8c7cf89d3ca5

(466)

on January 15, 2012
at 03:13 AM

Paleo does not mean low carb. Individuals have different nutritional needs. You're craving carbs, and the cramps are probably related to your muscles not getting enough fuel -- listen to your body, and eat more carbs. Yams, sweet potatoes, fruit and berries are your friends.

3
Ed983a42344945b1ff70fd9597a23493

on January 15, 2012
at 01:55 AM

From the info you give, I would say that eating more carbs daily is a fantastic idea...you're a tall active male who is looking to gain weight...try including a variety of tubers with your meals and keep your fats and proteins up...I hope that keeps you feeling better!

2
64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 15, 2012
at 03:02 AM

"And isn't it less work for our body to get glycogen through less processing with ingesting glucose than from making glucose from fat and protein"

Our muscles refill their glycogen from glucose, but a substantial portion of liver glycogen is refilled via gluconeogenesis (sometimes referred to as glyconeogenesis).

So although your reasoning is logical, it's not necessrily the case when it comes to liver glycogen.

edit for Cliff:

http://www.jbc.org/content/259/11/6958.short

The data support the concept that under normal re- feeding conditions the bulk of liver glycogen is formed by an indirect pathway involving the sequence glucose- lactate- glucose-6-P - glycogen, whereas muscle glycogen is formed by the conventional, direct path- way: glucose - glucose-6-P - glycogen.

http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.nu.07.070187.000411

Though not itself used efficiently, glucose promotes the conversion of gluconeogenic substrates into glycogen.... A maximum of 27% of glycogen repletion occurred via the direct pathway, with most of the remainder contributed by compounds such as lactate, alanine, and glycerol

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11544610

In fact, it was further demonstrated that little postprandial glycogen synthesis takes place if gluconeogenesis is inhibited. Glycogen synthesis from gluconeogenic substrates was termed ???glyconeogenesis???.

Gluconeogenic flux not only provides substrates for glycogen synthesis, but also appears to be essential for glycogen synthesis from all substrates including glucose.

Both McGarry and Sugden showed that the postprandial synthesis of glycogen was dramatically decreased in the presence of 3-mercaptopicolinic acid, demonstrating that glycogenesis is highly dependent on its gluconeogenic component.

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 15, 2012
at 06:18 PM

Travis I agree that it doesn't seem to make sense, but there is a fairly large body of work supporting the idea. Have I misinterpreted the above studies? Do they all have some design flaw? Perhaps there is in fact some good reason for the indirect pathway that may or may not have been elucidated in the scientific literature.

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 15, 2012
at 03:43 PM

Cliff, I only picked one. Why do you love downvoting so much? See my edited answer with more references.

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 15, 2012
at 04:52 PM

Those are 3 different studies, and many people find reviews to be helpful because they look at an overview of the available evidence to make a conclusion.

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 15, 2012
at 04:54 PM

And I'm sorry you don't have full access to some studies but that's not a reason not to cite them if I have the full paper

Medium avatar

(39831)

on January 15, 2012
at 06:08 PM

Any implication that the body would oxidize glucose and inefficiently utilize other substrates for glycogenesis is patently ridiculous. Evolution doesn't favor inefficiency.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on January 15, 2012
at 07:07 PM

Btw, I don't suppose you have access to Stephan's new paper: http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/early/2012/01/06/jc.2011-2525.abstract?sid=103acd3e-dda5-40ae-ac69-eb2393e9eab6 ?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 15, 2012
at 03:16 PM

One study that we only have the abstract too isn't conclusive evidence that "a substantial portion of liver glycogen is refilled via gluconeogenesis" Maybe this happens because these people don't eat enough carbs? Your body uses a lot of glycogen via the liver, a lot more than people realize so unless your eating a substantial amount of sugars there is a good chance you are gonna have chronically low liver glycogen which leads to glucenegensis.

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 16, 2012
at 03:37 PM

Look I have no agenda to promote glyconeogenesis. I can't explain that study, especially not with the abstract only which is what I have. That is one study compared with multiple studies (in different animals) that are included in the reviews cited. I was curious about glycogen and so I read as many papers as I could find and this is what I've found. Liver glycogen IS refilled somewhat by dietary carbs but there is absolutely a significant portion from gluconeogenesis. I don't know why I have to defend all of this data.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 16, 2012
at 02:13 PM

You never answered any of the questions jeff. If there is a large body of work supporting this idea then provide some papers using mixed meals, fructose etc. So far we have one actual study that gives IV [1-14C]glucose to rats. How do you explain this study http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/00365517309084355

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 16, 2012
at 03:38 PM

And Cliff, if you're really interested to know what those reviews say you could have just asked me and I would have been happy to email them to you so you can make your own conclusions.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 15, 2012
at 03:17 PM

Its very easy to misinterpret studies and come to very wrong conclusions, not saying your wrong just saying this one study doesn't really tell us much. We need more studies with more controls.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on January 15, 2012
at 06:29 PM

Now that I think of it, I may have been reading about glycogenesis in muscle. It would make sense that the liver would manufacture its own glycogen from any and all substrates and let the muscles soak up dietary glucose.

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 15, 2012
at 08:30 PM

And yeah the liver definitely seems to use other metabolites, especially lactate

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 15, 2012
at 04:20 PM

I downvote you because I disagree with your conclusions and I see you parading this dumb study around a lot

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 16, 2012
at 03:52 PM

I'll throw two brainstormed ideas out here regarding that Nilsson study, I'd be curious to know the health of the subjects. Hepatic insulin resistance could impair glucose uptake, and leptin resistance (via lower PEPCK) could impair peoples ability for gluconeogenesis.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on January 15, 2012
at 06:25 PM

Let me see if I can get the full version of a review of some type. I found one months ago that traced glucose and fructose through glycogenesis and the glucose was incorporated, but the fructose was not, though the latter increased glycogenesis as a result of the donation of metabolites or some other upregulation.

Medium avatar

(39831)

on January 15, 2012
at 06:58 PM

Thanks, that would be great. From what I'm seeing, I think you may be right about the liver with regard to portal absorption, though I don't know how to account for things like this: http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/00365517309084355 I suppose the liver may actually be using secondary metabolites for glycogen synthesis.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 15, 2012
at 04:22 PM

I downvote you because I disagree with your conclusions and I see you parading this abstract study(which has no real life implications) around a lot

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 15, 2012
at 08:29 PM

Stephan's paper comes up in a google search for me but not google scholar. Maybe cos the abstract is published online ahead of print? When it comes available in google scholar I'll probably be able to request it through my school library. Strangely I can't access that Nilsson paper either. Can you email it to me?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 15, 2012
at 04:19 PM

The first study gives an IV of [1-14C]glucose to fasted rats, how does this prove what happens when humans eat normal food? The second study we only have access to the table of contents. The last one seems to be some sort of review? Where does fructose come into play? I thought it only filled up the liver? What happens when you eat fructose? What happens when you eat a normal mixed meal? We don't know because you base your conclusion on one rat study.

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 15, 2012
at 06:31 PM

I can email you, I have full pdfs of all of these and quite a few others

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 16, 2012
at 03:58 PM

Human studies. Now they do use glucose and not fructose, but still useful... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6799330 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/509374 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2669511

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 16, 2012
at 03:52 PM

I'll throw a random thought out here regarding that Nilsson study... I'd be curious to know the health of the subjects. Hepatic insulin resistance could impair glucose uptake, and leptin resistance (via lower PEPCK) could impair peoples ability for gluconeogenesis

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 19, 2012
at 04:26 AM

Okay, "we found that the direct pathway accounted for ~60% of hepatic glycogen synthesis in the control study, which is similar to our previous results in humans and that the contribution of the direct pathway of liver glycogen synthesis was unchanged by the infusion of fructose.... fructose caused a 2.5-fold increase in flux through glycogen synthase without any changes in the percent contribution of flux through the direct or indirect pathways of glycogen synthesis.....

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 17, 2012
at 02:47 PM

These studies don't test for variables though. When your hypothyroid(like after a fast) your body has an extremely hard time storing liver glycogen, this is one of the key points that ray peat teaches. This is why he recommends fructose which is extremely powerful stimulator of liver glycogen synthesis. You can't make conclusions from studies like these, at least I can't. I know I don't IV glucose or even eat pure glucose ever, no one on this site probably does either.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 18, 2012
at 02:14 PM

"Liver glycogen concentration increased at faster rates with FRU (24 ± 2 mmol·L(-1)·h(-1), P < 0.001) and with GAL (28 ± 3 mmol·L(-1)·h(-1), P < 0.001) than with GLU (13 ± 2 mmol·L(-1)·h(-1)). Liver volumes increased (P < 0.001) with FRU (9% ± 2%) and with GAL (10% ± 2%) but not with GLU (2% ± 1%, NS)." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21407126

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 19, 2012
at 03:37 AM

Cliff I'm not sure what you're trying to show with that study? Yes, glucose will not refill liver glycogen as fast as fructose. Glucose goes around to refill the muscles glycogen, while fructose is mainly handled by the liver. I've NEVER said that gluconeogenesis is the ONLY way that liver glycogen gets refilled, I just wanted to point out that it's not as simple as eat carbs and glycogen gets automatically refilled (directly). If certain gluconeogenic enzymes like PEPCK, G6Pase, or fructose-1,6-bisphosphatase are not functioning properly (as in leptin resistance or many other etiologies),

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 19, 2012
at 03:41 AM

then liver glycogen may not be refilled efficiently. And on top of that, the simple fact that fructose increases gluconeogenesis (many studies show that) supports what I've been saying

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 19, 2012
at 01:41 AM

Well Cliff that is good to know. How can we reconcile all of these studies? I get that the sense that you've been trying to prove me wrong, but the studies I've shown are valid and so we need to find out what's going on. My guess, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that in a depleted state, fructose will refill liver glyc faster. But during normal metabolism, a PORTION of it gets refilled via the indirect pathway.

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 19, 2012
at 03:35 AM

Cliff I'm not sure what you're trying to show with that study? Yes, glucose will not refill liver glycogen as fast as fructose. Glucose goes around to refill the muscles glycogen, while fructose is mainly handled by the liver. I've NEVER said that gluconeogenesis is the ONLY way that liver glycogen gets refilled, I just wanted to point out that it's not as simple as eat carbs and glycogen gets automatically refilled (directly). If certain gluconeogenic enzymes like PEPCK, G-6-P, or fructose-6-P are not functioning properly (as in leptin resistance or many other etiologies), then

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on January 19, 2012
at 04:27 AM

These data suggest that fructose regulates flux into liver glycogen not only at glucokinase but also possibly at the level of glycogen synthase." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11375325

2
3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 15, 2012
at 01:22 AM

More food in general. Could get your calories from more fats or more sweet tators. Just eat more would be my advise. I get mine from fat personally, but do what makes you feel good.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 15, 2012
at 01:26 AM

Could add fat via kerry gold butter, coconut oil, cream, and fattier beef cuts. The tator thing is self explanatory...and its not a tator without about a half pound of butter on it anyhow!

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 15, 2012
at 01:30 AM

Probably should have just edited my original post, but I would also add in some resistance training...Your job sounds like a lot of low level movement which is great in its own way, but not the same.

0
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on January 16, 2012
at 12:09 AM

The cravings are simply because you are not getting enough calories. Just try to eat a little more of everything tomorrow and a little more than that the next day and so on. Coconut milk is pretty good for getting calories in fairly easily.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on January 16, 2012
at 10:16 AM

If I could I would only eat organic and wild food but we really don't have a lot to choose from. Your main objective needs to be eating enough food even if it isnt organic. If you choose to limit the amount of protein and fat you are eating, you will limit your progress. There really is no need to make hard work of this. Definitely increase the fat but increase it by eating more fatty meat. Eat everything that you have been eating but eat bigger portions. Why are you taking those supplements?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on January 16, 2012
at 10:18 AM

If I could I would only eat organic and wild food but we really don't have a lot to choose from where I live. Your main objective needs to be eating enough food even if it isnt organic. If you choose to limit the amount of protein and fat you are eating, you will limit your progress. Definitely increase the fat but increase it by eating more fatty meat. Eat everything that you have been eating but eat bigger portions. Why are you taking those supplements?

Aa1f07e23a47aed0d07b712645e0d213

(313)

on January 16, 2012
at 12:16 AM

It is more than cravings: I have a deficiency as my weight is extremely low so the cravings are justified. I believe more protein isn't right because I am consuming more than enough I believe, but I could be wrong LOL. I am going to try to increase fat and carb just so my body can build more muscle and not consume itself: not to increase fat pounds from excess carbs and fat. I understand what you are saying though.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on January 16, 2012
at 12:34 AM

I can only go by the informtion you provided. You said "intense craving for carbs" so that is what I addressed. You are craving carbs because you don't eat enough. There doesn't need to be any other reason for it. Think yourself lucky that you are not an ovrweight person that craves carbs while eating too much. What kind of foods do you tend to eat? Are you using suppements or is it mostly whole foods like meat and veg?

Aa1f07e23a47aed0d07b712645e0d213

(313)

on January 16, 2012
at 04:30 AM

No I eat kale, chard, squash, organic red meat, and that is mainly it LOL. The only supplements I take are for Vitamin D3, calcium, and Vitamin E and the Vitamin E gives all forms and from food sources as it is from New Chapter. I hate taking supplements and so I am looking into bone broth and red palm oil which I just found out about but I want to make sure to get all forms of vitamin E and I only eat organic so it is hard to buy the food.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on January 17, 2012
at 11:14 AM

I can tell you now that whatever it is you hope to achieve by taking supplememnts instead of eating real food, it aint going to happen. Vitamin supplements can not take the place of calories. I am 51. I have not used dairy for 12 or more years I think? I hated milk when I was a kid but would have it on cereal. I only started drinking it whe I was 18 because people convinced me that I should be drinking it. It turned out that I was allergic to it. Anyway, all I'm saying is you don't need to find a replacement for anything in dairy because humans don't actually need dairy.

Aa1f07e23a47aed0d07b712645e0d213

(313)

on January 17, 2012
at 01:00 AM

I can't get these vitamins and minerals in full from food sources: I have to buy some Red Palm oil because I just found out about it but I am not sure if it contains all of the forms of Vitamin E and the supplements I take are definitely not bad and would contain less biproduct or metals than most meat or any other foods: and many supplements are true for that and they don't have to be expensive. Calcium because I am under 100% and D3 is because I don't drink dairy and don't get much D3 Vitamin D.

Aa1f07e23a47aed0d07b712645e0d213

(313)

on January 17, 2012
at 01:02 AM

And I already eat 100 grams of animal protein: eating another twenty-five grams is too much and makes my stomach hurt significantly. I don't bloat from a moderate amount of carbs and all carbs do is supply a necessary nutrient: glycogen and glycogen is not bad for the body. Also: more fatty meat means more cooked meat and there is nothing wrong with vegetable oil's, maybe I'm wrong LOL, but the right one's of course like Olive Oil and Red Palm. But I see where you are coming from Warren.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on January 17, 2012
at 11:18 AM

Matt, I take it you have always been underweight? You strike me as somebody that is actually reluctant to eat.

0
Aa1f07e23a47aed0d07b712645e0d213

(313)

on January 15, 2012
at 09:05 PM

Thank you all for your responses as they have been quite helpful. I agree I do need more calories and I don't have a problem with eating I am just not sure about increasing fat and protein past the levels I am already at. I have well over a hundred percent for magnesium, potassium, folate, B12, etc: the vitamins including Vitamin E. I eat some over a hundred percent for sodium because I lose some when exercising. I get plenty of exercise and I don't think I need to lift more than the amount I do with my job. I am feeling better eating more than one fifty for now but I think it is good to go above one fifty for a few days a week and within 150 for the rest, depending on your activity level, because I didn't even realize I had headaches until I started eating more carbs because now my head feels like it isn't empty or running low on sustenance.

I think it is also efficient for your body to burn through glycogen, even though it is the exact opposite by definition, because if a body can consume and absorb more energy through a shorter period of time that is also efficient if the body intends to do so. And I think my body is trying to tell me this since there isn't an inherent feeling present within myself from a need to have to conserve energy so my body freely expends it at a particular pace which is without extraneous conservation or stretching out stale glycogen. But that is a wild ass guess LOL.

I also only eat foods that don't have aggressive lectins or other natural toxins in them and not just grains and seeds. As far as avacadoes go, here is some information about persin; the natural fungicide in avocados ( http://nutritionfacts.org/videos/are-avocados-bad-for-you/.) ( http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=2004.0.) I am very particular for the foods I eat. I also do not eat fruits because I see no reason to eat toxic fructose for antioxidants as I can eat these with good vegetables. But I do not look down on people for eating fruit because fruit has a lot of benefits in them and it too me a while to make that decision.

So I believe my body is telling me that since there is no inherent position to conserve energy: it is open to consume more which would benefit my body. Or I have been running up a deficit but I feel like it is a bigger deficit that the near thirty grams under the 150 I have been maintaining for the past three months.

I think the problem with carbs is the food are such bad sources for glycogen. There aren't many good sources LOL. There's just squash, sweet potato, and a few other vegetables. So I am starting to get sick of the extra carbs; but it is working.

But the other day I tried just to eat more fat: most of my fat is from olive oil because I do not eat dairy because of the natural hormones in them that are meant for the baby goat or calf and I want my fat from sources that haven't been cooked and if I ate meat with more fat in it then most of my fat is cooked fat. As I tried to eat more olive oil I started to gag; it might be because it is somewhat acidic or the salicylic acid in them. The only other fat I had was was almond butter I saved for an occasion and I detest nuts as well as legumes because of their toxins and trypsin inhibitors. So opened the almond butter as I had a very strong craving for fat as I would never eat some nuts but I ate some and I kept eating more as I discovered a true craving for more fat. I ate almost the whole jar, as it was a regular sized jar from Trader Joe's, and I felt so disappointed and very upset at myself. Then the stomach ache came about ten minutes later and it was so awful LOL. But, twenty minutes later even though I had a stomach ache my mind had this clarity and energy that I haven't felt in a long time. I think I either need more fat in my diet, or just more carbs and fat but less carbs than I thought I needed. Does anyone have any suggestions for fat sources as I will not eat nuts again and I will just eat more olive oil next time until I find a good source. I know coconut oil precipitates proteins in the blood and adds more saturated fat than I want to consume in my diet so I am trying to avoid it.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 15, 2012
at 09:51 PM

Also, I read something recently on the inherent conflict between brain and body. We are indeed wired to consume endlessly when energy-dense foods are available, but there are times when our bodies know better and we lose appetite and are able to conserve energy well. I think we are above all else best at adapting to changing circumstances, that is when it is at its most efficient.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 15, 2012
at 09:47 PM

I think there was a question specifically about alternative fat sources earlier today. With the limitations you've decided on though, unless you can get hold of raw animals it sounds like you might have to rely on carbs and eat more plants. I understand why you would be particular about food, so you would need to decide which compromise would serve you best.

Aa1f07e23a47aed0d07b712645e0d213

(313)

on January 15, 2012
at 10:49 PM

I would definitely eat organs if I could afford them you are right Danny. Matthew: I do not limit my foods sources too much I only eliminate sources that I do not need I am acquiring all of my vitamins and minerals more than sufficiently and I am underweight and food sources are not going to be the solution but more carbs, protein, or fat will. But I understand what you are saying Matthew definitely.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on January 15, 2012
at 10:20 PM

Matt - It sounds like you could benefit from expanding your food choices. Overly limiting your diet is detrimental if it prevents you eating enough energy to sustain your body.

0
Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

on January 15, 2012
at 02:53 PM

I think you may have been stuck in a middle ground where your body wasn't able to get enough energy from carbs or fat. Assuming you previously mostly carbs in the past, then adding back more carbs would be the easiest 'fix' and would give you that same sense of energy you had before. With your activity level there is not likely to be a significant risk to eating more sweet potatoes and squash. However it is possible there will be long-term sub-optimal effects on health in old-age from eating primarily carbs for fuel all your life - there really isn't enough information to be sure in separating all the factors in the epidemiological studies as yet.

There is a better precedent for burning fat, but it takes a bit of practise and people often report that they feel almost a different person. It should be possible to function this way - assuming your ancestors survived the ice age - but some people do find it too difficult a transition and prefer to stick with what they know. Psychologically this is the same as any other drug, the only difference is we have less of an idea of the full health implications so don't know whether it's like tobacco or weed.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 15, 2012
at 03:13 PM

Plenty of information to be sure you can eat carbs long term without health risks

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 15, 2012
at 03:33 PM

I didn't mean just eating some carbs, but for eating a lot we don't have a proper control group do we? The health of the individual took a hit with the agricultural revolution. Are we sure that all that would not have happened had they only cultivated potatoes rather than wheat? I'd be interested to see that evidence.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 16, 2012
at 04:25 PM

Did you have a paper in mind?

0
A5e849a9589e9dd11734856a9f704f59

(18)

on January 15, 2012
at 02:02 AM

Take fish oil, more if you are already taking fish oil. Eat sweet potatoes, bananas, avocados, natural sugar and more good fat. This happened to me when i did "zone-paleo" and hence I don't do zone-paleo anymore. I am strictly paleo

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on January 15, 2012
at 03:17 PM

what does the fish oil do?

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