2

votes

Anyone who eats high fat manage to keep Omega 6 under 4% of calories?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created May 05, 2010 at 3:21 PM

I usually eat about 70% of my cals in fat.

I have found that, at this level, it's impossible to keep your omega 6 intake below 4%.

It seems that every fat out there has omega 6 at above 4%.

Has anyone eating a high-fat diet actually managed this? If so could you post a daily menu.

Also I remember reading on the WAPF site that saturated fat protects against the worst effect of PUFA, anyone got a credible link on that?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 15, 2011
at 06:45 PM

Synergy is important to consider. If I recall correctly the Tarahumara live primarily on corn and beans. In order to get a good chunk of protein from that combo you'd be eating large amounts of carbohydrate. Which works great if you are an endurance specialist. Try that diet when you are sedintary and lifting some weights and I suspect you are going to start having problems with insulin levels. I know I did. I was a 400 lb vegan and am a 200lbs Omnivore (lots o' meat). So Brian what do YOU actually eat?

5db563a5c94e73644be798fd16101cb8

on May 09, 2010
at 02:13 PM

I agree, Brian. Although in some cases, such rigidity may be necessary. For example, if someone has a raging inflammatory condition they may very well want to restrict n-6 PUFA <2% of total calories. But even then, that's just a question of identifying the foods high in n-6 and eliminating them.

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on May 07, 2010
at 06:56 PM

Well I was keeping it simple, just to show that the meal could be very fatty indeed (87% fat) and still low in omega 6. Of course I wouldn't see any problem with washing down 100g of butter with a few hundred ml of double cream, if you were bored.

9a3307dc00af6a76af1aa31cedf9156e

(418)

on May 07, 2010
at 04:28 PM

very well put. I was not trying to criticize the Paleo diet, just point out that there is a point of "penny pinching" with calories and nutrient breakdown that becomes overly restrictive and counterproductive

9a3307dc00af6a76af1aa31cedf9156e

(418)

on May 07, 2010
at 04:25 PM

I have read some of his work, and what you are saying, and Chris above you, goes along with my point: there is something to be said for watching calorie intake and nutrient breakdown, but when the diet becomes so restrictive that it is causing added stress to your body and causing you to not get enough calories for your specific lifestyle, it becomes incredibly counterproductive

090f2b8054d2201cd3a2fbc6bfb6932a

(110)

on May 07, 2010
at 12:20 PM

200g of butter!?

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on May 06, 2010
at 04:30 PM

People restrict their diet for a variety of reasons, but you do not have to be very restrictive to eat a paleolithic style diet. If someone limits foods to the point their diet is not working anymore they are doing something wrong.

9a3307dc00af6a76af1aa31cedf9156e

(418)

on May 06, 2010
at 12:45 AM

the primary complaint I here is that the diet is so restricting that they either cannot intake enough calories to effectively fuel their bodies, or they get bored with the limited amount of "variety" available from the diet. the more I read of questions and posts like the original question in this thread, the more I am questioning the rational of such a strict diet

9a3307dc00af6a76af1aa31cedf9156e

(418)

on May 06, 2010
at 12:45 AM

At this point I am trying different diets and lifestyles combined with different exercise regimes. I love the idea of eating foods that are wholesome and good for you...the idea that everything that enters your mouth can be effectively used by your body as fuel. the problem i see is that many of the strict paleo supporters that I train with consistently do not perform as well as they should.

9a3307dc00af6a76af1aa31cedf9156e

(418)

on May 06, 2010
at 12:44 AM

who the heck is Matt Stone? and why would he create a false account instead of use his real name?

245c53790116339bcc79fb789f6f9c9d

(744)

on May 05, 2010
at 10:19 PM

cavemen didn't have to eat daily fish because they ate way more bugs than I (and I'm assuming you) do. Bugs tend to be higher in omega 3 (which is part of why pastured chickens lay eggs higher in omega 3). I don't have a clean and convenient source of bugs right now, so I eat sardines, anchovies and herring.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 05, 2010
at 07:29 PM

BTW are you Matt Stone? :)

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 05, 2010
at 07:29 PM

This is a paleodiet site, if you are interested in agrarian diets I suggest checking out WAPF. The Tarahumara diet is fairly balanced in omega fats. None of these cultures needed to know what omega-6 was. They weren't constantly bombarded with it like we are and they couldn't go to the store and buy a cornish cross hen (which has a fat content unlike any wild animal) or a bag of cashews.

9a3307dc00af6a76af1aa31cedf9156e

(418)

on May 05, 2010
at 07:11 PM

sorry, posted comment in wrong spot, look above...

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 05, 2010
at 06:03 PM

You don't need to cut them out. Just eat them on weekends or treat them like dessert. I definitely used to eat mainly chicken, almond butter, avocados, pork, and nuts and feel better now that they aren't staples.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 05, 2010
at 06:02 PM

Spartans, like NFL players, got big when young and crashed when old. Fish is probably the single most important food in human evolution, being the major source of iodine, DHA, and zinc. It's no coincidence that the longest lived people live in the coast, the first money was shells, or that in Nutrition & Physical Degeneration he talks about inland people traveling for thousands of miles to acquire sea foods.

3eafb88d6a6d762fcfa8ed4eb0576260

(642)

on May 05, 2010
at 05:06 PM

300 grass fed bison for dinner. Impressive.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on May 05, 2010
at 04:54 PM

Cutting out olive oil, poultry, pork, nuts and avocados would probably do more harm than eating some linoleic acid (Just my personal opinion).

703331bec3d551d21d2178f60c9963c1

(587)

on May 05, 2010
at 04:45 PM

yeah very true. I'm trying to gain some strength and size on paleo, so it's nearly impossible for me to keep this in a good range. Almond butter, avocadoes, and eggs are big staples for me.

A727956fa3f943057c4edb08ad9e864e

(4183)

on May 05, 2010
at 04:29 PM

Sorry meant omega 6, have edited it now.

A727956fa3f943057c4edb08ad9e864e

(4183)

on May 05, 2010
at 04:19 PM

Sigh, I had sort of figured that olive oil, poultry, pork, nuts and avocado would have to go. That's very restrictive on top of everything else to avoid. I feel most authors of paleo diet books conveniently ignore this fact when they present you with delicious sounding recipes.

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on May 05, 2010
at 03:43 PM

Most likely he talks about having Omega 6 under four percent.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 05, 2010
at 03:39 PM

Usually my fat tops out at 50%, but I'm not getting very much from omega 6 these days. I do a vegetarian breakfast, fish lunch, grass fed meat dinner. You have to avoid pork and poultry if you want to stay high fat but go low in o6.

89e238284ccb95b439edcff9e123671e

(10299)

on May 05, 2010
at 03:37 PM

Do you mean pufa under 4% or omega6 under 4%?

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7 Answers

4
9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 05, 2010
at 03:49 PM

Here is a sample menu: 2 fillets sea bass for lunch with assorted vegetables

300 grass fed bison for dinner cooked in 2 tbsp coconut oil with assorted vegetables

3 large eggs scrambled in .25 cup butter

= ~1734 calories, 65% from fat 6.2 grams omega 6 * 9 calories per gram fat = 55 calories from omega 6 = less than 3% calories omega 6, which would be less if I ate fish or grass fed meat for breakfast instead of eggs.

General rules: minimize poultry and non-grazing meat (like pork) and eat at least one fish-based meal at day

Coconut products and butter ad libetum.

No tree nuts, avocados

3eafb88d6a6d762fcfa8ed4eb0576260

(642)

on May 05, 2010
at 05:06 PM

300 grass fed bison for dinner. Impressive.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on May 05, 2010
at 04:54 PM

Cutting out olive oil, poultry, pork, nuts and avocados would probably do more harm than eating some linoleic acid (Just my personal opinion).

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 05, 2010
at 06:03 PM

You don't need to cut them out. Just eat them on weekends or treat them like dessert. I definitely used to eat mainly chicken, almond butter, avocados, pork, and nuts and feel better now that they aren't staples.

703331bec3d551d21d2178f60c9963c1

(587)

on May 05, 2010
at 04:45 PM

yeah very true. I'm trying to gain some strength and size on paleo, so it's nearly impossible for me to keep this in a good range. Almond butter, avocadoes, and eggs are big staples for me.

A727956fa3f943057c4edb08ad9e864e

(4183)

on May 05, 2010
at 04:19 PM

Sigh, I had sort of figured that olive oil, poultry, pork, nuts and avocado would have to go. That's very restrictive on top of everything else to avoid. I feel most authors of paleo diet books conveniently ignore this fact when they present you with delicious sounding recipes.

2
15d23403fb836f2b506f4f3ad2c03356

(1219)

on May 06, 2010
at 03:13 PM

It's possible but you would have to heavily concentrate on foods like butter and coconut oil that are low in omega 6. Pork, poultry, olive oil, etc are all too high in omega 6 to provide a caloric base for a very high fat diet. The problem is that it's hard to tolerate more than 300-400 calories per day from coconut oil, so you're left with having to get over 1000 calories from cow-fat. That's a little extreme. If you're not glucose intolerant (insulin resistant) why not fill up with potatoes?

1
090f2b8054d2201cd3a2fbc6bfb6932a

on May 07, 2010
at 12:36 PM

(Hi, I'm a long time listener, first time caller. 2 year+ paleo)

@Brian, you might want to check out Robb Wolf's blog and excellent podcast for information on exercise vis. a vis. paleo, specifically strength and power-based exercise. Lot's of those he trains and trains with seem to excel on an unweighed, unmeasured, paleo diet. Some are pretty high level athletes. He comes from a strength-based, Crossfit background and from a Cordain-based paleo standpoint. Also, bear in mind that paleo isn't about modeling lifestyle exactly, at least not for most people. (Well, not for me, at any rate.) So what is "strict" paleo is widely variable and I would suggest not restrictive at all. I prefer how Dr. Kurt Harris puts it: the aim, for purposes of health and well-being, is to recreate the ancestral "metabolic mileu", not a desire for "paleo re-enactment".

9a3307dc00af6a76af1aa31cedf9156e

(418)

on May 07, 2010
at 04:25 PM

I have read some of his work, and what you are saying, and Chris above you, goes along with my point: there is something to be said for watching calorie intake and nutrient breakdown, but when the diet becomes so restrictive that it is causing added stress to your body and causing you to not get enough calories for your specific lifestyle, it becomes incredibly counterproductive

1
5db563a5c94e73644be798fd16101cb8

on May 06, 2010
at 10:17 PM

I've been wondering about this question myself.

I'd like to at least mention the possibility that all LA is not created equal. Consuming large amounts of LA from industrial seed oils likely will have a very different effect on the body than consuming LA from nuts, seeds, avocados, eggs, poultry and pork.

Where I do agree with Brian is that obsessing about nutrient intake values down to half percentage points may be counterproductive. I would argue that the stress of modern living, which comes in part from our access to information and technology, is as much to blame for our current state of health as poor nutrition.

Remember, stress causes both inflammation and oxidative damage - which is what we're trying to avoid by limiting N-6 intake.

And managing stress, sleeping well, having fun, connecting with others are all important aspects of a "paleo" lifestyle. Our ancestors worked a few hours a day finding food, and spent the rest of the day in relative leisure. They didn't have 401k plans, rush-hour traffic or NutritionData.com.

I'm not saying I don't think it's important to limit N-6 intake. Just that being too rigid about it may have the opposite effect we desire.

9a3307dc00af6a76af1aa31cedf9156e

(418)

on May 07, 2010
at 04:28 PM

very well put. I was not trying to criticize the Paleo diet, just point out that there is a point of "penny pinching" with calories and nutrient breakdown that becomes overly restrictive and counterproductive

5db563a5c94e73644be798fd16101cb8

on May 09, 2010
at 02:13 PM

I agree, Brian. Although in some cases, such rigidity may be necessary. For example, if someone has a raging inflammatory condition they may very well want to restrict n-6 PUFA <2% of total calories. But even then, that's just a question of identifying the foods high in n-6 and eliminating them.

1
E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on May 05, 2010
at 05:44 PM

It's not too difficult, even a meal of half a kilogram of ground pork plus 200g butter only works out at about 13.8g omega-6 or 4.5% calories. Go with a leaner meat, grassfed meat or butter, or a less omega-6y meat (like beef) and you're sorted.

Cut out olive oil, nuts, seeds, avocado, limit eggs and get some of your animal fat from cream/butter/ghee and you're pretty sorted. NB non-grassfed butter works out at about 3.42% omega-6 by calories, so it's not exactly a free food.

090f2b8054d2201cd3a2fbc6bfb6932a

(110)

on May 07, 2010
at 12:20 PM

200g of butter!?

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on May 07, 2010
at 06:56 PM

Well I was keeping it simple, just to show that the meal could be very fatty indeed (87% fat) and still low in omega 6. Of course I wouldn't see any problem with washing down 100g of butter with a few hundred ml of double cream, if you were bored.

1
9a3307dc00af6a76af1aa31cedf9156e

(418)

on May 05, 2010
at 04:44 PM

have any of you ever wondered: paleo is supposed to mimic what primitive humans ate on a daily basis...but where the heck did cavemen live in order to catch enough fish to have them for at least one meal a day, kill grazing animals and not gorge themselves...and have assorted vegetables on their plates at every meal? this doesn't make sense!! all of you who count every single calorie and acid and fat in your diet...until fifty or so years ago we didn't even have the technology to understand these type of dietary restrictions! take a good look at what kinds of things the native american indians ate, or the ancient spartans!! the spartans were arguably the most physically fit superhumans and they ate barely extensively, and most tribes of the region had very little seafood on a regular basis! if paleo really is supposed to mimic what our ancestors ate, they ate whatever they could get their hands on, just not refined and processed foods! stop killing yourselves by blocking out all kinds of food and having no variety. Eat meats, nuts, seeds, vegetables and fruits. If you can mill your own grains then do it, drink milk, swim, run, bike, and perform weight lifting exercises all at HIGH INTENSITY. This is the key to true good health and ENJOYMENT of your lifestyle!! just sayin...

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 05, 2010
at 06:02 PM

Spartans, like NFL players, got big when young and crashed when old. Fish is probably the single most important food in human evolution, being the major source of iodine, DHA, and zinc. It's no coincidence that the longest lived people live in the coast, the first money was shells, or that in Nutrition & Physical Degeneration he talks about inland people traveling for thousands of miles to acquire sea foods.

9a3307dc00af6a76af1aa31cedf9156e

(418)

on May 05, 2010
at 07:11 PM

sorry, posted comment in wrong spot, look above...

245c53790116339bcc79fb789f6f9c9d

(744)

on May 05, 2010
at 10:19 PM

cavemen didn't have to eat daily fish because they ate way more bugs than I (and I'm assuming you) do. Bugs tend to be higher in omega 3 (which is part of why pastured chickens lay eggs higher in omega 3). I don't have a clean and convenient source of bugs right now, so I eat sardines, anchovies and herring.

-1
9a3307dc00af6a76af1aa31cedf9156e

(418)

on May 05, 2010
at 07:10 PM

they never "crashed", they usually got killed in battle since that was one of the highest honors for them. Additionally, the native american indians were known for their amazing hair and skin tone, almost non-existent degenerative diseases, and ease of birthing and child rearing, and they often would spend months inland or on the plains with little variety to their diets. For another example, look at the Tarahumara Indians of mexico, they farm most of their food and drink a grain based fermented beverage as their staple beverage. They are documented to be healthy, highly active and still distance running into their 80's! I am not saying that fish is not important, I am not saying that it is not good to try to balance your diet, but I have found that sticking strictly to Paleo is not the best solution for everybody. If you are trying to gain strength or size for any sort of sport or military purpose, strict Paleo is not the best solution. You need to vary the "recommended" ratios of nutrients to one that better suits your body, budget, and exercise regime. My main point is that caveman did not have calorie counters. They did not know what an omega-6 was, they did not know the differences between carbohydrates and proteins, or which amino acids were essential or non. It is somewhat hypocritical to try to model a lifestyle off what our ancestors did, yet eat nothing like them

9a3307dc00af6a76af1aa31cedf9156e

(418)

on May 06, 2010
at 12:45 AM

the primary complaint I here is that the diet is so restricting that they either cannot intake enough calories to effectively fuel their bodies, or they get bored with the limited amount of "variety" available from the diet. the more I read of questions and posts like the original question in this thread, the more I am questioning the rational of such a strict diet

9a3307dc00af6a76af1aa31cedf9156e

(418)

on May 06, 2010
at 12:45 AM

At this point I am trying different diets and lifestyles combined with different exercise regimes. I love the idea of eating foods that are wholesome and good for you...the idea that everything that enters your mouth can be effectively used by your body as fuel. the problem i see is that many of the strict paleo supporters that I train with consistently do not perform as well as they should.

9a3307dc00af6a76af1aa31cedf9156e

(418)

on May 06, 2010
at 12:44 AM

who the heck is Matt Stone? and why would he create a false account instead of use his real name?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 05, 2010
at 07:29 PM

BTW are you Matt Stone? :)

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on May 06, 2010
at 04:30 PM

People restrict their diet for a variety of reasons, but you do not have to be very restrictive to eat a paleolithic style diet. If someone limits foods to the point their diet is not working anymore they are doing something wrong.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 05, 2010
at 07:29 PM

This is a paleodiet site, if you are interested in agrarian diets I suggest checking out WAPF. The Tarahumara diet is fairly balanced in omega fats. None of these cultures needed to know what omega-6 was. They weren't constantly bombarded with it like we are and they couldn't go to the store and buy a cornish cross hen (which has a fat content unlike any wild animal) or a bag of cashews.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on October 15, 2011
at 06:45 PM

Synergy is important to consider. If I recall correctly the Tarahumara live primarily on corn and beans. In order to get a good chunk of protein from that combo you'd be eating large amounts of carbohydrate. Which works great if you are an endurance specialist. Try that diet when you are sedintary and lifting some weights and I suspect you are going to start having problems with insulin levels. I know I did. I was a 400 lb vegan and am a 200lbs Omnivore (lots o' meat). So Brian what do YOU actually eat?

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