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Questions on Keto

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created December 16, 2012 at 9:46 AM

Hey Hackers,

This is for those who are in the Keto Diet category.

To be honest, I actually quiet enjoy Keto, I'm less hungry and feel a bit clearer. My workouts don't really suffer if they are consistent. I just can't do H.I.I.T, which doesn't really bother me so much as I prefer to just keep that to a minimum each week.

Enough blabbing. Theoretically, being on a Ketogenic diet requires that you be <50g of net Carbohydrates daily, yes? If that was the case, I would be able to eat roughly 5 Cups of Broccoli and 1 medium banana (according to MyFitnessPal) and still be "technically" in Ketosis? The banana would be timed with my workout, as to be utilized either pre or post, depending on what I need more, energy or recovery. I don't really need starches, but I really do miss eating bananas, being an Aussie, they're here all year round and usually quite cheap.

The next question is in regards to ratios.

The typical Ketogenic Ratio is usually about 60F/30P/10C but I know that it varies from person to person. Now, I came across the ratio of 45F/45P/10C the other week and it triggered a thought.... when will muscle loss & gluconeogenesis occur? Will the body still produce ketones if the Protein & Fat caloric ratios are balanced perfectly?

For those Paleo Bodybuilders out there (if any), I'd like to draw your attention to the Palumbo Diet (he refers to it as a Keto Diet as well) which follows a ratio of 60P/30F/10C. Palumbo actually has a medical background, but apparently never graduated because they didn't focus on preventative medicine like he believes the medical system should. The same question about muscle loss & GNG apply, but also, Palumbo states:

Our bodies are amino acid driven organisms, protein driven. Everything in the body, our hair, nails, skin. And if we don't constantly consume protein, and give our body the raw materials, it can't repair itself.

I can agree with this statement as when you look at our body composition, it makes sense. Now, when it comes to consuming protein at a higher intake than fats, would it be fair to say that the body will focus more at holding onto the required amount of protein for muscle repair, utilize whatever it needs for the creation of glucose and then do away with the rest into energy expenditure? (If this part makes no sense I will try and reclarify), meaning that the fats taken in will also be kept to a moderate amount, and then after they are burnt off, body fat will be burnt faster?

This is all a very fragmented thought process, I know and I apologize, but those who are quite fit and healthy, it'd be great to hear opinions, perhaps even get those questions answered.

~ Cricket

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

I'd say cut down the workouts to 1-2 a week of the heavy ones, and cut out as much of the ones that count as cardio - these will require the most carbs. Also randomize them. I'd be careful of the broccoli, too much is goitrogenic - that is it's harmful to your thyroid, which indirectly controls fat levels. The only super food is liver, and you shouldn't eat tons of it every day either. The best thing to do is to cycle your detox pathways by eating different veggies each day, and avoid eating crucifers every day. i.e. eating broccoli today should exclude cauliflower too for the next few days.

2e1591c76896828077b930de5107f1af

on December 19, 2012
at 04:33 PM

waste* im just saying that only 1g\pound of BW is Nessesary for muscle growth,

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on December 18, 2012
at 11:49 AM

Look into Art De Vany's book New Evolution Diet for his workout strategies. You'll want to avoid the same routine each week. Vary volume, intensity, frequency of workouts. The ideal thing is to workout 1x a week with weights or HIIT so you have time to recover. 5 days a week is far too much. You don't lose fat with exercise, you gain muscle. If you do too much of what counts as cardio rather than weight lifting, you run the risk of chronic cardio leading to chronic stress levels. Look at how you feel after your workouts. If you are energized and happy, it's fine.

125dfe387c83d848c2fe92de6d8bfdf0

(365)

on December 18, 2012
at 12:14 AM

But I think what annoys me, is I've never found a workout regimen that I could do for an extended period of time. Most of the types relate to lifting. I'm an actor and martial artist, so I want to train like a bit of an athlete, but without the reliance of carbs so much.\

125dfe387c83d848c2fe92de6d8bfdf0

(365)

on December 18, 2012
at 12:13 AM

Workout wise it really does vary. I work out 5 days a week like so: 1 min jump rope between exercises - 8 Count Down Pushups (x 2) 30 second Rest - 15 Dips (x 2) - 40 Leg Scissors (x2) - 50 Prisoner Squats - 10 Jumping Jack Pushups (x2) - 10 Straight Body Situps & V-Ups (x2) - 20 Burpees (x2) It does seem quite intense, but I think the beauty of calisthenics is that it works the muscles to an extent that they won't be fully torn as opposed to weights. I was just thinking of doing 20 mins of Kettlebell swings at a ratio of 40/20 3 x a week.

125dfe387c83d848c2fe92de6d8bfdf0

(365)

on December 18, 2012
at 12:03 AM

The broccoli is more there for it's micronutrient content... I do love my broccoli, and being a cruciferous veggie, there isn't much in the way of carbs either. I've tried leangains before with a "moderate" intake of carbs after the higher end just made me feel bleugh. I was lifting quite heavy. I will definitely look into eating more liver and whatnot.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on December 17, 2012
at 07:06 PM

You can also try this, but, skip the workouts if you do. http://www.bulletproofexec.com/rapid-fat-loss-protocol/

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on December 17, 2012
at 07:05 PM

You're welcome. 15% is not a bad place to see, you won't see your abs there, but if that's what you're after, either try a bulletproof fast, or try leangains. I think you're eating too much broccoli (using it as a filler so you don't feel hungry?), and not enough fat, so likely you're high on insulin, which will prevent fat loss. I'd go higher on coconut oil and avoid consuming it when also consuming carbs, instead. I'd also look into choline sources: liver, egg yolks. Also, you'll want to post some details about workouts, if you do too much, it'll prevent fat loss.

Cf416725f639ffd1bb90764792ce7b8a

(2799)

on December 17, 2012
at 03:26 AM

I do carbs during lifting. I tried no carb lifting at first and it was ugly. 8 grams before and anywhere from 8 to 36 grams during. I'm too cheap to buy superstarch so I use Optimum Nutrition Glycomaize, Unflavored. Which I'm not convinced isn't probably much the same thing. I know it's not so paleo but carrying around fruit got old. My weight lose did slow after 6 months. I do a once every week or so high carb meal to keep the metabolism up and that does seem to help keep the fat loss going.

125dfe387c83d848c2fe92de6d8bfdf0

(365)

on December 17, 2012
at 12:26 AM

Hey Rob, while on that type of diet, has your metabolism slowed down much? And do you do any refeeds?

125dfe387c83d848c2fe92de6d8bfdf0

(365)

on December 16, 2012
at 01:09 PM

I also do 40 min of Moderate Intensity Callisthenics. So it's intense enough that I break a sweat and get the muscle fibers working, but not so much that I don't think I'd NEED to replenish my glycogen. My real aim is to get to 10% BF by March.. I'm sitting at roughly 15, and am question whether or not I really need to re-introduce carbs, even though I don't really want to build any more muscle.

125dfe387c83d848c2fe92de6d8bfdf0

(365)

on December 16, 2012
at 01:06 PM

Finally, someone answers with as a ridiculously long amount as I!!! If I could get your opinion on this breakdown Ray, that'd be awesome. I actually follow a Warrior Diet protocol, so one big meal at night (it's satisfying and also convenient for me). Morning - Bulletproof Coffee with 50g Westgold Unsalted Butter & 2 Tbsp of MCT Oil. Dinner - 4 Cups Broccoli, 450g Steak, 100g Short Cut Bacon & 2 Eggs. It works out to about 1700 Calories @ 125g Fat, 135g Protein, and roughly 15g Carbs (including the Fiber, though it's probably less).

Eed7dabde3d61910685845e04605267f

(2934)

on December 16, 2012
at 12:25 PM

waste or waist? is that a clever pun, and you're saying excessive gluconeogenesis can contribute to ketotic people gaining weight (of courrse in a caloric excess situation..)?

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3 Answers

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1
96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on December 16, 2012
at 12:38 PM

You'll probably want to do a carb refeed after a workout, but not immediately. Perhaps an hour after the workout, and be sure to include protein as well for the muscle repairs. This is merely to help replenish liver and muscle glucose. You'll know you need this if after a couple of hours post workout, you feel no energy and want to sleep for the rest of the day. If this isn't your situation, you won't need it.

For some people the above is needed to recover post-workout. Others have a much easier time doing gluconeogenesis, and thus convert consumed protein into glucose. It's probably quicker and less stressful on your body to just consume enough glucose, though you'll want to avoid doing the same thing all the time, so that your body can adapt to any situation.

The reason you don't want to eat immediately after a workout, and will want to work out fasted (or at least only on fats) is so that you have a chance to reset your insulin sensitivity - at least this is what Art De Vany recommended on his old pay-for site.

Eating some quickly digesting carbs (fruit, or maybe honey or maple syrup) an hour or two after your workout, i.e. carb backloading, provides the other end of the insulin reset. So that way your cells are exposed to both low and high insulin. Plus the insulin from the carbs will help bring the protein into the muscle (although this last point might just be bro-science as the actual muscle repair won't fully happen until you sleep.)

If you find you don't quite have enough energy to complete the HIIT workout, perhaps have a bulletproof coffee right before, and add whatever ergogenics you use, such as creatine/beta-alanine/BCAA to it. The caffeine itself will help. If you don't do coffee, you can do the same thing with whatever tea you enjoy and make a tea that you put in a blender with coconut oil and butter. I've even added red palm oil to this at times for the full spectrum vitamin E and carrotenoids.

Coconut oil, being about 50% MCT (medium chain triglycerides), and MCT being easily converted into ketones will help fuel your workout. You can skip this and burn your own fat stores, but if you find you can't easily get through your HIIT, a bit of supplementation will help, plus you'll do more tears to the muscle tissue since you'll have greater volume/intensity so after the recovery, you'll have more muscle to burn off more fat than you would otherwise.

Bananas are bit high in fructose for my taste for every day use (as opposed to PWO meal), but eating them after you are glucose depleted (post workout) is absolutely fine because in this state, and this state only, the liver can convert them into glucose rather than fat, versus the SAD where people would drink HFCS laden soft drinks the whole day long and lead to non-alcoholic fatty liver disease.

In terms of protein, you do only need 1g-1.5g of protein intake per day for every lbs of lean body weight for muscle maintenance and growth, but of course, this isn't 1g of meat. Meat is 25%-33% protein by weight, so you'd multiply by 3 or 4 depending on the type of meat. Even with whey powders, it's not 100% protein, so you'll have to look at the label to figure out how many grams to take, though it's a lot closer to 100% protein than not depending on additives.

If you want to stay ketogenic, most of your calories should be from fats. Even if you do eat some carbs, and even if you do eat bananas, you'll still be ketogenic as long as your insulin stays low for most of the time. The sharp rise in that one post workout meal won't have too much of an effect. And if you consume coconut oil or MCT oil, you'll certainly produce ketones no matter what. (But doing so in a high carb diet will be wasteful as the high baseline level of insulin will force most of that to go to storage instead of to use.)

If you go too high on protein, and get most of your calories from protein, it will be converted to glucose, then to body fat, so actual high fat intake is important.

125dfe387c83d848c2fe92de6d8bfdf0

(365)

on December 16, 2012
at 01:06 PM

Finally, someone answers with as a ridiculously long amount as I!!! If I could get your opinion on this breakdown Ray, that'd be awesome. I actually follow a Warrior Diet protocol, so one big meal at night (it's satisfying and also convenient for me). Morning - Bulletproof Coffee with 50g Westgold Unsalted Butter & 2 Tbsp of MCT Oil. Dinner - 4 Cups Broccoli, 450g Steak, 100g Short Cut Bacon & 2 Eggs. It works out to about 1700 Calories @ 125g Fat, 135g Protein, and roughly 15g Carbs (including the Fiber, though it's probably less).

125dfe387c83d848c2fe92de6d8bfdf0

(365)

on December 16, 2012
at 01:09 PM

I also do 40 min of Moderate Intensity Callisthenics. So it's intense enough that I break a sweat and get the muscle fibers working, but not so much that I don't think I'd NEED to replenish my glycogen. My real aim is to get to 10% BF by March.. I'm sitting at roughly 15, and am question whether or not I really need to re-introduce carbs, even though I don't really want to build any more muscle.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on December 17, 2012
at 07:06 PM

You can also try this, but, skip the workouts if you do. http://www.bulletproofexec.com/rapid-fat-loss-protocol/

125dfe387c83d848c2fe92de6d8bfdf0

(365)

on December 18, 2012
at 12:03 AM

The broccoli is more there for it's micronutrient content... I do love my broccoli, and being a cruciferous veggie, there isn't much in the way of carbs either. I've tried leangains before with a "moderate" intake of carbs after the higher end just made me feel bleugh. I was lifting quite heavy. I will definitely look into eating more liver and whatnot.

125dfe387c83d848c2fe92de6d8bfdf0

(365)

on December 18, 2012
at 12:14 AM

But I think what annoys me, is I've never found a workout regimen that I could do for an extended period of time. Most of the types relate to lifting. I'm an actor and martial artist, so I want to train like a bit of an athlete, but without the reliance of carbs so much.\

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on December 17, 2012
at 07:05 PM

You're welcome. 15% is not a bad place to see, you won't see your abs there, but if that's what you're after, either try a bulletproof fast, or try leangains. I think you're eating too much broccoli (using it as a filler so you don't feel hungry?), and not enough fat, so likely you're high on insulin, which will prevent fat loss. I'd go higher on coconut oil and avoid consuming it when also consuming carbs, instead. I'd also look into choline sources: liver, egg yolks. Also, you'll want to post some details about workouts, if you do too much, it'll prevent fat loss.

125dfe387c83d848c2fe92de6d8bfdf0

(365)

on December 18, 2012
at 12:13 AM

Workout wise it really does vary. I work out 5 days a week like so: 1 min jump rope between exercises - 8 Count Down Pushups (x 2) 30 second Rest - 15 Dips (x 2) - 40 Leg Scissors (x2) - 50 Prisoner Squats - 10 Jumping Jack Pushups (x2) - 10 Straight Body Situps & V-Ups (x2) - 20 Burpees (x2) It does seem quite intense, but I think the beauty of calisthenics is that it works the muscles to an extent that they won't be fully torn as opposed to weights. I was just thinking of doing 20 mins of Kettlebell swings at a ratio of 40/20 3 x a week.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

I'd say cut down the workouts to 1-2 a week of the heavy ones, and cut out as much of the ones that count as cardio - these will require the most carbs. Also randomize them. I'd be careful of the broccoli, too much is goitrogenic - that is it's harmful to your thyroid, which indirectly controls fat levels. The only super food is liver, and you shouldn't eat tons of it every day either. The best thing to do is to cycle your detox pathways by eating different veggies each day, and avoid eating crucifers every day. i.e. eating broccoli today should exclude cauliflower too for the next few days.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on December 18, 2012
at 11:49 AM

Look into Art De Vany's book New Evolution Diet for his workout strategies. You'll want to avoid the same routine each week. Vary volume, intensity, frequency of workouts. The ideal thing is to workout 1x a week with weights or HIIT so you have time to recover. 5 days a week is far too much. You don't lose fat with exercise, you gain muscle. If you do too much of what counts as cardio rather than weight lifting, you run the risk of chronic cardio leading to chronic stress levels. Look at how you feel after your workouts. If you are energized and happy, it's fine.

1
Cf416725f639ffd1bb90764792ce7b8a

(2799)

on December 16, 2012
at 03:04 PM

Maybe Palumbo is onto something. I haven't looked at my percentages in a while but I'm running about 60P/35f/5C. My bodyfat slowly goes down. My muscle slowly goes up. Since everything is going in the right direction I'm happy.

Here's a good article on the problem with thinking in percentages...http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/diet-percentages-part-2.html

I used to worry about gluconeogenesis. Now I realize that even if I don't have the old keto taste in my mouth (the nice thing about ketostix is that you can learn how the slight odd taste in your mouth corresponds to the degree of purple on the stick) 24/7 I still lose bodyfat so all is well.

Cf416725f639ffd1bb90764792ce7b8a

(2799)

on December 17, 2012
at 03:26 AM

I do carbs during lifting. I tried no carb lifting at first and it was ugly. 8 grams before and anywhere from 8 to 36 grams during. I'm too cheap to buy superstarch so I use Optimum Nutrition Glycomaize, Unflavored. Which I'm not convinced isn't probably much the same thing. I know it's not so paleo but carrying around fruit got old. My weight lose did slow after 6 months. I do a once every week or so high carb meal to keep the metabolism up and that does seem to help keep the fat loss going.

125dfe387c83d848c2fe92de6d8bfdf0

(365)

on December 17, 2012
at 12:26 AM

Hey Rob, while on that type of diet, has your metabolism slowed down much? And do you do any refeeds?

0
2e1591c76896828077b930de5107f1af

on December 16, 2012
at 12:08 PM

you only actualy need 1g of P\per pound of body weight,(not counting the fat weight) exess protein will go to waist, so i fill in the rest of the calories with carbs, but in your case it would be fat.

Eed7dabde3d61910685845e04605267f

(2934)

on December 16, 2012
at 12:25 PM

waste or waist? is that a clever pun, and you're saying excessive gluconeogenesis can contribute to ketotic people gaining weight (of courrse in a caloric excess situation..)?

2e1591c76896828077b930de5107f1af

on December 19, 2012
at 04:33 PM

waste* im just saying that only 1g\pound of BW is Nessesary for muscle growth,

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