14

votes

How Much of the "Metabolic Derangement" We Hear About is Due to a Sedentary Lifestyle?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created November 10, 2011 at 11:17 PM

Effects of exercise and lack of exercise on glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity

Improvement in Glucose Tolerance After 1 Wk of Exercise in Patients With Mild NIDDM

Effects of Exercise on Glucose Tolerance and Insulin Resistance

[Changes Induced by Physical Activity and Weight Loss in the Morphology of Intermyofibrillar Mitochondria in Obese Men and Women

Is the metabolic derangement attributed to "burnt out pancreatic beta cells" actually the result of mitochondrial atrophy in skeletal muscle in response to a sedentary lifestyle? Perhaps proper carbohydrate tolerance is contingent upon an evolutionarily-appropriate level of activity.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

but we have no idea how overweight they are or what there diet was before paleo or if there chronic training might be causing cortisol issues.

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on October 08, 2012
at 11:58 AM

In my personal experience walking brisky (with a pack) 6 miles a day (to and from school) as a teen did nothing for my carbohydrate tolerance or weight. I also find keeping a low weight much easier on LC even doing no exercise than I did doing about an hour a day cardio/weights and eating plain kidney beans, steamed carrots, brocolli and lean turkey breasts. That said it seems likely that supra-evolutionary exercise (say 10k running per day) would improve one's glucose tolerance, but maybe not enough to make eating carbs advisable.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on October 08, 2012
at 10:31 AM

Interesting studies. Actually a lot of stoners do seem quite quite skinny, especially for the calories they consume.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 12, 2011
at 12:48 AM

I want to respond to this comment "Once again, this isn't about fatness at all, this about the effect of systemic oxidative capacity on one's tolerance of carbohydrate ingestion. This is about mitochondrial fuel selection. Highly active fat people should have no issues with carbohydrates, whether they slowly get fatter or not." First of all metabolic derangement has everything to do with fatness. You can't disentangle them. Second, whether they "should" or not, they most often do, which is easily evidenced by the fact that they lose their fat as soon as they restrict the carbs.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 12, 2011
at 12:40 AM

Travis, I'm sorry you felt disregarded. I still don't think you are understanding that sedentary does not describe most people here with carbohydrate intolerance.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on November 12, 2011
at 12:37 AM

Travis I appreciate the time and effort you've put in. It did come across as a shot though. The old "you did this to yourselves you fat, lazy stupid..." I'm glad to know you don't mean it that way. I always feel like the carb promoters keep trying to imply that I/we must be doing something wrong because a normal person wouldn't/shouldn't be as I/we am/are. It's just gets tiring. Some people like Luckybastard seem to "recover" and some like me and some others around here do not which IS interesting. Touchy subject though to be sure.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 12, 2011
at 12:37 AM

If someone is as active as we evolved to be (walks 5+ miles a day, does strenuous things here and there) and can't tolerate carbohydrates, then we have something to talk about. If they only walk to and from their car and the last strenuous thing they did was chase a bus in the early 90s, then that's bullshit and they should fail a glucose tolerance test. That's what this post is about. I'm beginning to see why most doctors are such cynical bastards.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 12, 2011
at 12:24 AM

I would love to be able to eat potatoes and yams, Travis. It has nothing to do with desire. It's my reality.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 12, 2011
at 12:21 AM

Well, honestly, your question was deeply offensive. You are implying that we are messed up because we have been lazy. It's especially hurtful, because many people have already spoken at great length about how exercise failed them. So given this offensiveness, I think the response has been relatively mild and tolerant.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 12, 2011
at 12:10 AM

You know, I'm not part of the Tuber Lobby trying to trick you guys into eating carbs. This was a gift, not a shot across your bow, but anything like this results in strange faction behavior and defensive attitudes. The high-fiving here is puerile at best. I feel like I've really wasted my time trying to figure out why some people can't tolerate carbohydrates. It's not that they can't, it's that they don't want to. You guys are on your own. Best of luck to you.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 12, 2011
at 12:04 AM

Exercise has lots of benefits, I just don't think preventing metabolic syndrome is one of them.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 11, 2011
at 11:57 PM

Seems to me like ZC just masks a pathology associated with sedentary living, which is itself must be dangerous far beyond glucose tolerance.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 11, 2011
at 11:55 PM

Once again, this isn't about fatness at all, this about the effect of systemic oxidative capacity on one's tolerance of carbohydrate ingestion. This is about mitochondrial fuel selection. Highly active fat people should have no issues with carbohydrates, whether they slowly get fatter or not.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 11, 2011
at 11:55 PM

But it can reverse all signs of metabolic syndrome in the body.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 11, 2011
at 11:54 PM

I see what you are saying. Yes, carb restriction doesn't usually then make it so you can eat carbs again, although I've heard a couple of such stories here.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 11, 2011
at 11:51 PM

But Travis, most fat people I know are active. I got plenty of exercise in the years I was getting the fattest.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 11, 2011
at 11:47 PM

Seems like you haven't reversed it if you can't tolerate carbohydrates like the rest of the *active* species.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on November 11, 2011
at 11:38 PM

Kick ass. Take names.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on November 11, 2011
at 11:37 PM

I like this response, amber. Plus 1

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on November 11, 2011
at 07:35 PM

Nah, they got a 64oz big gulp and large fry with that hamburger. Plenty of sweets and sugar there.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on November 11, 2011
at 07:16 PM

Nah...they ALWAYS got them a big gulp with a hamburger.

B124653b19ee9dd438710a38954ed4a3

(1634)

on November 11, 2011
at 04:27 PM

Good topic! I'm tempted to start a question asking for career ideas that include fairly constant physical activity but also lots of intellectual challenges (currently a jack-of-many trades related to keeping the internet/networks/systems running)

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 11, 2011
at 12:54 PM

In my experience fat people live off hamburgers, sweets weren't that appealing when I was overweight. The funny thing is that if obese people tried to live off nothing but chocolate bars they would probably lose weight

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 11, 2011
at 05:45 AM

I don't really mean appetite *for* carbs, but rather appetite after eating more naturally occurring carbs.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on November 11, 2011
at 04:59 AM

Travis, it's a great inquiry but I just don't know. As best I can tell, my activity level and appetite for carbs is not correlated in any significant fashion.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 11, 2011
at 04:37 AM

I guess binging adds another dimension to it, but what I mean is I wonder if your physical reaction to carb intake is activity-dependent. For example, I get roughly the same satiety from a piece of meat as I do from a sweet potato. This wasn't always the case, but I'm way more active now than before.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 11, 2011
at 04:20 AM

Yeah, I don't think exercise will make much of a difference if someone's nuked their hypothalamus with MSG for example, but it would still make them tolerate carbohydrates a lot better.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on November 11, 2011
at 04:20 AM

Travis~ Gotcha!

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on November 11, 2011
at 04:13 AM

The only thing that has EVER tampered my appetite is primal with IF.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on November 11, 2011
at 04:12 AM

Travis, tubers don't help stabilize my appetite. I'm just saying my metabolism has been pretty much the same when I was a couch potato, an exercise junkie and everywhere in between. Some binges included large numbers of sweet potatoes with butter (not substitutes.) Go figure.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on November 11, 2011
at 03:46 AM

[Dr Briffa](http://www.drbriffa.com/blog/) has a relevant post.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 11, 2011
at 03:33 AM

There's a lot more to it than just weight gain.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 11, 2011
at 03:32 AM

So if you had been eating tubers instead of wheat you may have had a normal appetite?

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on November 11, 2011
at 03:18 AM

I'm disagreeing with you only because I've gained weight at the same rate regardless of my exercise level. It took the same number of months to put 50 pounds back on whether I was a couch potato or an exercise junkie.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on November 11, 2011
at 02:55 AM

Foot in mouth disease cliff...I've gone from casually walking a mile a day to around ten miles a day. I also spent a lot more time parked in front of a PC, and driving 5 hours at a shot, than I do now. Besides the walking I also bowl half a dozen games a week.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on November 11, 2011
at 02:15 AM

BTW, the spinal issues I mentioned above involved 2 different congenital deformities. My back problems started long before I got into heavy workouts although I grew up working very hard.

93ae9f2d376e5426e891a9b58d8302fa

(2936)

on November 11, 2011
at 02:03 AM

I never had a heart attack.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 11, 2011
at 02:02 AM

Exercise doesn't preclude one from developing CHD or CHF. Simply being deficient in K2, having excessive oxidative stress etc. etc. could counteract the benefits, at least from a cardiovascular standpoint. He probably would have passed a glucose tolerance test the day before the heart attack though.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on November 11, 2011
at 02:01 AM

Travis, I handled the carbs I was eating then as well as I ever did. I actually felt wonderful, slept good and ate everything in sight until I started gaining. My carbs included lots of wheat along with refined sugars and fruit. As I said, SAD. If you're wondering how I wound up fat, I had spinal issues that led to a fusion and couldn't exercise for months. I never regained full health after that until I went primal.

1f8384be58052b6b96f476e475abdc74

(2231)

on November 11, 2011
at 01:56 AM

the easiest way for me to gain weight is lift and increase activity. i become sedentary, i lose weight

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on November 11, 2011
at 01:47 AM

Why would you consider it a separate issue?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 11, 2011
at 01:37 AM

The heart failure would be a separate issue related to the oxidation of lipoproteins that entered the arterial lining and became plaques.

93ae9f2d376e5426e891a9b58d8302fa

(2936)

on November 11, 2011
at 01:34 AM

My story is almost identical. Lotta biking, trying to shed the carbs I allowed myself to indulge in. Got a very strong heart, which let me survive heart failure, but I shouldn't have gotten CHF in the first place, if exercise was the determinant.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 11, 2011
at 01:31 AM

Right but could you handle carbs?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 11, 2011
at 01:25 AM

OK I edited the title to metabolic derangement because I'm specifically talking about insulin resistance/glucose intolerance.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on November 11, 2011
at 01:20 AM

Travis~ To me the most apparent sign of a broken metabolism is overweight--sorry if we are talking at cross purposes!

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on November 11, 2011
at 01:18 AM

Also, I have seen many accounts of totally sedentary or injured folks dropping all their excess body fat after going Primal/Paleo. It seems to me that their metabolisms must be working just fine in spite of the lack of movement. I suspect that healing their guts plays a huge role here.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 11, 2011
at 01:15 AM

That overweight triathlete wouldn't fail a glucose tolerance test.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on November 11, 2011
at 01:14 AM

For sure, Cliff. But Travis is asking if lack of activity is causing broken metabolisms and I keep seeing overweight folks posting about how much activity they are doing (and were doing) and how they cannot lose body fat. I'm still with the 80% diet folks. And looking at people in wheelchairs who don't gain body fat (like Stephen Hawking) and many folks I've seen with cerebal palsy, makes me doubt that activity is a very big factor.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 11, 2011
at 01:13 AM

I'm not really talking about overweight/obesity, just intolerance of carbohydrates.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on November 11, 2011
at 01:03 AM

Here's one: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread35-276.html#post618494 See #2755 (overweight triathlete--not long-distance runner)

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 11, 2011
at 12:57 AM

Do you have an example?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 11, 2011
at 12:13 AM

How are you pretty active yet inactive and obese at the same time?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 11, 2011
at 12:04 AM

How active? What sort of things did you do?

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on November 10, 2011
at 11:48 PM

I dont know if this is a question....can I just write I agree?

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16 Answers

19
100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 11, 2011
at 11:27 PM

Hmm. I find this question ironic. You seem to be searching for a reason that carbohydrates might not cause metabolic syndrome, even though carbohydrate restriction generally reverses it. And yet your argument is of the same form: Doing X improves insulin sensitivity, so maybe not doing X causes it.

Here's another one:

How much of the "Metabolic Derangement" we hear about is due to a cannabis-free lifestyle?

Effects of Cannabis on Fat Metabolism

Biological effects of THC and a lipophilic cannabis extract on normal and insulin resistant 3T3-L1 adipocytes.

Does cannabis hold the key to treating cardiometabolic disease?

Modulation of Adipocyte Biology by ??9-Tetrahydrocannabinol

Is the metabolic derangement attributed to "burnt out pancreatic beta cells" actually the result of reduced adiponectin transcription in response to a cannabis-free lifestyle? Perhaps proper carbohydrate tolerance is contingent upon an evolutionarily-appropriate level of herbal supplementation.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on November 11, 2011
at 11:37 PM

I like this response, amber. Plus 1

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 12, 2011
at 12:04 AM

Exercise has lots of benefits, I just don't think preventing metabolic syndrome is one of them.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 11, 2011
at 11:51 PM

But Travis, most fat people I know are active. I got plenty of exercise in the years I was getting the fattest.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 12, 2011
at 12:37 AM

If someone is as active as we evolved to be (walks 5+ miles a day, does strenuous things here and there) and can't tolerate carbohydrates, then we have something to talk about. If they only walk to and from their car and the last strenuous thing they did was chase a bus in the early 90s, then that's bullshit and they should fail a glucose tolerance test. That's what this post is about. I'm beginning to see why most doctors are such cynical bastards.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 11, 2011
at 11:47 PM

Seems like you haven't reversed it if you can't tolerate carbohydrates like the rest of the *active* species.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 12, 2011
at 12:24 AM

I would love to be able to eat potatoes and yams, Travis. It has nothing to do with desire. It's my reality.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on November 11, 2011
at 11:38 PM

Kick ass. Take names.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 11, 2011
at 11:57 PM

Seems to me like ZC just masks a pathology associated with sedentary living, which is itself must be dangerous far beyond glucose tolerance.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 12, 2011
at 12:10 AM

You know, I'm not part of the Tuber Lobby trying to trick you guys into eating carbs. This was a gift, not a shot across your bow, but anything like this results in strange faction behavior and defensive attitudes. The high-fiving here is puerile at best. I feel like I've really wasted my time trying to figure out why some people can't tolerate carbohydrates. It's not that they can't, it's that they don't want to. You guys are on your own. Best of luck to you.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 12, 2011
at 12:21 AM

Well, honestly, your question was deeply offensive. You are implying that we are messed up because we have been lazy. It's especially hurtful, because many people have already spoken at great length about how exercise failed them. So given this offensiveness, I think the response has been relatively mild and tolerant.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 12, 2011
at 12:48 AM

I want to respond to this comment "Once again, this isn't about fatness at all, this about the effect of systemic oxidative capacity on one's tolerance of carbohydrate ingestion. This is about mitochondrial fuel selection. Highly active fat people should have no issues with carbohydrates, whether they slowly get fatter or not." First of all metabolic derangement has everything to do with fatness. You can't disentangle them. Second, whether they "should" or not, they most often do, which is easily evidenced by the fact that they lose their fat as soon as they restrict the carbs.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 11, 2011
at 11:55 PM

Once again, this isn't about fatness at all, this about the effect of systemic oxidative capacity on one's tolerance of carbohydrate ingestion. This is about mitochondrial fuel selection. Highly active fat people should have no issues with carbohydrates, whether they slowly get fatter or not.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 11, 2011
at 11:55 PM

But it can reverse all signs of metabolic syndrome in the body.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 12, 2011
at 12:40 AM

Travis, I'm sorry you felt disregarded. I still don't think you are understanding that sedentary does not describe most people here with carbohydrate intolerance.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on November 11, 2011
at 11:54 PM

I see what you are saying. Yes, carb restriction doesn't usually then make it so you can eat carbs again, although I've heard a couple of such stories here.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on November 12, 2011
at 12:37 AM

Travis I appreciate the time and effort you've put in. It did come across as a shot though. The old "you did this to yourselves you fat, lazy stupid..." I'm glad to know you don't mean it that way. I always feel like the carb promoters keep trying to imply that I/we must be doing something wrong because a normal person wouldn't/shouldn't be as I/we am/are. It's just gets tiring. Some people like Luckybastard seem to "recover" and some like me and some others around here do not which IS interesting. Touchy subject though to be sure.

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on October 08, 2012
at 11:58 AM

In my personal experience walking brisky (with a pack) 6 miles a day (to and from school) as a teen did nothing for my carbohydrate tolerance or weight. I also find keeping a low weight much easier on LC even doing no exercise than I did doing about an hour a day cardio/weights and eating plain kidney beans, steamed carrots, brocolli and lean turkey breasts. That said it seems likely that supra-evolutionary exercise (say 10k running per day) would improve one's glucose tolerance, but maybe not enough to make eating carbs advisable.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on October 08, 2012
at 10:31 AM

Interesting studies. Actually a lot of stoners do seem quite quite skinny, especially for the calories they consume.

8
24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on November 11, 2011
at 01:25 PM

Off the bat this brings us back to the old question of exactly what it is we're talking about with "metabolic derangement". If I understand correctly you're wondering what amount of this is attributed to your poor overworked pancreas that is due instead to impaired cellular metabolism. My educated guess on that is probably close to 95%! Why do I believe that? Well, what I would call the triad of verified human clinical experience reversing diabetes: GBP, the crash diet, and early insulin treatment. (I'm happy to expand that list if anyone knows of others). We're talking restoration of beta cell function and normal glucose homeostasis in periods ranging from several days to a couple of months. That the reversals occur in a high percentage of some with the most deranged metabolisms (morbidly obese diabetics) speaks to the resiliency of our beta cells. Put another way, this so-called carbohydrate intolerance is not "accumulated" over time. If such high percents of already diabetic subjects can achieve reversal, then those who are only slightly impaired are likely almost entirely "curable".

I do believe that the impaired cellular metabolism -- dysfunctional mitochondria -- is at the root of this. However the evidence is strong that excess fuel delivery to cells ??? lipotoxicity ??? mitochondrial dysfunction ??? more lipid accumulation ??? more lipotoxicity ??? etc.etc. You need to drain the sludge and stop overdelivering fuel. Evidence of pre-existing defects is not strong. Such are rare. (Aside: If one has some innate defect in their ability to oxidize fats, how would eating a higher fat diet help?)

Back to the mitos: exercise helps drain the sludge. I would dare say that your four citations are but a drop in the bucket. Caloric restriction accompanying that will drain it faster and proper intake will prevent it from building up again. Still, even if one is at a higher than desired weight -- e.g. carry extra fat mass and therefore are continually eating more than their ideal weight self would eat (me!) -- exercise/activity is invaluable. Keep the engine running ??? less lipid accumulation/backlog ??? improved insulin sensitivity ??? healthier mitochondria.

I would also say that if I were among some of the respondents here for whom an active lifestyle and healthy diet does not restore their metabolisms, they need to

  1. Actually get an OGTT done with insulin levels measured so they know what is really going in their body, instead of divining it from various theories out there, and/or
  2. Reconsider the fat content (type and amount) of their diet.

I haven't really looked into what kind of tests are available to directly assess beta cell mass. There are certainly numerous underlying pathologies that manifest as hyperglycemia (fasting and/or postprandial). If you have significantly diminished beta cell mass then what works for someone else will not work for you. Also, I know #2 is not going to sit well with a lot of folks. It's a rough one for me as well (thankfully I'm not glucose intolerant). All I can say is different circumstances call for different approaches. In the past couple of weeks I've come across a ton of studies, done in real human beings under controlled (verifiable) conditions, that demonstrate dramatic improvements in glucose homeostasis on low fat high carb diets. These studies and observations of decades and even centuries of cultures like the Pima (yes those Pima, traditional Arizona variety), Kitivans, and Okinawans cannot be ignored.

7
7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on November 11, 2011
at 01:19 AM

The definition ???broken metabolism??? seems a little fluid. I think outside of low-carb, people speak about ???broken metabolisms??? as the result of low calorie diets slowing down their metabolisms, where in low-carb circles I think they imply that a ???broken metabolism??? is a result of too many carbs somehow impairing insulin resistance.

I think much of the evidence supports the idea that carbs increase insulin sensitivity though instead of increasing insulin resistance. I think type 2 diabetes seems to result from lipotoxicity and genetics, and I am pretty skeptical of the idea that too many carbs per se wear out the pancreas.

Exercise increases insulin sensitivity which should be a good in of itself, but I don't know to what degree this would help with a broken metabolisms. Exercise may be effective in protecting the liver from fatty deposits though.

There does seem to be certain subset of people that never tested their blood sugar until after they were LC for a while, then point at glucose spikes from high carb food as evidence of their broken metabolism. I think if you are LC for an extended period, it is perfectly normal to get these kind of spikes from carb loads that you are not used to.

6
96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on November 11, 2011
at 01:27 AM

In my 40s, I was riding my bicycle about 250 miles per week (3-4 20 milers and one 78.) In addition, I went line dancing 4 nights per week, attended body sculpting twice and step aerobics twice. Is that sedentary? If so, I'll answer your question Yes.

Otherwise, I must report that my appetite was totally insane and I managed to eat enough that I had to diet to stay at my desired weight.

I was eating "healthy SAD" at the time, and I think that's the factor we can/should talk about. With indulgences such as pizza. And baked goods. etc., etc.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on November 11, 2011
at 04:59 AM

Travis, it's a great inquiry but I just don't know. As best I can tell, my activity level and appetite for carbs is not correlated in any significant fashion.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 11, 2011
at 05:45 AM

I don't really mean appetite *for* carbs, but rather appetite after eating more naturally occurring carbs.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on November 11, 2011
at 01:47 AM

Why would you consider it a separate issue?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 11, 2011
at 01:37 AM

The heart failure would be a separate issue related to the oxidation of lipoproteins that entered the arterial lining and became plaques.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on November 11, 2011
at 02:01 AM

Travis, I handled the carbs I was eating then as well as I ever did. I actually felt wonderful, slept good and ate everything in sight until I started gaining. My carbs included lots of wheat along with refined sugars and fruit. As I said, SAD. If you're wondering how I wound up fat, I had spinal issues that led to a fusion and couldn't exercise for months. I never regained full health after that until I went primal.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 11, 2011
at 01:31 AM

Right but could you handle carbs?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 11, 2011
at 03:32 AM

So if you had been eating tubers instead of wheat you may have had a normal appetite?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 11, 2011
at 02:02 AM

Exercise doesn't preclude one from developing CHD or CHF. Simply being deficient in K2, having excessive oxidative stress etc. etc. could counteract the benefits, at least from a cardiovascular standpoint. He probably would have passed a glucose tolerance test the day before the heart attack though.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on November 11, 2011
at 02:15 AM

BTW, the spinal issues I mentioned above involved 2 different congenital deformities. My back problems started long before I got into heavy workouts although I grew up working very hard.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 11, 2011
at 04:37 AM

I guess binging adds another dimension to it, but what I mean is I wonder if your physical reaction to carb intake is activity-dependent. For example, I get roughly the same satiety from a piece of meat as I do from a sweet potato. This wasn't always the case, but I'm way more active now than before.

93ae9f2d376e5426e891a9b58d8302fa

(2936)

on November 11, 2011
at 01:34 AM

My story is almost identical. Lotta biking, trying to shed the carbs I allowed myself to indulge in. Got a very strong heart, which let me survive heart failure, but I shouldn't have gotten CHF in the first place, if exercise was the determinant.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on November 11, 2011
at 04:13 AM

The only thing that has EVER tampered my appetite is primal with IF.

93ae9f2d376e5426e891a9b58d8302fa

(2936)

on November 11, 2011
at 02:03 AM

I never had a heart attack.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on November 11, 2011
at 04:12 AM

Travis, tubers don't help stabilize my appetite. I'm just saying my metabolism has been pretty much the same when I was a couch potato, an exercise junkie and everywhere in between. Some binges included large numbers of sweet potatoes with butter (not substitutes.) Go figure.

6
Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on November 11, 2011
at 12:55 AM

Personally, I doubt that this is a big factor, based on how many overweight runners show up on the MDA forum.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 11, 2011
at 12:57 AM

Do you have an example?

1f8384be58052b6b96f476e475abdc74

(2231)

on November 11, 2011
at 01:56 AM

the easiest way for me to gain weight is lift and increase activity. i become sedentary, i lose weight

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on November 11, 2011
at 01:03 AM

Here's one: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread35-276.html#post618494 See #2755 (overweight triathlete--not long-distance runner)

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 11, 2011
at 01:13 AM

I'm not really talking about overweight/obesity, just intolerance of carbohydrates.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on November 11, 2011
at 01:20 AM

Travis~ To me the most apparent sign of a broken metabolism is overweight--sorry if we are talking at cross purposes!

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on November 11, 2011
at 04:20 AM

Travis~ Gotcha!

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on November 11, 2011
at 01:14 AM

For sure, Cliff. But Travis is asking if lack of activity is causing broken metabolisms and I keep seeing overweight folks posting about how much activity they are doing (and were doing) and how they cannot lose body fat. I'm still with the 80% diet folks. And looking at people in wheelchairs who don't gain body fat (like Stephen Hawking) and many folks I've seen with cerebal palsy, makes me doubt that activity is a very big factor.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

but we have no idea how overweight they are or what there diet was before paleo or if there chronic training might be causing cortisol issues.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 11, 2011
at 01:15 AM

That overweight triathlete wouldn't fail a glucose tolerance test.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 11, 2011
at 01:25 AM

OK I edited the title to metabolic derangement because I'm specifically talking about insulin resistance/glucose intolerance.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on November 11, 2011
at 01:18 AM

Also, I have seen many accounts of totally sedentary or injured folks dropping all their excess body fat after going Primal/Paleo. It seems to me that their metabolisms must be working just fine in spite of the lack of movement. I suspect that healing their guts plays a huge role here.

5
1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on November 11, 2011
at 06:37 AM

Metabolic derangement will often degenerate into a sedentary lifestyle... When folks start craving carbs and living off chocolate bars they lose their energy. They get less and less active.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on November 11, 2011
at 07:16 PM

Nah...they ALWAYS got them a big gulp with a hamburger.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 11, 2011
at 12:54 PM

In my experience fat people live off hamburgers, sweets weren't that appealing when I was overweight. The funny thing is that if obese people tried to live off nothing but chocolate bars they would probably lose weight

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on November 11, 2011
at 07:35 PM

Nah, they got a 64oz big gulp and large fry with that hamburger. Plenty of sweets and sugar there.

4
Medium avatar

(10611)

on November 10, 2011
at 11:54 PM

I was pretty active when my blood sugar and A1C went berserk. Restriction of the high glycemic carbs brought the blood sugar down within a week. So as N=1 I tend to blame carb overload first and foremost. Obesity and inactivity probably made me more susceptible.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 11, 2011
at 12:04 AM

How active? What sort of things did you do?

Medium avatar

(10611)

on November 11, 2011
at 02:55 AM

Foot in mouth disease cliff...I've gone from casually walking a mile a day to around ten miles a day. I also spent a lot more time parked in front of a PC, and driving 5 hours at a shot, than I do now. Besides the walking I also bowl half a dozen games a week.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on November 11, 2011
at 12:13 AM

How are you pretty active yet inactive and obese at the same time?

3
3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on November 11, 2011
at 01:03 AM

Of course it s a contributing factor. It is not a singular causative factor.

1
Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on October 08, 2012
at 10:25 AM

Hmm, it would seem to me, like both more exercise & low-medium carb is the lifestyle template we are evolved for.

Some tribes do well with high carbs because they exercise a heck of alot, some less active people do well because they have lower carbs. So I can only agree to an extent.

This suggests to me, not an either or scenario, but a contigency. The level of activity, is linked to the amount of carbs you can tolerate optimally

(of course, if you feel you need them, for that said activity, ie peak anaerobic exercise, or for wellbeing based on your genes and n=1 --- humans in the ice age, and in various tribes do fine without any significant carbs, so it also follows with correct diet and adaption, not every1 needs them...).

Which is not radically different from what anyone else says about carbs, but perhaps a tiny bit less ambiguous, ie the carb tolerance and your activity is a direct 1 to 1 relationship.

You could try and imply that one or the other is solely responsible, but thats kind of obfiscating the facts. They both have an influence on insulin senstivity in studies, AND they both have a place in our likely evolution. Fructose consumption is another factor in studies. Heck, one can possibly tolerate a higher fructose consumption based on exercise too (Although i wouldnt bet my health on it, the one tribe that eats loads of honey and fruit IS seemingly free of metabolic syndrome due to their activity at least)

While I am breifly on the topic of VLC, its my understanding that protein and fat can both be made into glucose, and either fatty acids or glucose can power the muscle.

Can some1 explain then, why carbohydrates are needed for anaerobic exercise, or is it just the effeciency?

I seemed to be able the physically sprint fine on quite low carb -under 50-, not that I am VLC now....whats the difference, capacity/length of time?

I am confused as to what level of difference it makes, as it seems like my body can burn fat or carbs just fine as energy - I can swing from high carb to vlc with no symptoms, and back up to medium carb with no adjustment or noticable effects. Mind you I havent started really pushing sprints, or started lifting yet, just some sprinting and some distance walking, so perhaps it only kicks in with volume?

I just didnt notice any energy difference at all. If anything, I had more energy on a mostly fat diet....

1
46626407781919530c151c87215ceb21

(30)

on November 11, 2011
at 02:56 AM

A lot of it is caused by sedentary lifestyle.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 11, 2011
at 03:33 AM

There's a lot more to it than just weight gain.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on November 11, 2011
at 03:46 AM

[Dr Briffa](http://www.drbriffa.com/blog/) has a relevant post.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on November 11, 2011
at 04:20 AM

Yeah, I don't think exercise will make much of a difference if someone's nuked their hypothalamus with MSG for example, but it would still make them tolerate carbohydrates a lot better.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on November 11, 2011
at 03:18 AM

I'm disagreeing with you only because I've gained weight at the same rate regardless of my exercise level. It took the same number of months to put 50 pounds back on whether I was a couch potato or an exercise junkie.

0
26b7615ef542394102785a67a2786867

on February 18, 2013
at 05:32 PM

I think this is a valid question and I'm reading the studies now.

However, personally, my blood sugar/carbohydrate toleration issues (I have both hypo- and hyperglycemic issues, like my father) have not been solved by changing how much exercise I get, or by changing my diet - although I can certainly tolerate more carbs without usual ill effects when am able to 'burn them off' with activity. I'm extremely active (often do not stop moving for more than a few minutes for 16 hours a day - I wait tables, commute on my bike, come home and walk my dog, do yoga and run and go hiking and swimming in my free time). I weigh a whole 10 lbs more now than I did when I lived on donuts and was completely sedentary, and I'm still underweight. So much of it seems to be genetics (and epigenetics I'm sure, and prenatal and early childhood nutrition - but the point is, once we're adults, many of us are 'set' at or at least disposed to a certain composition or weight, and even drastic lifestyle changes don't often have big results).

I know so many people (coworkers mostly) who are nearly as active as I, eat less food as far as I can tell (a couple of them are even eating low-cal and low-carb!), and yet are normal weight to obese, usually with a high body fat %, and changing either takes a phenomenal effort - months of eating strictly, going to the gym for hours, on top of an already brisk lifestyle. They look at me in wonder - it really makes no sense. 3000 calories per day and I have a BMI of 17 and body fat % of 15-18% (I'm estimating this by my ridiculously ripped abs). I know I'm am outlier/freak, but it really drives home, to me, the fact that changing your body type/composition is extraordinarily difficult to do in a healthy, gradual way, for a lot of people. Prolonged starvation and cardio will work for weight loss - yes. Commmitted overfeeding (which feels awful and aggravates my digestive system, personally) combined with a heavy schedule of weight lifting will work for hardgainers. NEITHER is at all healthy for the human body in the short and long term. Eating a high-nutrient diet with little to no carbohydrate is the best solution for those who are disposed to have high body fat no matter their activity level.

0
7d46edca72c2f8347f65d7b734d1f1eb

on February 18, 2013
at 04:44 PM

Seems pretty simple to me that sedentary lifestyle would amplify any negative consequences of the over consumption of carbs....especially processed and non-paleo carbs. Lifestyle, activity level, stress level, diet, sleep, etc are all very much connected.

0
3491e51730101b18724dc57c86601173

(8395)

on February 18, 2013
at 04:36 PM

Looks like some spammers revived this thread, but I'd like to --ahem--weigh in.

I was a very thin child with a poor appetite. I was also extremely active. I played outdoors all day, walked and rode my bike for miles, and would gladly spend all summer in the public pool swimming like a fish. I was anything but sedentary. I also had the earliest signs of what developed into full blown "metabolic derangement" even then with reactive hypoglycemia.

By the time I hit puberty, still very thin and active, I had severe PCOS. Weight gain didn't show up until my mid-30's, when we were really messing with my hormones trying to conceive our first child. I was still quite active then.

Something was wrong with my metabolism from the beginning. I did not cause the metabolic derangement with laziness and sloth. That's what you are implying, that it must be the fat person's fault. I don't accept the blame, but I accept the responsibility of treating the underlying cause--metabolism, not sedentarianism.

0
D8e34821d22266a5f667611e9a4ea549

on November 11, 2011
at 12:57 AM

How much carbs where you consuming per day? What was the level and duration of physical activity per day?

-4
Daef3b52455247401f6c26a69b7af037

(-8)

on February 18, 2013
at 10:32 AM

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-4
Ed2f5c4523b24ab9d9e104e9bf906139

on October 08, 2012
at 09:55 AM

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