6

votes

Hashimoto's Disease: Excess Estrogen In Disguise?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created March 12, 2012 at 3:58 PM

It's possible this topic is just on my radar now in light of being recently diagnosed with hashi's, but there seems to be an influx of hashimoto's cases on Paleohacks lately.

Curious what other's think about Danny Roddy's latest article, Hashimoto's Disease: Excess Estrogen In Disguise? Parts of the article are a little over my head, but it certainly seems to describe my own predicament: hashimoto's thyroiditis combined with a severe hormone imbalance (almost zero progesterone and sky-high levels of estrogen).

A0d4481f4b568e4edc7d8c72102dcfc1

on November 01, 2012
at 11:30 PM

I've got Hashis and no estrogen dominance (tested)

Bdc6244bdbd664d2168a8e326018ffbe

(431)

on March 19, 2012
at 01:04 PM

But it sounds like most people on here with estrogen dominance DO have symptoms, but obviously I could be wrong.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on March 19, 2012
at 11:18 AM

Lol, you can not say you don't have estrogen dominance because you don't have the symptoms. I had a vitamin D deficiency but didn't have any of the symptoms, no bone problems whatsoever.

518bce04b12cd77741237e1f61075194

(11577)

on March 19, 2012
at 10:53 AM

It still stands that while estrogen exacerbates autoimmune conditions, it isn't a driving force behind it. Sorry my example was taken literally, that wasn't what I was going for.

Bdc6244bdbd664d2168a8e326018ffbe

(431)

on March 18, 2012
at 06:55 PM

What, you mean how do I not have estrogen dominance? Well, I have none of the symptoms.

518bce04b12cd77741237e1f61075194

(11577)

on March 18, 2012
at 05:24 PM

Sorry, I wasn't using a homosexual or transgendered man as a biological example, but as a illustrative example of someone who might have more "female" hormones to exasperate a condition, but don't have the underlying biological drive. It's an easy way to think about it.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 18, 2012
at 02:29 PM

Stress and toxins raise estrogen. The stress and toxins are the ultimate factor but its how they affect the hormones in the body that causes the problems.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 18, 2012
at 02:28 PM

It's not estrogen vs testoerone either it should be estrogen vs progesterone. Progestoterone is the female hormone, estrogen is a male hormone.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 18, 2012
at 02:26 PM

Jenny, homosexual men usually have higher testosterone. "Use of estrogen increases dementia and alzheimers disease incidence 2-3 times higer in woman than men. Men with alzheimers have higher levels of estroge than normal men(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16865684)."

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 18, 2012
at 02:20 PM

based on what??

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on March 18, 2012
at 08:23 AM

Sorry, I meant carbohydrates not sugar.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on March 18, 2012
at 05:04 AM

With regard to calcium, the Paleo position seems to be that calcium is important but calcium supplements are a poor way of absorbing calcium. Calcium supplements tend not to go where they're needed but end up in arteries, contributing to atherosclerosis. K-2 is supposed to direct the calcium to where they need to go

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on March 18, 2012
at 04:59 AM

How did Drs. Harris and Jaminet make sugar popular? Last time I checked, they were against sugar. Maybe you mean Dr. Peat?

52d317297010250b656f9e8ba4f6067e

(10)

on March 13, 2012
at 03:11 PM

My Hashimoto's diagnosis is what lead me on to the Paleo/Primal lifestyle in the first place. I've been lurking in the background of Paleohacks for about a year now.

518bce04b12cd77741237e1f61075194

(11577)

on March 12, 2012
at 08:49 PM

Hormones enhance the effect of autoimmune disorders in women, but they aren't the driving component. If you want to think of it this way, men with a more "feminine" hormonal composition, such as transgendered (biologically male) or homosexual men, show no jump in risk to get an autoimmune disorder, such as MS, but if they do get MS through their male genetics, the effects could be enhanced by having higher levels of estrogen so that they may have a more severe disorder, as they do not have as much testosterone to suppress the inflammation.

518bce04b12cd77741237e1f61075194

(11577)

on March 12, 2012
at 08:46 PM

Micro RNA's are encoded on the X chromosome (of which women have 2), which are associated with stronger immunity. Women (and other female mammals) are "better equipped" so to say, to fight of sepsis, infection, and trauma (think longer life span, recovery from post-birth etc). If part of an X chromosome gets "silenced", women have a back-up, whereas men just have the one. This means women fine-tune their immune system so that it is more powerful for most of their life, but can be effectively suppressed during pregnancy. Major reason why women have more autoimmune disorders.

De267f213b375efca5da07890e5efc25

(3747)

on March 12, 2012
at 06:33 PM

Hadn't heard that before. I presume you mean express? We're mostly the same. I read somewhere that 2/3 of known disease is immune mediated so it stinks to have an immune system which is more prone to failure :P

518bce04b12cd77741237e1f61075194

(11577)

on March 12, 2012
at 06:16 PM

There is also the inseparable fact that women code twice as much genetic material for immune response, because we have to suppress our immune system during pregnancy so need a pretty good "fine tuning" mechanism on it. It is not quite as simple as estrogen VS testosterone, but also dealing with different genetic components beyond the hormones circulating in our bodies. Adds some mud to the waters.

F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on March 12, 2012
at 05:30 PM

Really trying not to make a hairy eyeball joke here...

3eca93d2e56dfcd768197dc5a50944f2

(11697)

on March 12, 2012
at 04:59 PM

I agree about calcium, it's the No1 thing I don't agree with mainstream paleo.

De267f213b375efca5da07890e5efc25

(3747)

on March 12, 2012
at 04:47 PM

It would have been funnier if you'd written "udder" instead of "utter" :)

C56baa1b4f39839c018180bf63226f7d

(3499)

on March 12, 2012
at 04:31 PM

Dr. Clark of the Brain Based Blog claims that it's the #1 cause of thyroid disease in the US, so I'm not surprised to see. Also, I'm as yet undiagnosed but pretty sure that I have it too.

0242b468fe1c97997749db416c92e7ed

(4528)

on March 12, 2012
at 04:27 PM

As I said, it may just be on my radar lately because of my diagnosis, but it really does seem to be a "hot" topic in the paleosphere these days.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on March 12, 2012
at 04:01 PM

You're fast, Kimmie :) "there seems to be an influx of hashimoto's cases on Paleohacks lately" didn't notice that...

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on March 12, 2012
at 04:01 PM

You're fast, Kimmie :) *"there seems to be an influx of hashimoto's cases on Paleohacks lately"*

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on March 12, 2012
at 04:01 PM

You're fast, Kimmie :) "*there seems to be an influx of hashimoto's cases on Paleohacks lately*" didn't notice that...

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5 Answers

7
B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on March 12, 2012
at 04:43 PM

Danny Roddy is the only person that makes me doubt about a lot of paleo perceptions. I'm glad lean meats are now considered silly, and that Dr. Harris and Dr. Jaminet make sugar more popular, but there is still a list of things to think about :

"metabolic damage, fructose hysteria, fruit makes you fat, sucrose ruins your health, fish oil mega-dosing, calcium isn't important, avoidance of dietary salt, etc."

The amount of times I hear that calcium is not important freaks me out. It's supposed to be okay because vitamin D3 and other fat-soluble vitamins increase absorption. Partially true, but calcium is still of utter importance and we should think about it way more than we currently do.

Also, I agree with you there's a lot of thyroid talk lately. I hope all those with problems will take Danny Roddy's advice on how to reduce estrogen seriously, because they did help me (I now walk around in T-shirt the whole day because I'm just not cold) :

Protein (especially gelatin), orange juice, reducing endotoxin (carrot), consuming enough calcium (& VD,VA,VK), can all improve liver health, which handles excess estrogen.

As for scientifically analyzing the post, I'm definitely not the right person to do that. I love his website design btw. Nice, simple graphs and a good layout. Compare that to Dr. Kruse's blog ...

3eca93d2e56dfcd768197dc5a50944f2

(11697)

on March 12, 2012
at 04:59 PM

I agree about calcium, it's the No1 thing I don't agree with mainstream paleo.

De267f213b375efca5da07890e5efc25

(3747)

on March 12, 2012
at 04:47 PM

It would have been funnier if you'd written "udder" instead of "utter" :)

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on March 18, 2012
at 08:23 AM

Sorry, I meant carbohydrates not sugar.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on March 18, 2012
at 04:59 AM

How did Drs. Harris and Jaminet make sugar popular? Last time I checked, they were against sugar. Maybe you mean Dr. Peat?

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on March 18, 2012
at 05:04 AM

With regard to calcium, the Paleo position seems to be that calcium is important but calcium supplements are a poor way of absorbing calcium. Calcium supplements tend not to go where they're needed but end up in arteries, contributing to atherosclerosis. K-2 is supposed to direct the calcium to where they need to go

4
De267f213b375efca5da07890e5efc25

(3747)

on March 12, 2012
at 04:44 PM

Autoimmune disorders affect women at a rate of 5x compared to men in general so sex hormones have long been suspected as a cause of autoimmune disorders, including Hashimoto's. It is believed that both estrogen increases susceptibility and testosterone decreases it. In other words, both are believed to be involved independently. There is a trial underway in Boston using testosterone eye drops to see if it can help Sjogren's patients or just those with dry eye syndrome. I wouldn't be surprised if there are trials for other diseases as well but since women naturally need levels of hormones which promote autoimmunity the focus has been on localized treatments I think.

F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on March 12, 2012
at 05:30 PM

Really trying not to make a hairy eyeball joke here...

518bce04b12cd77741237e1f61075194

(11577)

on March 12, 2012
at 08:46 PM

Micro RNA's are encoded on the X chromosome (of which women have 2), which are associated with stronger immunity. Women (and other female mammals) are "better equipped" so to say, to fight of sepsis, infection, and trauma (think longer life span, recovery from post-birth etc). If part of an X chromosome gets "silenced", women have a back-up, whereas men just have the one. This means women fine-tune their immune system so that it is more powerful for most of their life, but can be effectively suppressed during pregnancy. Major reason why women have more autoimmune disorders.

518bce04b12cd77741237e1f61075194

(11577)

on March 12, 2012
at 06:16 PM

There is also the inseparable fact that women code twice as much genetic material for immune response, because we have to suppress our immune system during pregnancy so need a pretty good "fine tuning" mechanism on it. It is not quite as simple as estrogen VS testosterone, but also dealing with different genetic components beyond the hormones circulating in our bodies. Adds some mud to the waters.

De267f213b375efca5da07890e5efc25

(3747)

on March 12, 2012
at 06:33 PM

Hadn't heard that before. I presume you mean express? We're mostly the same. I read somewhere that 2/3 of known disease is immune mediated so it stinks to have an immune system which is more prone to failure :P

518bce04b12cd77741237e1f61075194

(11577)

on March 12, 2012
at 08:49 PM

Hormones enhance the effect of autoimmune disorders in women, but they aren't the driving component. If you want to think of it this way, men with a more "feminine" hormonal composition, such as transgendered (biologically male) or homosexual men, show no jump in risk to get an autoimmune disorder, such as MS, but if they do get MS through their male genetics, the effects could be enhanced by having higher levels of estrogen so that they may have a more severe disorder, as they do not have as much testosterone to suppress the inflammation.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 18, 2012
at 02:28 PM

It's not estrogen vs testoerone either it should be estrogen vs progesterone. Progestoterone is the female hormone, estrogen is a male hormone.

518bce04b12cd77741237e1f61075194

(11577)

on March 18, 2012
at 05:24 PM

Sorry, I wasn't using a homosexual or transgendered man as a biological example, but as a illustrative example of someone who might have more "female" hormones to exasperate a condition, but don't have the underlying biological drive. It's an easy way to think about it.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 18, 2012
at 02:26 PM

Jenny, homosexual men usually have higher testosterone. "Use of estrogen increases dementia and alzheimers disease incidence 2-3 times higer in woman than men. Men with alzheimers have higher levels of estroge than normal men(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16865684)."

518bce04b12cd77741237e1f61075194

(11577)

on March 19, 2012
at 10:53 AM

It still stands that while estrogen exacerbates autoimmune conditions, it isn't a driving force behind it. Sorry my example was taken literally, that wasn't what I was going for.

1
96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19413)

on March 19, 2012
at 10:35 AM

There's an easy way to tell. Alternatively take some iodine, and some DIM. DIM blocks estrogen. Iodine kick starts the thyroid (though in some cases, it can cause worse Hashimoto's.)

If the DIM improves symptoms, it was excess estrogen. If the iodine improves symptoms, it was the thyroid.

(But be sure you know your T3/T4 levels before you mess around with this.)

Supposedly, according to Ray Peat, aspirin also blocks estrogen, but since it can cause leaky gut, we should probably stay away from it.

1
E0250b1e6dc5ec1539ffb745042b4d80

(3651)

on March 12, 2012
at 04:53 PM

Correlation does not equal causation. Thyroid problems disrupt the endocrine system, and endocrine disruptions cause, contibute to, or are the result of thyroid problems. Stress is a factor, genetics, toxins, or maybe even bad medicine from well intentioned drs.

To pin it one one thing is pretty crazy.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 18, 2012
at 02:29 PM

Stress and toxins raise estrogen. The stress and toxins are the ultimate factor but its how they affect the hormones in the body that causes the problems.

0
Bdc6244bdbd664d2168a8e326018ffbe

(431)

on March 18, 2012
at 10:15 AM

Well, I admittedly didn't read the article, but I have Hashimoto's but distinctly not estrogen dominance. The end.

Bdc6244bdbd664d2168a8e326018ffbe

(431)

on March 19, 2012
at 01:04 PM

But it sounds like most people on here with estrogen dominance DO have symptoms, but obviously I could be wrong.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on March 18, 2012
at 02:20 PM

based on what??

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on March 19, 2012
at 11:18 AM

Lol, you can not say you don't have estrogen dominance because you don't have the symptoms. I had a vitamin D deficiency but didn't have any of the symptoms, no bone problems whatsoever.

Bdc6244bdbd664d2168a8e326018ffbe

(431)

on March 18, 2012
at 06:55 PM

What, you mean how do I not have estrogen dominance? Well, I have none of the symptoms.

A0d4481f4b568e4edc7d8c72102dcfc1

on November 01, 2012
at 11:30 PM

I've got Hashis and no estrogen dominance (tested)

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