-1

votes

Can we accept veganism as healthy transition till we find friedndly ways to farm meat for all!?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created May 27, 2011 at 9:31 PM

I just thought. Maybe a vegan lifestyle is a healthy transition for people and the planet. (mother earth). When we find more and more ways to have animals more and more ecological more people can eat this in balnce to mother earth.

If you eat fish, be cautious not empty the ocean by filling your stommache. If you eat animals you have to be cautious about rainforest in southamerica, about soymanipulation, about monsanto and agrobuisness, on health, on animal slaughtery, on

Can we accept veganism is a good way for a transition till we find a good place where we can have animal meat from animal friendly and humane raised animal!!!???

Also that veganism can be good for a transition to paleo diet. So you get more consous about the worth of food on a vegan diet and then you learn how to eat good quality meats, from good healthy happy raised cows and animals....

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on September 17, 2011
at 08:53 AM

its a coming andd going.you never realy now iff the destructionn of environment in the eend is more envvironmenttal frienddly?? who knows. in tthe firrst itts just a lost of liffespace. often new places attracct new ideas and new cultures and ethnicitys and peeople. so new ideas coming who toggether beettter solve problems like some stiffmindded old structural tradional sticking people. I also know the BBUND is making suchh thhings. i know there is a lot proggress in animal ccare. still tthere is sepration. of the human and the animal. you ....there is a lot crazyness hhere...

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 04, 2011
at 10:29 AM

when i see sthletes like durianrider or other vegan athlete being happy and alife. im totaly with you also the curelty in cattle industry is so sad. Thank you so much for your comment.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 03, 2011
at 12:40 PM

thank you for your wonderful comment. if you wanna write me a long email text. Im very thankful.Are you still vegan. i have a vegan friend who seem to be very healthy. i also like to remember to my vegan vegetarian periods. and the times where i less focused on [email protected](AT)sonnenkinder(DOTDOT)org

937163a301e4487f64b14982226ff75c

on June 19, 2011
at 05:10 PM

Whatevs, Mommy. :D

24fcc21452ebe39c032be6801d6bbadd

(9812)

on May 31, 2011
at 11:13 AM

That is too bad :( I was so impressed a couple years ago when my mom showed me one of her German newspapers, and there was a picture of a land bridge built over the Autobahn for animals to pass over; guess there is still progress to be made...

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 29, 2011
at 05:17 PM

a need for this. I worked at a circus. also there the animals were treated ok. Still suffered somehow. Where to draw the line. The famous berlin icebear died of braindamage, there is everywhere in domesticated world need for animalrights, especially when we look them away. I suggest you to google for "anna breytenbach" and animal spirit. "maybe if you google"animal slaughtery cruelity germany" or deutschland" i dont knowi think science maybe is much more cruel to animals than meat production. On the otherwisewe make , we force them to sacrifice their life for our life.we should be deeptouched

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 29, 2011
at 05:12 PM

One chicken farm close to where i lived was close through exposure of fotos animal rights activist shoot in the night. In bremen a university sciectist makes cruel experiences with monkeys brains, things mengele did to the jews in the death camps. You see there are realy animal cruelity in germany and there are also traditional and organic and animal friendly farming. There is also a lot pharmaceutical companies be sure they killed massive animals in developement of new products. Bayer, BASF, Rochee, Aventis, BerlinChemie. Be sure if there is a strong Animal defense league than there is also..

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 29, 2011
at 05:08 PM

jules the conditions are rather worse. not that wors than reported from the us. Germany is know beside high hygiene stnandard to lowest meat production cost in europe. What means germany is massive in mass farming. Also there is a lot of alternative farming hippies ecos, organic farming. People living in Alpian mountains have farms over centuries, some still try to keep it close to nature. Other have massive farms. We also of science on animal farming. There are very good universites on that in germany. So they try even in convential animal farming to be kind.

C61399790c6531a0af344ab0c40048f1

on May 28, 2011
at 04:58 PM

Only a 16 year old could say "I'm not bothered about my health" with such gusto!

C61399790c6531a0af344ab0c40048f1

on May 28, 2011
at 04:57 PM

Great answer - I totally agree.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 28, 2011
at 12:31 PM

I still notice that people improof health by getting vegan for a lifestyle and laso if you google a lot Nongovermentalorganisation supporting a plant based diet. And a lot people reort healin g from plant basde diet. A lot people report illness from meat based diet. Maybe you cant avoid to be included in a we. ITs up to you to judge and struggle with other ideas.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 28, 2011
at 12:28 PM

That is very sad. Still this question get quick some attention. I dont think its good to stay such blind. ITs up to you what you fight for. Be aware not to fight against something what might no thread. It also looks that people evilize somethings here. You see people how they improve health. Im not provegan and im not a vegan.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 28, 2011
at 12:23 PM

if i keep serious and i a also hang up with anarchprimitivist and greenanarchist. I rate your answer as paleo answer. populistic, suitable for paleo, quick to vote up, easy to digest. Im not pro aggriculture. How i said im with anarchprimitivist and if i support or question a vegan lifestyle its cause i see how blind meat consumprion will make more danger than pure vegan consumption for a while. I have seen a lot vegans craving and i have a lot vegans healthy. For a short period egans are much more healthy than meat eater. For long term meat is good addition. Im still sure its its blind.

B0b6928f9f7f39dadb11a0f1438e6354

(60)

on May 28, 2011
at 04:29 AM

I did say regarding meat.None of the vegans I know have a problem killing grains.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on May 27, 2011
at 11:37 PM

But the more agriculture there is, the more humans there will be. So far Malthus's theory hasn't panned out, but I don't see how we can sustainably farm plants for our ever-expanding numbers, much less animals. And as several people have noted below, the more land we dedicate to agriculture, the more wild habitat is lost. If concerns for "the planet" include compassion for other animals, I don't see how agriculture helps them.

A642b5bc75a36fdce13fbf290f0c85a7

(385)

on May 27, 2011
at 11:21 PM

Dexter, if there are no CAFOs or monoculture grains, then are you saying everyone would have enough meat to eat from pastured sources? If so, where did you hear this from because I have heard otherwise, mostly because there are simply so many humans on Earth.

Medium avatar

(19469)

on May 27, 2011
at 11:05 PM

Vegans forget that millions of animals die when wheat fields are threshed, corn is sprayed with pesticides, and forests are clear-cut for their GMO soy chips.

Medium avatar

(19469)

on May 27, 2011
at 11:02 PM

Sustainability and humane animal husbandry is one thing, veganism is something else entirely. Many third-world countries have had "veganism" imposed upon them through food "aid" that destroys their local farm economies and food security for the sake of securing profits for agribusinesses like Monsanto. Agribusinesses, and the complicit pocket politicians that support them, deserve our ire, but suggesting veganism as a solution to the problem of food security misses the mark. I think that we can do more by supporting local producers of food, animal and/or vegetable.

1568416ef28477d1fa29046218d83ddd

(6235)

on May 27, 2011
at 10:43 PM

You don’t see grains as a difference?

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17 Answers

15
06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on May 27, 2011
at 09:46 PM

Absolutely not. If you take all the millions of acres that have been tilled and raped to the detriment of mother earth and convert that land back to its state prior to raping for grains, there would be more than enough acreage to sustain the animals we eat. And this could be done without Concentrated Feeding Cattle Operations CAFO We would have happy cows and the vegans would have not a leg to stand on regarding animal treatment. Yet they are the ones that want to continue to eat non animal products from ground that has been raped.

Read the Vegetarian Myth by Lierre Keith. http://www.amazon.com/Vegetarian-Myth-Food-Justice-Sustainability/dp/1604860804/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262929974&sr=8-1

and Tom Naughton's critique: http://www.fathead-movie.com/index.php/2010/01/08/the-vegetarian-myth/

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on May 27, 2011
at 11:37 PM

But the more agriculture there is, the more humans there will be. So far Malthus's theory hasn't panned out, but I don't see how we can sustainably farm plants for our ever-expanding numbers, much less animals. And as several people have noted below, the more land we dedicate to agriculture, the more wild habitat is lost. If concerns for "the planet" include compassion for other animals, I don't see how agriculture helps them.

A642b5bc75a36fdce13fbf290f0c85a7

(385)

on May 27, 2011
at 11:21 PM

Dexter, if there are no CAFOs or monoculture grains, then are you saying everyone would have enough meat to eat from pastured sources? If so, where did you hear this from because I have heard otherwise, mostly because there are simply so many humans on Earth.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 28, 2011
at 12:23 PM

if i keep serious and i a also hang up with anarchprimitivist and greenanarchist. I rate your answer as paleo answer. populistic, suitable for paleo, quick to vote up, easy to digest. Im not pro aggriculture. How i said im with anarchprimitivist and if i support or question a vegan lifestyle its cause i see how blind meat consumprion will make more danger than pure vegan consumption for a while. I have seen a lot vegans craving and i have a lot vegans healthy. For a short period egans are much more healthy than meat eater. For long term meat is good addition. Im still sure its its blind.

8
Eedf46c82d0356d1d46dda5f9782ef36

(4464)

on May 27, 2011
at 10:27 PM

Last week I bought a 155lb pig, butchered and cleaned, with bones for my dogs and all the good organs - from a local farmer, from a farm I can visit. The animal was treated well while it lived, enjoyed roaming the pastures of southern Texas, ate good food during it's life, and was killed as humanely as possible.

I don't want anyone including me in your "we".

I don't speak for the planet. No one here does. I am not willing to compromise the my health, or the health of my wife, for a hypothetical "better for all" future that may never come to be.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 28, 2011
at 12:31 PM

I still notice that people improof health by getting vegan for a lifestyle and laso if you google a lot Nongovermentalorganisation supporting a plant based diet. And a lot people reort healin g from plant basde diet. A lot people report illness from meat based diet. Maybe you cant avoid to be included in a we. ITs up to you to judge and struggle with other ideas.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 28, 2011
at 12:28 PM

That is very sad. Still this question get quick some attention. I dont think its good to stay such blind. ITs up to you what you fight for. Be aware not to fight against something what might no thread. It also looks that people evilize somethings here. You see people how they improve health. Im not provegan and im not a vegan.

8
Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18452)

on May 27, 2011
at 09:51 PM

vegan lifestyle a healthy transition? dude you're gonna get eaten alive for suggesting this. remember most people here are not vegan. they will eat you too. lol.

3
1568416ef28477d1fa29046218d83ddd

(6235)

on May 27, 2011
at 09:48 PM

Well I guess it depends on what you see as the value of a paleo diet and the reasons for going vegan.

I have no use for people who go vegan for ethical reasons, that is valid for them but as I don't share their emotional basis for that decision it isn't valid for me.

I am similarly unmoved by arguments against agri-business that can't be shown to have an actual effect on my health. I hate the IP law issues, but that isn't about my health, it is about my politics and thus not something I would use as a rationale to others.

On the other hand if you go vegan in a search for a diet that makes your body work better then that makes it a valid transitional step or even an end phase if it work on an N=1 level.

What matters in food to me is actual nourishment. And politics give me indigestion.

1
127116e41acceee9f2f000076f8b788d

(477)

on May 30, 2011
at 02:09 PM

Support your local sustainable farmers..

1
C61399790c6531a0af344ab0c40048f1

on May 28, 2011
at 02:24 PM

I think that many vegans do want the same things as many paleos. http://paleohacks.com/questions/17404/are-paleos-and-vegans-coming-from-the-same-place#axzz1NegZGiZa

A diet that is healthy and considers animal welfare. But I truly believe that most (all?) vegans are completely misguided - mainly because they don't really consider where their food comes from and they have an overly simplistic view of animal welfare. The other thing that annoys me is the arrogant idea that humans can rise above their animalness by choosing not to give in to their carnivorous instincts. Vegans basically deny that we are a part of nature and the food chain. I am into many anarcho-primitivist ideas but being a vegan shouldn't ever be part of that because the whole idea is based on considering our hunter-gatherer heritage. It was the introduction of agriculture which initiated the slave/wage-based society so veganism cannot ever be an answer to that. Agriculture is part of (probably all of) the problem of overpopulation so won't be the solution. I agree with Dexter, if all land was farmed Joel Salatin style, so that it was truly productive and appropriate to its location, climate, etc., then it would certainly support more people eating 'properly' than many people currently believe. It is difficult to quantify because we have acres and acres of land producing unnecessary calories - in the form of grains and sugars which get turned into food that doesn't 'nourish' anyone - using fossil fuels to make parched lands productive. Senseless! And paleo eating IS the answer - we just haven't figured out the details yet.

1
Bdcb2101fd3f1853cfd645094d8ad086

on May 28, 2011
at 12:46 AM

You are on crack posting something like this here.

1
A642b5bc75a36fdce13fbf290f0c85a7

(385)

on May 27, 2011
at 11:02 PM

I would not recommend veganism to anyone, however I think this is a very worthwhile question to explore.

Intensive globalized factory farming is very destructive. It harms the soil, fills the atmosphere with greenhouse gases, can rapidly spread disease, and causes animals a great deal of suffering. This is bad? This is very bad.

Since this is so bad, many people make the difficult decision of giving up meat. By not eating meat, they will no longer be supporting the cruel environmental and moral evils of factory farms. I commend this intention, but this solution is ineffective because it unfortunately simplifies a very complex problem.

The problem is not simply factory farming meat, rather, it is globalized intensive agriculture as a whole. Field after field of monocultured crops are doing a great deal of harm to most of the environmental issues mentioned in the previous paragraph. And if one eats vegetable oils or soy/corn products, one is still supporting factory farming. The unused byproducts are often used as food for factory farmed animals, thus mainstream veganism is tied to the hip with mainstream meat consumption.

So really, to eliminate this problem, a vegan or nonvegan has to find all of their food from local environmentally-conscious farms.

Does anyone know of vegans who have excellent health and obtain all of their food from a local source? Now that would be impressive.

A book that heavily influenced my view on this topic is Simon Fairlie's Meat: A Benign Extravagance. He is an omnivore, but offers a very scholarly approach to the topic. I greatly enjoyed Lierre Keith's The Vegetarian Myth, but her style of writing blatantly makes vegans feel uncomfortable.

C61399790c6531a0af344ab0c40048f1

on May 28, 2011
at 04:57 PM

Great answer - I totally agree.

1
B0b6928f9f7f39dadb11a0f1438e6354

on May 27, 2011
at 10:38 PM

I think the only major difference regarding meat between vegans and paleo is the death of an animal. The vegans I know want the best life for an animal, natural feed/life , no stress/harm. I prefer a minimally invasive slaughter i.e. Temple grandin(wrong last name) or minimal stress. Personally, I don't think there will ever be enough vegans to make a financial difference to conventional farming. Spend your paleo dollars where it counts, at local farms that take care of their animals .

1568416ef28477d1fa29046218d83ddd

(6235)

on May 27, 2011
at 10:43 PM

You don’t see grains as a difference?

B0b6928f9f7f39dadb11a0f1438e6354

(60)

on May 28, 2011
at 04:29 AM

I did say regarding meat.None of the vegans I know have a problem killing grains.

Medium avatar

(19469)

on May 27, 2011
at 11:05 PM

Vegans forget that millions of animals die when wheat fields are threshed, corn is sprayed with pesticides, and forests are clear-cut for their GMO soy chips.

1
98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

on May 27, 2011
at 10:13 PM

Vegetarian yes. Vegan no. I respect anyone who is trying to eat intelligently and consciously and think that most who eat these two diets are doing just that. Trying just like me. I think it is easy to do a paleo vegetarian diet and I do that myself on many days. Vegan is very hard to pull off. I couldn't do it. I don't think it's necessary. To me that diet is more of a political/moral/ethical statement than a statement on health.

I am very much concerned for the well-being of all the animals of the planet and I do feel that I have sources for humanely raised animal proteins. I feel blessed to have them readily available and to be able to afford them but it the day came that I did not or could not I would most definitely go without.

1
E7be2ce38158357f5dacae07b43d1b29

on May 27, 2011
at 10:05 PM

Do whatever you're comfortable doing, but the "we" part of your question is probably not going to happen around here. The premise behind your question is probably not the reason most people are here.

0
937163a301e4487f64b14982226ff75c

on May 28, 2011
at 02:44 PM

I'm not bothered about my health, but I AM bothered about the planet and animal welfare. Veganism, which is supposed to address all three of those issues, affects all of them in the worst possible ways. Paleo is the ONLY way forward.

C61399790c6531a0af344ab0c40048f1

on May 28, 2011
at 04:58 PM

Only a 16 year old could say "I'm not bothered about my health" with such gusto!

937163a301e4487f64b14982226ff75c

on June 19, 2011
at 05:10 PM

Whatevs, Mommy. :D

0
13db020c06c22c2f8b129034ddc013e4

on May 28, 2011
at 12:00 AM

You talking health, oak0y, or you talking politics?

If you're talking health, which is the focus of this forum, I think you already know the dangers of veganism.

If you're talking politics, you seem more interested in the political bona fides of your food producers than in the actual health impact of the food. Poison from an angel will still kill you, and manna from the evil will still nourish.

0
24fcc21452ebe39c032be6801d6bbadd

(9812)

on May 27, 2011
at 11:03 PM

When I saw this pro-veganism question on my facebook feed, I just knew it was oak0y! I am going to keep doing what's best for me- sourcing the healthiest, happiest animals I can afford, and eating as optimally as I can; voting with our dollars is how we can make a difference. Seems like veganism has been a transitional step for a lot of us. Oak0y, you are German, if my memory serves me; I'm curious about how they grow livestock over there these days. My mom is from there also, but left in the early 70s...

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 29, 2011
at 05:08 PM

jules the conditions are rather worse. not that wors than reported from the us. Germany is know beside high hygiene stnandard to lowest meat production cost in europe. What means germany is massive in mass farming. Also there is a lot of alternative farming hippies ecos, organic farming. People living in Alpian mountains have farms over centuries, some still try to keep it close to nature. Other have massive farms. We also of science on animal farming. There are very good universites on that in germany. So they try even in convential animal farming to be kind.

24fcc21452ebe39c032be6801d6bbadd

(9812)

on May 31, 2011
at 11:13 AM

That is too bad :( I was so impressed a couple years ago when my mom showed me one of her German newspapers, and there was a picture of a land bridge built over the Autobahn for animals to pass over; guess there is still progress to be made...

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 29, 2011
at 05:12 PM

One chicken farm close to where i lived was close through exposure of fotos animal rights activist shoot in the night. In bremen a university sciectist makes cruel experiences with monkeys brains, things mengele did to the jews in the death camps. You see there are realy animal cruelity in germany and there are also traditional and organic and animal friendly farming. There is also a lot pharmaceutical companies be sure they killed massive animals in developement of new products. Bayer, BASF, Rochee, Aventis, BerlinChemie. Be sure if there is a strong Animal defense league than there is also..

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 29, 2011
at 05:17 PM

a need for this. I worked at a circus. also there the animals were treated ok. Still suffered somehow. Where to draw the line. The famous berlin icebear died of braindamage, there is everywhere in domesticated world need for animalrights, especially when we look them away. I suggest you to google for "anna breytenbach" and animal spirit. "maybe if you google"animal slaughtery cruelity germany" or deutschland" i dont knowi think science maybe is much more cruel to animals than meat production. On the otherwisewe make , we force them to sacrifice their life for our life.we should be deeptouched

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on September 17, 2011
at 08:53 AM

its a coming andd going.you never realy now iff the destructionn of environment in the eend is more envvironmenttal frienddly?? who knows. in tthe firrst itts just a lost of liffespace. often new places attracct new ideas and new cultures and ethnicitys and peeople. so new ideas coming who toggether beettter solve problems like some stiffmindded old structural tradional sticking people. I also know the BBUND is making suchh thhings. i know there is a lot proggress in animal ccare. still tthere is sepration. of the human and the animal. you ....there is a lot crazyness hhere...

0
Db4ad76f6f307a6f577e175710049172

on May 27, 2011
at 10:26 PM

Another thing, is that there's been a lot of chatter that a 'paleo' diet won't feed the world's population that we have today. Lierre Kieth mentioned this in her "Vegetarian Myth".

One thing that everyone going vegan would do is cause people to die off, and therefore reduce the population. Once the population is low enough, everyone could eat paleo. Means to an end I guess, but there's for sure better ways.

0
3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on May 27, 2011
at 10:04 PM

In the absence of catastrophes like asteroids smashing into the earth, animal population sizes are usually closely linked to the amount of available resources (food first, followed by a couple of other things). As our ability to grow and stockpile farmed food (grain, mostly) anywhere we want has increased, so has our population. Some people think this is a feature; others a bug. Either way, it's hard for me to see a vegan lifestyle as being "transitional" for the planet. The more people who eat farmed food there are, the more people there will be. I don't see a magical cut-off point at which we'll say, "Enough! Now we can start to eat meat."

(And I'm trying to leave aside entirely the question of whether I think a vegan lifestyle is healthy for most individuals. Strictly trying to take an ecological point of view, here -- the more habitat humans gobble up for agriculture, the more of us there will be, and the less habitat there will be for other animals.)

-1
41790d752c14f0e2672135b78587f83d

on August 03, 2011
at 01:49 AM

well people may find it interesting to hear from an actual vegan...as i have been for over ten years now. Healthy? you bet. currently i work as a landscaper and can run circles around my 20 years junior carnivore co-workers. everyone who meets me says they geuss my age to be at 10 years younger than i am at least. i see animals as individuals with their own personalities ( if you live with any you will notice this too ) not a group of unfortunate less-thans put on this earth to be hunted or manipulated by humans. if anything i believe we are to be caretakers of our animal friends, meaning, to ensure that they have an environment natural to them in which to live; meaning, we have to stop destroying all animal habitats for more suburbs, malls, whatever, and stop enslaving animals in cages! this is my instinct! to be aware of an animals being-ness and to give them love. (yes this means humans too!) to restore habitats for animals to feel comfortable, safe, and natural in which to live. this gives me joy! i hardly ever purchase food. most of my food comes from my back yard that i grew or that grows itself. i let the rabbits eat what they want, and i still have more than enough. when i do buy something, i buy it at the farmer's market from people who i know (and i know where they grow and how) or a store that sells items grown locally and organically.
there is alot of discussion about grains. i hardly eat any grains, here's a question. do you think adam and eve had to kill to eat? i don't think so. my creator gave me everything i need to survive on this planet, and to do it without killing. my creator gave me intelligence and emotions, and i use them to make my way in this world to the best of my abilities, and that is how i came to see animals as beings in their own right, with their own lives to live, and that is why eating them would be to me the same as eating a human. our species is the most senselessly and needlessly violent of all the animals, and i do not believe this is our nature...(perhaps it is the eating of the killing that perpetuates the killing?) people could learn much from giving animals our full awareness and compassion.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 03, 2011
at 12:40 PM

thank you for your wonderful comment. if you wanna write me a long email text. Im very thankful.Are you still vegan. i have a vegan friend who seem to be very healthy. i also like to remember to my vegan vegetarian periods. and the times where i less focused on [email protected](AT)sonnenkinder(DOTDOT)org

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on August 04, 2011
at 10:29 AM

when i see sthletes like durianrider or other vegan athlete being happy and alife. im totaly with you also the curelty in cattle industry is so sad. Thank you so much for your comment.

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