21

votes

Paleo guru credibility . . . Jack Kruse suspended by neurosurgery organization?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created May 04, 2012 at 11:50 PM

I realize that a lot of people will groan at the sight of another Kruse question, but I think this might be important information to share. Today Carbsane posted a blurb from the American Assoc. of Neurological Surgeons website. It's about Dr. Kruse being suspended from the organization:

"John J. Kruse, MD ??? Six-month Suspension. The Board concluded that Dr. Kruse gave false testimony in a deposition regarding the size of pedicle screws used in surgery by another neurosurgeon. There were several other matters which, while not the basis for the suspension recommendation, were causes for concern."

So here's my question: how much does this news damage Dr. Kruse's credibility? To what standards of behavior should we hold our Paleo gurus, particularly MDs?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 21, 2012
at 10:51 AM

Hey all you Kruse fans! So where's your guru now?

2507b557331c8a674bc81197531e609a

(4994)

on May 08, 2012
at 07:32 AM

I understand fully the legal implications. I am questioning a person's personal responsabilty as a HUMAN when they have been and are giving people medical advice over the internet. You are more than welcome to look at the conversation and make your own mind up at the tone and his attitude towards his followers. I think it's a sad and horrible world we live in when princibles are based only on legislation. How about having personal responsibilty to be clear to the people who are so obviously following your advice?

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 07, 2012
at 10:29 PM

Boo................

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 07, 2012
at 10:16 PM

Paul is no quack. Nor is he a "hack". I disagree with what he believes in many ways. The difference is this man will alter his thinking presented with new evidence. Show me wrong on that, I'll change my own mind.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on May 07, 2012
at 10:08 PM

Closing this to eliminate any suspicion of unfairness. Let's go back to discussing other topics.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 07, 2012
at 09:26 PM

Matt: Are you for real? Sanction from this society is ANYTHING BUT "rumor" ... Do you think they took this lightly?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 07, 2012
at 09:11 PM

It's called Parody!

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 07, 2012
at 09:09 PM

Have you ever seen Saturday Night Live? The Daily Show? Better yet The Colbert Report? It's called Parady! WOW! How about Seinfeld?

Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on May 07, 2012
at 09:05 PM

In your other post on this thread, you told people to "stop the hate." Now you're wanting to literally create a trial court for the purpose of putting Kruse on trial? What's next from you, Shah?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 07, 2012
at 09:03 PM

And I know you think you don't" hate" Jack, but that's exactly what Rick Santorum says about his "objective"-not hateful" views on gays/lesbians. The emotions override reason, especially stirred up by GOP or PH "mob mentality". -Shah78 PH-ACLU

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on May 07, 2012
at 07:43 PM

Better notify all the professional organizations of all the wacky things I've ever said on the internet then... not much else needs to be said, pro-Kruse folks are still going to like him, anti-Kruse folks are going to use this to validate their opinion of him, I don't think much of his ideas, but indifferent to him being in the community and I can't say that this little blurb about him has changed much.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on May 07, 2012
at 07:25 PM

Not ignore, just don't sit him on a pedestal. Lots of PH'ers rank above him in terms of knowing their shit.

F2f559fe327007fd064a0f5bd79d6278

(156)

on May 07, 2012
at 07:22 PM

@Matt: I can't tell if you're joking, but all I said was that was it's trivial to think of circumstances where a pedicle screw size could be pivotal. I'm not aware of any reason to think Kruse would dispute this.

863fbe3ea7cacba9a77b19a09bf445cf

on May 07, 2012
at 05:24 PM

Obviously there are politics in professional organizations. There are also people in them who care genuinely about protecting their profession and the public. I don't think anyone here is condemning Dr. Kruse based on a "sound bite." People are questioning his credibility because that "sound bite" was, in fact, a public censure by his peers that comes on the heels of months, if not years, of questionable behavior (e.g., making exaggerated or false claims on internet message boards).

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on May 07, 2012
at 04:52 PM

You obviously underestimate the influence of politics in these types of organizations. While I am not a member of any medical societies, the professional societies are I am a member of are all plagued with politics. My philosophy is to keep my head down and out of controversy, avoiding the politics altogether. It's not surprise that someone like Quilt (as controversial as he is) draws some ire from the powers that be. Again, so many here are quick to condemn Quilt based on what amounts to a sound bite. The reality of it is that neither you nor I really know why he's been suspended.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on May 07, 2012
at 04:49 PM

You ignore Paul Jaminet?

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on May 07, 2012
at 04:46 PM

Ignore the quacks, or point out how stupid their positions are; that's what the "community" needs to do. It doesn't need to run smear campaigns and resort to ad hominem attacks. I'm more than happy to ignore Kruse's opinion (just as I don't pay any attention to Jaminet, Roddy or Peat...) If more folks just ignored him or countered his lunacy (which you've done so well in the past), that would be the solution.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on May 07, 2012
at 04:40 PM

@Evelyn: Well, the problem is there's a bajillion comments here now about it without really knowing the facts. (I guess we have you to thank for that?)

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 07, 2012
at 03:59 PM

@Matt: See above. Such a censure would ruin any possible career for Jack as an expert witness. At the risk of being sued for libel I doubt highly this was politically motivated or a Martha Stewart thing.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 07, 2012
at 03:57 PM

@Melissa -- why's a cutie like you dating idiots for anyways ;-) Shah, based on the circumstances of the suspension -- lying on a deposition -- the suspension is NOT a badge of honor. It's a badge of disgrace, and based on the potential ramifications of such a charge, I doubt highly his peers take such public censure lightly. Shame.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 07, 2012
at 03:48 PM

Right on Sam. As Plaleo people we don't belive a word a Brain Surgeon says about health , until they censure Kruse. Then they are fucking geniuses.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 07, 2012
at 03:25 PM

Let me say, I've always enjoyed your ph name CC. But I dare say Jerzy Kosinki would side with me on this issue! The "real" Chauncey Gardner was an example of an organization making a mountain out of a real dumb ass"mole hill". In Kruse" case its the opposite. He's rocking the boat and needs to be punished.

863fbe3ea7cacba9a77b19a09bf445cf

on May 07, 2012
at 03:07 PM

That info helps put your answer in context.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 07, 2012
at 03:01 PM

I have never seen any professional, political,religious,acedemic oranization et al.that I would join or care if I were tossed out of. Talk about neolithic bull shit. I once tried to "disjoin" the Amherst College Alumni Association ,but it involved too much "paperwork".

863fbe3ea7cacba9a77b19a09bf445cf

on May 07, 2012
at 02:36 PM

I've often wondered what constitutes "medical advice" on the internet. On the MDA leptin reset thread, at least, Dr. Kruse offered very specific recommendations about what labs people should have done, as well as interpretations of their lab results.

863fbe3ea7cacba9a77b19a09bf445cf

on May 07, 2012
at 02:33 PM

I've often wondered what constitutes "medical advice" on the internet. On the MDA leptin reset thread, at least, Dr. Kruse went offered very specific recommendations about what labs people should have done, as well as interpretations of their lab results.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 07, 2012
at 02:32 PM

In my experience, doctors stick together. They realize that censuring another doctor, particularly publicly, makes them all look bad. Either way, I don't think this is a real question, I think it should be closed.

863fbe3ea7cacba9a77b19a09bf445cf

on May 07, 2012
at 02:24 PM

@Matt, no, I'm actually not intimately familiar with the inner workings of the AANS. and I never claimed to be. And you clearly aren't. The AANS is a professional society, not a licensing board. So Dr. Kruse was censured by a group of his peers. Should we give a flip about what licensing boards have to say? I do. And Dr. Kruse should as well, as his ability to practice medicine is up to the state board.

863fbe3ea7cacba9a77b19a09bf445cf

on May 07, 2012
at 02:18 PM

I don't know what your profession is, shah78, but if you were publicly censured by your peers for lying under oath, would you wear that as a badge of honor? If so, it's pretty clear that we're not going to agree on much of anything.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on May 07, 2012
at 01:14 PM

@Melissa, board are usually quite political. If you irritate somebody, it's very easy for a vocal connected few to make one's life a living hell. That he's be suspended by a licensing board doesn't really mean much to me - it could easily be personal vendettas as much as a legitimate concern.

870fdea50f2a9f1cd2890c8e22549300

(2056)

on May 07, 2012
at 12:42 PM

Oh, and if you're hired as an expert witness, part of your JOB is to know the facts of your case. There's a distinction between "erroneous" (mere ignorance) and "false" (deliberate) and to be censurable Kruse's testimony would have to fall into the latter category.

870fdea50f2a9f1cd2890c8e22549300

(2056)

on May 07, 2012
at 12:38 PM

It wouldn't be hearsay if he had actual knowledge of the size of the screws. If he was testifying about the contents of medical records, it would be part of the foundation of the opinion he was rendering as an expert. For all we know the length of the screws was a critical issue in the case.

9f54852ea376e8e416356f547611e052

(2957)

on May 07, 2012
at 12:37 PM

Carly doesn't get it, and raydawg has it right. I believe Jack Kruse is an MD, and in the US it means that he can and will be held liable for any ill effects his advice results in. Him saying he doesn't give advice over the internet is him covering his ass so that lawyers are less likely to have a case against him. Don't blame Jack for the failures of your laws and litigious society.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 07, 2012
at 12:31 PM

Then let my try again.I could care less if the Quilt got sanctioned by a bunch of tight assed MD's. You can imagine how tight the asses are of a bunch of brain surgeons! He throws the finger at his profession and they push back. Ever hear of the story about the guy who tossed the bird to another group of Scribes and Pharises a few (thousand)years ago . You guys are so eager to toss him out of "PaleoWoerld", can you imagine the politics involved with a bunch of BrainSurgeons? So my answer:I don'tcare if he got suspended.He should wear it as a badge of honor!

863fbe3ea7cacba9a77b19a09bf445cf

on May 07, 2012
at 12:22 PM

Your answer doesn't address the question, shah78, which is about whether Dr. Kruse's suspension from AANS damages his credibility in the paleo community. And again (I guess it can't really be said enough), nobody is "hating" on Dr. Kruse. Some of us have perfectly legitimate concerns about his credibility.

24fcc21452ebe39c032be6801d6bbadd

(9812)

on May 07, 2012
at 12:05 PM

Ehh, I give a flip about surgical errors. Just because this is a western medical association doesn't mean we shouldn't give a flip. I disagree with a lot of what the FDA and USDA do, but that doesn't mean they are 100% BS.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 07, 2012
at 11:43 AM

Matt, your point is taken. This is a diverse community that doesn't even have a singular definition of "paleo" so it's hard to say. The community as a whole gets to in a way by frequenting blogs, attending conferences, etc. But including quacks into the fold will harm the community -- ESPECIALLY if the goal is mainstream acceptance.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 07, 2012
at 11:40 AM

Jeez raydawg, it's not the premium content for cryin' out loud!! I don't have a problem with it, but Kurt & Emily have both discussed the problems with giving medical advice on the internet. The problem with Kruse is his credibility, and lying on a deposition is pretty serious stuff. What else has he lied about? I'm just providing information for folks to consider before wasting their money.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 07, 2012
at 11:36 AM

@raydawg: I think the Cooksey thing is problematic for him because he was handing out business cards at a meeting. Not defending the ensuing witchhunt, but if it's the law then it's the law.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 07, 2012
at 11:33 AM

@WCC Paul: I don't think a professional organization would censure someone for lying because they were looking for a reason to do so. That's lawsuit fodder for Jack.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 07, 2012
at 11:31 AM

Dude, I'm a neurosurgeon. Who has been suspended from his professional organization for lying in a deposition. That's serious stuff. I don't know about other PH'ers, but suspension from one's professional organization for any reason is not "badge of honor" type stuff.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on May 07, 2012
at 11:01 AM

@Ambimorph how many potential paleo people come to paleo through Kruse? I can't imagine it's all that many. Heck, I only found him via PH!

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on May 07, 2012
at 10:20 AM

Let's not turn Paleo into a religion. Please!

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on May 07, 2012
at 10:18 AM

Well, let's see, he gave testimony that was incorrect about the size of screws used by another doctor. So, why doesn't that testimony count as hearsay? If I heard you say that six months ago you had a rib eye steak, and it actually turned out you really had prime rib, and I testified that "to the best of my knowledge" you had a rib eye, but then someone pulled the restaurant receipt, would I really be giving false testimony based on _my_, unknown to me incorrect knowledge?

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on May 07, 2012
at 10:15 AM

Or for example, when a victim of diabetes writes a blog about it which falls foul of a certain state's laws and he's sued by their medical association (or was that mafia) unless he takes his blog down.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on May 07, 2012
at 10:10 AM

Art De Vany has a paid site, and I paid him $40 for access - I don't see many people complaining about him as vociferously as they do Kruse. Both Mark Sisson and Robb Wolf have advertising on their site for their books. Chris Kresser sells various programs that he advertises on his site. If folks don't have a problem with those, they shouldn't with Kruse's.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on May 07, 2012
at 10:06 AM

Do you know any doctor that's allowed to diagnose you and give you advice over the internet? They can certainly tell you general things, but they can't give you specific advice unless they see you in person - and if they do, you fall under confidentiality at that point.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on May 07, 2012
at 01:44 AM

Seriously, deleting my comment that PHers are getting a bit hateful? Spiteful? Cranky? You don't have to like Quilt (and I certainly don't think his ideas are worth anything), but can't we just be respectful?

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on May 07, 2012
at 01:41 AM

@Not James, really? With your PhD from Google U, you're questioning a practicing neurosurgeon?

4ec0fe4b4aab327f7efa2dfb06b032ff

(5145)

on May 07, 2012
at 01:28 AM

If he's got some loose screws, maybe it's good for his peers to give him a hard time.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on May 07, 2012
at 12:47 AM

Jack is a nickname for John. Until recently it virtually always referred to a John.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on May 07, 2012
at 12:45 AM

Actually, I think there are a non-trivial number of newcomers to paleo being turned off by him before really getting started. That's not the same as the entrenched leaving, but still a sorry situation.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on May 07, 2012
at 12:43 AM

if he were censured for perjury then we might have cause for concern. So I appreciate your spirit of self-criticism, but I think you've missed an important distinction. Because Kruse was censured for lying. That said, it would not surprise me in the least if organizations like this found little excuses to take someone down for other, unrelated reasons. And maybe that's what's going on here -- and what you have also implied. So there I agree with you. But I guess we'll have to wait and see.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on May 07, 2012
at 12:39 AM

"Uncritical acceptance of the opinion of a national health/professional organization. In other circumstances, this would be a badge of honor. If an MD or RD was suspended from their respective professional organizations for advocating a Paleo diet, they'd be heros in this community, and for all we know the "other...causes for concern" might be Kruse's advocacy of a Paleo diet, as well." Well, there's a distinction to be made: If one of these organizations censured Kurt Harris for "unorthodox nutritional beliefs," then yes, we would be up in arms. But [Continued]

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on May 07, 2012
at 12:39 AM

"Uncritical acceptance of the opinion of a national health/professional organization. In other circumstances, this would be a badge of honor. If an MD or RD was suspended from their respective professional organizations for advocating a Paleo diet, they'd be heros in this community, and for all we know the "other...causes for concern" might be Kruse's advocacy of a Paleo diet, as well." Well, there's a distinction to be made: If one of these organizations censured Kurt Harris for "unorthodox nutritional beliefs," then yes, we might be up in arms. But [Continued]

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on May 06, 2012
at 11:59 PM

@Chauncey, but you do realise that the kangaroo court beating down Dr. Kruse is the same type of organization that fights tooth and nail to keep alternative medicines/diets (paleo perhaps) down, right? Should we really give a flip what these nonsense licencing boards say?

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 06, 2012
at 11:28 PM

Perhaps you don't mean it to be but it feels like disdain to me. And not just me. Why you think "us" is a very small group escapes me. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. We are the vast majority in the paleo community. Of this you can be certain. If you want to continue to stir the pot perhaps you could first take some time to understand the history and perhaps even some of the facts of the case? It's all very easy to find for someone with anything remotely resembling an open mind and no agenda of his own to follow.

4bd765bafe9640f90b40b2d3ca9a25a6

on May 06, 2012
at 11:12 PM

It's becoming apparent that "Paleo" is becoming more of a religion ("excommunicated") to some than a mind altering adventure that it once was. Kruse is as strange and exciting to me today as Sisson & Wolf were 4+ years ago.

F0a3e3f17d9a740810ac37ff2353a9f3

(3804)

on May 06, 2012
at 10:51 PM

"Disdain" is too strong a word, and "us" is a very small group, but you're right about one thing: Most PH'ers seem to be reasonable, intelligent people.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on May 06, 2012
at 10:21 PM

Who's to say who can and cannot speak about/for/of paleo?

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on May 06, 2012
at 10:16 PM

Amazing how nasty the PH gaggle is... voting to close.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on May 06, 2012
at 09:58 PM

Sorry, should've said, a statement forthcoming.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on May 06, 2012
at 09:58 PM

@Evelyn, my understanding (I think Melissa mentioned it) is that there is a statement from Paleo leaders on the Kruse sitch?

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on May 06, 2012
at 09:55 PM

@Kamal, if you're a doc who hasn't had one, you're definitely in the minority. That's what scares me about this, that people think this one censure means anything. It doesn't. Medicine is complex, it's fraught with red tape, and things like this that get reported are half-assed. So this remains an interesting lead, and I continue to say: Sit tight, kiddos. More to come.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on May 06, 2012
at 09:50 PM

Truthiness, my point was about folks who are trying to discredit Paleo from the outside, not folks from within. I hope no one out there is looking for an excuse to leave Paleo and Jack Kruse does it for them. Sorry if that wasn't clear. But for doctors, Paleo is not harmless. Emily Deans has talked about how the stakes are higher for those with MDs. It can be considered as falling outside the "standard of care" and doctors could be censured (as Kruse was over the screw) or lose lawsuits based on it. Sad, but true.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on May 06, 2012
at 09:45 PM

@Not James, exactly. Not knowing the context makes it a bit irresponsible on our part to speculate. I agree it could be serious, it might not be. Hard to know.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 06, 2012
at 08:38 PM

Honestly Sam I think you just haven't' been around here long enough to understand. Jack seems to be gone from PH now so you won't get to witness what many of us have over the past year so it will probably always be hard for you to understand. Consider yourself one of the lucky ones. I hope you stick around long enough to get to know some of us who are not fans of Jack and perhaps you will see that most of us are intelligent, reasonable people who love this community and have just had enough. Right now your disdain for us is quite palpable. I hope that changes one day.

Dbd1e8fad5d4b47409d84bd6610020d5

(368)

on May 06, 2012
at 08:08 PM

I'm very wary of MD's as well. I've been misdiagnosed far too many times for my comfort and there is often "god complexes" involved as well. (That's not to say that there aren't doctors that I have liked and respected, it's just that they are few and far between.)

Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on May 06, 2012
at 03:44 PM

If the Loon is a "her," then I agree to the proposed battle in the octagon.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 06, 2012
at 03:34 PM

but folks trusting community leaders to somewhat vet the "gurus". The leaders are failing the community here. Badly.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 06, 2012
at 03:33 PM

Eh ... I'm not into gurus, but let's face it, we can't all be experts in every field. We have to rely on someone else more often than we care to. If I were to look for advice in something I have no training in, I'd do my best to vet the person's reputation/background/track record. But there are only so many hours in a day. So that Jack has been keynote speaking at PaleoFX, I think he's doing both an kickoff speech and a presentation on the LC Cruise (sets sail today) and will be on a panel about starches in August AHS, I'd say it's not "dumb" people following "blindly", but folks ... TBC

F2f559fe327007fd064a0f5bd79d6278

(156)

on May 06, 2012
at 01:51 PM

From a very quick Google search, using the wrong screw size could be very serious, e.g., perforating something by using one that's too long, mixing adult and pediatric kit, using an adult-sized screw in a pediatric patient, etc. I have no idea what the context is here, though.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on May 06, 2012
at 01:13 AM

The Loon is a "her" :)

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on May 06, 2012
at 01:12 AM

Yes you are. Read the Paleohacks FAQ more closely.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on May 06, 2012
at 01:10 AM

@KarenP-- IT'S NOT A TUMOR!!!! By that Arnold reference, I'm referring to the dissimilarity between this issue and a malpractice suit. You don't get suspended by your peers for losing a malpractice suit. At least two very esteemed docs on my floor lost malpractice suits in the past few years, that I know of.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on May 05, 2012
at 09:57 PM

@Kamal, perhaps. I've just seen far worse when it comes to medical malpractice suits. Doctors lose some AMAZING cases, even cases where they never saw the patient. So nothing surprises me anymore. Needless to say, Kruse is on their radar and we haven't heard the last of this.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 05, 2012
at 08:31 PM

I find baffling and insulting these people who are so completely unable to see the issues at hand. What is the proper reply to "haters gonna hate." Why is it so hard for some of you to understand that those of us who are pointing out the problems with Jack and his shenanigans are acting out of love for this community and not hate for anyone. You want us to just ignore the big mess that's been created here? Now that would be what I would call hateful. Perhaps those of you who are so upset to see the truth exposed are the ones who need to delete yourselves and go to Jack's forum to find peace.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 05, 2012
at 08:24 PM

People like you Loon seem to be completely unable to see the issue which I find completely baffling and disrespectful. How hard is it to understand that standing on principle is an act of love not hate. I don't hate this man. Quite frankly I don't care enough about him to hate him. I simply want people to see the truth of the situation. I love the paleo community and above all else I love fat people who are searching for answers and I have experienced first hand the damage Jack has caused by actually turning away from Paleo because of his highly unpaleo-like talk.

8496289baf18c2d3e210740614dc9082

(1867)

on May 05, 2012
at 07:05 PM

Maybe they're just the wrong *size* screws ...

Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on May 05, 2012
at 06:57 PM

I'll vote this back up to even-steven. Loon has as much a right to his opinion as anyone else, though I don't like that "delete yourself" stuff.

Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on May 05, 2012
at 06:54 PM

I was joking. It's a quote, though I admit that I did not give proper attribution. :( All that notwishstanding, I ain't battling no one in no octagon.

40b065644e95a090f6a41808303773ae

(450)

on May 05, 2012
at 05:42 PM

Nice and confusing then ;) Thanks for the clarifications!

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 05, 2012
at 04:45 PM

I'm quitting paleo because of this!

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 05, 2012
at 03:43 PM

LOL. "Haters gonna hate" right? It's a mean cruel world out there Wayne now isn't it? Hilarious.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 05, 2012
at 03:40 PM

Amen! Jack DOES, in fact, speak for paleo because we have allowed it. That's my big issue with him. I want him excommunicated so that we can all go back to talking about good food and good habits instead of starfish and bags of ice. Just because someone advocates a paleo diet does not mean the rest of his/her ideas fit or are appropriate to integrate into the wider template of health that is advocated. Please let this event help our "leaders" to get some chutzpah and actually lead for a change instead of acting out of fear because they mistakenly think Jack has more power than they do.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on May 05, 2012
at 03:39 PM

Thanks for clarifyin'.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on May 05, 2012
at 02:52 PM

Loon- you can flag the answer for moderation attention, and a gaggle of moderators will weigh in. Outside of that, you and Anonymous Chump will have to battle it out inside the Octagon.

870fdea50f2a9f1cd2890c8e22549300

(2056)

on May 05, 2012
at 01:28 PM

Hang on. He was acting as an expert witness. Not a question of taking a bullet for a patient, but money for his testimony. Questioning conventional wisdom is not the same thing as providing false testimony about an objective fact (the size of the screws actually used).

870fdea50f2a9f1cd2890c8e22549300

(2056)

on May 05, 2012
at 01:12 PM

Hang on. From the facts as presented, it appears that he was an expert witness. It wasn't a question of taking a bullet for a patient, but money for his testimony.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 05, 2012
at 01:02 PM

I didn't see anyone quitting Paleo over this either. Huh??

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 05, 2012
at 01:01 PM

Loon, the fact of the matter is that most people do not have the education (note I didn't say intelligence) to critically scrutinize what many of these respected "authorities" say to pick fact from fiction. Delete yourself? Consider that being against quackery from someone like Jack is also being FOR honest dissemination of helpful information.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 05, 2012
at 12:57 PM

Yes, there can be no mistake there. Jack even posts as "john" on Blogger blogs.

870fdea50f2a9f1cd2890c8e22549300

(2056)

on May 05, 2012
at 12:27 PM

Same guy: http://www.vitals.com/doctors/Dr_John_J_Kruse.html

863fbe3ea7cacba9a77b19a09bf445cf

on May 05, 2012
at 10:56 AM

There's no hatred. But am I interested in whether one of the most visible doctors in the paleosphere is a competent, ethical practitioner? Yes.

2507b557331c8a674bc81197531e609a

(4994)

on May 05, 2012
at 08:46 AM

It's not hatred, it's warranted concern.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on May 05, 2012
at 08:22 AM

I have dated a doctor who was a total idiot and even he didn't get suspended. It's pretty easy to get sued, but if other doctors suspend you, you've got a problem.

863fbe3ea7cacba9a77b19a09bf445cf

on May 05, 2012
at 05:13 AM

Loon, I don't think I (or anyone else) is arguing that you shouldn't think for yourself. The fact is, many of us get information from "authorities" like Kruse, Rosedale, Deans, Harris, etc. And how much stock we place in their recommendations has something to do, I think, with their behavior as medical professionals. As for your 3rd sentence, feel free to clarify where your ire is coming from, as it's not clear to me.

863fbe3ea7cacba9a77b19a09bf445cf

on May 05, 2012
at 05:11 AM

Loon, I don't think I (or anyone else) is arguing that you shouldn't think for yourself. The fact is, many of get information from "authorities" like Kruse, Rosedale, Deans, Harris, etc. And how much stock we place in their recommendations has something to do, I think, with their behavior as medical professionals. As for your 3rd sentence, feel free to clarify where your ire is coming from, as it's not clear to me.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on May 05, 2012
at 04:52 AM

Karen- While this is all speculation, I would imagine that it's not a "tiny detail". My neurosurgery resident friend says that being suspended by the AANS is quite bad, and they take this expert testimony stuff pretty seriously depending on the issue. But I do agree, the "There were several other matters which, while not the basis for the suspension recommendation, were causes for concern." part is way more interesting.

76026e8ef496039d5075440ff731aa0d

(5386)

on May 05, 2012
at 04:50 AM

Sorry WCC, I should have answered directly to the following "No, I agree. But it sure would get interesting if folks used him as an example to discredit Paleo in general. I'm imagining the headlines now about a doc being stripped of his license to practice because of Paleo." It raised a question at least to me and I agree some Paleo haters would grasp at any straw if it meant tarnishing or embarrassing anyone who follows Paleo. Again, sorry for any confusion. Truth.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on May 05, 2012
at 04:39 AM

i vote to delete this answer

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on May 05, 2012
at 04:14 AM

Honestly confused, T.Inc, and not trying to cause trouble: Did anyone imply that they were going to quit paleo because of this? Or you thought someone might potentially do that?

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on May 05, 2012
at 03:17 AM

No, I agree. But it sure would get interesting if folks used him as an example to discredit Paleo in general. I'm imagining the headlines now about a doc being stripped of his license to practice because of Paleo.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on May 05, 2012
at 03:14 AM

Having not read his specific case, I really wouldn't make much of the screw. I'm married to a doc, and medical cases are full of contradictions and legal wrangling. It could've been that he was testifying on behalf of the patient and misspoke or it could've been that he was testifying in defense and forgot. It's such a tiny detail that it makes me think the board is trying to put him on notice for larger concerns. That's my point.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on May 05, 2012
at 02:05 AM

This actually reads like he was covering up for a fellow neurosurgeon and got busted on it....be interesting to know the circumstances of the deposition. Was he an expert witness for defense or the prosecution and that sorta thing.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on May 05, 2012
at 01:46 AM

Sorry, don't want to be too mean. But this is...not good. I'm sure it's affected Jack, even though he's a pretty upbeat guy. I hope the screw issue didn't have major implications for the patient.

F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on May 05, 2012
at 01:41 AM

WELL SAID!!!! CANNOT AGREE MORE!!! I wish I could upvote your answer 1,000 times!

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on May 05, 2012
at 01:38 AM

Look, you can put Ikea furniture together with a variety of different screws. It's the same with the brain and spine, right? Right??

C00e493393828df34be65ddc25456c7c

(610)

on May 05, 2012
at 01:30 AM

What can also occur is screws are not positioned correctly.

863fbe3ea7cacba9a77b19a09bf445cf

on May 05, 2012
at 01:29 AM

I suppose that's one explanation, Lee. Not sure it's the most plausible one, though.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on May 05, 2012
at 01:28 AM

That's awesome! I'm so happy for you. We're doing a project at work on accuracy and cost of neuroimaging for headaches, and when TN is mentioned my ears perk up. Crazy stuff, and it must be so nice to get back close to normal.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on May 05, 2012
at 01:27 AM

purplesaurus rex, please.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 05, 2012
at 01:24 AM

Oh. My. God. Cherry or Grape?

C00e493393828df34be65ddc25456c7c

(610)

on May 05, 2012
at 01:20 AM

Perhaps screw size is not a tiny quibble but that surgeon needs to determine what size screw to use. Using the wrong size screw could be detrimental to patient.

A65499f2f8c65602881550fe309cd48c

(3501)

on May 05, 2012
at 01:17 AM

Thanks for asking and yes, so much improvement I can't remember when I had my last flare up....amazing really.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on May 05, 2012
at 12:56 AM

Hi Karin! Totally off-topic, but I recognized your name, and remembered that you had/have TN. Any improvements?

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on May 05, 2012
at 12:55 AM

Hi Karen! Totally off-topic, but I remembered that you had/have TN. Any improvements?

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on May 05, 2012
at 12:41 AM

"Gurus" should be held to NO standard. If your dumb enough to follow someone blindly you deserve what you get. He's an MD, its up to his peers and state association to monitor his behavior in the clinical respect....

863fbe3ea7cacba9a77b19a09bf445cf

on May 05, 2012
at 12:37 AM

My concern is that he lied under oath re: the screw size. But yes, I'm also curious about the "other matters." Very mysterious.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on May 05, 2012
at 12:28 AM

I'm no medical expert, but the issue of the screw size seems like a tiny quibble. I'm more curious about these "other matters."

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on May 05, 2012
at 12:12 AM

It looks like the suspension was in December of 2011. For those who followed the MRSA biohack experiment...do you know what the timeline was leading up to the surgery?

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on May 05, 2012
at 12:05 AM

Jeez Louise this guy is so busy! He has done more in the past 6 months than I have done, well, ever! He really should get into the circles that are into hacking time management and productivity!

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21 Answers

28
3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on May 05, 2012
at 12:41 AM

"Gurus" should be held to NO standard. If your dumb enough to follow someone blindly you deserve what you get.

As to his status as an MD, its up to his peers and state association to monitor his behavior in the clinical respect....

F5a0ddffcf9ef5beca864050f090a790

(15515)

on May 05, 2012
at 01:41 AM

WELL SAID!!!! CANNOT AGREE MORE!!! I wish I could upvote your answer 1,000 times!

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 06, 2012
at 03:33 PM

Eh ... I'm not into gurus, but let's face it, we can't all be experts in every field. We have to rely on someone else more often than we care to. If I were to look for advice in something I have no training in, I'd do my best to vet the person's reputation/background/track record. But there are only so many hours in a day. So that Jack has been keynote speaking at PaleoFX, I think he's doing both an kickoff speech and a presentation on the LC Cruise (sets sail today) and will be on a panel about starches in August AHS, I'd say it's not "dumb" people following "blindly", but folks ... TBC

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on May 06, 2012
at 09:58 PM

@Evelyn, my understanding (I think Melissa mentioned it) is that there is a statement from Paleo leaders on the Kruse sitch?

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 06, 2012
at 03:34 PM

but folks trusting community leaders to somewhat vet the "gurus". The leaders are failing the community here. Badly.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on May 06, 2012
at 09:58 PM

Sorry, should've said, a statement forthcoming.

24
2507b557331c8a674bc81197531e609a

(4994)

on May 05, 2012
at 08:44 AM

I answered a recent question with the following information, but I believe it to be relevant here too. Plus the other question has been deleted so the answer was also deleted with it.

This does not surprise me what so ever. There has been numerous occasions (see previous threads on Kruse) where his honesty has been in question.

I had a twitter 'to and fro' with him very recently, Kruse dished out one of his usual blanket (excuse the pun) statements and I called him up on it. I suggested to him that perhaps he had a duty to his many followers, to be a clearer in his message. He informed me that he only has a duty of care to his patients. I then asked him if he did not think he had a duty of care to the hundreds (if not thousands, although it pains me to say that) of people he gives advice to on his website, here and MDA. His answer -

"I do not give advice over the internet!"

I sh** you not.

If you put your trust in this man, who reiterated to me several times he bears no responsibility what so ever to his online followers, then more fool you.

In my opinion, he is not interested in helping people, he is interested in notoriety. This is evident from his actions and answers when challenged. There is a lot of disturbing behaviour from him on various forums (including non health forums) that puts into question his state of mind. This suspension from the American Assoc. of Neurological Surgeons, is just yet another one of the many nails in his coffin that will hopefully lead to him no longer being a spokesperson of the paleo community. Seriously, how much does one person have to do before people realise he is not worth following?

863fbe3ea7cacba9a77b19a09bf445cf

on May 07, 2012
at 02:33 PM

I've often wondered what constitutes "medical advice" on the internet. On the MDA leptin reset thread, at least, Dr. Kruse went offered very specific recommendations about what labs people should have done, as well as interpretations of their lab results.

863fbe3ea7cacba9a77b19a09bf445cf

on May 07, 2012
at 02:36 PM

I've often wondered what constitutes "medical advice" on the internet. On the MDA leptin reset thread, at least, Dr. Kruse offered very specific recommendations about what labs people should have done, as well as interpretations of their lab results.

9f54852ea376e8e416356f547611e052

(2957)

on May 07, 2012
at 12:37 PM

Carly doesn't get it, and raydawg has it right. I believe Jack Kruse is an MD, and in the US it means that he can and will be held liable for any ill effects his advice results in. Him saying he doesn't give advice over the internet is him covering his ass so that lawyers are less likely to have a case against him. Don't blame Jack for the failures of your laws and litigious society.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on May 07, 2012
at 10:06 AM

Do you know any doctor that's allowed to diagnose you and give you advice over the internet? They can certainly tell you general things, but they can't give you specific advice unless they see you in person - and if they do, you fall under confidentiality at that point.

2507b557331c8a674bc81197531e609a

(4994)

on May 08, 2012
at 07:32 AM

I understand fully the legal implications. I am questioning a person's personal responsabilty as a HUMAN when they have been and are giving people medical advice over the internet. You are more than welcome to look at the conversation and make your own mind up at the tone and his attitude towards his followers. I think it's a sad and horrible world we live in when princibles are based only on legislation. How about having personal responsibilty to be clear to the people who are so obviously following your advice?

15
24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 05, 2012
at 12:56 PM

Given as this was one of the sites Jack used to "dump his message" on the paleo community and gather a following, I think it's not only appropriate, but almost imperative that this sort of information be shared.

Jack doesn't speak for paleo, but, then again he does. He has spoken at PaleoFX and TEDx for paleo. He works paleolithic diet into everything he says. His blog is amazingly popular and he's touted by many influential in the greater community. Yet he's someone many do not want to be associated with paleo. What does that say?

I think the timing of this sanction and his blog evolution to paid-for content is worth noting for those inclined to sign up.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 05, 2012
at 03:40 PM

Amen! Jack DOES, in fact, speak for paleo because we have allowed it. That's my big issue with him. I want him excommunicated so that we can all go back to talking about good food and good habits instead of starfish and bags of ice. Just because someone advocates a paleo diet does not mean the rest of his/her ideas fit or are appropriate to integrate into the wider template of health that is advocated. Please let this event help our "leaders" to get some chutzpah and actually lead for a change instead of acting out of fear because they mistakenly think Jack has more power than they do.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 07, 2012
at 11:40 AM

Jeez raydawg, it's not the premium content for cryin' out loud!! I don't have a problem with it, but Kurt & Emily have both discussed the problems with giving medical advice on the internet. The problem with Kruse is his credibility, and lying on a deposition is pretty serious stuff. What else has he lied about? I'm just providing information for folks to consider before wasting their money.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on May 06, 2012
at 10:21 PM

Who's to say who can and cannot speak about/for/of paleo?

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 07, 2012
at 11:43 AM

Matt, your point is taken. This is a diverse community that doesn't even have a singular definition of "paleo" so it's hard to say. The community as a whole gets to in a way by frequenting blogs, attending conferences, etc. But including quacks into the fold will harm the community -- ESPECIALLY if the goal is mainstream acceptance.

4bd765bafe9640f90b40b2d3ca9a25a6

on May 06, 2012
at 11:12 PM

It's becoming apparent that "Paleo" is becoming more of a religion ("excommunicated") to some than a mind altering adventure that it once was. Kruse is as strange and exciting to me today as Sisson & Wolf were 4+ years ago.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on May 07, 2012
at 04:46 PM

Ignore the quacks, or point out how stupid their positions are; that's what the "community" needs to do. It doesn't need to run smear campaigns and resort to ad hominem attacks. I'm more than happy to ignore Kruse's opinion (just as I don't pay any attention to Jaminet, Roddy or Peat...) If more folks just ignored him or countered his lunacy (which you've done so well in the past), that would be the solution.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 07, 2012
at 10:16 PM

Paul is no quack. Nor is he a "hack". I disagree with what he believes in many ways. The difference is this man will alter his thinking presented with new evidence. Show me wrong on that, I'll change my own mind.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on May 07, 2012
at 04:49 PM

You ignore Paul Jaminet?

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on May 07, 2012
at 10:10 AM

Art De Vany has a paid site, and I paid him $40 for access - I don't see many people complaining about him as vociferously as they do Kruse. Both Mark Sisson and Robb Wolf have advertising on their site for their books. Chris Kresser sells various programs that he advertises on his site. If folks don't have a problem with those, they shouldn't with Kruse's.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on May 07, 2012
at 07:25 PM

Not ignore, just don't sit him on a pedestal. Lots of PH'ers rank above him in terms of knowing their shit.

9
Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on May 05, 2012
at 02:20 AM

Ideation without execution leads to deletion.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on May 05, 2012
at 04:39 AM

i vote to delete this answer

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on May 05, 2012
at 02:52 PM

Loon- you can flag the answer for moderation attention, and a gaggle of moderators will weigh in. Outside of that, you and Anonymous Chump will have to battle it out inside the Octagon.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on May 06, 2012
at 01:12 AM

Yes you are. Read the Paleohacks FAQ more closely.

Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on May 05, 2012
at 06:54 PM

I was joking. It's a quote, though I admit that I did not give proper attribution. :( All that notwishstanding, I ain't battling no one in no octagon.

7
F0a3e3f17d9a740810ac37ff2353a9f3

(3804)

on May 06, 2012
at 05:37 PM

For all I know, Jack Kruse is completely full of ... doo-doo. I've read his blog, and I have no intention of following any of his recommended protocols.

Having said that, I can't help but make the observation that there's a certain amount of irony in this discussion, for two reasons:

1) Uncritical acceptance of incomplete evidence. None of us really know what Kruse did or if his suspension was justified, we only know what the AANS tells us. My impression is that if this was someone who is less controversial, we would be more skeptical.

2) Uncritical acceptance of the opinion of a national health/professional organization. In other circumstances, this would be a badge of honor. If an MD or RD was suspended from their respective professional organizations for advocating a Paleo diet, they'd be heros in this community, and for all we know the "other...causes for concern" might be Kruse's advocacy of a Paleo diet, as well.

No one deserves a free pass, but there seems to be a lower standard of evidence for criticism of Kruse than for other people.

On a related note, I'd expect other PH'ers to do the same thing I did, which is to read what Kruse has to say and accept or reject it based on that. I don't think I, or anyone else, needs "help" from his detractors to make that decision.

F0a3e3f17d9a740810ac37ff2353a9f3

(3804)

on May 06, 2012
at 10:51 PM

"Disdain" is too strong a word, and "us" is a very small group, but you're right about one thing: Most PH'ers seem to be reasonable, intelligent people.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 07, 2012
at 11:33 AM

@WCC Paul: I don't think a professional organization would censure someone for lying because they were looking for a reason to do so. That's lawsuit fodder for Jack.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on May 07, 2012
at 12:43 AM

if he were censured for perjury then we might have cause for concern. So I appreciate your spirit of self-criticism, but I think you've missed an important distinction. Because Kruse was censured for lying. That said, it would not surprise me in the least if organizations like this found little excuses to take someone down for other, unrelated reasons. And maybe that's what's going on here -- and what you have also implied. So there I agree with you. But I guess we'll have to wait and see.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 07, 2012
at 11:31 AM

Dude, I'm a neurosurgeon. Who has been suspended from his professional organization for lying in a deposition. That's serious stuff. I don't know about other PH'ers, but suspension from one's professional organization for any reason is not "badge of honor" type stuff.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on May 07, 2012
at 12:39 AM

"Uncritical acceptance of the opinion of a national health/professional organization. In other circumstances, this would be a badge of honor. If an MD or RD was suspended from their respective professional organizations for advocating a Paleo diet, they'd be heros in this community, and for all we know the "other...causes for concern" might be Kruse's advocacy of a Paleo diet, as well." Well, there's a distinction to be made: If one of these organizations censured Kurt Harris for "unorthodox nutritional beliefs," then yes, we would be up in arms. But [Continued]

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 07, 2012
at 03:48 PM

Right on Sam. As Plaleo people we don't belive a word a Brain Surgeon says about health , until they censure Kruse. Then they are fucking geniuses.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 06, 2012
at 08:38 PM

Honestly Sam I think you just haven't' been around here long enough to understand. Jack seems to be gone from PH now so you won't get to witness what many of us have over the past year so it will probably always be hard for you to understand. Consider yourself one of the lucky ones. I hope you stick around long enough to get to know some of us who are not fans of Jack and perhaps you will see that most of us are intelligent, reasonable people who love this community and have just had enough. Right now your disdain for us is quite palpable. I hope that changes one day.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 06, 2012
at 11:28 PM

Perhaps you don't mean it to be but it feels like disdain to me. And not just me. Why you think "us" is a very small group escapes me. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. We are the vast majority in the paleo community. Of this you can be certain. If you want to continue to stir the pot perhaps you could first take some time to understand the history and perhaps even some of the facts of the case? It's all very easy to find for someone with anything remotely resembling an open mind and no agenda of his own to follow.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on May 07, 2012
at 12:39 AM

"Uncritical acceptance of the opinion of a national health/professional organization. In other circumstances, this would be a badge of honor. If an MD or RD was suspended from their respective professional organizations for advocating a Paleo diet, they'd be heros in this community, and for all we know the "other...causes for concern" might be Kruse's advocacy of a Paleo diet, as well." Well, there's a distinction to be made: If one of these organizations censured Kurt Harris for "unorthodox nutritional beliefs," then yes, we might be up in arms. But [Continued]

6
28f280f8d64c7207fd94d158fbe6e070

(218)

on May 07, 2012
at 01:33 AM

Can I get out of this ice bath now? ;)

6
B3c62d89cd47b7d7209b6a99243d0ded

on May 07, 2012
at 12:43 AM

I don't find him to be all that credible right now, and pay him little heed.

Actual SUSPENSIONS are hard to trigger, and I certainly would not use him as a doctor knowing about it.

He presents his own synthesis of many, many health ideas... Some of which seem to strongly contradict each other. He may be inspiring to some, but he is so far from clear that I will never give him my money, or much credence.

5
A7768b6c6be7f5d6acc76e5efa66464c

on May 05, 2012
at 02:10 PM

The problem here for me is that I view all MDs with a jaundiced eye, often not accepting their assertions and diagnostics without my own verification or substantiation. I'm by no means arguing there aren't amazing MDs out there--I found a great one--I just don't grant my trust, and certainly not my faith, in anyone based on professional credentials. I've known too many dumb people with lofty credentials, and the opposite as well.

So while I might view Kruse or any other MD with suspicion, I'd surely view all his colleagues--the ones who suspended him--the same way. Meaning, their censure could easily be just a different brand of quackery. What happens when a paleo-promoting practitioner is censured by his /her professional community for not promoting, diagnosing, and treating based on the lipid hypothesis?

This question almost has a meta aspect to it, in terms of this site itself. I don't know much about Kruse or his history here. Whether we choose to label someone a guru or a quack (or both), I think people who post here should be held to standards. But we impose those standards ourselves, through the points/reputation system, challenging arguments, etc. And I consider sharing this info to be an important part of how this community defines and polices itself, and vets and curates its own content. If an individual's own professional community censures the individual, something I suppose happens relatively rarely, I want to know about it. But I might not find that sufficient reason to dismiss the individual. It becomes part of the bigger picture.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on May 07, 2012
at 10:15 AM

Or for example, when a victim of diabetes writes a blog about it which falls foul of a certain state's laws and he's sued by their medical association (or was that mafia) unless he takes his blog down.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 07, 2012
at 11:36 AM

@raydawg: I think the Cooksey thing is problematic for him because he was handing out business cards at a meeting. Not defending the ensuing witchhunt, but if it's the law then it's the law.

Dbd1e8fad5d4b47409d84bd6610020d5

(368)

on May 06, 2012
at 08:08 PM

I'm very wary of MD's as well. I've been misdiagnosed far too many times for my comfort and there is often "god complexes" involved as well. (That's not to say that there aren't doctors that I have liked and respected, it's just that they are few and far between.)

4
1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

on May 06, 2012
at 10:05 PM

"John J. Kruse, MD ??? Six-month Suspension. The Board concluded that Dr. Kruse gave false testimony in a deposition regarding the size of pedicle screws used in surgery by another neurosurgeon. There were several other matters which, while not the basis for the suspension recommendation, were causes for concern."

Everything about that statement is disconcerting and his share price just dropped in my book.

4
99d6abd84c40866a56f668185c0173fa

on May 05, 2012
at 01:14 AM

We all know Jack's got a couple loose screws,,, sounds like he's being crucified by his peers to me

4ec0fe4b4aab327f7efa2dfb06b032ff

(5145)

on May 07, 2012
at 01:28 AM

If he's got some loose screws, maybe it's good for his peers to give him a hard time.

8496289baf18c2d3e210740614dc9082

(1867)

on May 05, 2012
at 07:05 PM

Maybe they're just the wrong *size* screws ...

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on May 07, 2012
at 10:18 AM

Well, let's see, he gave testimony that was incorrect about the size of screws used by another doctor. So, why doesn't that testimony count as hearsay? If I heard you say that six months ago you had a rib eye steak, and it actually turned out you really had prime rib, and I testified that "to the best of my knowledge" you had a rib eye, but then someone pulled the restaurant receipt, would I really be giving false testimony based on _my_, unknown to me incorrect knowledge?

2
01adafcb4dd4147c6af543f61eee60a8

on May 05, 2012
at 08:32 AM

Whats with another kruse thread? If you dont like him,fine but your obsessive hatred of him is pathetic. Move on.

863fbe3ea7cacba9a77b19a09bf445cf

on May 05, 2012
at 10:56 AM

There's no hatred. But am I interested in whether one of the most visible doctors in the paleosphere is a competent, ethical practitioner? Yes.

2507b557331c8a674bc81197531e609a

(4994)

on May 05, 2012
at 08:46 AM

It's not hatred, it's warranted concern.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 05, 2012
at 03:43 PM

LOL. "Haters gonna hate" right? It's a mean cruel world out there Wayne now isn't it? Hilarious.

24fcc21452ebe39c032be6801d6bbadd

(9812)

on May 07, 2012
at 12:05 PM

Ehh, I give a flip about surgical errors. Just because this is a western medical association doesn't mean we shouldn't give a flip. I disagree with a lot of what the FDA and USDA do, but that doesn't mean they are 100% BS.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on May 06, 2012
at 11:59 PM

@Chauncey, but you do realise that the kangaroo court beating down Dr. Kruse is the same type of organization that fights tooth and nail to keep alternative medicines/diets (paleo perhaps) down, right? Should we really give a flip what these nonsense licencing boards say?

863fbe3ea7cacba9a77b19a09bf445cf

on May 07, 2012
at 02:24 PM

@Matt, no, I'm actually not intimately familiar with the inner workings of the AANS. and I never claimed to be. And you clearly aren't. The AANS is a professional society, not a licensing board. So Dr. Kruse was censured by a group of his peers. Should we give a flip about what licensing boards have to say? I do. And Dr. Kruse should as well, as his ability to practice medicine is up to the state board.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on May 07, 2012
at 07:43 PM

Better notify all the professional organizations of all the wacky things I've ever said on the internet then... not much else needs to be said, pro-Kruse folks are still going to like him, anti-Kruse folks are going to use this to validate their opinion of him, I don't think much of his ideas, but indifferent to him being in the community and I can't say that this little blurb about him has changed much.

863fbe3ea7cacba9a77b19a09bf445cf

on May 07, 2012
at 05:24 PM

Obviously there are politics in professional organizations. There are also people in them who care genuinely about protecting their profession and the public. I don't think anyone here is condemning Dr. Kruse based on a "sound bite." People are questioning his credibility because that "sound bite" was, in fact, a public censure by his peers that comes on the heels of months, if not years, of questionable behavior (e.g., making exaggerated or false claims on internet message boards).

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on May 07, 2012
at 04:52 PM

You obviously underestimate the influence of politics in these types of organizations. While I am not a member of any medical societies, the professional societies are I am a member of are all plagued with politics. My philosophy is to keep my head down and out of controversy, avoiding the politics altogether. It's not surprise that someone like Quilt (as controversial as he is) draws some ire from the powers that be. Again, so many here are quick to condemn Quilt based on what amounts to a sound bite. The reality of it is that neither you nor I really know why he's been suspended.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 21, 2012
at 10:51 AM

Hey all you Kruse fans! So where's your guru now?

1
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 07, 2012
at 12:09 PM

I was rear ended in a left turn lane 24 days ago, while I was on the way to my gym. 12 sessions of neuromuscular therapy and a shit load of cold therapy have alleviated much of the whiplash.I'm guessing the neuromuscular therapy accounts for %80 of the recovery. That's not my point. .......Through this period I've leaned out. My four pack became a six pack . Very little activity.Just my regular %100 paleo and lots and lots and lots of cold thermogenesis. It works people. GET USED TO IT. Try it , you'll like it! STOP THE HATE!

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 07, 2012
at 03:25 PM

Let me say, I've always enjoyed your ph name CC. But I dare say Jerzy Kosinki would side with me on this issue! The "real" Chauncey Gardner was an example of an organization making a mountain out of a real dumb ass"mole hill". In Kruse" case its the opposite. He's rocking the boat and needs to be punished.

863fbe3ea7cacba9a77b19a09bf445cf

on May 07, 2012
at 12:22 PM

Your answer doesn't address the question, shah78, which is about whether Dr. Kruse's suspension from AANS damages his credibility in the paleo community. And again (I guess it can't really be said enough), nobody is "hating" on Dr. Kruse. Some of us have perfectly legitimate concerns about his credibility.

863fbe3ea7cacba9a77b19a09bf445cf

on May 07, 2012
at 03:07 PM

That info helps put your answer in context.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 07, 2012
at 09:03 PM

And I know you think you don't" hate" Jack, but that's exactly what Rick Santorum says about his "objective"-not hateful" views on gays/lesbians. The emotions override reason, especially stirred up by GOP or PH "mob mentality". -Shah78 PH-ACLU

863fbe3ea7cacba9a77b19a09bf445cf

on May 07, 2012
at 02:18 PM

I don't know what your profession is, shah78, but if you were publicly censured by your peers for lying under oath, would you wear that as a badge of honor? If so, it's pretty clear that we're not going to agree on much of anything.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 07, 2012
at 12:31 PM

Then let my try again.I could care less if the Quilt got sanctioned by a bunch of tight assed MD's. You can imagine how tight the asses are of a bunch of brain surgeons! He throws the finger at his profession and they push back. Ever hear of the story about the guy who tossed the bird to another group of Scribes and Pharises a few (thousand)years ago . You guys are so eager to toss him out of "PaleoWoerld", can you imagine the politics involved with a bunch of BrainSurgeons? So my answer:I don'tcare if he got suspended.He should wear it as a badge of honor!

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 07, 2012
at 03:01 PM

I have never seen any professional, political,religious,acedemic oranization et al.that I would join or care if I were tossed out of. Talk about neolithic bull shit. I once tried to "disjoin" the Amherst College Alumni Association ,but it involved too much "paperwork".

1
96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on May 07, 2012
at 10:32 AM

Well, let's see, he gave testimony that was incorrect about the size of screws used by another doctor. So, why doesn't that testimony count as hearsay?

If I heard you say that, six months ago on a specific date, you had a rib eye steak, and it actually turned out you really had prime rib, and I testified that "to the best of my knowledge" you had a rib eye, but then someone pulled the restaurant receipt, would I really be giving false testimony based on my, unknown to me, incorrect knowledge?

Really, in the end, I don't care about that. What I do care about is whether or not his ideas are correct and useful. These can be proven via studies, when those studies are done, or if he has references to existing ones, backed up by such. I do recall from his earlier posts, that I did see such references. And when I read his newer stuff on CT, I'll note whether such exist.

Yes, I do wish he was more clear in his posts about the exact mechanisms, he is certainly sloppy in his writing. But again, at the end of the day, either his ideas on cold, and leptin, are the real meat of the question.

870fdea50f2a9f1cd2890c8e22549300

(2056)

on May 07, 2012
at 12:38 PM

It wouldn't be hearsay if he had actual knowledge of the size of the screws. If he was testifying about the contents of medical records, it would be part of the foundation of the opinion he was rendering as an expert. For all we know the length of the screws was a critical issue in the case.

870fdea50f2a9f1cd2890c8e22549300

(2056)

on May 07, 2012
at 12:42 PM

Oh, and if you're hired as an expert witness, part of your JOB is to know the facts of your case. There's a distinction between "erroneous" (mere ignorance) and "false" (deliberate) and to be censurable Kruse's testimony would have to fall into the latter category.

1
76026e8ef496039d5075440ff731aa0d

on May 05, 2012
at 03:35 AM

Quitting Paleo or making an argument against it because of the actions of one person would be like quitting your faith because a religious leader was found to be gay, or molested someone, or spent donation money on trips to Las Vegas...using one person's actions to base your entire argument on is just silly.

Truth.

76026e8ef496039d5075440ff731aa0d

(5386)

on May 05, 2012
at 04:50 AM

Sorry WCC, I should have answered directly to the following "No, I agree. But it sure would get interesting if folks used him as an example to discredit Paleo in general. I'm imagining the headlines now about a doc being stripped of his license to practice because of Paleo." It raised a question at least to me and I agree some Paleo haters would grasp at any straw if it meant tarnishing or embarrassing anyone who follows Paleo. Again, sorry for any confusion. Truth.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on May 05, 2012
at 04:14 AM

Honestly confused, T.Inc, and not trying to cause trouble: Did anyone imply that they were going to quit paleo because of this? Or you thought someone might potentially do that?

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on May 05, 2012
at 03:39 PM

Thanks for clarifyin'.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 05, 2012
at 01:02 PM

I didn't see anyone quitting Paleo over this either. Huh??

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on May 07, 2012
at 12:45 AM

Actually, I think there are a non-trivial number of newcomers to paleo being turned off by him before really getting started. That's not the same as the entrenched leaving, but still a sorry situation.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 05, 2012
at 04:45 PM

I'm quitting paleo because of this!

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on May 07, 2012
at 10:20 AM

Let's not turn Paleo into a religion. Please!

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on May 06, 2012
at 09:50 PM

Truthiness, my point was about folks who are trying to discredit Paleo from the outside, not folks from within. I hope no one out there is looking for an excuse to leave Paleo and Jack Kruse does it for them. Sorry if that wasn't clear. But for doctors, Paleo is not harmless. Emily Deans has talked about how the stakes are higher for those with MDs. It can be considered as falling outside the "standard of care" and doctors could be censured (as Kruse was over the screw) or lose lawsuits based on it. Sad, but true.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on May 07, 2012
at 11:01 AM

@Ambimorph how many potential paleo people come to paleo through Kruse? I can't imagine it's all that many. Heck, I only found him via PH!

1
7767e05a8c4504f6be03f13ee40815cd

(1299)

on May 05, 2012
at 01:24 AM

He doesn't speak for paleo. No one can speak for the whole community or claim to own the idea of eating and living more in accordance with our ancestral and genetic composition.

F5f742cc9228eb5804114d0f3be4e587

(7660)

on May 05, 2012
at 03:17 AM

No, I agree. But it sure would get interesting if folks used him as an example to discredit Paleo in general. I'm imagining the headlines now about a doc being stripped of his license to practice because of Paleo.

1
9f32a7a26645ba59321d4f38b7128bcf

(36)

on May 05, 2012
at 01:21 AM

I would venture to say, if a neurosurgeon used a non-standard size of screw, it wouldn't be because the hardware store was all out. I would say, some thought was involved. I guess that means conventional wisdom was questioned. Sounds like he got his hand smacked and took a bullet for a patient.

863fbe3ea7cacba9a77b19a09bf445cf

on May 05, 2012
at 01:29 AM

I suppose that's one explanation, Lee. Not sure it's the most plausible one, though.

870fdea50f2a9f1cd2890c8e22549300

(2056)

on May 05, 2012
at 01:12 PM

Hang on. From the facts as presented, it appears that he was an expert witness. It wasn't a question of taking a bullet for a patient, but money for his testimony.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 05, 2012
at 01:24 AM

Oh. My. God. Cherry or Grape?

870fdea50f2a9f1cd2890c8e22549300

(2056)

on May 05, 2012
at 01:28 PM

Hang on. He was acting as an expert witness. Not a question of taking a bullet for a patient, but money for his testimony. Questioning conventional wisdom is not the same thing as providing false testimony about an objective fact (the size of the screws actually used).

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on May 05, 2012
at 01:27 AM

purplesaurus rex, please.

1
A65499f2f8c65602881550fe309cd48c

(3501)

on May 05, 2012
at 12:52 AM

You're right...Le groan.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on May 05, 2012
at 12:56 AM

Hi Karin! Totally off-topic, but I recognized your name, and remembered that you had/have TN. Any improvements?

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on May 05, 2012
at 12:55 AM

Hi Karen! Totally off-topic, but I remembered that you had/have TN. Any improvements?

A65499f2f8c65602881550fe309cd48c

(3501)

on May 05, 2012
at 01:17 AM

Thanks for asking and yes, so much improvement I can't remember when I had my last flare up....amazing really.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on May 05, 2012
at 01:28 AM

That's awesome! I'm so happy for you. We're doing a project at work on accuracy and cost of neuroimaging for headaches, and when TN is mentioned my ears perk up. Crazy stuff, and it must be so nice to get back close to normal.

0
A3d88520562c8bbd1724bb9823cf1b03

(0)

on October 05, 2013
at 08:42 AM

I don't know what is with all this hate against Kruse. He doesn't owe anybody anything. The man presents some info on his website. You need personalized advice or advanced information that the man invests time and money, you pay. What is the problem in that? I think it is just the envy speaking and not being able to move past "paleo" and see that we have to go beyond nutrition and beyond "paleo".

0
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 07, 2012
at 08:55 PM

Just my thinking. Let's put Jack kruse on PaleoWorld trial for "actions" unbecoming a Paleo Guru". Clinton was impeached and put on trial for his proclivity toward skanks and Jack lied about the size of a screw. The horror! Let's exhume Rhenquist and put back on his chevron sleeved gown and get rid of Jack once and for all. If we can't get Bill Rhenquist, I can try to get his son Jim Rhenquist, who graduated Amherst two years earlier than me.(he was very good at basketball!) Who wants to assume the role of Gingrich? Life is way too short people, especially if you can't , or refuse too lengthen your telomeres.:)

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 07, 2012
at 09:09 PM

Have you ever seen Saturday Night Live? The Daily Show? Better yet The Colbert Report? It's called Parady! WOW! How about Seinfeld?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on May 07, 2012
at 09:11 PM

It's called Parody!

Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on May 07, 2012
at 09:05 PM

In your other post on this thread, you told people to "stop the hate." Now you're wanting to literally create a trial court for the purpose of putting Kruse on trial? What's next from you, Shah?

0
40b065644e95a090f6a41808303773ae

on May 05, 2012
at 11:59 AM

I hesitate to point out that the Kruse pointed out in the article is a "John" while the crazy CT leptin one is a "Jack"...

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 05, 2012
at 12:57 PM

Yes, there can be no mistake there. Jack even posts as "john" on Blogger blogs.

40b065644e95a090f6a41808303773ae

(450)

on May 05, 2012
at 05:42 PM

Nice and confusing then ;) Thanks for the clarifications!

870fdea50f2a9f1cd2890c8e22549300

(2056)

on May 05, 2012
at 12:27 PM

Same guy: http://www.vitals.com/doctors/Dr_John_J_Kruse.html

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on May 07, 2012
at 12:47 AM

Jack is a nickname for John. Until recently it virtually always referred to a John.

-1
8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on May 05, 2012
at 04:41 AM

Don't have a guru, don't be against a guru. Think for yourself. If all you can do is just be against something, then delete yourself now and save us all the trouble.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on May 06, 2012
at 01:13 AM

The Loon is a "her" :)

863fbe3ea7cacba9a77b19a09bf445cf

on May 05, 2012
at 05:13 AM

Loon, I don't think I (or anyone else) is arguing that you shouldn't think for yourself. The fact is, many of us get information from "authorities" like Kruse, Rosedale, Deans, Harris, etc. And how much stock we place in their recommendations has something to do, I think, with their behavior as medical professionals. As for your 3rd sentence, feel free to clarify where your ire is coming from, as it's not clear to me.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on May 05, 2012
at 01:01 PM

Loon, the fact of the matter is that most people do not have the education (note I didn't say intelligence) to critically scrutinize what many of these respected "authorities" say to pick fact from fiction. Delete yourself? Consider that being against quackery from someone like Jack is also being FOR honest dissemination of helpful information.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 05, 2012
at 08:24 PM

People like you Loon seem to be completely unable to see the issue which I find completely baffling and disrespectful. How hard is it to understand that standing on principle is an act of love not hate. I don't hate this man. Quite frankly I don't care enough about him to hate him. I simply want people to see the truth of the situation. I love the paleo community and above all else I love fat people who are searching for answers and I have experienced first hand the damage Jack has caused by actually turning away from Paleo because of his highly unpaleo-like talk.

Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on May 05, 2012
at 06:57 PM

I'll vote this back up to even-steven. Loon has as much a right to his opinion as anyone else, though I don't like that "delete yourself" stuff.

Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on May 06, 2012
at 03:44 PM

If the Loon is a "her," then I agree to the proposed battle in the octagon.

863fbe3ea7cacba9a77b19a09bf445cf

on May 05, 2012
at 05:11 AM

Loon, I don't think I (or anyone else) is arguing that you shouldn't think for yourself. The fact is, many of get information from "authorities" like Kruse, Rosedale, Deans, Harris, etc. And how much stock we place in their recommendations has something to do, I think, with their behavior as medical professionals. As for your 3rd sentence, feel free to clarify where your ire is coming from, as it's not clear to me.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on May 05, 2012
at 08:31 PM

I find baffling and insulting these people who are so completely unable to see the issues at hand. What is the proper reply to "haters gonna hate." Why is it so hard for some of you to understand that those of us who are pointing out the problems with Jack and his shenanigans are acting out of love for this community and not hate for anyone. You want us to just ignore the big mess that's been created here? Now that would be what I would call hateful. Perhaps those of you who are so upset to see the truth exposed are the ones who need to delete yourselves and go to Jack's forum to find peace.

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