11

votes

Does the Quilt's cold therapy protocol increase subcutaneous fat?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created March 11, 2012 at 1:43 AM

Dr. Kruse mentions that the CT reduces fat all over, but other experts say that it will increase subcutaneous fat. What say you?

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

Every family member I have that has moved way north like to Alaska and Greenland, has taken on a sort of hulky bear shape (not starving polar bear, mind you), the thinnest look a bit like the "Ron Swanson" character from "Parks and Rec". I seriously doubt they eat ketogenic diets with restrictions to their n-6 intake though, so cold in its own right, plus basic SAD diet, plus some booze with my genetic background seems to cause a blubber response.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 08, 2012
at 05:26 PM

As a former competitive swimmer for many years, I am aware of this phenomenon. The coaches would often make girls do extra cardio on land to get leaner. It might be that cold water makes more SQ, but swimming in cold water is a strong appetite stimulant, and girls may overcompensate. Because girls have a harder time building muslce than guys, the extra cals might be more readily partitioned into fat as opposed to guys who may not overcompensate or who may have those extra cals more readily taken up by muscle cells.

34b560c8b9ce660d7839fb7e29d7be89

on May 04, 2012
at 09:19 PM

@WayfinderAli- Well that's sort of implied, I didn't mean to claim that it was because of the cold, only that the cold didn't increase subcutaneous fat by any means either. The increased appetite I noted makes me think that extra calories are expended but that over eating may result in a net gain. Further I suggest that if it did lead to fat gain it would be interesting to know if CT resulted in a different distribution pattern or whether it varied by population at all.

183f5c49a7a9548b6f5238d1f33cb35e

(1716)

on May 04, 2012
at 09:06 PM

In the last 2 weeks, I have done cold water baths - I sit in the tub and fill it up until just under my boobs and stay in for about 45 mins. I have only done 2 baths so far with no ice, just cold water - going to lower the temp gradually with ice over the next few weeks. The baths feel wonderful so far and they really help my leg/thigh edema. I wear a beanie while in the tub and I feel this helps tolerate the cold water better. I still ice the belly for about 1.5 hours each morning. Maybe you should only soak half your body to prevent boob shrinkage?

183f5c49a7a9548b6f5238d1f33cb35e

(1716)

on May 04, 2012
at 09:06 PM

I don't know why I lost my period - possible factors include going low carb, losing lots of body fat (which have both historically affected my cycle) or perhaps some mysterious hypothalamic rewiring. Started using ice packs 24th Feb - Period came back on April 15th. Everyone laughed at my ice suit but now I am normal - so nyah. Currently, I only take cold showers except for about 3 times per week when I wash my hair. I don't think its a good idea to submerge your entire head in ice cold water.

183f5c49a7a9548b6f5238d1f33cb35e

(1716)

on May 04, 2012
at 09:06 PM

I wear spanx that comes up to just under my boobs, then I put the ice packs on my belly, then put on my swimsuit to create an ice sandwich on my torso (Never ever put the packs directly on skin! And I think that a compression garment as your first layer helps a lot) I started off wearing the ice suit about 1 hour each day. I have currently ramped it up to 1.5 hours at the moment. Interestingly, I have been amenorrheic since October last year, since doing the Leptin Reset.

183f5c49a7a9548b6f5238d1f33cb35e

(1716)

on May 04, 2012
at 09:05 PM

Hi WayfinderAli! I started in Mid February by doing only face dunks, after breakfast, for about 2 weeks. I did it about 4 times per week, in a large bowl filled with Ice and water. Just my face, up till the hairline, for as long as I could hold my breath. Did this for about 5 times (breaths) per session, and afterwards my face was bright red. I then purchased some ice packs on Feb 24th, and started icing my belly - not my entire torso but just the front and sides. Still did a couple more face dunks but stopped them and moved onto only belly icing.

Medium avatar

(2169)

on May 04, 2012
at 12:07 AM

Grottenolm- I've been considering starting CT for a little while but haven't taken the plunge (tehe) What are you doing during your cold exposure- did you first do face dunks and then move on to ice packs to the belly? How long do you leave your ice bags on? Did you notice changes when you do/wer doing just face dunks? How long are your cold showers and do they accompany the ice packs to the belly? I'm worried about loosing breast tissue (IE fat) doing a full tub soak. What do you think?

Medium avatar

(2169)

on May 04, 2012
at 12:02 AM

to play devil's advocate- it's possible that your friends were the leanest you've ever seen them because they were young and they were surfing regularly.

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on April 11, 2012
at 05:03 PM

Ummmmm... I just google image searched those pearl divers and those women don't look "chubby" to me. They appear to be very muscular with well placed fat deposits on their buttocks and thighs but nothing that could be interpreted as overweight. I'm confused at what the fat loss goals you guys have in mind for women in their child bearing years.

Medium avatar

(4878)

on March 22, 2012
at 06:04 PM

Glad to hear they're adopting Paleo, I've actually found the Military to be amazingly good at adopting new strategies and taking very calculated risks that are not seen in corporate America or other government orgs. Thank you for your service.

9b0a4701e373d4dd13831cfb9b13f42d

(1677)

on March 22, 2012
at 02:06 AM

I was eating SAD, the community was just starting to move toward cross fit/Olympic lifts and Paleo. Now they've hired the best strength and conditioning coaches/nutritionists money could buy. They even send out Robb Wolfe, Dan John, MoveNat etc to to try and get the highest level of performance out of each individual.

F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on March 21, 2012
at 08:37 PM

I was thinking the same thing, but you stated it very well. I'm feeling more able to handle the cold now than before, and I'm curious how this will play out.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on March 21, 2012
at 05:42 PM

Awesome anecdote :)

518bce04b12cd77741237e1f61075194

(11577)

on March 21, 2012
at 05:40 PM

I use a shorty wet suit for the summer for water around 15-17 degrees Celcius, and a full suit for winter at around 8 degrees C (usually a hood and 3cm boots too). I would say for most years the water temp maxes out at 16 degrees in August, maybe hits an extreme every once in a while. It is pretty cold year round though, not "light dip" kind of coast.

Medium avatar

(4878)

on March 21, 2012
at 05:02 PM

Cory, Congrats on being one of the few to survive that program. What was your diet on Coronado? I'm guessing (based on my sister's military experience) that it wasn't high fat, high protein, low carb. You also were subjected to sleep deprivation which is part of the uncoupling that The Quilt writes about. Although your experience used cold water, it wasn't close to what his CT protocol suggests which is a combination of Diet, lifestyle, and CT.

9b0a4701e373d4dd13831cfb9b13f42d

(1677)

on March 21, 2012
at 03:57 PM

Skinning it or with a wet suit?

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on March 17, 2012
at 03:14 PM

Welcome PaleoBarbie. Don't let it scare you away.

183f5c49a7a9548b6f5238d1f33cb35e

(1716)

on March 17, 2012
at 04:13 AM

Great stuff paleobarbie! How are you cooling down the water in the tub? I am having a bit of a conundrum as I only have a tiny freezer in my apartment. Might have to resort to getting bags of ice from the local minimart for these icebaths.....

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on March 16, 2012
at 11:41 PM

You missed out on a lot of history with this one PaleoBarbie.

06c0ce9ada45c9680344e22e28b3960f

on March 16, 2012
at 09:27 PM

I am seeing the same results (44 year old female here). One thing additional: my Achilles tendon (awaiting surgery) seems to be repairing itself, and a back pull (that I get regularly) is healing I would say 2-3x faster than usual. I have been trying cold thermomgenesis for 10 days (baths). Anecdotal n=1, I know :)

06c0ce9ada45c9680344e22e28b3960f

on March 16, 2012
at 08:37 PM

Can I just say that some of you are not being cool right now? The name-calling is appalling to me (a newbie to PH)...

A3bb2c70384b0664a933b45739bac32c

(951)

on March 13, 2012
at 06:52 PM

This was also my line of thinking. After workout I usually take the hottest shower I can stand to get clean then turn it cold until my muscles feel cooled.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on March 13, 2012
at 05:13 PM

Quilt, Also I was actually agreeing with you that I don't think therapeutic cold exposure is going to increase body fat.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on March 13, 2012
at 04:53 PM

I thought maybe I should add that the main point of this answer was that using non-human animals as examples is not very useful.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on March 13, 2012
at 02:49 PM

Wowza- I meant lack of evidence on subcutaneous fat from chronic cold exposure (in an experimental setting, to avoid confounders). Good article though.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on March 13, 2012
at 02:46 PM

Very well thought out!

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on March 13, 2012
at 12:33 PM

But isn't a CT protocol (Todd Becker's cold showers or the Quilt's ice baths) somewhere between acute and chronic? The folks who do the polar bear plunges on New Years are an example of the former, the folks who pearl dive are the latter. Are there examples (in nature or otherwise) in between?

80890193d74240cab6dda920665bfb6c

(1528)

on March 13, 2012
at 02:22 AM

Kamal, what do you mean there's no evidence of what happens to women with chronic exposure to cold water? Google for pix of the Japanese pearl divers, the ama, from the 40s and 50s, a time before Japan adopted a more Western-style diet. They iz chunky broads. Also Google the 1962 study of Korean divers, and of course here: http://www.wemjournal.org/article/S1080-6032(03)70033-7/fulltext

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on March 13, 2012
at 12:19 AM

Do SAD panthers benefit from cold baths? Time to visit the zoo and ask cryptic questions to the zookeeper.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on March 13, 2012
at 12:00 AM

There should have been sufficient selective pressure for this adaptation, so I would be disappointed if we didn't gain subcutaneous fat in response to cold since we already route blood flow below or above it, depending upon temperature.

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on March 12, 2012
at 11:30 PM

Fractal, fractal, ratio. NASA. Thermal. Uncoupling. Simple-minded. Insult, insult. Continuum. I'm so smart!

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on March 12, 2012
at 11:15 PM

Quilt-"I love simple thinking" no kidding... And apparently just looking at pictures without bothering to read the words.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on March 12, 2012
at 11:11 PM

Did the cold thermogenesis rewire you humour pathways? :)

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on March 12, 2012
at 11:00 PM

panthers haven't accumulated all the "mismatches". Personally, I have never seen the panthers in my area on their iphones after sunset.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on March 12, 2012
at 10:58 PM

well, we can probably figure out that we aren't hearing anything from those who are dead

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on March 12, 2012
at 10:57 PM

..could be a bathtub curve, cold of course :)

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on March 12, 2012
at 10:57 PM

Quilt-"I love simple thinking" - no kidding...

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on March 12, 2012
at 10:54 PM

So deep marine mammals equal land based mammals now? I love simple thinking. It leaves you with simple results. You do what you are doing and I'll do what I am. Deep marine mammals have huge 03 to 06 ratios. Land based mammals have a 4:1 ratio. Those like the walrus alter theirs depending upon season. Yes, season. Matt does not get how mammals are all on continuum but they all use the same fractal biochemical design.

0d0842381492a41b2173a04014aae810

(4875)

on March 12, 2012
at 10:26 PM

@Anon, I'd missed that thread previously. Thanks for the laugh :)

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on March 12, 2012
at 03:16 PM

Melissa- I think it's two separate questions: acute effects of a bout of cold water vs chronic effects of many many bouts of cold exposure in general. The second scenario doesn't seem to have any evidence, so we speculate madly!

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on March 12, 2012
at 03:15 PM

Good point Loon. Could be exponential, display a spline...:)

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on March 12, 2012
at 01:59 PM

Pandas remain cute, round and furry whatever the temperature :)

5e36f73c3f95eb4ea13a009f4936449f

(8280)

on March 12, 2012
at 01:41 PM

Quick googling indicates that they're getting pretty old on average. No new young ones to replace them (I guess they're not masochistic enough :) ). So on the positive side, in the 80's. However, it's not very scientific. The issue is, do they all really live longer, or is it just the ones we're hearing about living longer? Also, I wasn't able to find anything on their diet. Probably a lot of seafood and fats, but no info on carbs, etc.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on March 12, 2012
at 12:36 PM

what about pandas???

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on March 12, 2012
at 03:42 AM

otoh, people who subject themselves to cold exposure are probably less successful with more traditional methods. There are tons of motivated fat people, they just aren't finding success with a variety of methods.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on March 12, 2012
at 03:30 AM

wowza, how was their lifespan?

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on March 12, 2012
at 03:28 AM

perhaps the relationship is not linear

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on March 12, 2012
at 03:23 AM

maybe so, but this question isn't necessarily about diet

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 12, 2012
at 01:09 AM

Is there any evidence at all that spending time in icy water increases fat at all? I don't think there is. I think there is some PRELIMINARY evidence it activates BAT, not that it increases it.

1805757a5926dffa9ef875a81725e078

(20)

on March 11, 2012
at 10:36 PM

dumber questions: are people arguing that setting my fat arse in a cold tub of water (50-55F) for minutes a day (45 shooting for 60-90) will make me look like a walrus? is it possible that there is difference between my aquatic life & that of mammals that spend a huge portion of their life in much colder water & when they're not in that icy water often hang out on ice & snow? is it possible that there is more than one way to lose weight & be healthy? is it mandatory to thoughtlessly crap on ideas that don't fit your paradigm? ya think maybe i'll be okay if i keep wearing my toque?

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on March 11, 2012
at 09:48 PM

The polar bears, artic seals, et al forgot to take their HCG injections.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on March 11, 2012
at 09:34 PM

Panthers are pretty lean. I think they're warm adapted. Masai are pretty lean. I think they're warm adapted. Usain Bolt is pretty lean. I think he's warm adapted. Hmmmm....

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on March 11, 2012
at 08:52 PM

That's an interested point FED. Humans certainly have an adaptive advantage that other animals don't have...but I would think that subcutaneous fat (to a small extent) would be much more helpful in northern latitudes than at the equator. That skirts the issue of genetic variation though--cold adaptation within cultures is different than within a given individual. As far as swimmers, you would think that endurance and drive is what leads one to become a competitive swimmer, not ability to store subcutaneous fat :)

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on March 11, 2012
at 08:49 PM

He is arrogant. Probably a douche as well. That's one smart dude though. And he's generally right about a whole lot of stuff. And he's good friends with Gary Taubes so I pretty much believe whatever he says about just about anything.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on March 11, 2012
at 08:49 PM

That last part is key! Cold exposure as an adjunct to calorie restriction is one thing, but as a strategy for someone who is not losing weight...not sure. People who lose weight do a lot of things at once, and those who comment on their results online may attribute weight loss to the most extreme part (cold baths). Also, people who use cold exposure are likely more motivated to lose weight than those who are not willing to dip themselves naked into freezing water.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 11, 2012
at 08:30 PM

http://www.pinniped.net/leonardara2005.pdf

Medium avatar

(19479)

on March 11, 2012
at 08:27 PM

While sea mammals (and arctic mammals in general) develop thick layers of blubber, humans in similar environments may not have to. The "adaptation" that humans made was to wear the winter coats of other animals and to develop technologies (like the construction of igloos) to maintain a normal body temperature. I wonder if thicker subcutaneous fat deposits in long distance swimmers are simply correlated in the way that being tall is correlated to playing professional basketball. What say you Kamal?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 11, 2012
at 08:25 PM

Is there any evidence that cold exposure increases BAT in adult humans?

9e20abb05f3f6e3cc4bb107f8980aecd

(5939)

on March 11, 2012
at 07:59 PM

Dumb question: Are polar bears, arctic seals, walruses, sea lions, and whales fat? Are they cold adapted or warm adapted?

80890193d74240cab6dda920665bfb6c

(1528)

on March 11, 2012
at 07:54 PM

Hi Lisa, as you know, this is a well-trod path. The champions of cold water have long been women - Korean urchin divers, Japanese pearl divers, Greek sponge divers. For millennia there've been free-diving women who spend hours in the cold sea. And I have news for you - they had quite a lot of subcutaneous fat. More than a touch. They were rounded ladies; they were well-studied by the early scuba folks. Nonetheless, I hope your N=1 is successful and you reach your goals.

80890193d74240cab6dda920665bfb6c

(1528)

on March 11, 2012
at 07:26 PM

It's obvious that women have to put on fat in harsh environments if at all possible. Let's get real - we women didn't evolve to be shredded. We evolved to carry enough fat to get preggers and sustain the baby at all times. We evolved to be fertile every month unlike our other monkey relatives and to protect our fertility at all times. Harsh environment is going to trigger a fat-laydown response in us - our body will protect fertility. This is why Inuit women are fat like the Korean divers. Quilt just doesn't seem to think the ladies exist or that we have different evolutionary goals than men.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on March 11, 2012
at 07:11 PM

Watching Animal Planet does not qualify you as an expert in Evolutionary Biology.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on March 11, 2012
at 07:07 PM

Watching Animal Planet does qualify you as an expert in Evolutionary Biology.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on March 11, 2012
at 06:46 PM

Evolutionary biology is only useful as a guide if you already have a good understand of evolutionary biology.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on March 11, 2012
at 06:46 PM

Hmmm....maybe that guys is smart.....seeing as he agrees with me and all :).

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on March 11, 2012
at 06:45 PM

Evolutionary biology can only be used as a guide if you have a good understand of evolutionary biology.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on March 11, 2012
at 06:43 PM

Evolutionary biology can only be used as a guide if you good understand of evolutionary biology.

F3920b85be76a5d8cf466d805bfb99e4

(638)

on March 11, 2012
at 05:48 PM

"This is not the same as the development of brown fat, caused by regular exposure to cold temperatures, which metabolizes both glucose and white fat to produce body heat at lower temperatures." Would that not be a good choice for a fat diabetic or pre-diabetic (along with a paleo diet) ?

F3920b85be76a5d8cf466d805bfb99e4

(638)

on March 11, 2012
at 05:40 PM

@Wowza, I want more brown fat and less visceral fat, and if I get a touch more subcutaneous fat in the trade off then I will still be better off.... because that visceral fat is a killer. Plus, I want to be able to button my skinny jeans that fit in the legs & hips but not at the stomach.

Ee70ee808f748374744404a00e1c22ed

(1163)

on March 11, 2012
at 05:25 PM

...with fat stores because in many cases they are existing solely on their stores of fat while hibernating, not because of exposure to cold. Inuits would provide a much more applicable example, being 1)human, 2)conscious and active under chronic cold exposure, and 3)the subjects of previous studies on this very subject.

Ee70ee808f748374744404a00e1c22ed

(1163)

on March 11, 2012
at 05:17 PM

Zeltiq is cryptolypolysis- skin cells can tolerate colder temperatures without destruction than fat cells, so an application of a certain range of temperatures can essentially get rid of fat. This is not the same as the development of brown fat, caused by regular exposure to cold temperatures, which metabolizes both glucose and white fat to produce body heat at lower temperatures. I don't think that Zeltiq proves much at all about cold adaption, or is very applicable to this discussion. Also, I agree with orust; hibernating animals are not a very good example. Animals do not emerge...

1805757a5926dffa9ef875a81725e078

(20)

on March 11, 2012
at 05:13 PM

agreed Beth, definitely a good trade off. and keep in mind that loss of visceral is not the only benefit of cold therapy. my thought with this is like anything else... give it a fair try and if you don't like the effects, stop.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on March 11, 2012
at 03:33 PM

I am very confused by this subject. There are a host of benefits to cold thermogenesis, increasing BAT etc. However, so many people are doing this for the weight loss benefits as well. If there is a chance that it sabotages those efforts, people are going to be pretty cranky. Anyway, I am vexed by this paper that says that women and men react almost oppositely to cold exposure - men increase lean and women increase fat. These are in Arctic cold adapted people. Can you speak to this? http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22223/abstract

4781cf8ae1bfcb558dfb056af17bea94

(4359)

on March 11, 2012
at 03:28 PM

Yes, that's it - he seems arrogant.

E4f858a9178422502c42b9719690e52c

(603)

on March 11, 2012
at 02:45 PM

"animal mammal"... meant to delete the word animal there... :)

E4f858a9178422502c42b9719690e52c

(603)

on March 11, 2012
at 02:43 PM

"If Matt was correct, and yes I am saying he is NOT, all hibernating mammals should emerge from their dens with tons of SQ fat.......and they do not" They don't eat anything! Isn't an Inuit person living a traditional lifestyle a closer comparison than a hibernating animal mammal?

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on March 11, 2012
at 01:11 PM

But many (most?) people who move north or who are exposed to cold outside or in the pool don't necessarily pay attention to their diet. Perhaps cold+paleo diet is different from cold+traditional/SAD?

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on March 11, 2012
at 01:01 PM

Not that I'm advising it, but if a cold protocol decreased visceral fat at the expense of subcutaneous fat, that might be a worthwhile health tradeoff.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on March 11, 2012
at 12:50 PM

That's essentially what Mat Lalonde said in his Jimmy Moore podcast ... chronic exposure leads to a fat layer for protection, a la the Inuit. He also advised folks putting ice packs on their backs (a la Ferriss' 4 Hour Body) to avoid freezing their soft tissue!

1a641bbff1a7b0a70f08410376bbdf6b

(1587)

on March 11, 2012
at 12:33 PM

I guess Jay means he may seem a little arrogant to some people at first. Personally, I think he is awesome and very open minded. When he heard about banana boy's diet on the "Ask the low carb experts" podcast he didn't just say how stupid it is, he was quite interested in it and said it's great if it works for him and his type of physical activity

35a8b223ae5d863f17a8c9e3a8eed5eb

(571)

on March 11, 2012
at 09:46 AM

yea, y is that? I'm curious too

34b560c8b9ce660d7839fb7e29d7be89

on March 11, 2012
at 09:26 AM

@Happy Now, my favorite Ron Swanson quote is a toss-up between; "never half-ass two things, whole ass one thing" and "...is that a deep fried turkey leg inside a beef burger, then yes delicious" in response to have you ever tried a turkey burger.

97ffbac59e88bdff6495d0a9b6f70ff7

(555)

on March 11, 2012
at 07:53 AM

Why is that Jay?

80890193d74240cab6dda920665bfb6c

(1528)

on March 11, 2012
at 05:10 AM

Why do you want more subcutaneous fat, Lisa? I'm really curious. Myself, I hate my little "jelly belly" and work like a dog to lose it by exercise. What is the advantage of gaining it?

4781cf8ae1bfcb558dfb056af17bea94

(4359)

on March 11, 2012
at 04:44 AM

Really? He seems like a douche to me.

97ffbac59e88bdff6495d0a9b6f70ff7

(555)

on March 11, 2012
at 04:39 AM

Lalonde is the man. One of the few in my opinion who consistently approaches diet scientifically.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on March 11, 2012
at 03:21 AM

And "that doesn't apply to people who are cold-adapated" cannot answer everything, no? A bit of a deux ex machina without sound reasoning. Although I'm totally open to some more sound reasoning.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on March 11, 2012
at 03:20 AM

Men do lose fat with cold submersion at a quicker rate than women--which I posted on Quilt's twitter yesterday. Your reasoning seems sound to me. Cold submersion is intriguing, and I tried it after hearing about it in Tim Ferris's 4 hour body, but I don't see it passing the "be natural and take it easy" test. For fat loss, I'd rather do light walking (burns the same amount of calories, as per study I posted on Kruse's twitter). For health, I'd rather try to lower stress and eat a simple diet with macro and micronutritous foods.

80890193d74240cab6dda920665bfb6c

(1528)

on March 11, 2012
at 03:11 AM

I see on google scholar a somewhat convoluted 1962 study of female Korean sea divers that suggests the reason women dove instead of men was their increased body fat allowed them to stand the cold longer, and that female divers had more fat than nondivers. So it looks like that while Quilt's ideas may or may not work for men, it probably puts fat on us ladies (unless you want to argue that Koreans have unique genetics), which would make sense from an evolution point of view. We gotta be able to make da babies despite the environment - lay on the fat girlfriend!

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on March 11, 2012
at 02:40 AM

I'm listening...or reading...

Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on March 11, 2012
at 01:56 AM

Perhaps you to practice the entire HOLY TRINITY to avoid the subcutaneous fat? http://paleohacks.com/questions/100894/are-you-open-to-kruses-holy-trinity#axzz1oljK5VDC

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17 Answers

36
0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on March 11, 2012
at 10:31 PM

This Hippopotamus is fat because it eats a vegan diet and lives in the baking hot tropics.

does-the-quilt's-cold-therapy-protocol-increase-subcutaneous-fat?

This Elephant Seal is lean and ripped because it eats a ketogenic diet and swims in the frozen Antarctic.

does-the-quilt's-cold-therapy-protocol-increase-subcutaneous-fat?

Fat is used by some Mammals as insulation, but whether a wild animal is by nature fat or lean is due to more factors than just diet and temperature.

I think that it is possible that chronic cold exposure could increase subcutaneous fat as a protective measure. However, most people exposing themselves to cold as a therapeutic treatment or weight-loss tool are still spending quite a small minority of their time at cold temperatures compared to an inhabitant of the Arctic or Antarctic.

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on March 12, 2012
at 10:57 PM

Quilt-"I love simple thinking" - no kidding...

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on March 12, 2012
at 01:59 PM

Pandas remain cute, round and furry whatever the temperature :)

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on March 13, 2012
at 04:53 PM

I thought maybe I should add that the main point of this answer was that using non-human animals as examples is not very useful.

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on March 12, 2012
at 11:15 PM

Quilt-"I love simple thinking" no kidding... And apparently just looking at pictures without bothering to read the words.

66e6b190e62fb3bcf42d4c60801c7bf6

(12407)

on March 12, 2012
at 12:36 PM

what about pandas???

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on March 12, 2012
at 11:11 PM

Did the cold thermogenesis rewire you humour pathways? :)

D10ca8d11301c2f4993ac2279ce4b930

(5242)

on March 12, 2012
at 11:30 PM

Fractal, fractal, ratio. NASA. Thermal. Uncoupling. Simple-minded. Insult, insult. Continuum. I'm so smart!

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on March 12, 2012
at 10:54 PM

So deep marine mammals equal land based mammals now? I love simple thinking. It leaves you with simple results. You do what you are doing and I'll do what I am. Deep marine mammals have huge 03 to 06 ratios. Land based mammals have a 4:1 ratio. Those like the walrus alter theirs depending upon season. Yes, season. Matt does not get how mammals are all on continuum but they all use the same fractal biochemical design.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on March 13, 2012
at 05:13 PM

Quilt, Also I was actually agreeing with you that I don't think therapeutic cold exposure is going to increase body fat.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on March 16, 2012
at 11:41 PM

You missed out on a lot of history with this one PaleoBarbie.

06c0ce9ada45c9680344e22e28b3960f

on March 16, 2012
at 08:37 PM

Can I just say that some of you are not being cool right now? The name-calling is appalling to me (a newbie to PH)...

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on March 17, 2012
at 03:14 PM

Welcome PaleoBarbie. Don't let it scare you away.

21
9e20abb05f3f6e3cc4bb107f8980aecd

on March 11, 2012
at 07:58 PM

I think there is sure to be lots of individual variability, and interactions with diet, infection status, and other health factors (eg thyroid status).

Cold exposure will definitely tend to increase the mitochondrial content of subcutaneous "brown" adipose tissue, to support heat production. But it's not obvious that body temperature regulation would require more cells or bigger cells. Maybe brown fat increases, maybe it doesn't. In calorie deficit it might decrease.

In visceral adipose tissue, the increased caloric expenditure during cold exposure will tend to reduce fat mass. However, it will also increase appetite, reducing the expected weight loss. But even the tendency to lose weight may not be a guaranteed outcome. This gets back into the central obesity issues. If you're already successfully losing weight via calorie restriction, then cold exposure will accelerate it. But can we say that cold exposure in someone who's not losing weight will shift the balance from weight gain/maintenance to weight loss? I don't think so. There are many possible regulatory responses and it might just lead to appetite increases or decreases in other forms of energy expenditure.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on March 12, 2012
at 03:42 AM

otoh, people who subject themselves to cold exposure are probably less successful with more traditional methods. There are tons of motivated fat people, they just aren't finding success with a variety of methods.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on March 11, 2012
at 08:49 PM

That last part is key! Cold exposure as an adjunct to calorie restriction is one thing, but as a strategy for someone who is not losing weight...not sure. People who lose weight do a lot of things at once, and those who comment on their results online may attribute weight loss to the most extreme part (cold baths). Also, people who use cold exposure are likely more motivated to lose weight than those who are not willing to dip themselves naked into freezing water.

10
Da3d4a6835c0f5256b2ef829b3ba3393

on March 11, 2012
at 01:49 AM

I heard that Kraken guy say that. I trust the Kraken.

The Kraken:

does-the-quilt's-cold-therapy-protocol-increase-subcutaneous-fat?

97ffbac59e88bdff6495d0a9b6f70ff7

(555)

on March 11, 2012
at 07:53 AM

Why is that Jay?

1a641bbff1a7b0a70f08410376bbdf6b

(1587)

on March 11, 2012
at 12:33 PM

I guess Jay means he may seem a little arrogant to some people at first. Personally, I think he is awesome and very open minded. When he heard about banana boy's diet on the "Ask the low carb experts" podcast he didn't just say how stupid it is, he was quite interested in it and said it's great if it works for him and his type of physical activity

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on March 11, 2012
at 08:49 PM

He is arrogant. Probably a douche as well. That's one smart dude though. And he's generally right about a whole lot of stuff. And he's good friends with Gary Taubes so I pretty much believe whatever he says about just about anything.

35a8b223ae5d863f17a8c9e3a8eed5eb

(571)

on March 11, 2012
at 09:46 AM

yea, y is that? I'm curious too

4781cf8ae1bfcb558dfb056af17bea94

(4359)

on March 11, 2012
at 03:28 PM

Yes, that's it - he seems arrogant.

4781cf8ae1bfcb558dfb056af17bea94

(4359)

on March 11, 2012
at 04:44 AM

Really? He seems like a douche to me.

97ffbac59e88bdff6495d0a9b6f70ff7

(555)

on March 11, 2012
at 04:39 AM

Lalonde is the man. One of the few in my opinion who consistently approaches diet scientifically.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on March 12, 2012
at 03:23 AM

maybe so, but this question isn't necessarily about diet

9
34b560c8b9ce660d7839fb7e29d7be89

on March 11, 2012
at 05:13 AM

I think it may depend on the individual. The primary ways that humans adapt to cold, not including technology like clothing or culture like communal sleeping, is through; increased metabolic rate, changes in blood flow, and increased fat surrounding the organs. The Inuit and Indians of Tierra del Fuego eat high calorie, high fat foods to increase metabolic rate. The Ju/'hoansi and Aborigines tend to have fat insulating their vital organs and decreased blood flow to the skin at night.

Source

Anecdotally I can say that when I was younger some of us surfed off the coast of NW Washington and most of my friends were the leanest they've ever been during that time. Interestingly one of them was an Inuit and he and myself were the only ones I ever saw who didn't wear wetsuits. My highschool art teacher was Hawaiian and claimed that Polynesians had a tendency to store fat subcutaneously due to frequent exposure to the sea.

I do remember being ravenous after an afternoon at the beach and eating a lot as a result. Personally I have no doubt that lengthy exposure to cold will use more calories but eating to excess could lead to a changeS in the way fat is stored, although I don't have anything to cite saying so. Perhaps there is something to ones diet in addition to CT that makes a difference but some populations may simply react differently.

Medium avatar

(2169)

on May 04, 2012
at 12:02 AM

to play devil's advocate- it's possible that your friends were the leanest you've ever seen them because they were young and they were surfing regularly.

34b560c8b9ce660d7839fb7e29d7be89

on May 04, 2012
at 09:19 PM

@WayfinderAli- Well that's sort of implied, I didn't mean to claim that it was because of the cold, only that the cold didn't increase subcutaneous fat by any means either. The increased appetite I noted makes me think that extra calories are expended but that over eating may result in a net gain. Further I suggest that if it did lead to fat gain it would be interesting to know if CT resulted in a different distribution pattern or whether it varied by population at all.

9
21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on March 11, 2012
at 02:55 AM

I have seen good arguments for both sides. Here is one that is pro-cold:

"It might be thought that a thick layer of subcutaneous fat would be an advantage when adapting to avery cold climate....although this change has adverse consequences for manual dexterity. The very low skinfold readings of traditional Inuit is one strong argument against he view that fat accumulating has any great adaptive value in the cold..."

I also saw one that was anti-cold, but I can't find the link now!

EDIT: Here's one:
The thickness of subcutaneous fat in long-distance swimmers is apparently double that of regular people. And the water's not very cold. So wouldn't the effect be even larger if the water was cold?

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on March 12, 2012
at 03:28 AM

perhaps the relationship is not linear

Medium avatar

(19479)

on March 11, 2012
at 08:27 PM

While sea mammals (and arctic mammals in general) develop thick layers of blubber, humans in similar environments may not have to. The "adaptation" that humans made was to wear the winter coats of other animals and to develop technologies (like the construction of igloos) to maintain a normal body temperature. I wonder if thicker subcutaneous fat deposits in long distance swimmers are simply correlated in the way that being tall is correlated to playing professional basketball. What say you Kamal?

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on March 11, 2012
at 03:20 AM

Men do lose fat with cold submersion at a quicker rate than women--which I posted on Quilt's twitter yesterday. Your reasoning seems sound to me. Cold submersion is intriguing, and I tried it after hearing about it in Tim Ferris's 4 hour body, but I don't see it passing the "be natural and take it easy" test. For fat loss, I'd rather do light walking (burns the same amount of calories, as per study I posted on Kruse's twitter). For health, I'd rather try to lower stress and eat a simple diet with macro and micronutritous foods.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on March 11, 2012
at 03:21 AM

And "that doesn't apply to people who are cold-adapated" cannot answer everything, no? A bit of a deux ex machina without sound reasoning. Although I'm totally open to some more sound reasoning.

80890193d74240cab6dda920665bfb6c

(1528)

on March 11, 2012
at 03:11 AM

I see on google scholar a somewhat convoluted 1962 study of female Korean sea divers that suggests the reason women dove instead of men was their increased body fat allowed them to stand the cold longer, and that female divers had more fat than nondivers. So it looks like that while Quilt's ideas may or may not work for men, it probably puts fat on us ladies (unless you want to argue that Koreans have unique genetics), which would make sense from an evolution point of view. We gotta be able to make da babies despite the environment - lay on the fat girlfriend!

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on March 12, 2012
at 10:57 PM

..could be a bathtub curve, cold of course :)

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on March 11, 2012
at 08:52 PM

That's an interested point FED. Humans certainly have an adaptive advantage that other animals don't have...but I would think that subcutaneous fat (to a small extent) would be much more helpful in northern latitudes than at the equator. That skirts the issue of genetic variation though--cold adaptation within cultures is different than within a given individual. As far as swimmers, you would think that endurance and drive is what leads one to become a competitive swimmer, not ability to store subcutaneous fat :)

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on March 12, 2012
at 03:15 PM

Good point Loon. Could be exponential, display a spline...:)

7
183f5c49a7a9548b6f5238d1f33cb35e

on March 13, 2012
at 02:23 AM

Alls I know is that since giving Dr K's CT protocol a shot, my belly fat has dramatically decreased ~ that diet/exercise/leptin reset alone would not touch. Also began sleeping heaps better since starting - before I would wake up once in the night at least to go and pee, but now I am in a coma from a few minutes after my head touches the pillow until sunrise. The only downside from the rapid fat loss is a mild upset stomach/diarrhea. Muscles on my arms and legs are also popping due to fat loss, and the muscles themselves are even looking bigger despite hardly exercising these past few weeks - that is a strange one. Also noticing small hormonal lady-related things changing for the better since starting CT.

I've only done the face dunks and ice packs to the belly, plus cold showers. I'm slowly working my way up to the baths as I don't want to hurt myself. I say meh, why not give it a go if you are curious.

06c0ce9ada45c9680344e22e28b3960f

on March 16, 2012
at 09:27 PM

I am seeing the same results (44 year old female here). One thing additional: my Achilles tendon (awaiting surgery) seems to be repairing itself, and a back pull (that I get regularly) is healing I would say 2-3x faster than usual. I have been trying cold thermomgenesis for 10 days (baths). Anecdotal n=1, I know :)

183f5c49a7a9548b6f5238d1f33cb35e

(1716)

on March 17, 2012
at 04:13 AM

Great stuff paleobarbie! How are you cooling down the water in the tub? I am having a bit of a conundrum as I only have a tiny freezer in my apartment. Might have to resort to getting bags of ice from the local minimart for these icebaths.....

183f5c49a7a9548b6f5238d1f33cb35e

(1716)

on May 04, 2012
at 09:06 PM

In the last 2 weeks, I have done cold water baths - I sit in the tub and fill it up until just under my boobs and stay in for about 45 mins. I have only done 2 baths so far with no ice, just cold water - going to lower the temp gradually with ice over the next few weeks. The baths feel wonderful so far and they really help my leg/thigh edema. I wear a beanie while in the tub and I feel this helps tolerate the cold water better. I still ice the belly for about 1.5 hours each morning. Maybe you should only soak half your body to prevent boob shrinkage?

183f5c49a7a9548b6f5238d1f33cb35e

(1716)

on May 04, 2012
at 09:06 PM

I wear spanx that comes up to just under my boobs, then I put the ice packs on my belly, then put on my swimsuit to create an ice sandwich on my torso (Never ever put the packs directly on skin! And I think that a compression garment as your first layer helps a lot) I started off wearing the ice suit about 1 hour each day. I have currently ramped it up to 1.5 hours at the moment. Interestingly, I have been amenorrheic since October last year, since doing the Leptin Reset.

183f5c49a7a9548b6f5238d1f33cb35e

(1716)

on May 04, 2012
at 09:06 PM

I don't know why I lost my period - possible factors include going low carb, losing lots of body fat (which have both historically affected my cycle) or perhaps some mysterious hypothalamic rewiring. Started using ice packs 24th Feb - Period came back on April 15th. Everyone laughed at my ice suit but now I am normal - so nyah. Currently, I only take cold showers except for about 3 times per week when I wash my hair. I don't think its a good idea to submerge your entire head in ice cold water.

Medium avatar

(2169)

on May 04, 2012
at 12:07 AM

Grottenolm- I've been considering starting CT for a little while but haven't taken the plunge (tehe) What are you doing during your cold exposure- did you first do face dunks and then move on to ice packs to the belly? How long do you leave your ice bags on? Did you notice changes when you do/wer doing just face dunks? How long are your cold showers and do they accompany the ice packs to the belly? I'm worried about loosing breast tissue (IE fat) doing a full tub soak. What do you think?

183f5c49a7a9548b6f5238d1f33cb35e

(1716)

on May 04, 2012
at 09:05 PM

Hi WayfinderAli! I started in Mid February by doing only face dunks, after breakfast, for about 2 weeks. I did it about 4 times per week, in a large bowl filled with Ice and water. Just my face, up till the hairline, for as long as I could hold my breath. Did this for about 5 times (breaths) per session, and afterwards my face was bright red. I then purchased some ice packs on Feb 24th, and started icing my belly - not my entire torso but just the front and sides. Still did a couple more face dunks but stopped them and moved onto only belly icing.

7
246ebf68e35743f62e5e187891b9cba0

(21430)

on March 11, 2012
at 02:18 AM

Here is my conclusion from a few years experience on contrast showers and cold immersion while living in a semitropical climate.

  1. Pre-bedtime cold shower improves quality of sleep. This may just be me, but I do not sleep well when warm.

  2. Cold water (what we consider cold would be lukewarm to a Northerner), has resulted in greatly increased appetite which I consider a marker of increased metabolism.

  3. Workout recovery is awesome when combining the two, for instance postworkout I jump in a cold pool, and stay in there until I my core has dropped in temperature (basically when my organs and internals start shivering). I then go into a hot tub until a sweat breaks, then back into the pool to cool back down. 30 minutes or so, about 10 for each... pays in dividends from the decreased soreness the next day.

I do not know if prolonged cold exposure would cause you to retain fat, but since I started regularly employing the prebed showers, the scale has been steadily moving in the downward direction.

A3bb2c70384b0664a933b45739bac32c

(951)

on March 13, 2012
at 06:52 PM

This was also my line of thinking. After workout I usually take the hottest shower I can stand to get clean then turn it cold until my muscles feel cooled.

6
96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19463)

on March 13, 2012
at 01:31 PM

I think explaining this in terms of other mammals isn't going to work. We're not panthers, or hippos, or polar bears. We may share certain adaptations in common with them, but we are not them. While we may have certain genes in common, our versions may differ. We did exist as hominids during the ice ages, so our adaptations are possibly different than a polar bear's.

Non-polar bears will hibernate, while polar bears do not. As far as I know, we don't - so just comparing us to bears is not a good path because even there, there is variability.

Some of us will be better suited for cold environments, others for warm ones. However, most living humans today would have had some ancestors that had to survive the ice ages, so there may well be mechanisms where we trigger cold resistance.

Whether or not this will create sub-cutaneous fat remains to be seen. I imagine that professional swimmers are very different from, say, for example me. I have a couple of inches of belly fat and love handles that I'd like to get rid of, and it's all subcutaneous fat. I did not gain those inches by exposure to extreme cold - of that I can assure you.

Perhaps it's a U-shaped thing. Perhaps, if you're warm adapted, and you start exposing yourself to cold, your mitochondria kick in and make a lot of heat to keep your temperature from dropping too far, and thus there's an over all fat loss.

But, maybe, if you go to the right side of the curve, perhaps your body will start to put on a layer of subcutaneous fat in order to insulate better - as in the swimmers mentioned earlier.

Either way, it's too early to tell for myself. I noticed more cold immunity last winter before Dr. Kruse released his CT posts. I take it that's more along the lines of having been on paleo for long enough to heal my thyroid and thus have better temperature regulation than before. But now, it's a lot more interesting...

Or perhaps, it's the higher intake of fish oil that caused my cold resistance? I don't know. Then again if PUFAs are the key, then someone who gets their PUFAs from corn or soy oil should be cold adapted, and it seems they are not, or we'd see far less obese SAD eaters bundled up. (Or maybe their fat composition is mostly saturated fats since they mostly eat carbs.)

I'm not yet ready to immerse myself in a bathtub of ice, but so far, just taking cold showers and wearing less outer wear. i.e. went outside with just a t-shirt on when it was 40 degrees and read a book on a bench for 30 minutes.

It will be interesting if it has an effect, but it's too early to tell. OTOH, this will get harder as we've not had much of a winter here, and spring is coming, so I'll need to get more cold showers and start on the ice bath thing.

So then, what are the mechanisms for gaining subcutaneous fat vs visceral fat? Does temperature affect it? Is that a U curve?

There's a lot of moving parts to this thing folks, so it's hard to find the exact answer.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on March 13, 2012
at 02:46 PM

Very well thought out!

F0e558010a2ecb31fa37b7c491596b8e

(3850)

on March 21, 2012
at 08:37 PM

I was thinking the same thing, but you stated it very well. I'm feeling more able to handle the cold now than before, and I'm curious how this will play out.

5
9b0a4701e373d4dd13831cfb9b13f42d

(1677)

on March 21, 2012
at 04:22 PM

I will add my .2 cents and say that while participating in a very physically stressful training program I was consistently exposed to bone chilling waters of the mighty Pacific ocean (58-65 degrees) for about six months, rite up to the edge of hypothermia. Listless responses, loss of motor control, uncontrollable shaking, not being able to remember where you are or your middle name daily :-) (seriously). This was monitored by docs who would occasionally want to check your core temp if you were acting too retarded.

In all 19 guys that finished this "experiment" (out of the 108 original men that started) I noticed little or no difference in body fat percentage. I did however notice that everyone filled out a little more with muscle or perhaps a thin layer of protective fat? I did notice most of the really lean guys and 100% of the African American "test subject" decided to leave because of the cold water. In the end I remember having a conversation with another guy about how nobody was extremely lean though all in very good shape at the end.

While I like many of Dr.Kruse ideas regarding the Leptin reset protocol, my n=1 experience is just different than what is being suggested. People also forget that cold waters also an amazing stressor that your never become accustomed to, I have seen cold water make cowards of some of the biggest and strongest men Ive ever known but thats completely besides the point.

I believe my bodies immediate response to cold water is a survival strategy for the occasional fall into an ice creek or breaking through the ice on a frozen lake. I view it similar to adrenaline, its there to help you out in a bad situation but if consistently used it become a serious stressor to the organism.

People seem to have enough stress today and cold water immersion would just be another one to complicate things. It should be noted that I am much leaner no than I was at the end of the 6 months.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on March 21, 2012
at 05:42 PM

Awesome anecdote :)

9b0a4701e373d4dd13831cfb9b13f42d

(1677)

on March 22, 2012
at 02:06 AM

I was eating SAD, the community was just starting to move toward cross fit/Olympic lifts and Paleo. Now they've hired the best strength and conditioning coaches/nutritionists money could buy. They even send out Robb Wolfe, Dan John, MoveNat etc to to try and get the highest level of performance out of each individual.

Medium avatar

(4878)

on March 21, 2012
at 05:02 PM

Cory, Congrats on being one of the few to survive that program. What was your diet on Coronado? I'm guessing (based on my sister's military experience) that it wasn't high fat, high protein, low carb. You also were subjected to sleep deprivation which is part of the uncoupling that The Quilt writes about. Although your experience used cold water, it wasn't close to what his CT protocol suggests which is a combination of Diet, lifestyle, and CT.

Medium avatar

(4878)

on March 22, 2012
at 06:04 PM

Glad to hear they're adopting Paleo, I've actually found the Military to be amazingly good at adopting new strategies and taking very calculated risks that are not seen in corporate America or other government orgs. Thank you for your service.

5
518bce04b12cd77741237e1f61075194

(11577)

on March 13, 2012
at 02:10 AM

I know from my experience that during and after surfing season, I feel like I'm radiating heat and get hungrier than after any other activity. The warm radiating is odd, bits you would think of as having fat on them (breasts, hips, belly) get hot to the touch, and it lasts for hours afterwards, even days. We sometimes joke about "warm brownies", as the brown fat radiating heat from the surfers. Even when I'm surfing nearly daily, all I do is lean right out in a way I never would otherwise. So that seems to be a n=1 point for cold therapy helping fat loss.

But getting me to get into a cold shower during a Montreal winter? I would rather carry 5 lbs around with me, thank you very much.

9b0a4701e373d4dd13831cfb9b13f42d

(1677)

on March 21, 2012
at 03:57 PM

Skinning it or with a wet suit?

518bce04b12cd77741237e1f61075194

(11577)

on March 21, 2012
at 05:40 PM

I use a shorty wet suit for the summer for water around 15-17 degrees Celcius, and a full suit for winter at around 8 degrees C (usually a hood and 3cm boots too). I would say for most years the water temp maxes out at 16 degrees in August, maybe hits an extreme every once in a while. It is pretty cold year round though, not "light dip" kind of coast.

5
F3920b85be76a5d8cf466d805bfb99e4

(638)

on March 11, 2012
at 04:41 AM

He says on his blog that it does increase subcutaneous fat. And there are enough credible studies that also point toward an increase in subcutaneous fat. So I think it's probably safe to say, that it increases subcutaneous fat. I think it's also safe to say, based on credible studies, that it also increases brown fat, and increased brown fat activity has an adverse effect on white visceral fat... which is a good thing. I'm trying a cool rinse after my regular shower these days, and a daily walk without a coat through the industrial warehouse cooler at my workplace. I will probably add more swimming to my activity schedule too.

80890193d74240cab6dda920665bfb6c

(1528)

on March 11, 2012
at 05:10 AM

Why do you want more subcutaneous fat, Lisa? I'm really curious. Myself, I hate my little "jelly belly" and work like a dog to lose it by exercise. What is the advantage of gaining it?

F3920b85be76a5d8cf466d805bfb99e4

(638)

on March 11, 2012
at 05:40 PM

@Wowza, I want more brown fat and less visceral fat, and if I get a touch more subcutaneous fat in the trade off then I will still be better off.... because that visceral fat is a killer. Plus, I want to be able to button my skinny jeans that fit in the legs & hips but not at the stomach.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on March 11, 2012
at 01:01 PM

Not that I'm advising it, but if a cold protocol decreased visceral fat at the expense of subcutaneous fat, that might be a worthwhile health tradeoff.

5e36f73c3f95eb4ea13a009f4936449f

(8280)

on March 12, 2012
at 01:41 PM

Quick googling indicates that they're getting pretty old on average. No new young ones to replace them (I guess they're not masochistic enough :) ). So on the positive side, in the 80's. However, it's not very scientific. The issue is, do they all really live longer, or is it just the ones we're hearing about living longer? Also, I wasn't able to find anything on their diet. Probably a lot of seafood and fats, but no info on carbs, etc.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on March 12, 2012
at 10:58 PM

well, we can probably figure out that we aren't hearing anything from those who are dead

1805757a5926dffa9ef875a81725e078

(20)

on March 11, 2012
at 05:13 PM

agreed Beth, definitely a good trade off. and keep in mind that loss of visceral is not the only benefit of cold therapy. my thought with this is like anything else... give it a fair try and if you don't like the effects, stop.

80890193d74240cab6dda920665bfb6c

(1528)

on March 11, 2012
at 07:54 PM

Hi Lisa, as you know, this is a well-trod path. The champions of cold water have long been women - Korean urchin divers, Japanese pearl divers, Greek sponge divers. For millennia there've been free-diving women who spend hours in the cold sea. And I have news for you - they had quite a lot of subcutaneous fat. More than a touch. They were rounded ladies; they were well-studied by the early scuba folks. Nonetheless, I hope your N=1 is successful and you reach your goals.

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on March 12, 2012
at 03:30 AM

wowza, how was their lifespan?

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on April 11, 2012
at 05:03 PM

Ummmmm... I just google image searched those pearl divers and those women don't look "chubby" to me. They appear to be very muscular with well placed fat deposits on their buttocks and thighs but nothing that could be interpreted as overweight. I'm confused at what the fat loss goals you guys have in mind for women in their child bearing years.

4
D07a525f9021f8d72bf6aaa52893c795

(1011)

on March 13, 2012
at 09:06 AM

Chipping in :)

The temporary fat shredding effect of cold induced thermogenesis will not alter the set point. This can only be achieved by addressing metabolic imbalance - and not by cold showers etc. As PJ obeserves, CT will stimulate appetite - the set point in action. In many respects, CT is just like exercise.

Concluding SQ fat loss of hibernating animals means we can use CT to lose fat is barking up the wrong tree. Hibernating animals lose SQ fat because they are FASTING!!

Longer term, ie habituated, cold exposure does increase SQ fat - the evidence is everywhere.

This little "rant" does NOT mean to say CT isn't beneficial - short term CT such as cold showers, do seem to be beneficial in the hormetic sense. Todd Becker's blog is a great place to go look.

3
E753cf7753e7be889ca68b1a4203483f

on March 19, 2012
at 08:35 PM

A lot of answers to a simple question! In itself cold exposure will do little or nothing to total amount of fat or it's distribution. It can be likened to low intensity exercise, that burns calories (mostly fat calories), and increases appetite accordingly! Combined with dietary control it can increase fat loss.

2
3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on March 11, 2012
at 01:53 AM

I'm just gonna throw off the top of my head it would make sense if it reduced fat when only done for short intense sessions, but increase with chronic exposure. Just makes the most sense to me.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on March 11, 2012
at 12:50 PM

That's essentially what Mat Lalonde said in his Jimmy Moore podcast ... chronic exposure leads to a fat layer for protection, a la the Inuit. He also advised folks putting ice packs on their backs (a la Ferriss' 4 Hour Body) to avoid freezing their soft tissue!

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on March 11, 2012
at 06:46 PM

Hmmm....maybe that guys is smart.....seeing as he agrees with me and all :).

1
C86a5ba9f7547eefb7480de9608f04b9

on May 08, 2012
at 03:52 PM

I agree...men and women are different..forget about the mammals in hot or cold environment...just look at the olympic swimmers or any professional swimmers... Men always look lean but women always appear to be chunkier from obviously subcutaneous fat layer...I m sure they became like that...it's not that chunkier girls go for swimming career...

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 08, 2012
at 05:26 PM

As a former competitive swimmer for many years, I am aware of this phenomenon. The coaches would often make girls do extra cardio on land to get leaner. It might be that cold water makes more SQ, but swimming in cold water is a strong appetite stimulant, and girls may overcompensate. Because girls have a harder time building muslce than guys, the extra cals might be more readily partitioned into fat as opposed to guys who may not overcompensate or who may have those extra cals more readily taken up by muscle cells.

0
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on March 21, 2012
at 03:32 PM

Really i am impressed from this post….the person who create this post he is a great human..thanks for shared this with us.i found this informative and interesting blog so i think its very useful and knowledge able.

-1
Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on March 11, 2012
at 01:17 PM

Matt needs to go across the Harvard square and talk to the Harvard researcher who proved he is dead wrong in the cold.......Zeltiq was invented at Harvard and studied at MGH. In a warm adapted mammal you get SQ fat. In the cold adpated mammal you shred it. If Matt was correct, and yes I am saying he is NOT, all hibernating mammals should emerge from their dens with tons of SQ fat.......and they do not. That means what Matt believes has to be questioned. Zeltiq take warm adapted mammals and in 45 minutes still makes the biology work to shred fat.....Why? Because it uses metal plates to conduct the cold and not air or water. Air or water is how life uses this pathway.

As I said.......question everyone even the Kracken. When it comes to published research vs Evolutionary biology I use EB as my ultimate guide and I think Matt is a slave to research too often. Even research can make huge errors in assumptions. Just look at the cholesterol data as proof positive. There is no better RCT in human history in my view.

What Matt believes is not true in cold adapted humans or mammals. Put on the Discovery Channel or Animal Planet and see who is right......Matt or Mother Nature?

this is not a Dr. Kruse vs Matt issue.......Matt has to explain cold adpated mammalian biology. His theory make no sense when you look at real life in the polar regions. It makes sense when you look at modern humans who are completely mismatched in their environment and in their genes.

I hope you all begin to think about this. Paleo dogma follows its leaders. I follow evolution. And when I am done with this whole series you will see that is factual.

E4f858a9178422502c42b9719690e52c

(603)

on March 11, 2012
at 02:43 PM

"If Matt was correct, and yes I am saying he is NOT, all hibernating mammals should emerge from their dens with tons of SQ fat.......and they do not" They don't eat anything! Isn't an Inuit person living a traditional lifestyle a closer comparison than a hibernating animal mammal?

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on March 11, 2012
at 07:07 PM

Watching Animal Planet does qualify you as an expert in Evolutionary Biology.

E4f858a9178422502c42b9719690e52c

(603)

on March 11, 2012
at 02:45 PM

"animal mammal"... meant to delete the word animal there... :)

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on March 11, 2012
at 03:33 PM

I am very confused by this subject. There are a host of benefits to cold thermogenesis, increasing BAT etc. However, so many people are doing this for the weight loss benefits as well. If there is a chance that it sabotages those efforts, people are going to be pretty cranky. Anyway, I am vexed by this paper that says that women and men react almost oppositely to cold exposure - men increase lean and women increase fat. These are in Arctic cold adapted people. Can you speak to this? http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22223/abstract

F3920b85be76a5d8cf466d805bfb99e4

(638)

on March 11, 2012
at 05:48 PM

"This is not the same as the development of brown fat, caused by regular exposure to cold temperatures, which metabolizes both glucose and white fat to produce body heat at lower temperatures." Would that not be a good choice for a fat diabetic or pre-diabetic (along with a paleo diet) ?

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on March 11, 2012
at 06:46 PM

Evolutionary biology is only useful as a guide if you already have a good understand of evolutionary biology.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 11, 2012
at 08:30 PM

http://www.pinniped.net/leonardara2005.pdf

Ee70ee808f748374744404a00e1c22ed

(1163)

on March 11, 2012
at 05:17 PM

Zeltiq is cryptolypolysis- skin cells can tolerate colder temperatures without destruction than fat cells, so an application of a certain range of temperatures can essentially get rid of fat. This is not the same as the development of brown fat, caused by regular exposure to cold temperatures, which metabolizes both glucose and white fat to produce body heat at lower temperatures. I don't think that Zeltiq proves much at all about cold adaption, or is very applicable to this discussion. Also, I agree with orust; hibernating animals are not a very good example. Animals do not emerge...

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on March 11, 2012
at 07:11 PM

Watching Animal Planet does not qualify you as an expert in Evolutionary Biology.

9e20abb05f3f6e3cc4bb107f8980aecd

(5939)

on March 11, 2012
at 07:59 PM

Dumb question: Are polar bears, arctic seals, walruses, sea lions, and whales fat? Are they cold adapted or warm adapted?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 11, 2012
at 08:25 PM

Is there any evidence that cold exposure increases BAT in adult humans?

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on March 11, 2012
at 09:34 PM

Panthers are pretty lean. I think they're warm adapted. Masai are pretty lean. I think they're warm adapted. Usain Bolt is pretty lean. I think he's warm adapted. Hmmmm....

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on March 11, 2012
at 09:48 PM

The polar bears, artic seals, et al forgot to take their HCG injections.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on March 12, 2012
at 01:09 AM

Is there any evidence at all that spending time in icy water increases fat at all? I don't think there is. I think there is some PRELIMINARY evidence it activates BAT, not that it increases it.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on March 11, 2012
at 06:45 PM

Evolutionary biology can only be used as a guide if you have a good understand of evolutionary biology.

Ee70ee808f748374744404a00e1c22ed

(1163)

on March 11, 2012
at 05:25 PM

...with fat stores because in many cases they are existing solely on their stores of fat while hibernating, not because of exposure to cold. Inuits would provide a much more applicable example, being 1)human, 2)conscious and active under chronic cold exposure, and 3)the subjects of previous studies on this very subject.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on March 11, 2012
at 06:43 PM

Evolutionary biology can only be used as a guide if you good understand of evolutionary biology.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on March 12, 2012
at 03:16 PM

Melissa- I think it's two separate questions: acute effects of a bout of cold water vs chronic effects of many many bouts of cold exposure in general. The second scenario doesn't seem to have any evidence, so we speculate madly!

8949bf87b0e0aefcad10f29975e4fa2b

(8989)

on March 12, 2012
at 11:00 PM

panthers haven't accumulated all the "mismatches". Personally, I have never seen the panthers in my area on their iphones after sunset.

80890193d74240cab6dda920665bfb6c

(1528)

on March 11, 2012
at 07:26 PM

It's obvious that women have to put on fat in harsh environments if at all possible. Let's get real - we women didn't evolve to be shredded. We evolved to carry enough fat to get preggers and sustain the baby at all times. We evolved to be fertile every month unlike our other monkey relatives and to protect our fertility at all times. Harsh environment is going to trigger a fat-laydown response in us - our body will protect fertility. This is why Inuit women are fat like the Korean divers. Quilt just doesn't seem to think the ladies exist or that we have different evolutionary goals than men.

1805757a5926dffa9ef875a81725e078

(20)

on March 11, 2012
at 10:36 PM

dumber questions: are people arguing that setting my fat arse in a cold tub of water (50-55F) for minutes a day (45 shooting for 60-90) will make me look like a walrus? is it possible that there is difference between my aquatic life & that of mammals that spend a huge portion of their life in much colder water & when they're not in that icy water often hang out on ice & snow? is it possible that there is more than one way to lose weight & be healthy? is it mandatory to thoughtlessly crap on ideas that don't fit your paradigm? ya think maybe i'll be okay if i keep wearing my toque?

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on March 13, 2012
at 12:19 AM

Do SAD panthers benefit from cold baths? Time to visit the zoo and ask cryptic questions to the zookeeper.

7dc950fc76a046048e683d2a27dced37

on March 13, 2012
at 12:33 PM

But isn't a CT protocol (Todd Becker's cold showers or the Quilt's ice baths) somewhere between acute and chronic? The folks who do the polar bear plunges on New Years are an example of the former, the folks who pearl dive are the latter. Are there examples (in nature or otherwise) in between?

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on March 13, 2012
at 02:49 PM

Wowza- I meant lack of evidence on subcutaneous fat from chronic cold exposure (in an experimental setting, to avoid confounders). Good article though.

80890193d74240cab6dda920665bfb6c

(1528)

on March 13, 2012
at 02:22 AM

Kamal, what do you mean there's no evidence of what happens to women with chronic exposure to cold water? Google for pix of the Japanese pearl divers, the ama, from the 40s and 50s, a time before Japan adopted a more Western-style diet. They iz chunky broads. Also Google the 1962 study of Korean divers, and of course here: http://www.wemjournal.org/article/S1080-6032(03)70033-7/fulltext

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