1

votes

not drinking enough fluid with meals??

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created October 30, 2012 at 4:09 AM

I know there is a lot of talk about drinking during a meal leading to dilution of stomach acid. I supplement with betaine HCl because I believe I have low stomach acid. However, I was thinking today about the water content of whole foods like tubers, veggies, and even meat, and reflecting on the fact that they tend to have high water content. I have been eating a lot of low-moisture high-fat foods like butter, oils, and cheese, and experiencing delayed gastric emptying. I thought it was best to avoid consuming any liquids around mealtime, but then I thought...

our saliva exists to wet the food and make it mushy...

it all becomes liquid (chyme) anyway...

and there is fluid in whole foods...

so what I'm wondering is could it possibly delay digestion to consume food without ENOUGH water? could eating a bunch of dry/fatty food lead to extra work for the stomach and delayed gastric emptying?

it seems plausible to me. What do you think? In any case, I am going to try to drink a bit with meals and see if it helps.

543a65b3004bf5a51974fbdd60d666bb

(4493)

on November 01, 2012
at 09:47 PM

thx KA24. i may give betaine hcl a go myself, i was reading that stomach acid levels decline as we age, it's discussed here http://chriskresser.com/what-everybody-ought-to-know-but-doesnt-about-heartburn-gerd

Cbdc8318738324492f2d5918868ce4c9

(1211)

on November 01, 2012
at 12:51 PM

"So I think the “beneficial” yeasts will tend to keep harmful bacteria in check, but not harmful fungi. Whether they are beneficial overall depends on one’s personal situation.”

Cbdc8318738324492f2d5918868ce4c9

(1211)

on November 01, 2012
at 12:51 PM

"... standard opinion in the fermented community believe that yeasts in kefir and kombucha are beneficial, and they are for some people – especially those with a bacterial dysbiosis. But I’ve also known cases of people with severe Candida infections developing fungemia after supplementing with Saccharomyces boulardii. Adding any yeast to an existing fungal population will allow gene exchange and will add to the fungal burden. All fungi have ways of suppressing immune response to their benefit, and this will tend to promote growth of all fungal species, not just the one you’re supplementing."

Cbdc8318738324492f2d5918868ce4c9

(1211)

on November 01, 2012
at 12:49 PM

I like the idea of making kombucha and having occasionally, but Paul Jaminet has about the yeast, especially if there is any pre-existing fungus issues.
“The big difference between bacteria and fungi is that we need probiotic bacteria to be healthy, but I’m not aware of evidence that we need probiotic fungi." http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/11/fermented-mixed-vegetables/comment-page-1/#comment-40192

A7768b6c6be7f5d6acc76e5efa66464c

on November 01, 2012
at 12:26 PM

I'm also curious about soup/broth. If "too much" liquid with food dilutes stomach acid, what of foods composed almost entirely of liquid?

A7768b6c6be7f5d6acc76e5efa66464c

on November 01, 2012
at 12:22 PM

@MarkES: Thanks--that was actually the most recent thing I remembered about thirst, but I was too lazy to track down the citation. @nursling: I don't know that we could say it's exactly a myth, but we could say it's an unsubstantiated claim.

Cbdc8318738324492f2d5918868ce4c9

(1211)

on November 01, 2012
at 12:17 PM

"Thirst actually begins when the concentration of blood, an accurate indicator of our state of hydration, has risen by around two percent; experts generally define dehydration as beginning when that concentration has risen by at least five percent. (6) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12376390 So while thirst is a good indicator that a drink would help maintain good hydration, it doesn’t necessarily imply dehydration."

Cbdc8318738324492f2d5918868ce4c9

(1211)

on November 01, 2012
at 12:16 PM

Chris Kresser has some evidence thirst occurs before dehydration http://chriskresser.com/hydration-101-how-much-water-do-you-really-need "While many believe that thirst is an indicator that a person is already dehydrated, this claim has not been substantiated by any research. (5) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12376390

68294383ced9a0eafc16133aa80d1905

(5795)

on November 01, 2012
at 11:42 AM

It may read slightly different than I intended it. I was meaning to say that for someone who is constantly eating a high volume of food, HCL and fluids are critical. Otherwise, you feel full and bloated all the time.

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on November 01, 2012
at 05:22 AM

I haven't tried kombucha with a meal but maybe I will try lemon water and see if that helps. coffee doesn't seem to help me digest though

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on November 01, 2012
at 04:30 AM

I also ready a study that compared high and low viscosity meals' gastric emptying rates and high viscosity had significantly slower emptying. As well, viscous boluses of food require much time and massage to break down in the stomach, which makes me think that a more liquidy bolus, preferably wet with a lot of enzyme-filled saliva rather than water, would digest much more efficiently than food half-chewed and scarfed down dry

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on November 01, 2012
at 04:28 AM

I second daz's question

543a65b3004bf5a51974fbdd60d666bb

(4493)

on November 01, 2012
at 04:02 AM

hi KA24, what do you mean by "...keep the adequate quantity of food rolling in and to minimize 24-hours of constant discomfort as the GI empties...". It sounds of interest to me, but i'm just not sure what you are saying, could you explain a bit more if poss, thx

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on November 01, 2012
at 03:19 AM

I always heard that by the time one feels thirsty, one is already dehydrated. is that a myth?

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4 Answers

2
Cbdc8318738324492f2d5918868ce4c9

(1211)

on November 01, 2012
at 01:48 AM

Yes, there does seem to be info to support Control of Gastric Emptying by adjusting liquids/solids of a meal. Assuming the fast-food examples in this source still apply to whole foods.

not-drinking-enough-fluid-with-meals??

Note the composition of the liquid is a factor and water would empty faster, water content of foods would empty slower.

For liquids, the principal determinant of rate of gastric emptying is volume and, secondarily, composition. If the liquid is low in nutrients (e.g. water), there is an exponential relationship between volume and rate of emptying - large volumes empty at an exponentially faster rate than small volumes.

However, if the fluid is hypertonic or acidic or rich in nutrients such as fat or certain amino acids, the rate of gastric emptying will be considerably slower and non-exponential. Indeed, the rate of gastric emptying of any meal can be predicted rather accurately by knowing its nutrient density.

Also consider the gastric emptying effects on blood glucose levels.

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on November 01, 2012
at 04:30 AM

I also ready a study that compared high and low viscosity meals' gastric emptying rates and high viscosity had significantly slower emptying. As well, viscous boluses of food require much time and massage to break down in the stomach, which makes me think that a more liquidy bolus, preferably wet with a lot of enzyme-filled saliva rather than water, would digest much more efficiently than food half-chewed and scarfed down dry

0
Ba99a15e6bf870b81286791617050593

(671)

on November 01, 2012
at 04:57 AM

Just as interesting a question is what other liquids outside of water facilitate/hinder digestion. A lot of people tout wine but I haven't found that to do much in the way of gastric emptying. What does do the trick is kombucha with a meal. Maybe it's the enzymes, perhaps it's the acidity. I tend to brew mine fairly strong.

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on November 01, 2012
at 05:22 AM

I haven't tried kombucha with a meal but maybe I will try lemon water and see if that helps. coffee doesn't seem to help me digest though

Cbdc8318738324492f2d5918868ce4c9

(1211)

on November 01, 2012
at 12:49 PM

I like the idea of making kombucha and having occasionally, but Paul Jaminet has about the yeast, especially if there is any pre-existing fungus issues.
“The big difference between bacteria and fungi is that we need probiotic bacteria to be healthy, but I’m not aware of evidence that we need probiotic fungi." http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/11/fermented-mixed-vegetables/comment-page-1/#comment-40192

Cbdc8318738324492f2d5918868ce4c9

(1211)

on November 01, 2012
at 12:51 PM

"... standard opinion in the fermented community believe that yeasts in kefir and kombucha are beneficial, and they are for some people – especially those with a bacterial dysbiosis. But I’ve also known cases of people with severe Candida infections developing fungemia after supplementing with Saccharomyces boulardii. Adding any yeast to an existing fungal population will allow gene exchange and will add to the fungal burden. All fungi have ways of suppressing immune response to their benefit, and this will tend to promote growth of all fungal species, not just the one you’re supplementing."

Cbdc8318738324492f2d5918868ce4c9

(1211)

on November 01, 2012
at 12:51 PM

"So I think the “beneficial” yeasts will tend to keep harmful bacteria in check, but not harmful fungi. Whether they are beneficial overall depends on one’s personal situation.”

A7768b6c6be7f5d6acc76e5efa66464c

on November 01, 2012
at 12:26 PM

I'm also curious about soup/broth. If "too much" liquid with food dilutes stomach acid, what of foods composed almost entirely of liquid?

0
68294383ced9a0eafc16133aa80d1905

(5795)

on November 01, 2012
at 01:59 AM

I've heard both sides of the argument. I've tested many different combos as well. Massive meals without liquid. Massive meals with liquid. Massive meals with HCL. Massive meals with HCL and liquid. I can't say I've noticed a huge difference in gastric emptying and more importantly, bowel consistency and timing. This seems to be commonplace if you're gut is "healthy" and adaptable. You're going to be able to digest even large amounts of food as long as you have the proper enzymes. Fluids shouldn't make a huge difference. Now, whether you're absorbing everything from the meal is another story, which is very difficult to test with observation.

I think like many answers, it depends on your goals. Like I said, I've eaten some absolutely ridiculous quantities of food at once and have found both HCL supplementation and consistent fluids are preferred. This is especially true with a ton of protein (some days, upwards of 300 grams). Most bodybuilders would tell you to keep the adequate quantity of food rolling in and to minimize 24-hours of constant discomfort as the GI empties, digestive enzymes and hydration is very crucial.

543a65b3004bf5a51974fbdd60d666bb

(4493)

on November 01, 2012
at 04:02 AM

hi KA24, what do you mean by "...keep the adequate quantity of food rolling in and to minimize 24-hours of constant discomfort as the GI empties...". It sounds of interest to me, but i'm just not sure what you are saying, could you explain a bit more if poss, thx

68294383ced9a0eafc16133aa80d1905

(5795)

on November 01, 2012
at 11:42 AM

It may read slightly different than I intended it. I was meaning to say that for someone who is constantly eating a high volume of food, HCL and fluids are critical. Otherwise, you feel full and bloated all the time.

543a65b3004bf5a51974fbdd60d666bb

(4493)

on November 01, 2012
at 09:47 PM

thx KA24. i may give betaine hcl a go myself, i was reading that stomach acid levels decline as we age, it's discussed here http://chriskresser.com/what-everybody-ought-to-know-but-doesnt-about-heartburn-gerd

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on November 01, 2012
at 04:28 AM

I second daz's question

0
A7768b6c6be7f5d6acc76e5efa66464c

on October 30, 2012
at 11:25 AM

The advice I've generally seen is that if one is not otherwise compromised by a condition that interferes with it, one can generally let thirst guide water consumption. The feeling of thirst kicks in well before dehydration occurs--that is its purpose. Adequate salt intake seems important for sufficient stomach acid production as well.

A7768b6c6be7f5d6acc76e5efa66464c

on November 01, 2012
at 12:22 PM

@MarkES: Thanks--that was actually the most recent thing I remembered about thirst, but I was too lazy to track down the citation. @nursling: I don't know that we could say it's exactly a myth, but we could say it's an unsubstantiated claim.

Cbdc8318738324492f2d5918868ce4c9

(1211)

on November 01, 2012
at 12:16 PM

Chris Kresser has some evidence thirst occurs before dehydration http://chriskresser.com/hydration-101-how-much-water-do-you-really-need "While many believe that thirst is an indicator that a person is already dehydrated, this claim has not been substantiated by any research. (5) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12376390

76211ec5301087de2588cfe3d6bccba9

(1178)

on November 01, 2012
at 03:19 AM

I always heard that by the time one feels thirsty, one is already dehydrated. is that a myth?

Cbdc8318738324492f2d5918868ce4c9

(1211)

on November 01, 2012
at 12:17 PM

"Thirst actually begins when the concentration of blood, an accurate indicator of our state of hydration, has risen by around two percent; experts generally define dehydration as beginning when that concentration has risen by at least five percent. (6) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12376390 So while thirst is a good indicator that a drink would help maintain good hydration, it doesn’t necessarily imply dehydration."

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