4

votes

Fatter and feeling worse on Paleo than when I was vegetarian...

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created January 30, 2011 at 6:07 PM

I've been doing the Paleo thing strict for 45 days now, and not so strict (still was having occasional rice and corn and too much sugar) for 1 month before that. Was vegetarian for 5 years and vegan for 12 before that. I'm gaining weight in my belly. No, it's not just being full, but chub you can grab! I don't eat bacon or highly fatty meats- some chicken that's not grain fed is the only non red lean meat I'm having. Besides fish that is. My only cheat is the last 45 days has been rice bread toast with jelly one night. And I do eat chocolate (it's been in the 75-85% range for years) but not like a bar a day or anything. I'm a coconut fan, I eat lots, but I ate lots when I was vegetarian and raw vegan too. Nuts are part of my daily diet, often in the form of nut milk or butter - lotsa of macadamias in there. Nuts never came up as an allergen for me before on tests, nor did eggs. It takes me about a week and a half to go through 1 dozen eggs.

I do yoga, interval training, and hike several times a week. Same as before I was Paleo. I have had no energy gain, no positive differences. No muscle gain. I have an expanding belly, and have had two gallbladder attacks in the last two months. I was highly prone to them when I ate wheat but not so much since I've been off of it. I have been off wheat and spelt for 4 years, and off gluten for 1. My BMs are also a mess. Sometimes I'll not go for 3 days, then wham! Seven times in one day.

I do not look sexy! I looked in the mirror mid yoga and I have pretty big stomach rolls when bending over. I'm Indian - perhaps we're just really not supposed to eat this way. It's been a while since my ancestors ate this way.

Any thoughts? Advice? Sorry, I see lots of posts on here about transitioning from vegetarianism to Paleo, but not about getting fatter after you do.

1c67bc28f4e44bbb8770b86df0463df3

(6719)

on January 01, 2012
at 02:40 AM

Why would you tell someone that "most chicken is garbage"? What do you want people to eat?

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on March 01, 2011
at 06:03 AM

great book, lots of really good info and recipes in there

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on February 03, 2011
at 06:26 AM

You're probably fine then = )

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on February 01, 2011
at 09:01 PM

Here is another vegan paleo blog http://daiasolgaia.com/

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on February 01, 2011
at 05:51 AM

I tried it today Dexter - my gallbladder almost jumped out of my body!

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on February 01, 2011
at 05:50 AM

Oh, and my Indian relatives that don't have crap like Gulab Jamun are skinny, vegetarian or not. But jeez, some Indians have a wicked sugar tooth!

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on February 01, 2011
at 05:49 AM

Chicken has been a gateway meat for me - hard to go from no meat to cows instantly!

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on February 01, 2011
at 05:47 AM

I had awful awful Gallbladder pains for hours after. It's a no no for sure! Love nuts - soooooo sad to see them go. If I flip flop back to vegetarian, they're definitely gonna be back in rotation, as there was never an issue before.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on February 01, 2011
at 05:46 AM

He seems honest - but ya never know. I actually asked him again today, and he says when he's out of everything else, they'll get millet, but no corn or soy. But otherwise they eat fruit and veggies. Who knows! Thanks for Gene Expression - that addresses some of what I was wondering about. I'm not Hindu anyhow. I'll get some lamb at the Farmer's Market. I eat as much fish as I can stomach, really not a fan. Ghee is a staple already. Ate bacon today for the first time ever - uncured, and I think organic but not sure about that.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on February 01, 2011
at 05:41 AM

Ok, but I really wasn't on a low protein of low fat diet. I ate a lot of healthy fats. I think it's a huge misconception to think vegetarians all eat low-fat and super high carb. My more pressing issue is actually my gallbladder. I was excited to try this diet thinking it would help that, but it's gotten worse than it has in many years. Fitday sounds interesting. I'll check it out.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on February 01, 2011
at 01:41 AM

Why are you eating chicken? Most chicken is garbage.

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on January 31, 2011
at 11:03 PM

I eat 75% fat, 20% protein and less than 5% carbs on a 1800 cal/day regime...mostly salads with lot of olive oil & vinegar, yams with lots of butter, a few veggies with lots of melted butter. Lost 55 pounds-never felt better 38" belt to 31" belt. Absolutely no nuts. They make me feel spacey..even macs. Regarding bacon, how can you say eating bacon and pork just can't be good for you. How do you know until you try it? I have been eating 1/8 pound of bacon each morning along with my 4-6 eggs panfried in coconut oil/bacon fat for over 3 years. Fat is your friend in weight loss.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 31, 2011
at 03:02 PM

Thanks Carly. I was just thinking the same thing when I picked it up again yesterday. I think I will, and just cut out the nuts.

89e238284ccb95b439edcff9e123671e

(10299)

on January 31, 2011
at 01:04 PM

not cool at all! not true at all

2507b557331c8a674bc81197531e609a

(4994)

on January 31, 2011
at 11:03 AM

Sheesh! That's a bit harsh Earl!

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 31, 2011
at 07:03 AM

PS - thank you for the very thorough response.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 31, 2011
at 07:01 AM

Sorry, meant grass fed.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 31, 2011
at 06:38 AM

PS - and I don't mean civilization as Americans have designed it.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 31, 2011
at 06:37 AM

Or, people that could get by on "third world proteins" such as Indians evolved past paleo and neolithic. India is the cradle of civilization, and though it's being wracked by an ever-increasing Western diet, my ancestors were often living to 110. Thanks for your closed minded opinion. Ya wouldn't want to meet me on the street!

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 31, 2011
at 06:34 AM

Couldn't tell ya from a blood test perspective. Way too poor for such things from buying all this meat!

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 31, 2011
at 06:34 AM

Haven't been in a Walmart in 15 years! Mostly farmer's market, going on what they say is grain fed and finished, or free ranged chicken. I don't even want to know what a 12% solution is!

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 31, 2011
at 06:33 AM

Ok, true. I would just be bloated, which I'm not.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 31, 2011
at 06:32 AM

Ok. Off PB, will wipe out pecans and nuts for a while. Some people think stevia helps with insulin levels, others not so much. I haven't done the bowlful things in years - I'm just cranky without chocolate!

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 31, 2011
at 06:30 AM

Nope. No gas, bloating or GB attacks from those as a vegetarian.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 31, 2011
at 06:28 AM

I'm pretty well dis-associated with the mass media image of women. I just feel gross! Why is everyone harping on my nut intake? It was a ONE day example. Most days I just have a scoop of macadamia nut or almond butter. Or some nut milk (NOT processed, freshly made) in tea. That's it. It's a staple, but not a huge portion of my intake. Again, no issue when I was veg. But keeping fat levels consistent throughout the day makes sense to me. I try to mix coconut oil, olive oil, pastured ghee, and palm oil and not just rely on one.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 31, 2011
at 06:23 AM

Oh, so many different opinions. I'm confused. Ok, to answer questions - a sonogram two years ago showed no stones. I can't afford another one of those tests, and I'm assuming none have formed since my GB attacks were pretty much gone until recently. I have intermittent burning pain, but when the two attacks came this month, we're talking thought I was dying kind of attacks. The culprit before was most definitely wheat. I don't feel healthy with this spare tire. I have no interest in looking like a supermodel. I'm pretty buff, and this tire is something I can feel on me at all times.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 31, 2011
at 06:19 AM

Ok. Will try. That's gonna be hard since it definitely is one of my staples. And I kinda wonder why I would bother since it wasn't a problem before. I think I'm just really wanting to return to my old diet but maybe I'll feel differently tomorrow.

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on January 31, 2011
at 05:20 AM

If something is not getting digested, you can't gain adipose tissue from it. It would just pass through but no calories would be extracted.

0bcefaa82dc94f93ce705f86e235f335

(1591)

on January 31, 2011
at 04:15 AM

It depends on your "brand" of Paleo, but most people find that not enough fat derails any progress in terms of weight and health. Most Paleo/PB folks eat as much fat as they want, as long as they're "approved" fats with the right composition. So - lean meats *if* the fat is suspect, but fatty meats if the fat is good fat.

9dbfedbe21eae2a65093f8774ba8ad4d

(559)

on January 31, 2011
at 01:10 AM

I cut out Stevia and all sugar subs because they still trigger an insulin response. I used to have a BAD sweet tooth (imagine making a whole batch of rice crispie treats for oneself!), and since going PaNu all my sugar cravings have disappeared. Once in a while I have tomatoes, apples, or berries, but just a few (not a bowlful like before). I also cut out peanut butter and pecans (my other go-to snack foods) because of the carbs and PUFA's.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 30, 2011
at 11:18 PM

Really not trying to be difficult here, I'm just perpelexed. I don't eat a ton of eggs. Had GB attacks after eating one meal that was just meat, and one that was meat ad veggies. Glad to hear though that you felt better after a few months. When I was veg, my diet was equal amounts protein, fat and carbs.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 30, 2011
at 11:16 PM

I never said I eat them everyday. That was one example of what I had yesterday. I try not to waste things. So if I make nut milk, I'll use the remaining pulp. This morning I had a small omelette and homemade chicken sausage with collard greens.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on January 30, 2011
at 11:15 PM

You most likely won't see a loss just dropping the nuts for a week. It takes your body awhile to catch up to the changes. I would give it at the very least two weeks and you'd probably be better off with a month.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 30, 2011
at 11:14 PM

Read the Paleo Solution. Doesn't he recommend lean meat and wild game, or is my memory just way off. Personally I just don't like high fat meat, and since cows are kind of a man made creation, it seems odd. But I will buy some tomorrow, and if there are no GB attacks, I'll continue. I make ghee from pastured butter. I just like ghee better personally. Thanks for the link. Will dive in!

691f120a3e7a1a036845d105d86c99a3

(3641)

on January 30, 2011
at 09:41 PM

i think eating nut pancakes everyday would make me feel pretty aweful

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 30, 2011
at 09:05 PM

But I don't have much gas, so I don't know.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 30, 2011
at 09:00 PM

I did a candida cleanse a few years back, and have relied mainly on stevia since then, but I'm sure you're right that I'm still getting too much sugar. I have a sweet tooth like nothing else that I have to constantly battle.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 30, 2011
at 08:39 PM

I ate lots and lots of coconut (raw coconuts, shredded, canned, oil, etc.)when I was veg. Definitely moreso than now. When I started that about 8 yrs ago, I lost about 5 lbs that had been hanging around for a while. Not sure what it does in combo with Paleo though.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 30, 2011
at 08:35 PM

And I had thought that Paleo was really more about lean meats and wild game. Am I wrong?

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 30, 2011
at 08:34 PM

Oh yeah. I know the difference. Unfortunately, years of experience with all of this stuff. I take digestive enzymes, but will up the doses. Argh! My poor wallet! Thanks Helen!

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 30, 2011
at 08:32 PM

Ok Helen, but I am almost positive I will have gallbladder attacks from those. I will try it though.

1acc4ee9381d9a8d998b59915b3f997e

(2099)

on January 30, 2011
at 08:22 PM

Are you sure that its your gallbladder and not your pancreas that is causing pain? The reason I ask is because you say the pain comes from meat, and the pancreas secretes the digestive juices that digest protein. Perhaps your pancreas is having a hard time switching over from producing the enzymes needed to digest legumes to those needed to digest meat? The stinkiness might be from undigested protein. Just some thoughts. I wish you well.

1acc4ee9381d9a8d998b59915b3f997e

(2099)

on January 30, 2011
at 08:12 PM

p.s. Re-reading your post, I see that you are eating elk, bison and salmon. If I remember correctly, elk and bison are very lean, and while salmon has Omega-3s, it has no saturated fat. In my opinion, you need to seriously up you intake of saturated fat from animal sources. Get yourself some nice, marbled, fatty beef and make that your main protein source for awhile.

1acc4ee9381d9a8d998b59915b3f997e

(2099)

on January 30, 2011
at 08:06 PM

That's the impression I got from your food list, too...too many carbs, not enough protein and saturated fat. I lost 50 pounds and have kept it off by eating no more than 30 grams of carbs per day. I never count calories...but I count carbs religiously. If I am hungry, I know that it is because I have not eaten enough fat and protein. Too many carbs will make me hungry no matter how much fat and protein I have eaten with them. Too many carbs, from any source, totally screw up my blood sugar and hunger signals.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 30, 2011
at 08:01 PM

Have tried em before, but I will try them again. Thanks!

072fd69647b0e765bb4b11532569f16d

(3717)

on January 30, 2011
at 07:50 PM

Probiotics and/or Betaine HCl? Both of these have helped me with my digestion and regularity, not that your "issues" are the same as my "issues."

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 30, 2011
at 07:41 PM

Thanks texasleash. No, was not on a low fat diet. Once I eliminated wheat and spelt, the attacks greatly diminished. I've also done several liver/GB flushes to clean me out. First attack in the last month was after I had some roasted chicken. Just roasted, not smeared in butter or anything. Second attack was after a good dose of lean grass fed ground beef. :(

D67e7b481854b02110d5a5b21d6789b1

(4111)

on January 30, 2011
at 07:37 PM

to the doctor or hospital, as you don't want to ignore an obstruction. That could be very dangerous.

D67e7b481854b02110d5a5b21d6789b1

(4111)

on January 30, 2011
at 07:37 PM

be careful with items that cause you to have a gall bladder attack and work into those very slowly. I used to have the same problem with eggs and gall bladder issues, and I just had to up my intake slowly. After three very painful, but thankfully short episodes, I have not had any more gall bladder issues. If you have eaten low fat for years (as i did) and then switch to high fat, you could have some stones in the ducts and introducing high fat will cause contractions and pain. They can naturally work themselves out, but if you have pain that lasts any longer than 45 minutes you need to go

D67e7b481854b02110d5a5b21d6789b1

(4111)

on January 30, 2011
at 07:33 PM

@Jessica: do you mind sharing how you accomplish "when i want to lose fat, i will eat up to 80% of my calories from fat". What exactly do you eat? I want to try this to break a stall, but i seems the only thing I can find with that much fat is coconut milk and I am not sure if a can of coconut milk a day would be helpful or make me gain weight. Thank you for any info you can provide.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 30, 2011
at 06:59 PM

Oh. and I've been talking NAT Calm for years. BMs are still all over the place.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 30, 2011
at 06:57 PM

Hey Jessica. Thanks, I'll try no nuts for a week, and see what the outcome is. Not really a grazer, sorry if my OP implied that. Just trying to say what is included in my diet. I'm not willing to do meats like bacon or pork - I just don't see how that's good for you. And it's nearly impossible to find uncured bacon here. I eat a lot if saturated fat in the form of ghee, coconut, and red palm (don't care for that one much though). Not so much in cooked flesh form. Meats lately have been more salmon, elk, and bison.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 30, 2011
at 06:36 PM

I don't have the foggiest what my calorie intake is. Never have. Food yesterday was - pancakes in the morning (1 egg, 1 banana, leftover nut mash from nut milk and ground coconut), bison burger with green chiles and avocado and salad for lunch. Dinner was coconut curry with lots of veggies and flank steak, with shredded cauliflower as "rice". Snack was apple with a square of chocolate and some nut butter.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 30, 2011
at 06:32 PM

No. Haven't touched soda in 15 years. I don't think you read my post carefully. I AM eating meat. I am eating high protein, and high fat. I put in there the other things I eat since people want to know if there are allergens in the diet, or what strict might mean to seomone. It says there I have been off gluten for 1 year, and have only had one instance of rice bread in the past 45 days.

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7304)

on January 30, 2011
at 06:18 PM

what does your daily food intake look like? how many calories?

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 30, 2011
at 06:11 PM

Just saw this post - http://paleohacks.com/questions/9663/is-paleo-for-indian-people-significantly-different#axzz1CXfqhMdw which addresses ethnicity. I think eating where you came from is highly overlooked by everyone, but also quite hard when you're not in that place. I might be headed back on an ayurvedic diet after this if my belly doesn't diminish.

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19 Answers

10
03d5a967b935e1e8ef202f313467878f

(485)

on January 30, 2011
at 06:35 PM

My first thoughts are: too many nuts, not enough fatty meat and saturated fat, not enough protein, too much snacking and not enough big meals. I can easily go through a dozen eggs in 6 days by myself. 2 eggs for breakfast along with bacon, kale, and sometimes another meat is a standard breakfast for me. Try eliminating all nuts and other snack foods and instead focus on eating 2-3 big meals a day that leave you full until your next meal. If you are hungry between meals, you didn't eat enough or your didn't eat the right things. I was a vegetarian for 20 years - we tend to be grazers. You need to try to change that. Magnesium helps me a great deal with regularity. I use Natural Calm before bed. When I want to lose fat, I will eat up to 80% of my calories from fat, then fill in with protein and very little carbs (veggies) 6 days a week with one massive cheat day of high carb. No nuts or dairy except butter and heavy cream. Best of luck to you...I can imagine how frustrated you are!

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on January 30, 2011
at 11:15 PM

You most likely won't see a loss just dropping the nuts for a week. It takes your body awhile to catch up to the changes. I would give it at the very least two weeks and you'd probably be better off with a month.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 31, 2011
at 06:19 AM

Ok. Will try. That's gonna be hard since it definitely is one of my staples. And I kinda wonder why I would bother since it wasn't a problem before. I think I'm just really wanting to return to my old diet but maybe I'll feel differently tomorrow.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 30, 2011
at 06:57 PM

Hey Jessica. Thanks, I'll try no nuts for a week, and see what the outcome is. Not really a grazer, sorry if my OP implied that. Just trying to say what is included in my diet. I'm not willing to do meats like bacon or pork - I just don't see how that's good for you. And it's nearly impossible to find uncured bacon here. I eat a lot if saturated fat in the form of ghee, coconut, and red palm (don't care for that one much though). Not so much in cooked flesh form. Meats lately have been more salmon, elk, and bison.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 30, 2011
at 08:39 PM

I ate lots and lots of coconut (raw coconuts, shredded, canned, oil, etc.)when I was veg. Definitely moreso than now. When I started that about 8 yrs ago, I lost about 5 lbs that had been hanging around for a while. Not sure what it does in combo with Paleo though.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 30, 2011
at 06:59 PM

Oh. and I've been talking NAT Calm for years. BMs are still all over the place.

D67e7b481854b02110d5a5b21d6789b1

(4111)

on January 30, 2011
at 07:33 PM

@Jessica: do you mind sharing how you accomplish "when i want to lose fat, i will eat up to 80% of my calories from fat". What exactly do you eat? I want to try this to break a stall, but i seems the only thing I can find with that much fat is coconut milk and I am not sure if a can of coconut milk a day would be helpful or make me gain weight. Thank you for any info you can provide.

4
62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on January 30, 2011
at 09:15 PM

The gallbladder thing is a tricky business. Fat does not cause the initial problem, but since the gallbladder is in charge of helping digest fat, once you have gallbladder problems, fat can cause 'attacks.' First you need to find out if you have stones in your gallbladder as those are very dangerous if they are large or baldly placed. Also, not clear on what you mean by attack. Are you talking mild aching, or rolling on the floor dieing? Another question is fat intake issues before and after. If you go from low fat to high fat too quickly and especially if your gall bladder has become ill in the meantime, then you will need to adjust very slowly. A healthy gallbladder has no problem digesting fat. Sadly, there is little understanding about the exact causes behind the development of gallbladder disease other than they suspect is it associated with a western diet. However, plenty of societies like the Masai who subsist on blood and fat and meat do not have gallbladder problems and as well, intake of fat and protein have not risen much in recent years, only carb intake has risen, so it is not anything so simple as just meat eating that causes the initial gallbladder problem. Anyway, advice for those that have gallbladder probs is space out your fat intake through the day. Do not eat a lot all at once.

My second opinion is that, although weight gain is not usually appreciated, it does not sound like your main problem. Of course you want to look hot and sexy I am sure, but you will need to think about if your main concern is health or if it is looking good. Vegetarianism without heavy grain and carb consumption means you were subsisting on foods that were not nutrient (and calorie) dense. (coconut and diary are the exceptions). Many find it hard to gain weight eating that way. Now you are eating foods that are more nutrient and calorie dense. Why would some gain and some lose eating this same kind of diet? The body naturally seeks the weight that it thinks is healthy given the situation it is in. If you look at hunter gatherer societies, some of them are pretty trim, but they exercise a ton and as they age, many do have some bit of flab around the center section. Looking like a runway model is not really the norm for most humans, even those living in a natural state. Your body may not feel, given a choice, that having zero jiggly fat is ideal from a health perspective. And women do tend to naturally carry more fat than men. It is only recently in human history that skinny was considered a pretty state for women. Previously, the desired state was a more well fed looking state.

So, what is the issue? Is the issue you not gaining weight or is it healthy in general? Of course, we all want both but I think you have to keep in mind that the two goals are not identical. However, if you want to force your body to stay trimmer, my advice would be to start counting calories, at least for now until you get this sorted out, and to cut down on sugary carb intake. Carbs tend to drive hunger. Raise your lean meat intake. Protein is satiating. It's hard to overeat on protein as the body will tend to call a halt to your desire to eat before that happens. You can only eat so much and then you feel full. Keep fat levels steady through the day and see if you can find a level that does not go beyond what the gallbladder can handle. Many here do find that high fat works for them, but it 's not for everyone, there is no proof that very high fat levels are healthier than moderate fat, and everyone is different.

I would also cut down on the nuts. THose cause problems for a lot of people, especially the more processed stuff like the flour.I think you should be eating some steak instead of eating so many nuts. Or go from some fresh fresh fish, yum! And you can still eat a lot of healthy veggies. Watch out for the nut milk too. Much of it has a lot of calories and garbage in it besides just nut. Make sure when you eat fat, like the coconut, you do not suck down a lot all at once, moderate amounts spaced out are better for the gallbladder issues.

One other issue I would like to point out, and this is from a personal perspective, is that I find that coconut milk acts differently in me as a fat than do animal fats. I find I will eat a certain amount of animal fat, it will taste great at first, and then I will feel full and satisfied (until many hours later at least). But when it comes to coconut milk, I never really reach that state where I feel full. I can easily just guzzle that stuff almost like water. I think it might bypass some of my satiation reflexes such that I end up consuming far more calories than I would from meat. This may not be ideal if you are trying to cut calories.

Edited add: I also just remembered reading that coconut oil (and other medium chain triglycerides) are special in that they do not require bile for digestion. This may be way they do not trigger as many gallbladder problems as the gall bladder is probably not being used at all in digestion. This is good in that you can eat a healthy fat with no fear of gallbladder pain, but bad in that if this is the only source of fat, then the gallbladder will never be called upon to empty itself, and lack of use is believed to be one of the biggest causes of gall bladder disease, because if the bile sits unused too long, it is believed to thicken and intensify and form gallstones.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 31, 2011
at 06:23 AM

Oh, so many different opinions. I'm confused. Ok, to answer questions - a sonogram two years ago showed no stones. I can't afford another one of those tests, and I'm assuming none have formed since my GB attacks were pretty much gone until recently. I have intermittent burning pain, but when the two attacks came this month, we're talking thought I was dying kind of attacks. The culprit before was most definitely wheat. I don't feel healthy with this spare tire. I have no interest in looking like a supermodel. I'm pretty buff, and this tire is something I can feel on me at all times.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 31, 2011
at 07:03 AM

PS - thank you for the very thorough response.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 31, 2011
at 06:28 AM

I'm pretty well dis-associated with the mass media image of women. I just feel gross! Why is everyone harping on my nut intake? It was a ONE day example. Most days I just have a scoop of macadamia nut or almond butter. Or some nut milk (NOT processed, freshly made) in tea. That's it. It's a staple, but not a huge portion of my intake. Again, no issue when I was veg. But keeping fat levels consistent throughout the day makes sense to me. I try to mix coconut oil, olive oil, pastured ghee, and palm oil and not just rely on one.

3
Cb2415c2aef964ab499a09dc92ae7e01

(783)

on January 30, 2011
at 08:46 PM

I cannot comment about items that cause gallbladder issues, but can definitely say that nuts, especially nut butter, and coconut are an easy way to up calories significantly. It doesn't seem like a lot, but these have little satiety per calorie and it is so easy to have an extra 500 cals a day on these foods. Over the course of 1 week, that would be about 1 pound. So unlike many people, I'd recommend tracking your calories. Standard paleo line is:

Meet protein requirements first.
Tinker with carbs depending on goals, type of exercise, etc.
Rest fat, but that doesn't mean you have free ride for as much coconut and almond butter as you can eat. That will certainly pack on the pounds.

2
Bd271299b2d4d9b2e3da9c252fef058c

on January 31, 2011
at 12:33 AM

Your diet seems to have a lot of high-Lectin foods (nuts, eggs, lots of veggies). Did you have trouble with these when you were vegetarian? I'm Lectin-sensitive and find that eating primarily meat helps my weight, health, and digestion.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 31, 2011
at 06:30 AM

Nope. No gas, bloating or GB attacks from those as a vegetarian.

2
03d5a967b935e1e8ef202f313467878f

(485)

on January 30, 2011
at 09:05 PM

Kurt Harris just had a good article on fats come up on his blog. I think it might give you a new perspective on what kinds of fats are healthy and why. The Paleo Diet book was indeed focused on lean meats but that has come out of favor among the paleo crowd over the years in favor of better Omega 6/3 ratios and an abundance of saturated fats from pastured butter and grass-fed ruminants (cows). THIS is the blog.

Perhaps it might also help you to read some more current reading on paleo like Robb Wolf's Paleo Solution or Mark Sisson's The Primal Blueprint.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 30, 2011
at 11:14 PM

Read the Paleo Solution. Doesn't he recommend lean meat and wild game, or is my memory just way off. Personally I just don't like high fat meat, and since cows are kind of a man made creation, it seems odd. But I will buy some tomorrow, and if there are no GB attacks, I'll continue. I make ghee from pastured butter. I just like ghee better personally. Thanks for the link. Will dive in!

2
531db50c958cf4d5605ee0c5ae8a57be

on January 30, 2011
at 08:43 PM

When a person has specific health issues, going "paleo" in and of itself is not a solution. There are so many variations of the paleo diet. It's not a one-size-fits all prescription. And a considerable degree of self-experimentation is necessary.

I'm going to take a stab at a diagnosis/prescription but I'll admit that I don't know what to say about the gallbladder issue. I do know a thing or two about badly explosive and intermittent digestion, however. In my experience, the trigger is sugar. And by sugar I mean the pancakes, nuts, apple, and so on. How's the gas situation? If it's not an issue, then stop reading and go with someone else's answer. It's just a hypothesis, mind you, but I'll go with SIBO (small intestine bacterial overgrowth). Try the Specific Carbohydrate Diet Illegal Foods List--eliminate the illegals.

Others have mentioned to "up" with the fats. Personally, I eat a higher fat diet; but if it's SIBO, the issue is that you're eating too much bacteria food. And your digestive tract is rebelling.

9dbfedbe21eae2a65093f8774ba8ad4d

(559)

on January 31, 2011
at 01:10 AM

I cut out Stevia and all sugar subs because they still trigger an insulin response. I used to have a BAD sweet tooth (imagine making a whole batch of rice crispie treats for oneself!), and since going PaNu all my sugar cravings have disappeared. Once in a while I have tomatoes, apples, or berries, but just a few (not a bowlful like before). I also cut out peanut butter and pecans (my other go-to snack foods) because of the carbs and PUFA's.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 30, 2011
at 09:00 PM

I did a candida cleanse a few years back, and have relied mainly on stevia since then, but I'm sure you're right that I'm still getting too much sugar. I have a sweet tooth like nothing else that I have to constantly battle.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 31, 2011
at 06:32 AM

Ok. Off PB, will wipe out pecans and nuts for a while. Some people think stevia helps with insulin levels, others not so much. I haven't done the bowlful things in years - I'm just cranky without chocolate!

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 30, 2011
at 09:05 PM

But I don't have much gas, so I don't know.

2
072fd69647b0e765bb4b11532569f16d

(3717)

on January 30, 2011
at 07:08 PM

I'll let others with more knowledge speak to the weight/fat gain. My only question about that part of your post is whether you were at a "healthy" weight when you were vegetarian? Is there a chance your body is working toward a healthy weight and your perception of belly fat is just a natural filling out? It sounds like you are quite active.

Regarding bowels, I have found coconut and nut butters to cause very sporadic and sometimes explosive movements. I do fine with a handful of almonds or macs a couple of times a day, but the minute I turn to almond butter or coconut milk/oil, wham. Problems.

1
9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on February 01, 2011
at 01:52 AM

Dude, if you think your chicken isn't grain fed I want to talk to your farmer. He's either an amazing innovator or lying. I've never met a farmer who has managed to get their chickens grain free.

Back to the topic, I have lots of experience with Indian food. I am not Indian, but I have Indian relatives by marriage and used to live with six Indian girls. My Indian relatives are vegetarian and by the time they are in their 40s typically have quite the paunch. I know Indians are genetically diverse (I'm betting you are from the South?), but I think there is a culturally appropriate diet that works for everyone. I also love Indian food and eat it often. Razib from the blog Gene Expression is Indian and also paleo.

What my thin Indian friends eat is lamb. Chicken just doesn't have the nutritionally ompf of something like lamb. Buy a whole lamb and eat lamb every day. When I started doing this my health improved immensely. As far as I know Hinduism doesn't restrict lamb. I'd also make sure to eat some seafood something and use ghee/tallow as a cooking fat.

I normally recommend things like bacon, but honestly my Indian friends and family think stuff like that is gross. Pork and beef are no nos for these folks. If you can get good grass-fed fermented dairy, I think that will clear your stomach issues. Pickles will probably help too.

Ditch the nuts. Almost all long-term paleos I know don't eat them much.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on February 01, 2011
at 05:46 AM

He seems honest - but ya never know. I actually asked him again today, and he says when he's out of everything else, they'll get millet, but no corn or soy. But otherwise they eat fruit and veggies. Who knows! Thanks for Gene Expression - that addresses some of what I was wondering about. I'm not Hindu anyhow. I'll get some lamb at the Farmer's Market. I eat as much fish as I can stomach, really not a fan. Ghee is a staple already. Ate bacon today for the first time ever - uncured, and I think organic but not sure about that.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on February 01, 2011
at 05:50 AM

Oh, and my Indian relatives that don't have crap like Gulab Jamun are skinny, vegetarian or not. But jeez, some Indians have a wicked sugar tooth!

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on February 01, 2011
at 09:01 PM

Here is another vegan paleo blog http://daiasolgaia.com/

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on February 01, 2011
at 05:47 AM

I had awful awful Gallbladder pains for hours after. It's a no no for sure! Love nuts - soooooo sad to see them go. If I flip flop back to vegetarian, they're definitely gonna be back in rotation, as there was never an issue before.

1
7fe08b47d7d073a906802a4170ae24bf

(350)

on January 30, 2011
at 09:26 PM

My experience maybe able to help you out.

I also had initial weight gain when I first when paleo, but that went away. I suspect this was my body adjusting to metabolizing fats instead the heavy amount of carbs I eat previously.

Give it a few more weeks, your weight will drop.

It took me a few months of paleo before i saw significant benefits. After being paleo for 6 months I can tell you the benefits are VERY SIGNIFICANT :)

OK regarding your gall blather issue. I would cut your egg intake and see what happens. Some people have egg allergies (including myself). I had to cut my egg intake and now eat large amounts of bacon each morning. See if this helps.

As far as fat intake, make sure you're getting enough! I recommend: ghee, butter, coconut oil and eating all your meat FULL FAT.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 30, 2011
at 11:18 PM

Really not trying to be difficult here, I'm just perpelexed. I don't eat a ton of eggs. Had GB attacks after eating one meal that was just meat, and one that was meat ad veggies. Glad to hear though that you felt better after a few months. When I was veg, my diet was equal amounts protein, fat and carbs.

1
D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

on January 30, 2011
at 08:36 PM

Anyone read Nourishing Traditions? I think incorporating ideas from there may help my gut a lot too.

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on March 01, 2011
at 06:03 AM

great book, lots of really good info and recipes in there

1
1e45d8103d370575aa79f2d3254b8fc6

(10)

on January 30, 2011
at 06:22 PM

Your diet needs more protein and more fats bottomline paleo is about high protein, high fat diet. seems that you are sticking to your vegetarian mind set while trying paleo. I have done strict paleo fro 3 months, lost 40 lbs and feel great. Got to get off the grains. Are you drinking diet sodas? Consuming diet sodas can derail fat loss...also are you getting enough sleep?

1acc4ee9381d9a8d998b59915b3f997e

(2099)

on January 30, 2011
at 08:12 PM

p.s. Re-reading your post, I see that you are eating elk, bison and salmon. If I remember correctly, elk and bison are very lean, and while salmon has Omega-3s, it has no saturated fat. In my opinion, you need to seriously up you intake of saturated fat from animal sources. Get yourself some nice, marbled, fatty beef and make that your main protein source for awhile.

0bcefaa82dc94f93ce705f86e235f335

(1591)

on January 31, 2011
at 04:15 AM

It depends on your "brand" of Paleo, but most people find that not enough fat derails any progress in terms of weight and health. Most Paleo/PB folks eat as much fat as they want, as long as they're "approved" fats with the right composition. So - lean meats *if* the fat is suspect, but fatty meats if the fat is good fat.

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on January 31, 2011
at 11:03 PM

I eat 75% fat, 20% protein and less than 5% carbs on a 1800 cal/day regime...mostly salads with lot of olive oil & vinegar, yams with lots of butter, a few veggies with lots of melted butter. Lost 55 pounds-never felt better 38" belt to 31" belt. Absolutely no nuts. They make me feel spacey..even macs. Regarding bacon, how can you say eating bacon and pork just can't be good for you. How do you know until you try it? I have been eating 1/8 pound of bacon each morning along with my 4-6 eggs panfried in coconut oil/bacon fat for over 3 years. Fat is your friend in weight loss.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 30, 2011
at 06:32 PM

No. Haven't touched soda in 15 years. I don't think you read my post carefully. I AM eating meat. I am eating high protein, and high fat. I put in there the other things I eat since people want to know if there are allergens in the diet, or what strict might mean to seomone. It says there I have been off gluten for 1 year, and have only had one instance of rice bread in the past 45 days.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 30, 2011
at 08:35 PM

And I had thought that Paleo was really more about lean meats and wild game. Am I wrong?

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on February 01, 2011
at 05:51 AM

I tried it today Dexter - my gallbladder almost jumped out of my body!

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 30, 2011
at 08:32 PM

Ok Helen, but I am almost positive I will have gallbladder attacks from those. I will try it though.

1acc4ee9381d9a8d998b59915b3f997e

(2099)

on January 30, 2011
at 08:06 PM

That's the impression I got from your food list, too...too many carbs, not enough protein and saturated fat. I lost 50 pounds and have kept it off by eating no more than 30 grams of carbs per day. I never count calories...but I count carbs religiously. If I am hungry, I know that it is because I have not eaten enough fat and protein. Too many carbs will make me hungry no matter how much fat and protein I have eaten with them. Too many carbs, from any source, totally screw up my blood sugar and hunger signals.

0
86a7abe4a54c4dc15ea44bacef00c5a8

on January 31, 2011
at 09:22 PM

Valkyrie,

During your time as a vegetarian, your body may have been starving for fats and proteins. Now that you are trying to add them back to your diet, your body may be trying to conserve them by storing them in your belly. After a while, your body will readjust from thinking it must store up for the next famine and transition into fat burning mode.

Looking at your eating habits over a longer period might be more enlightening than trying to analyze it one day at a time. You might want to utilize Fitday to track your nutritional intake for a few weeks. It will allow you to see the percentage of fat, protein, carbs, and fiber you are taking in.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on February 01, 2011
at 05:41 AM

Ok, but I really wasn't on a low protein of low fat diet. I ate a lot of healthy fats. I think it's a huge misconception to think vegetarians all eat low-fat and super high carb. My more pressing issue is actually my gallbladder. I was excited to try this diet thinking it would help that, but it's gotten worse than it has in many years. Fitday sounds interesting. I'll check it out.

0
2507b557331c8a674bc81197531e609a

(4994)

on January 31, 2011
at 11:05 AM

I think maybe follow the exact meal plan, like in the back of Robb Wolf's book (for the magic 30 days) to the letter nd see how that makes you feel, it's so easy to misinterpret something with this minefield of information but oerhaps if you follow a plan someone has laid out for you it will be easier to not make (unknowing) mistakes.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 31, 2011
at 03:02 PM

Thanks Carly. I was just thinking the same thing when I picked it up again yesterday. I think I will, and just cut out the nuts.

0
13c5a9f1678d75b93f269cdcf69f14d5

(2339)

on January 31, 2011
at 01:51 AM

How's your blood sugar?

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 31, 2011
at 06:34 AM

Couldn't tell ya from a blood test perspective. Way too poor for such things from buying all this meat!

0
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on January 31, 2011
at 01:08 AM

What kind of meat are you buying? Some stores inject or soak their meats in "12% solution" like Walmart. That must be avoided like the plague, it probably contains toxic crap.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 31, 2011
at 07:01 AM

Sorry, meant grass fed.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 31, 2011
at 06:34 AM

Haven't been in a Walmart in 15 years! Mostly farmer's market, going on what they say is grain fed and finished, or free ranged chicken. I don't even want to know what a 12% solution is!

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on February 03, 2011
at 06:26 AM

You're probably fine then = )

0
D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

on January 30, 2011
at 09:04 PM

The odd thing is that when I was veg, I ate that stuff as much as I wanted. Really the only difference im my diet is that I'm trading rice and beans for meat. And a decent amount of meat. It's just kinda mystifying that I'm gaining weight on my belly from that change, unless it's basically just not getting digested at all. Since I'm no longer drinking kefir or yogurt, I'm sure I'm getting less digestion help from probiotics.

The gallbladder thing is a huge thing though. Extremely painful, and doctors have just wanted to remove it in the past. If the pain and attacks continue, back to my hippie vegetarian diet! :)

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 31, 2011
at 06:33 AM

Ok, true. I would just be bloated, which I'm not.

691f120a3e7a1a036845d105d86c99a3

(3641)

on January 30, 2011
at 09:41 PM

i think eating nut pancakes everyday would make me feel pretty aweful

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on January 31, 2011
at 05:20 AM

If something is not getting digested, you can't gain adipose tissue from it. It would just pass through but no calories would be extracted.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 30, 2011
at 11:16 PM

I never said I eat them everyday. That was one example of what I had yesterday. I try not to waste things. So if I make nut milk, I'll use the remaining pulp. This morning I had a small omelette and homemade chicken sausage with collard greens.

0
8287c6ddae0d78eae0a09fdd5999617c

(2581)

on January 30, 2011
at 07:52 PM

Putting calorie denialism aside, without knowing your calorie intake you are a ship with no compass. A pound of fat is 3,500 calories worth of energy. You can easily put that much on in a week by adding an extra 500 calories a day above your maintenance calories.

There is no magic diet that will keep you from gaining fat, regardless of macronutrient intake or whether you are eating a vegetarian diet or eating meat.

0
D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

on January 30, 2011
at 07:25 PM

Hi Tom. I'm an apple, so if I'm going to gain weight, it's gonna be in my belly. I was at a healthy weight before. Good muscle mass, some fat on the belly, but not like now. I can grab this in handfuls and jiggle it. My BF also told me that I'm much stinkier now!

Well coconut and nuts are not a new part of my diet. The only thing that is, is meat. The gallbladder attacks are from the meat. Too many eggs can give me an attack, so that's why they're not a huge part of my diet.

My diet has been pretty clean for years. What I have eliminated is rice, corn, starches (like in Almond Breeze almond milk), and beans and legumes since starting Paleo. Dairy too, though that was a very very minimal part, usually in the form of goat yogurt.

I have been trying to figure out my diet for years and years, as I am allergic to many foods. Ugh, I am frustrated!

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 30, 2011
at 07:41 PM

Thanks texasleash. No, was not on a low fat diet. Once I eliminated wheat and spelt, the attacks greatly diminished. I've also done several liver/GB flushes to clean me out. First attack in the last month was after I had some roasted chicken. Just roasted, not smeared in butter or anything. Second attack was after a good dose of lean grass fed ground beef. :(

072fd69647b0e765bb4b11532569f16d

(3717)

on January 30, 2011
at 07:50 PM

Probiotics and/or Betaine HCl? Both of these have helped me with my digestion and regularity, not that your "issues" are the same as my "issues."

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 30, 2011
at 08:01 PM

Have tried em before, but I will try them again. Thanks!

1acc4ee9381d9a8d998b59915b3f997e

(2099)

on January 30, 2011
at 08:22 PM

Are you sure that its your gallbladder and not your pancreas that is causing pain? The reason I ask is because you say the pain comes from meat, and the pancreas secretes the digestive juices that digest protein. Perhaps your pancreas is having a hard time switching over from producing the enzymes needed to digest legumes to those needed to digest meat? The stinkiness might be from undigested protein. Just some thoughts. I wish you well.

D67e7b481854b02110d5a5b21d6789b1

(4111)

on January 30, 2011
at 07:37 PM

be careful with items that cause you to have a gall bladder attack and work into those very slowly. I used to have the same problem with eggs and gall bladder issues, and I just had to up my intake slowly. After three very painful, but thankfully short episodes, I have not had any more gall bladder issues. If you have eaten low fat for years (as i did) and then switch to high fat, you could have some stones in the ducts and introducing high fat will cause contractions and pain. They can naturally work themselves out, but if you have pain that lasts any longer than 45 minutes you need to go

D67e7b481854b02110d5a5b21d6789b1

(4111)

on January 30, 2011
at 07:37 PM

to the doctor or hospital, as you don't want to ignore an obstruction. That could be very dangerous.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 30, 2011
at 08:34 PM

Oh yeah. I know the difference. Unfortunately, years of experience with all of this stuff. I take digestive enzymes, but will up the doses. Argh! My poor wallet! Thanks Helen!

-9
08ce57b1bbb3bda8e384234389c36d94

on January 31, 2011
at 04:04 AM

Fatter and feeling worse eating the way our ancestors evolved?

You are an example of the consequences of neolithic selection or lack thereof.

In paleolithic times you would not be long for this world. Miserable fat hominids quickly became tasty low-carb snacks for hungry predators. Their less than desirable genetic traits were efficiently removed from the gene pool.

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 31, 2011
at 06:37 AM

Or, people that could get by on "third world proteins" such as Indians evolved past paleo and neolithic. India is the cradle of civilization, and though it's being wracked by an ever-increasing Western diet, my ancestors were often living to 110. Thanks for your closed minded opinion. Ya wouldn't want to meet me on the street!

D83e454e794d761ab524814c0ff8f838

(531)

on January 31, 2011
at 06:38 AM

PS - and I don't mean civilization as Americans have designed it.

89e238284ccb95b439edcff9e123671e

(10299)

on January 31, 2011
at 01:04 PM

not cool at all! not true at all

2507b557331c8a674bc81197531e609a

(4994)

on January 31, 2011
at 11:03 AM

Sheesh! That's a bit harsh Earl!

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