3

votes

Hack my Paleo Diet

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created January 17, 2011 at 3:30 AM

I'm asking for a bit of help in removing the last bit of body fat from my stomach and love handle area. I am a 54 yo male who would love to see his abs before his next birthday. 168cm 68kg. I have been Paleo + dairy for about 2 years, strict Paleo 1 year (except cream) very strict 3 weeks (no dairy) I have been very low carb to zero carb, moderate fat to very high fat (gave myself steatorrhoea) moderate protein to protein only. I tried Jimmy Moore's egg and butter/cheese diet for several weeks. I generally eat one meal a day and usually have a 24-36 hour fast a week too. Fitday says my calories are between 1000 and 1500 every day. I resistance train with heavy weights 3-4 times a week but am reasonably sedentary otherwise. I am a bi-lateral amputee, missing right arm above elbow and right leg above knee so my weight doesn't make much sense in a BMI kind of way. Because of this it is hard to calculate my daily metabolic calorie needs so I can maintain a caloric deficit. My meals for the last few weeks have been a big pan of broccoli, cauliflower,brussel sprouts,cabbage,leek and about 10 eggs. Other times the protein is ~250g of rump steakor ground beef or beef heart or liver or kidney bacon. I usually eat half at about 4pm and the rest around 6:30pm.
I just don't understand why I can't lose this last bit of fat, so it is over to you guys, any ideas to bust this plateau?

535633b57c4a4940d1e913e7a12ee791

(1013)

on April 18, 2011
at 10:06 PM

good advice Stephen

5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on January 18, 2011
at 12:39 AM

I don't know that glycogen depletion becomes such a problems when you have been fat adapted for years. I think the body becomes very efficient and doesn't waste much glycogen during exercise rather using fat and fatty acids for energy production. The problem is most studies, including McDonalds, are short term and don't study long term fat adapted athletes. I have read lots to confirm this.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on January 17, 2011
at 07:17 PM

I see your point. The purpose of the refeed is glycogen supercompensation, and the purpose of that is to allow you to keep muscle while you are dieting hard. It's like you can't have your cake and eat it too, unless you refeed or calorie cycle.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on January 17, 2011
at 03:18 PM

i posted an example feast in whats for dinner thread: http://paleohacks.com/questions/18995/what-did-you-eat-for-dinner-tonight#axzz1BJ1YT3EF

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on January 17, 2011
at 03:13 PM

oh and jealous, id like to try Roo Steaks.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on January 17, 2011
at 01:07 PM

when im getting adequate calories, i feel like superman, sub par calories, tired or just not up for doing things.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on January 17, 2011
at 01:07 PM

energy levels are the other way to easily tell.

5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on January 17, 2011
at 12:51 PM

I'll get some kangaroo tomorrow. I can't imagine I have metabolic slowdown, how would I tell apart from the stubborn fat? Feeling cold isn't an option here at the moment with most days reaching 40c. ;)

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on January 17, 2011
at 12:36 PM

Wild Meat is best. as for too large a deficit, your body doesnt care if you short it a day or two. Only when it thinks its going to be long term do you have metabolic slowdown. Ive found when I start getting really cold and a couple jumping jacks wont warm me up, i need to up the calories a little. Fueling your body, with extra food post workout, will preferentially shuttle said food to muscles, double purpose building those muscles and therefore not fat, but also telling your body, youre not starving.

5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on January 17, 2011
at 12:02 PM

Thanks for joining in Stephen, I welcome your knowledge. I always exercise fasted except for 5g BCAA. You say FEAST after heavy WO, what would you feast on? I usually train 8am-9:30am and might eat a few hours after. I usually don't feel hunger for at least a few hours. I like to chuck in 5g-10g BCAA/EAA before during and after WO too. Thing is I'm still building muscle so the deficit can't be TOO large can it? I just want to lose the belly fat..

5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on January 17, 2011
at 10:21 AM

The problem is the re-feeds. They all use lots of rice, potatos and starchy crap which I don't eat and don't want to. *"the refeed lasts for 30 hours"* I only really eat one meal a day or two in a 3 hour window anyhow. I workout harder than that now with heavy weights and rest is only another exercise. Ie, the bicep gets a rest while the tricep is being worked then the tri rests while back to the bicep. That should deplete the glycogen but not for long. I find I can do the exact same WO the next day so my gluconeogenesis must work very well.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on January 17, 2011
at 10:19 AM

Oh, you just erased your second comment. I was going to say that I don't know enough about Leangains/Lyle McDonald to talk about exactly what kind of aggregate deficit you should be aiming for, but mostly wanted to say that it ultimately depends on how you feel. I think one can use Fitday to fine-tune *observation of* one's input, but as for what the *aim* input should be, that is a little trickier and I think has to proceed from experimentation. But 1000 calories seems like far too few. At this point I should probably leave it to people who know more about fitness than I do.

5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on January 17, 2011
at 10:04 AM

So in the above example: Cal Fat Carb Prot Steak 200g 503 30 0.0 54.6 2 lg eggs 136 10.4 0.3 12.4 .5 cup oil 940 109 0.0 0.0 TOTAL 1579 149.0 0.3 67.0 Right on target except for the cho which should be 20-30 but I don't care about that. So I'm getting 1579 calories, mtce is a bit under 2000 calories so 1580 is a fairly good deficit IMO. Thoughts?

5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on January 17, 2011
at 09:47 AM

No offence taken. ;) JK's diet gives you the amount of grams of pro fat and cho. From there it is simple, 65g of protein is 200g of steak (503 cal) and 2 large eggs (136 cal) for example. 110g of fat could be .5 cup of coconut oil for 940cal. Easy enough to work out. Fitday is indispensable.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on January 17, 2011
at 08:18 AM

OK, I figured you knew about these things, which is why I tried to phrase cautiously in my answer, but I thought it was worth mentioning anyway (hope I didn't offend). ----- If I understand correctly, JK's OD will only get you the ratio, and not the calories. But what I am suggesting is that too deep of a calorie deficit is not better for weight loss, but worse. Why would your body let go of fat if you're giving it far too few calories?

5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on January 17, 2011
at 07:33 AM

That's exactly what I'm trying to do. Maybe I should have mentioned, like Martin recommends I am using BCAA/EAA regularly so as to avoid losing lean muscle with such a steep calorie deficit. I certainly haven't lost muscle, also haven't lost any fat... Thanks for the link. I am quite familiar with Martin's work, Brad Pilon as well. I have calculated my macros from Jan Kwasniewski's Optimal Diet: P=65g F=162-230 C=-30 or faster loss: P=65 F=130 C=20 based on height and weight.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on January 17, 2011
at 04:55 AM

If you're at 12-15% and you fear metabolism slow down or muscle loss, I'd do a cyclical diet of some sort. Maybe either a leangains type diet or Lyle's diet. Briefly, you do glycogen depletion workouts 3 times during the week (low circuit training with medium-light weights and short rest periods), with a carb refeed on Thursday after the last depletion workout. The refeed lasts for 30 hours, then you do a powerlifting workout to maintain strength/muscle, and go back to glycogen depletion on the next Monday. The book spells it out in greater detail. It works, but watch for fatigue/injury.

5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on January 17, 2011
at 04:51 AM

I have read it but got it from the library so don't still have it. Yohimbe isn't available/legal here in Australia, neither is ephedrine. I would estimate BF% at 12-15%, via caliper (not very accurate). I can't train much more without risking overtraining and I fear metabolism slow down if I drop calories too far.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on January 17, 2011
at 04:51 AM

I've done a couple rounds of each of those, and they worked well. However, the targeted ketogenic diet is very close to paleo (just with some pre-workout carbs). Cyclical ketogenic is great for losing fat and keeping mass. Lyle's Ultimate Diet 2.0 is a more structured cyclical ketogenic diet, which I once did for two months. It's good because of the precise instructions given for calories and workouts.

7767e05a8c4504f6be03f13ee40815cd

(1299)

on January 17, 2011
at 04:46 AM

Also something that McDonald mentioned, there is the "cyclic ketogenic diet" and even better the "targeted ketogenic diet" that use regularly-spaced carb consumption followed by low-carb and ketosis in order to produce quick changes in body composition.

7767e05a8c4504f6be03f13ee40815cd

(1299)

on January 17, 2011
at 04:45 AM

Also something that McDonald mentioned, there is the "cyclic ketogenic diet" and even better the "target ketogenic diet" that use regularly-spaced carb consumption followed by low-carb and ketosis in order to produce quick changes in body composition.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on January 17, 2011
at 04:39 AM

Just for convenience: 68kg = 150lbs; 168cm = 5'6".

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3 Answers

3
47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on January 17, 2011
at 05:01 AM

Judging by your height/weight and your profile picture, you seem like a pretty muscular guy, which leads me to believe that if you are trying to do a weight-training + mild-caloric-deficit program, then with 1000-1500 calories you might have gone a little too far below your maintenance level. And this could keep some fat on your midsection. That's my first intuition on the matter (or maybe a little more than intuition). Only half a pound of meat per day? Doesn't seem like much.

But I'm also guessing you've thought about this possibility? Seems like you have a lot of experience with trying different diets. Anyhow, on caloric deficit, here's a good article by Ned, who is fun to read if you haven't discovered him already.

I'm guessing a lot of people's first reaction to your question would be: carb cycling. On this check out Leangains if you haven't read Martin yet: basically carb cycling (loosely speaking) plus intermittent fasting plus fasted training. His post "Intermittent Fasting and Stubborn Body Fat" is maybe his most relevant post on the matter, or at least a good place to start.

5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on January 17, 2011
at 10:04 AM

So in the above example: Cal Fat Carb Prot Steak 200g 503 30 0.0 54.6 2 lg eggs 136 10.4 0.3 12.4 .5 cup oil 940 109 0.0 0.0 TOTAL 1579 149.0 0.3 67.0 Right on target except for the cho which should be 20-30 but I don't care about that. So I'm getting 1579 calories, mtce is a bit under 2000 calories so 1580 is a fairly good deficit IMO. Thoughts?

5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on January 17, 2011
at 07:33 AM

That's exactly what I'm trying to do. Maybe I should have mentioned, like Martin recommends I am using BCAA/EAA regularly so as to avoid losing lean muscle with such a steep calorie deficit. I certainly haven't lost muscle, also haven't lost any fat... Thanks for the link. I am quite familiar with Martin's work, Brad Pilon as well. I have calculated my macros from Jan Kwasniewski's Optimal Diet: P=65g F=162-230 C=-30 or faster loss: P=65 F=130 C=20 based on height and weight.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on January 17, 2011
at 10:19 AM

Oh, you just erased your second comment. I was going to say that I don't know enough about Leangains/Lyle McDonald to talk about exactly what kind of aggregate deficit you should be aiming for, but mostly wanted to say that it ultimately depends on how you feel. I think one can use Fitday to fine-tune *observation of* one's input, but as for what the *aim* input should be, that is a little trickier and I think has to proceed from experimentation. But 1000 calories seems like far too few. At this point I should probably leave it to people who know more about fitness than I do.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on January 17, 2011
at 08:18 AM

OK, I figured you knew about these things, which is why I tried to phrase cautiously in my answer, but I thought it was worth mentioning anyway (hope I didn't offend). ----- If I understand correctly, JK's OD will only get you the ratio, and not the calories. But what I am suggesting is that too deep of a calorie deficit is not better for weight loss, but worse. Why would your body let go of fat if you're giving it far too few calories?

5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on January 17, 2011
at 09:47 AM

No offence taken. ;) JK's diet gives you the amount of grams of pro fat and cho. From there it is simple, 65g of protein is 200g of steak (503 cal) and 2 large eggs (136 cal) for example. 110g of fat could be .5 cup of coconut oil for 940cal. Easy enough to work out. Fitday is indispensable.

2
4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

on January 17, 2011
at 11:01 AM

Calorie Cycling, sounds like its been too long on too low of calories and your body needs a jumpstart. Carbs are not required, tho my strength gains blossomed when I added them back in.

stop counting calories.

Exercise Fasted.

FEAST after a heavy high intensity workout.

then only eat when hungry. ignore times, ignore when you usually would eat. eat a small amount, wait 20 min and see if the hungries are gone.

On your heavy workout day, fast as long as you can even if starting to get hungry, then knock out a good set and FEAST, what you are eating will Both preferentially be fueled into muscle and will tell your body that you arent starving and that when it NEEDS food, youll provide it.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on January 17, 2011
at 12:36 PM

Wild Meat is best. as for too large a deficit, your body doesnt care if you short it a day or two. Only when it thinks its going to be long term do you have metabolic slowdown. Ive found when I start getting really cold and a couple jumping jacks wont warm me up, i need to up the calories a little. Fueling your body, with extra food post workout, will preferentially shuttle said food to muscles, double purpose building those muscles and therefore not fat, but also telling your body, youre not starving.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on January 17, 2011
at 03:13 PM

oh and jealous, id like to try Roo Steaks.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on January 17, 2011
at 03:18 PM

i posted an example feast in whats for dinner thread: http://paleohacks.com/questions/18995/what-did-you-eat-for-dinner-tonight#axzz1BJ1YT3EF

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on January 17, 2011
at 01:07 PM

energy levels are the other way to easily tell.

5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on January 17, 2011
at 12:02 PM

Thanks for joining in Stephen, I welcome your knowledge. I always exercise fasted except for 5g BCAA. You say FEAST after heavy WO, what would you feast on? I usually train 8am-9:30am and might eat a few hours after. I usually don't feel hunger for at least a few hours. I like to chuck in 5g-10g BCAA/EAA before during and after WO too. Thing is I'm still building muscle so the deficit can't be TOO large can it? I just want to lose the belly fat..

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22913)

on January 17, 2011
at 01:07 PM

when im getting adequate calories, i feel like superman, sub par calories, tired or just not up for doing things.

5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on January 17, 2011
at 12:51 PM

I'll get some kangaroo tomorrow. I can't imagine I have metabolic slowdown, how would I tell apart from the stubborn fat? Feeling cold isn't an option here at the moment with most days reaching 40c. ;)

535633b57c4a4940d1e913e7a12ee791

(1013)

on April 18, 2011
at 10:06 PM

good advice Stephen

1
21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on January 17, 2011
at 03:50 AM

Have you heard of Lyle McDonald's book "The Stubborn Fat Solution"? I haven't read it, but it's 90 pages of science about stubborn fat, plus a protocol of which I do no know.

But I do recall that Lyle used to recommend yohimbe and a certain cardio pattern to get that last bit of fat. Here is what google provided:

* 30-60 minutes prior to morning fasted cardio: yohimbe (0.2 milligrams per kilogram of bodyweight) with caffeine (100-200 milligrams).
* Do your morning cardio (45-60 minutes at a low-moderate intensity).
* 3-4 hours following the yohimbe, you can take your first ephedrine/caffeine dose.
* Four hours later, you can take another dose (the last dose should be at least 4 hours before you intend to go to sleep).

The book is recommended for those around 10% bodyfat. If you're above there, you might just have to do more exercise and eat less for a while, even if that burns a wee bit of muscle too.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on January 17, 2011
at 07:17 PM

I see your point. The purpose of the refeed is glycogen supercompensation, and the purpose of that is to allow you to keep muscle while you are dieting hard. It's like you can't have your cake and eat it too, unless you refeed or calorie cycle.

5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on January 17, 2011
at 10:21 AM

The problem is the re-feeds. They all use lots of rice, potatos and starchy crap which I don't eat and don't want to. *"the refeed lasts for 30 hours"* I only really eat one meal a day or two in a 3 hour window anyhow. I workout harder than that now with heavy weights and rest is only another exercise. Ie, the bicep gets a rest while the tricep is being worked then the tri rests while back to the bicep. That should deplete the glycogen but not for long. I find I can do the exact same WO the next day so my gluconeogenesis must work very well.

5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on January 17, 2011
at 04:51 AM

I have read it but got it from the library so don't still have it. Yohimbe isn't available/legal here in Australia, neither is ephedrine. I would estimate BF% at 12-15%, via caliper (not very accurate). I can't train much more without risking overtraining and I fear metabolism slow down if I drop calories too far.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on January 17, 2011
at 04:55 AM

If you're at 12-15% and you fear metabolism slow down or muscle loss, I'd do a cyclical diet of some sort. Maybe either a leangains type diet or Lyle's diet. Briefly, you do glycogen depletion workouts 3 times during the week (low circuit training with medium-light weights and short rest periods), with a carb refeed on Thursday after the last depletion workout. The refeed lasts for 30 hours, then you do a powerlifting workout to maintain strength/muscle, and go back to glycogen depletion on the next Monday. The book spells it out in greater detail. It works, but watch for fatigue/injury.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on January 17, 2011
at 04:51 AM

I've done a couple rounds of each of those, and they worked well. However, the targeted ketogenic diet is very close to paleo (just with some pre-workout carbs). Cyclical ketogenic is great for losing fat and keeping mass. Lyle's Ultimate Diet 2.0 is a more structured cyclical ketogenic diet, which I once did for two months. It's good because of the precise instructions given for calories and workouts.

5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on January 18, 2011
at 12:39 AM

I don't know that glycogen depletion becomes such a problems when you have been fat adapted for years. I think the body becomes very efficient and doesn't waste much glycogen during exercise rather using fat and fatty acids for energy production. The problem is most studies, including McDonalds, are short term and don't study long term fat adapted athletes. I have read lots to confirm this.

7767e05a8c4504f6be03f13ee40815cd

(1299)

on January 17, 2011
at 04:45 AM

Also something that McDonald mentioned, there is the "cyclic ketogenic diet" and even better the "target ketogenic diet" that use regularly-spaced carb consumption followed by low-carb and ketosis in order to produce quick changes in body composition.

7767e05a8c4504f6be03f13ee40815cd

(1299)

on January 17, 2011
at 04:46 AM

Also something that McDonald mentioned, there is the "cyclic ketogenic diet" and even better the "targeted ketogenic diet" that use regularly-spaced carb consumption followed by low-carb and ketosis in order to produce quick changes in body composition.

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