1

votes

Indonesia and rice consumption

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created June 16, 2011 at 6:13 AM

They are apparently the biggest consumers of rice-per-capita and eat twice as much as second place Japan. There biggest issue seems to be infectious disease/poverty overall. Anyone know if they have diabetes and/or obesity issues??

58cc17a77bca6e503dcf6bf6471b76a1

(478)

on August 18, 2011
at 10:46 PM

As a person who grew up in Indonesia, I am completely agree with you! Most traditional Indonesian dishes are either deep fried, overly sweet or overly spicy.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on June 17, 2011
at 02:36 AM

I dont' think you can make clean conclusions like that. We can make clean conclusions when we examine island nations like Khitava or Papua New Guinea that was not corrupted by gluten grains and refined sugar. Anywhere else it will necessarily be mixed: the point is that this mix is "synergistic" and the toxin triples its toxicidity, which is the definition of a toxin and toxidity anyway. Yes, Taubes focuses on sugar (fructose) but I don't think you can ignore gluten, which seems to be behind pretty much all autoimmune diseases. That would include T1 and autoimmune forms of diabetes.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on June 17, 2011
at 02:22 AM

But then, gluten seems to be the driver of all autoimmune diseases. So not only would gluten drive T1 diabetes but also T1.5 or LADA ... that would be about 1/5 of all adult T2 diabetics who are actually autoimmne diabetics and become insulin-dependent. So, yes, gluten does cause diabetes on its own, I would say, INDEPENDENT OF fructose consumption.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on June 16, 2011
at 08:57 PM

Come back from that limb, Travis! Three people I personally know are normal weight or underweight diabetics who spent their life eating rice and potatoes, with very little sugar. I find it hard to believe I'm the only person with this experience.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on June 16, 2011
at 06:44 PM

I would say you're largely correct. However, gluten will cause T1 diabetes. If you feed gluten to a toddler s/he'll have 5 times more chance of developing T1 diabetes and Crohn's during childhood and beyond. The 2 are comorbidities and are directly linked to gluten and its effects -- gut permeability.

40c6ba923990736e21efd26cbcb2fcba

on June 16, 2011
at 03:26 PM

So what can we say about pasta-eating societies if it is gluten that breaks the camels back. Or is it fructose from non-natural sources...that pediatric in LA seems to think that fructose is the issue and Taubes has mentioned that that may be the key.

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5 Answers

6
02736efa3fda31740e8890eed0cb663d

(1813)

on June 16, 2011
at 10:31 AM

I don't think consumption of starch is a cause of obesity and diabetes. This is what I glean from all the health blogs I've reading over the last year or so, including those of Chris Kresser, Dr. Harris, and The Perfect Health Diet. There are many traditional cultures that have a diet very high in starch, and have very low rates of diabetes and almost no obesity.

Mark Sisson does great, great, work, but I think his stance on carbohydrate has lead a lot of people down an unsustainable path. I eat rice pretty often (hard to avoid living in China) but I have still managed to lose quite a lot of weight.

2
3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

on June 16, 2011
at 02:19 PM

I have no doubt Indonesia will soon become the diabetic capital of the world. Right now, Malaysia supposedly is. But as sugar and gluten flour infiltrate Indonesia's food infrastructure, Indonesians will contract diabetes at a rate higher than the West -- the same pattern in India, Malaysia, Singapore, China, Vietnam, Polynesia, Papua New Guinea, Nigeria, Inuitland, Greenland, Indian reservations, etc.

The reason for this is simple. Their diet is already starchy to begin with. We agree that a safe starch diet in itself will not lead you to diabetes. However, when you start mixing enough sugar/fructose and gluten grains to the safe starch diet, the synergistic effect is like this: 1 + 1 = 6. The skyrocketing blood sugar from both safe and unsafe starches will just overwhelm your metabolism.

Since sugar/fructose is supposedly toxic, its toxic effect is magnified when mixed with starches, safe or not. If you go to China and Malaysia, you'll see Dunkin Donuts selling their breakfast menu. The Thrid World is rapidly copying the eating habits of the developed countries and paying for it double with their wrecked metabolism.

Ron Martin on LLVLC recently put forth his theory on this: he said that if you're from a hunter-gatherer tribe and have not been exposed to the ways of agriculture (e.g., the Kitavans), then your metabolism is more susceptible to being wrecked by sugar and gluten grains. Something like that.

But the conventional wisdom is that non-whites contract diabetes at a higher rate than whites. Also, there are some patterns: Asians seem to contract diabetes more easily (despite their supposedly agricultural backgrounds) upon consuming sugar and gluten grains but they do not tend to become overtly obese in doing so. A relatively lean, type 2 diabetic (vs. a typically obese Western diabetic) is the standard in East Asia and I suspect in Southeast Asian countries like Indonesia and Malaysia. The reason for this, I suspect, is that they do not produce as much insulin as whites or blacks.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on June 17, 2011
at 02:36 AM

I dont' think you can make clean conclusions like that. We can make clean conclusions when we examine island nations like Khitava or Papua New Guinea that was not corrupted by gluten grains and refined sugar. Anywhere else it will necessarily be mixed: the point is that this mix is "synergistic" and the toxin triples its toxicidity, which is the definition of a toxin and toxidity anyway. Yes, Taubes focuses on sugar (fructose) but I don't think you can ignore gluten, which seems to be behind pretty much all autoimmune diseases. That would include T1 and autoimmune forms of diabetes.

40c6ba923990736e21efd26cbcb2fcba

on June 16, 2011
at 03:26 PM

So what can we say about pasta-eating societies if it is gluten that breaks the camels back. Or is it fructose from non-natural sources...that pediatric in LA seems to think that fructose is the issue and Taubes has mentioned that that may be the key.

1
597f180ab64e771bbc893158ac1b45eb

(10)

on August 01, 2013
at 02:59 AM

Dietitians over here still believe that fat makes you fat and gives you heart disease. They're now even recommending 'heart healthy' canola and soybean oil over animal fats and coconut oil for cooking... I hate my country.

1
Medium avatar

on June 16, 2011
at 05:45 PM

Depends entirely upon their fructose intake. Aside from maybe some extremely rare cases, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say there's no type-II diabetes without a prolonged heavy fructose intake.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on June 17, 2011
at 02:22 AM

But then, gluten seems to be the driver of all autoimmune diseases. So not only would gluten drive T1 diabetes but also T1.5 or LADA ... that would be about 1/5 of all adult T2 diabetics who are actually autoimmne diabetics and become insulin-dependent. So, yes, gluten does cause diabetes on its own, I would say, INDEPENDENT OF fructose consumption.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5147)

on June 16, 2011
at 06:44 PM

I would say you're largely correct. However, gluten will cause T1 diabetes. If you feed gluten to a toddler s/he'll have 5 times more chance of developing T1 diabetes and Crohn's during childhood and beyond. The 2 are comorbidities and are directly linked to gluten and its effects -- gut permeability.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on June 16, 2011
at 08:57 PM

Come back from that limb, Travis! Three people I personally know are normal weight or underweight diabetics who spent their life eating rice and potatoes, with very little sugar. I find it hard to believe I'm the only person with this experience.

1
4a2eb5c8a218e6c830a32566fe1ddab4

on June 16, 2011
at 05:00 PM

Based on my experiences with my (Indonesian) wife, her family and friends, I would say that Indonesian food tends to be much less healthy than stereotypcial "Asian" cuisines. There are an awful lot of greasy and fried foods that I attribute to their several hundred year period under Dutch colonization. My wife's mother had a serious stroke in her early 50's and both of her parents have heart disease in their mid 60's. My wife is about 20 lbs overweight and has high blood pressure but her diet is more SAD than Indonsian.

They eat tremendous amounts of rice but also a lot of PUFA's and their "Kecup" (pronounced like "ketchup") is a VERY highly sweetened soy sauce and they eat it on many of their dishes. Other than that, their cuisine is like a mixture of Indian and Thai with lots of curries, coconut milk and peppers.

I was surprised to discover that what they eat is very different from what I expected and have experienced with people from other Asian countries (primarily China and Vietnam). Those cuisines tended to be healthier in their ingredients.

I will also add that my wife's dad struggles with his weight. He eats constantly and develops a typical "gut" that you often see in American men and then he increases his activity and loses it. This has been a continuous cycle for as long as I've known him and it happens whether he's here in the states (where he eats more Indonesian food than American) or back home in Indonesia.

58cc17a77bca6e503dcf6bf6471b76a1

(478)

on August 18, 2011
at 10:46 PM

As a person who grew up in Indonesia, I am completely agree with you! Most traditional Indonesian dishes are either deep fried, overly sweet or overly spicy.

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