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The dangers of Paleo: Honest opinions please

Commented on September 19, 2013
Created September 15, 2013 at 9:47 PM

Has anyone experienced any of this:

http://180degreehealth.com/2011/06/paleo-fail

I have a friend who went through similar feelings and quit paleo and now is fatter and unhealthier than ever,

I have a sneaking suspicion that web page is a sneaky pro-vegan page. But has anyone had similiar experiences to this guy?

Medium avatar

(20)

on September 19, 2013
at 02:35 AM

I totally agree - I wasn't saying don't use common sense. If you have a problem it is important to figure out what to do about it - but that doesn't mean you use unreal food. I have colitis - I still eat real food.

3013d1b44fd7f65b4c8412f229d1d00e

on September 18, 2013
at 10:29 PM

For starters--

1. If you're allergic/intolerant, the "realness" of a food means nothing;

2. Too much of anything can cause problems; and

3. Compromised gut health can turn any food into a problem.

D33a8d5f095a8532ddf7a0d6c27bfe63

(578)

on September 18, 2013
at 05:02 PM

Just how big is the Paleo rock that you've been living under?

13f174d097c9293ed7d079dba783217c

(43)

on September 18, 2013
at 12:10 PM

because screw logic. That's how vegans look at everything lol

13f174d097c9293ed7d079dba783217c

(43)

on September 18, 2013
at 12:07 PM

LOLOLOLOL! Best comment ever :)

3bc294cb7745a5e99612ff886ca00101

(1186)

on September 18, 2013
at 10:58 AM

You might become dangerously sexy...

00c8eb3f6e6a1884216044ca29cf868a

on September 18, 2013
at 07:39 AM

It's an interesting coincidence that the only people I see claiming widespread "health problems" from Paleo are hucksters selling their own diet advice and/or supplements.

D33a8d5f095a8532ddf7a0d6c27bfe63

(578)

on September 18, 2013
at 06:15 AM

We have very short-term memory. Ketosis was synonymous with Paleo for a very long time because of pseudoscience. Cavemen hunting, skinning and eating raw meat becuz that's all there was to eat. Then we realized they were actually hunter-gatherers, so they ate some green leafies and seasonal fruit. Then we realized, wait a minute, we have amylase ... so they must have had some safe starches by galore! Yams, potatoes, taroes. What people don't understand is that you come here after hearing about Cordain and Robb Wolf, not PHD. Wolf changed his stance but how many people really know?

D33a8d5f095a8532ddf7a0d6c27bfe63

(578)

on September 18, 2013
at 06:04 AM

Where does Asprey say you need 150g of carbs. The guy actually claims metabolic advantage when VLCing. All his fat loss was from VLCing/ketosis. Also, tell me where Nora says that. Nora actually preaches ridiculous protein restriction. She wants you to do about 80% of bodyweight in kg as protein. If you're 70, that's a miniscule amount: 56 grams. You think you can keep out of ketosis with that much protein and zero carbs? You've got some details wrong. I'll believe you, however, if you can produce the correct citations.

543a65b3004bf5a51974fbdd60d666bb

(4493)

on September 18, 2013
at 03:41 AM

Allison's comment was referring to the article you linked, where it reads "6) Began to gain fat and lose muscle..."

543a65b3004bf5a51974fbdd60d666bb

(4493)

on September 18, 2013
at 03:37 AM

is Ron Rosedale paleo...from memory he was (still is?) a vlc proponent

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on September 16, 2013
at 11:44 AM

Looming health crisis… bahahahaha.

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on September 16, 2013
at 06:01 AM

>>>this growing health problem<<< >>>>>The wrong version is just too dangerous<<<<<<

Perhaps you could be specific?

>>>>Way too many people are getting sick doing Paleo<<<<<< stats? cite?

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on September 16, 2013
at 02:59 AM

As an athlete..you "earn" your carbs. You're expending energy, you need to eat to provide energy. My daily activity is typically walking ~4 miles as a natural part of my work & life. I don't workout much, so don't need many carbs.

62540d0db54aeb524b30f5cc0b6abc3f

on September 15, 2013
at 10:02 PM

No offense to you but read properly then answer. No where did I say he "lost uscle" .

52ad7ee5eef0d7339d0977bd7a2ceb8a

(416)

on September 15, 2013
at 09:57 PM

no offense to this person... but losing muscle despite (even if a little) protein intake and moderate exercise... something was wrong with him.

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10 Answers

0
Medium avatar

(20)

on September 19, 2013
at 02:29 AM

Curious about the "wrong version" of Paleo you speak of. I don't know much about Matt or Sally but eating meat and vegetables is hard to do wrong unless you really try. I grew up eating meat and vegetables and I am at the ripe old age of 61 - not that it means anything. You could eat a bowl a rice a day and live for a long time probably. If you don't have common sense and use your built in instinct on what is right for you I suppose you could get into trouble eating the "wrong version" whatever that is.

I would love to hear about the "wrong version" and what you think should be done about it.

0
32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on September 16, 2013
at 11:50 AM

Matt Stone mistakenly thought paleo meant ketogenic long ago, and that simply didn't work for him. He misinterpreted what paleo should be. I think there's some value in getting a more complete paleo framework out there. I think he does it very wrong though, taking pages from the Ray Peat playbook, and other nonsense. Aside from Cordain, who's promoting strict low-carb paleo nowadays? Maybe a handful of bloggers. Most paleo gurus have evolved - lower carb paleo is a good starting point, but dial in some good carbs as needed. No need for daily pints of Hagendazs, a la Matt Stone/Ray Peat.

D33a8d5f095a8532ddf7a0d6c27bfe63

(578)

on September 18, 2013
at 06:15 AM

We have very short-term memory. Ketosis was synonymous with Paleo for a very long time because of pseudoscience. Cavemen hunting, skinning and eating raw meat becuz that's all there was to eat. Then we realized they were actually hunter-gatherers, so they ate some green leafies and seasonal fruit. Then we realized, wait a minute, we have amylase ... so they must have had some safe starches by galore! Yams, potatoes, taroes. What people don't understand is that you come here after hearing about Cordain and Robb Wolf, not PHD. Wolf changed his stance but how many people really know?

543a65b3004bf5a51974fbdd60d666bb

(4493)

on September 18, 2013
at 03:37 AM

is Ron Rosedale paleo...from memory he was (still is?) a vlc proponent

0
96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19413)

on September 16, 2013
at 10:15 AM

That's Matt Stone's BS site, he's had a chip on his shoulder for paleo for a long time now. Like any broken clock, he's right 2x a day, for one second each go around.

Incase you're not savvy to that game, if you want to stir up traffic to your site and get lots of attention, just push people's buttons and pick a controversial, but incorrect stance by nitpicking at a very small problem and make it look like a big huge problem. This is why to a smaller extent there are others with their own version of paleo that go by a different name - they want to own a trademark, and paleo is more of a generic term. Sort of like how Kleenex and Xerox became generic terms where they once were trademarks.

This posting should clarify that the site is meant as a troll (for those who are slow in the back, dihydrogen monoxide can be written as H2O, commonly known as water.):

http://180degreehealth.com/2013/09/avoid-dihydrogen-monoxide

Notice how he wants to puff himself up by mentioning he's been around teh internets (misspelling intended here to point out a certain mentality) for half a decade and he has communicated with tens of thousands of people. Ooooh, impressive. Until you realize that any boob can set up a blog and post whatever inanity pops into his head at any time, and rile up tens of thousands of people to anger against him. Oh, and what's that on the right hand frame, is it something he hopes you will buy? With what appears to be loads of manuals and CDs or DVDs. Uh huh, bingo. The boy has something to sell you, but please ignore the faint smell of snake oil.

Nice plan:

  1. Collect Underpants
  2. ????
  3. Profit.
Or in other words:
  1. Attack a growing but successful movement that has helped hundrends of thousands.
  2. Steer people to his BS
  3. Profit.
Paleo has never been a single diet, there are variations, but they all have a few things in common. He's attacking a specific version, the very low carb version, which works very nicely to help people lose fat - and even on this there are variations. You can go very low carb and eat 3 meals a day, or you can do an Intermittent Fast, or you can do alternate day fasting, etc. None of these variations are specific to paleo, and a lot comes from something called Lean Gains. You can do it wrong by doing IFs and very low carb and stick with it for a very long time, and also not get enough protein to start gluconeogenesis. This is what he's rambling on about.

If you follow any of the normal paleo plans and books, you will never fall into that trap. Even things like the Bulletproof diet will tell you that you need around 150g of carbs once in a while, and Nora Gedgaudas's Primal Body Primal Mind, who is very much pro low carb will point out that you need enough protein to make enough carbs to sustain your brain cells and red blood cells.

The only danger here, and possibly his real plan, is to scare new folks away from paleo, which, again is generic, and drive them to his specific brand.

Instead, look into any of these books: Practical Paleo, The Paleo Solution, Perfect Health Diet, Primal Body/Primal Mind, New Evolution Diet, Primal Blueprint.

Edit: @Sataran

For some reason paleohacks is not working, I can't submit comments, just sits there and hangs without posting them, so had to reply to your comment by editing my answer. Grrr..

From http://www.bulletproofexec.com/start-the-bulletproof-diet/ under key points: "5-30 percent carbohydrate" - in an "average" 2000kcal diet, the middle of that is 20%, 20% of 2000kcals is 400kcals or 100g of carbs. That 2000kcal average is not for an active person, and far away from someone who eats his "4500 calories while losing weight" line. In various podcasts, and the Creative Live seminar he explicitly mentions eating around 150g carbs as a refeed.

Quote from Primal Body Primal Mind:

Note: ideal body weight here refers to "Lean Body Mass" .8g/kg=1.8g/lbs - most body builders use 1.0-1.2g/lbs of lean body mass as the formula for how much protein.

So she's right, and this allows plenty for gluconeogenesis for red blood cells and brain cells, but not so much as to get out of ketosis. She's just warning against overdoing it there. Even Asprey warns against too much protein being toxic, 1.8g/lbs is way too much.

So you just misread those.

D33a8d5f095a8532ddf7a0d6c27bfe63

(578)

on September 18, 2013
at 06:04 AM

Where does Asprey say you need 150g of carbs. The guy actually claims metabolic advantage when VLCing. All his fat loss was from VLCing/ketosis. Also, tell me where Nora says that. Nora actually preaches ridiculous protein restriction. She wants you to do about 80% of bodyweight in kg as protein. If you're 70, that's a miniscule amount: 56 grams. You think you can keep out of ketosis with that much protein and zero carbs? You've got some details wrong. I'll believe you, however, if you can produce the correct citations.

0
D33a8d5f095a8532ddf7a0d6c27bfe63

(578)

on September 16, 2013
at 05:21 AM

Matt has come full circle. 3 years ago, I used to think who is this guy? He must be a salesman. Or just an attention whore. Now I know where he's coming from. He has a substantive message for lots of people doing Paleo, especially those doing the VLC and ketogenic version assuming it qualifies as Paleo. Most people will have problems with the way he delivers his message. But his points are substantive and legitimate.

He's right that if you're not 180 degrees confused by nutrition, you haven't studied the subject long enough. You have to be completely confused, feel like you've been enlightened, start all over again, and then realize that the truth is somewhere between the two extremes you've crossed.

I used to think of Matt and Sally Fallon as oddities and divisive figures. I no longer do. They know something most people in Paleo don't. Some people think this is a big tent and everyone should act like we're all God's children. I actually think Matt and Sally are right and that there is really a chance of a big health crisis looming for Paleo. In about 5 years, I really don't think Paleo will exist in its current form. Those left standing with their reputations intact will be those advocating the right and safe version of Paleo. As someone mentioned at the AHS, the movement could be completely derailed by a health crisis, if ever the mainstream media gets a hold of this growing health problem. Paleo should feel lucky that it's still under the radar.

The wrong version is just too dangerous and creating too many health problems for those who unwittingly venture into Paleo. Way too many people are getting sick doing Paleo and their sickness can be traced directly to the wrong version of Paleo. This is why Sally had to do what she did. Matt has been doing this for years.

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on September 16, 2013
at 06:01 AM

>>>this growing health problem<<< >>>>>The wrong version is just too dangerous<<<<<<

Perhaps you could be specific?

>>>>Way too many people are getting sick doing Paleo<<<<<< stats? cite?

00c8eb3f6e6a1884216044ca29cf868a

on September 18, 2013
at 07:39 AM

It's an interesting coincidence that the only people I see claiming widespread "health problems" from Paleo are hucksters selling their own diet advice and/or supplements.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on September 16, 2013
at 11:44 AM

Looming health crisis… bahahahaha.

0
17ddb44b8762b37bcf0c7706cb2fbc78

on September 16, 2013
at 02:44 AM

As an athlete, I had some similar issues.

Make sure you eat enough carbs for your activity, eat sufficient calories, get enough sodium, and supplement intelligently and you'll be fine. My failure to do all of these things caused insomnia and some other issues.

Also, I kind of made "paleo" eating a hobby. For me, I think a better approach would have been to just make sure I ate the good stuff and ditched the really bad stuff and then just enjoyed life. Looking back, hyper focus on diet was not fun and started to take away from other hobbies. That's just me - some people may enjoy eating as a hobby - which is fine. My two cents.

F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on September 16, 2013
at 02:59 AM

As an athlete..you "earn" your carbs. You're expending energy, you need to eat to provide energy. My daily activity is typically walking ~4 miles as a natural part of my work & life. I don't workout much, so don't need many carbs.

0
F291857fa12a0291688ea994343156dc

(720)

on September 16, 2013
at 01:39 AM

The author lost all credibility with the lame dinosaur graphic.....

As for his article... where's the beef, I mean.... the numbers, the papers, the data? I'm tired of hearing "low carb" vaguely talked about. How about some macro %'s and total carbs per day?

About half of the comments on the article call BS on it and the upvotes are feel good comments.

IMO there is no "one size fits all" diet / way of eating. There might be some useful guidelines but not everyone tolerates all foods similarly. Raw broc is a real problem for me I but tolerate dairy & I like it ,so I do fermented.

I'm not super active so I minimize carbs in general. I do eat lot of green leafy veggies & the cruciferous ones but there's not a lot of carbs there. I avoid "fast" carbs 100%.

0
3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on September 15, 2013
at 11:07 PM

the article is about low carb paleo. I think I tend to agree with that for healthy people. For people with severe obesity, epilepsy, or metabolic issues, low carb may indeed provide a suitable answer. But for a health person, carbing up between 75-200g carbs per day can be an extremely healthy part of the diet.

0
Medium avatar

(20)

on September 15, 2013
at 10:57 PM

How could eating real food be dangerous?

13f174d097c9293ed7d079dba783217c

(43)

on September 18, 2013
at 12:10 PM

because screw logic. That's how vegans look at everything lol

3013d1b44fd7f65b4c8412f229d1d00e

on September 18, 2013
at 10:29 PM

For starters--

1. If you're allergic/intolerant, the "realness" of a food means nothing;

2. Too much of anything can cause problems; and

3. Compromised gut health can turn any food into a problem.

0
Medium avatar

(238)

on September 15, 2013
at 10:47 PM

That link is a pure promotional piece to sell you something. I guess the same can be said for Paleo sites, but as other poster points out, Paleo is not ketosis or near zero carbs - it is about eliminating unhealthy foods based upon the way early man would have eaten. Exercise similar to the way those people would have by lifting heavy things and running from or to preditors/prey.

0
7904c7276d7e48f1be887fabd263bfd9

(300)

on September 15, 2013
at 10:09 PM

i feel like a lot of people dont have a good understanding of what paleo is.... then often mistake paleo for ketosis... and even then they dont understand how ketosis should be done. ofcourse if u dont eat enough carbs your going to mess yourself up, especially if like in that story they exercise a lot and limit their salt intake??? like wtf, do you even paleo???

mostly people just need to be educated and given some common sense. diets are not one size fits all, and when you religiously follow a diet that you dont know much about your probably setting yourself up for some hurt.

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