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Why is it that so many people still eat dairy?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created July 23, 2011 at 7:31 PM

Possible Duplicate:
Please could you explain the dairy debate in non scientific terms.

If there is any specific food that cannot be created without domestication (the crucial component to the neolithic transition) it is dairy. Most plant based foods that are out when taking on a paleolithic diet at least have an origin that wasn't domesticated. I mean you could make the same argument for any meat that isn't 100% grass fed as well but with dairy the very product itself was never ingested without domestication. I see a lot of people who say they eat grass fed butter and whatnot. I just don't get it, have these people never been to a dairy? Step in to one and you know right away that there is nothing paleo about dairy. Also, having been to lots of organic or "grass-fed" dairies there is a TON of leeway with what grass fed means. Most of those cattle are heavily supplemented with grains...

814c16f02223f7cca63d7698159957e5

on July 25, 2011
at 06:15 PM

thanks for that heads up!

814c16f02223f7cca63d7698159957e5

on July 23, 2011
at 09:18 PM

Sorry for the multiple responses...I guess the crux fo my argument here is the necessity of domestication. I understand hunting and scavenging with milk as a by-product that is totally understandable. But the domestication of an animal for production is not only neolithic it is a push against wildness. Paleo diets that have no connection to or understanding of wildness are meaningless. Being paleolithic is about a lot more than just what you eat. It is about learning and living in a paleolithic way. We can never "go back" but we, and the animals we domesticate, can be feral.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on July 23, 2011
at 09:14 PM

kudos shred. but...people here only like to discuss non-philosophical points:(

Medium avatar

(19469)

on July 23, 2011
at 09:14 PM

Will do Melissa.

814c16f02223f7cca63d7698159957e5

on July 23, 2011
at 09:06 PM

Also, I have seen some great mob grazing dairy set ups. But when it comes to milking, even in a very very low tech set up, there is no way around strapping in the animal to be milked.

814c16f02223f7cca63d7698159957e5

on July 23, 2011
at 09:03 PM

I live in PA. Do you visit or see the pictures? There is an intrinsic nature to dairy (premature weening) which puts all of them out of the realm of acceptable in my mind. Whats idyllic?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on July 23, 2011
at 08:18 PM

feralshed, where do you live? plenty of really idyllic dairy ops in the Hudson Valley, esp goat and sheep. Don't eat much myself since I'm pretty lactose intolerant tho.

814c16f02223f7cca63d7698159957e5

on July 23, 2011
at 08:06 PM

Pastoral societies and horticulturalists are definitely much more appealing. That being said, they are not paleolithic and have made a dependency on domestication. Cutting out milk bags is not really analogous to method or level of dairy currently consumed. But fair enough for proving consumption. I work for a large organic food coop as a buyer and have seen many of these operations produce eggs, meat, dairy.I have seen great meat, eggs, and produce set ups but I have never seen a dairy that I would even consider using. Chained in heads with their food stuck 6 inches from their face.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on July 23, 2011
at 08:06 PM

I closed this original question, but can you post this on the other question? It's a very good answer.

814c16f02223f7cca63d7698159957e5

on July 23, 2011
at 07:52 PM

it has been discuss in, at least in most of what I am seeing, a mostly nutritional frame. I am more asking about how there can be justification for dairy with a paleolithic/neolithic awareness. Also, how that awareness impacts our view of domestication. Shouldn't at least a tame advocacy for wildness be implicit in something that calls itself paleo?

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on July 23, 2011
at 07:40 PM

Have a look around the site, this has been discussed frequently. E.g., http://paleohacks.com/questions/43010/whats-the-problem-with-milk-and-dairy and http://paleohacks.com/questions/35176/please-could-you-explain-the-dairy-debate-in-non-scientific-terms

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1 Answers

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Medium avatar

(19469)

on July 23, 2011
at 07:52 PM

Domestication of ruminants is actually not necessary to procure dairy, it simply allows dairy to be predictably available. The Comanche tribe regularly slaughtered lactating buffalo cows, cutting out the milk bag and drinking it warm, mixed with blood. They also would kill suckling calves and cut out the curdled milk from their stomachs (rennet, used in modern cheese making, is still sourced from calves stomachs) as it was a sort of cheese. (Read more in "Primal Living on the American Plains")

While they are not hunter-gatherers in the "paleolithic" mold, the semi-nomadic Maasai did quite well living off of a milk, meat, and blood based diet. From what I've seen, however, they did include certain roots/herbs that may have offset the cholesterol-raising effects of such foods. (read more about milk in traditional diets here)

I definitely agree that most diary farms are "not Paleo". While some farmers treat their cows humanely, give them regular access to pasture, etc. many others are content to simply stamp a picture of such bucolic images on their milk carton.

The regulations governing labels such as "organic", "Free range", and now even "pastured" or "pasture-raised" are constantly under attack by Big Food. The main industry players are only interested in "shareholder value" and as such, shortcuts, deceptions, and half-truths are inevitable. The letter of the law may be followed, but the spirit is not.

Full disclosure: When given the choice of neolithic foodstuffs, I personally lean towards partial inclusion of dairy products, sourced as best as I can, and of the fermented and high-fat ilk.

814c16f02223f7cca63d7698159957e5

on July 23, 2011
at 09:06 PM

Also, I have seen some great mob grazing dairy set ups. But when it comes to milking, even in a very very low tech set up, there is no way around strapping in the animal to be milked.

814c16f02223f7cca63d7698159957e5

on July 23, 2011
at 09:18 PM

Sorry for the multiple responses...I guess the crux fo my argument here is the necessity of domestication. I understand hunting and scavenging with milk as a by-product that is totally understandable. But the domestication of an animal for production is not only neolithic it is a push against wildness. Paleo diets that have no connection to or understanding of wildness are meaningless. Being paleolithic is about a lot more than just what you eat. It is about learning and living in a paleolithic way. We can never "go back" but we, and the animals we domesticate, can be feral.

814c16f02223f7cca63d7698159957e5

on July 23, 2011
at 09:03 PM

I live in PA. Do you visit or see the pictures? There is an intrinsic nature to dairy (premature weening) which puts all of them out of the realm of acceptable in my mind. Whats idyllic?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on July 23, 2011
at 08:06 PM

I closed this original question, but can you post this on the other question? It's a very good answer.

Medium avatar

(19469)

on July 23, 2011
at 09:14 PM

Will do Melissa.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on July 23, 2011
at 08:18 PM

feralshed, where do you live? plenty of really idyllic dairy ops in the Hudson Valley, esp goat and sheep. Don't eat much myself since I'm pretty lactose intolerant tho.

814c16f02223f7cca63d7698159957e5

on July 23, 2011
at 08:06 PM

Pastoral societies and horticulturalists are definitely much more appealing. That being said, they are not paleolithic and have made a dependency on domestication. Cutting out milk bags is not really analogous to method or level of dairy currently consumed. But fair enough for proving consumption. I work for a large organic food coop as a buyer and have seen many of these operations produce eggs, meat, dairy.I have seen great meat, eggs, and produce set ups but I have never seen a dairy that I would even consider using. Chained in heads with their food stuck 6 inches from their face.

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