4

votes

Time to include Dairy in the "Standard Paleo"

Answered on August 24, 2014
Created July 23, 2012 at 11:52 PM

Yes, I know its a template, some choose to add, some don't. But does the research, yes this is just observational, back that adding whole fat dairy is specifically beneficial? http://www.springerlink.com/content/1665l525j917h055/

Bece741db5f5fed6bafa12e3548f973f

(715)

on August 03, 2012
at 02:24 PM

The thing is some people do have an issue. If you look at previous posts on here, there are those people who tend to promote the idea that cutting the dairy is huge. I take a Greek Yogurt and a "Naked" juice on nearly every canoe trip without giving a second thought to whether it's Paleo. I eat my meat at home.

5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on July 24, 2012
at 04:51 PM

Once you get outside the US, Europe and Australia, the percentages go way, way up.

5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on July 24, 2012
at 04:50 PM

Thirty to 50 million Americans (adults and children) are lactose intolerant. The disorder affects some populations more than others: Seventy-five percent of all African-American, Jewish, Mexican-American, and Native American adults are lactose intolerant. Ninety percent of Asian-American adults are lactose intolerant. Lactose intolerance is least common among people with a northern European heritage. http://medicalcenter.osu.edu/patientcare/healthcare_services/digestive_disorders/lactose_intolerance/Pages/index.aspx

5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on July 24, 2012
at 04:42 PM

Many people of northern European ancestory tolerate dairy, at least the lactose part. So do many people of Mid-Eastern, northern Indian or Masai ancestry. The vast majority of people with different ancestries (the majority of the earths population) do not tolerate lactose. To recommend a food as paleo when most of the worlds people can't eat it is kind of Eurocentric. There are also other intolerances to dairy that are pretty wide spread other than the lactose problem.

5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on July 24, 2012
at 03:53 AM

Blood tests are obviously best, but for me, mood swings related to BG are very indicative. When I'm eating right BG doesn't swing as much (tested) and my moods stay even. So yeah, I go by that a lot. Also by hunger levels. If I'm getting big BG swings, I'll get desperately hungry.

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on July 24, 2012
at 03:35 AM

Totally agreed on the "if your genes match up." That's a very important point. I have pointed it out more specifically but was called very mean things when I did.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on July 24, 2012
at 03:33 AM

I meant "dairy" in its commercial forms is one of the most problematic foods. Most people do not have access to or are not interested in jumping the hurdles necessary to procure raw dairy or make their own yogurt....which I do both. Oh, and I eat good cheese. So you could easily argue that it is not dairy that is the problem, but the processing of it (or the cows)....back to that. And as for your cite, this was an observation.....however there are the standard intolerance issues.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on July 24, 2012
at 03:25 AM

Sorry Shari, I meant "dairy" in its commercial forms is one of the most problematic foods. Most people do not have access to or are not interested in jumping the hurdles necessary to procure raw dairy or their own yogurt....which I do both. Oh, and I eat good cheese.

1096aa84d006fe967128ffbd37e8070e

(1002)

on July 24, 2012
at 02:46 AM

Not to be dense, but Karen, how do you know what is going on with your insulin resistance? Is there a simple way you can tell if it's good or bad, or do you have to do a blood test?

61844af1187e745e09bb394cbd28cf23

(11058)

on July 24, 2012
at 01:56 AM

Coconut oil doesn't raise my glucose levels, but I've never had it on its own. I always use it to cook proteins or veggies.

5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on July 24, 2012
at 01:35 AM

I'm talking about the pre-diabetes/metabolic syndrome/syndrome X/etc, etc under any other name. That's the name my doctor used. I check my BG occasionally. It seems to be staying in the acceptable range lately so I haven't been checking it much. I've never noticed any problem with coconut oil, but not sure I've ever tested after having a lot.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 24, 2012
at 01:21 AM

Are you talking physiological insulin resistance, as in, from your muscles burning fat & low carb (low blood insulin) btw? Do you use a blood tester? And does coconut oil do a similar thing for you?

5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on July 24, 2012
at 01:18 AM

I'll certainly give the Kerrygold butter a try again. I adore ghee, but it's expensive to buy, and time consuming to make.

5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on July 24, 2012
at 01:16 AM

Sorry, took it wrong. I haven't tested the limits recently. I'm finishing up a W30 and the only dairy I've been eating is ghee. The congestion and glucose swings have stopped. I know that I got a very noticeable BG reaction to full fat greek yogurt, so I'm figuring I'll have to keep it to at the very least very high fat dairy. Not eager to try it right now. Fortunately I'm not a hard core cheese lover and I'm happy with coconut milk in my coffee or even having it black.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 24, 2012
at 01:09 AM

Some fermented dairy is very low in lactose and galactose (best example aged cheddar cheese). But then again, some people have casien intolerance.

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on July 24, 2012
at 12:47 AM

I completely agree. I eat dairy because I am lucky enough to be completely tolerant of it, but that's why I call my eating style Primal, not Paleo.

C45d7e96acd83d3a6f58193dbc140e86

on July 24, 2012
at 12:44 AM

Agreed that dairy is great for those that tolerate it. But many don't. I use heavy cream daily.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on July 24, 2012
at 12:41 AM

Yes! I think bare bones is the way to start but I think people shouldn't be afraid to have dairy in their diet just because cavemen weren't eating cheese. They certainly didn't eschew it when it was available to them. Raw and fermented dairy is awesome. I'd like a cite for the "most problematic food for people in general" though. I would not have thought that. From observation it seems to me most do just fine with it.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on July 24, 2012
at 12:31 AM

They shouldn't but they sure seem to. I get so sick of people saying no dairy on paleo. Blah.

61844af1187e745e09bb394cbd28cf23

(11058)

on July 24, 2012
at 12:27 AM

I was asking out of curiosity, not necessarily in context of this discussion. My dairy is limited to raw hard cheeses and Kerrygold butter. Occasionally I will have some heavy cream, but even it messes with my glucose levels.

5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on July 24, 2012
at 12:20 AM

I assume the products with more milk sugar and milk proteins. Those are also the major contenders for congestion miseries. My specifics don't really matter for this discussion though. The problem of adding dairy to the paleo definition is that it isn't evolutionarily appropriate for a large percentage of the worlds population. Doesn't mean some people can't have it, just means paleo shouldn't include it in the list of generally appropriate for all.

61844af1187e745e09bb394cbd28cf23

(11058)

on July 24, 2012
at 12:09 AM

Karen, are there specific forms of dairy that affect your IR more than others?

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10 Answers

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8
3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on July 24, 2012
at 12:03 AM

"Standard Paleo" is an elimination diet. Add stuff back in at your own relative experience and risk assessment.

For instance in my case after removal and reintroduction I've found raw or fermented dairy is good, and there is evidence that traditional cultures used it and thrived. However, you have to be conscious to the fact that it is one of the most problematic foods for people in general.

I cant say the same for most the other things that I have eliminated.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on July 24, 2012
at 03:33 AM

I meant "dairy" in its commercial forms is one of the most problematic foods. Most people do not have access to or are not interested in jumping the hurdles necessary to procure raw dairy or make their own yogurt....which I do both. Oh, and I eat good cheese. So you could easily argue that it is not dairy that is the problem, but the processing of it (or the cows)....back to that. And as for your cite, this was an observation.....however there are the standard intolerance issues.

5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on July 24, 2012
at 04:51 PM

Once you get outside the US, Europe and Australia, the percentages go way, way up.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on July 24, 2012
at 12:41 AM

Yes! I think bare bones is the way to start but I think people shouldn't be afraid to have dairy in their diet just because cavemen weren't eating cheese. They certainly didn't eschew it when it was available to them. Raw and fermented dairy is awesome. I'd like a cite for the "most problematic food for people in general" though. I would not have thought that. From observation it seems to me most do just fine with it.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on July 24, 2012
at 03:25 AM

Sorry Shari, I meant "dairy" in its commercial forms is one of the most problematic foods. Most people do not have access to or are not interested in jumping the hurdles necessary to procure raw dairy or their own yogurt....which I do both. Oh, and I eat good cheese.

5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on July 24, 2012
at 04:42 PM

Many people of northern European ancestory tolerate dairy, at least the lactose part. So do many people of Mid-Eastern, northern Indian or Masai ancestry. The vast majority of people with different ancestries (the majority of the earths population) do not tolerate lactose. To recommend a food as paleo when most of the worlds people can't eat it is kind of Eurocentric. There are also other intolerances to dairy that are pretty wide spread other than the lactose problem.

5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on July 24, 2012
at 04:50 PM

Thirty to 50 million Americans (adults and children) are lactose intolerant. The disorder affects some populations more than others: Seventy-five percent of all African-American, Jewish, Mexican-American, and Native American adults are lactose intolerant. Ninety percent of Asian-American adults are lactose intolerant. Lactose intolerance is least common among people with a northern European heritage. http://medicalcenter.osu.edu/patientcare/healthcare_services/digestive_disorders/lactose_intolerance/Pages/index.aspx

8
5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on July 24, 2012
at 12:07 AM

I don't think dairy should be included as standard. Too many people do not even have the gene(s) that allows continued production of lactase into adulthood.

Dairy can be acceptable for some people, although not all even that tolerate lactose. I don't get digestive issues from dairy, but I get horrid congestion and it's hell with my insulin resistance.

People who can eat dairy can just say that it's an acceptable addition for them personally, not that it's paleo. If they really need a label, it falls within the primal way of eating.

5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on July 24, 2012
at 01:18 AM

I'll certainly give the Kerrygold butter a try again. I adore ghee, but it's expensive to buy, and time consuming to make.

61844af1187e745e09bb394cbd28cf23

(11058)

on July 24, 2012
at 01:56 AM

Coconut oil doesn't raise my glucose levels, but I've never had it on its own. I always use it to cook proteins or veggies.

5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on July 24, 2012
at 03:53 AM

Blood tests are obviously best, but for me, mood swings related to BG are very indicative. When I'm eating right BG doesn't swing as much (tested) and my moods stay even. So yeah, I go by that a lot. Also by hunger levels. If I'm getting big BG swings, I'll get desperately hungry.

5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on July 24, 2012
at 01:35 AM

I'm talking about the pre-diabetes/metabolic syndrome/syndrome X/etc, etc under any other name. That's the name my doctor used. I check my BG occasionally. It seems to be staying in the acceptable range lately so I haven't been checking it much. I've never noticed any problem with coconut oil, but not sure I've ever tested after having a lot.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 24, 2012
at 01:21 AM

Are you talking physiological insulin resistance, as in, from your muscles burning fat & low carb (low blood insulin) btw? Do you use a blood tester? And does coconut oil do a similar thing for you?

61844af1187e745e09bb394cbd28cf23

(11058)

on July 24, 2012
at 12:09 AM

Karen, are there specific forms of dairy that affect your IR more than others?

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 24, 2012
at 01:09 AM

Some fermented dairy is very low in lactose and galactose (best example aged cheddar cheese). But then again, some people have casien intolerance.

61844af1187e745e09bb394cbd28cf23

(11058)

on July 24, 2012
at 12:27 AM

I was asking out of curiosity, not necessarily in context of this discussion. My dairy is limited to raw hard cheeses and Kerrygold butter. Occasionally I will have some heavy cream, but even it messes with my glucose levels.

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on July 24, 2012
at 12:47 AM

I completely agree. I eat dairy because I am lucky enough to be completely tolerant of it, but that's why I call my eating style Primal, not Paleo.

1096aa84d006fe967128ffbd37e8070e

(1002)

on July 24, 2012
at 02:46 AM

Not to be dense, but Karen, how do you know what is going on with your insulin resistance? Is there a simple way you can tell if it's good or bad, or do you have to do a blood test?

5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on July 24, 2012
at 01:16 AM

Sorry, took it wrong. I haven't tested the limits recently. I'm finishing up a W30 and the only dairy I've been eating is ghee. The congestion and glucose swings have stopped. I know that I got a very noticeable BG reaction to full fat greek yogurt, so I'm figuring I'll have to keep it to at the very least very high fat dairy. Not eager to try it right now. Fortunately I'm not a hard core cheese lover and I'm happy with coconut milk in my coffee or even having it black.

5ccb98f6ae42ce87e206cf3f6a86039f

(11581)

on July 24, 2012
at 12:20 AM

I assume the products with more milk sugar and milk proteins. Those are also the major contenders for congestion miseries. My specifics don't really matter for this discussion though. The problem of adding dairy to the paleo definition is that it isn't evolutionarily appropriate for a large percentage of the worlds population. Doesn't mean some people can't have it, just means paleo shouldn't include it in the list of generally appropriate for all.

3
98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

on July 24, 2012
at 12:34 AM

I think dairy is absolutely paleo. We know our ancestors did partake. Many people, if not most,seem to do fine with it. With a diet already so restricted I think we shouldn't be so damning of people who want to include it in their diet.

4e184df9c1ed38f61febc5d6cf031921

(5005)

on August 24, 2014
at 07:48 AM

Do we know our ancestors did partake? Sure, after agriculture began - which makes it a neolithic food anyway and only less than 10,000 years of consuming it. But I really can't see hunter gathers rounding up and milking wild bison, elks, antelopes or whatever each morning and releasing them again afterwards some 100,000 years ago. During our however many disputed years of evolution, I can't believe that consuming dairy has been part of our diet for more than perhaps 6 o7 thousand of them.

3
41dfb1a4fecb38d24075ff52f13ccb28

on July 23, 2012
at 11:56 PM

I don't think anyone really has an issue if people use high fat dairy, as long as the person isn't showing any adverse effects from it - weight gain, acne, constipation, etc.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on July 24, 2012
at 12:31 AM

They shouldn't but they sure seem to. I get so sick of people saying no dairy on paleo. Blah.

Bece741db5f5fed6bafa12e3548f973f

(715)

on August 03, 2012
at 02:24 PM

The thing is some people do have an issue. If you look at previous posts on here, there are those people who tend to promote the idea that cutting the dairy is huge. I take a Greek Yogurt and a "Naked" juice on nearly every canoe trip without giving a second thought to whether it's Paleo. I eat my meat at home.

2
6473dcb4b0e9b839615d650c168d2747

(638)

on August 03, 2012
at 08:23 AM

Dairy is delicious. Unfortunately it makes me almost shit my pants and gives me hayfever :(

2
Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on July 24, 2012
at 01:17 AM

What I think is interesting about milk, is that its a SCT (short chain triglyceride). So its quicker to digest than most fats, in a similar way to the MCT's in coconut oil. Basically, dairy is a "quick fat".

I think this could be quite advantageous as a compact quick acting energy source for fat-burners, like coconut oil. I can see how that could perhaps be an issue for those who are not fat-burners though.

And of course theres lactose, galactose and casien intolerances. So i think whether you can safely include any form of milk (including casien free goats milk), will depend on individual genetics for tolerance, as well as the above consideration.

Its quite possible, that dairy, like coconut oil, encourages fat burning (ketone bodies), although I know of no evidence to support that, the mere fact that its "quick", suggests that to me. It would also explain why its inversely associated with obesity in that study.

Its not really paleo per se, but it is primal and ancestoral if your genes match up.

61f9349ad28e3c42d1cec58ba4825a7d

(10490)

on July 24, 2012
at 03:35 AM

Totally agreed on the "if your genes match up." That's a very important point. I have pointed it out more specifically but was called very mean things when I did.

0
Fd0770580b78e8af05c83cb42fb7a4d1

on August 21, 2014
at 07:44 PM

i agree with deniz_1 , it make all things horrible :(

0
C5ff8864f9ff627033b722e1c0cea92b

on August 03, 2012
at 04:24 AM

So many people can't tolerate it. I'm lactose-intolerant, so I shouldn't have milk, but aged cheese is fine. My mum is casein-intolerant, so she can't have any dairy. These things are much more common than you might think, particularly lactose-intolerance amongst the non-white population.

0
B76281713d31d84b01351964530ca841

(65)

on July 24, 2012
at 03:01 AM

I retain water like crazy with even raw dairy. That for me is enough to keep it out. Anyone else see serious water retention with dairy?

0
45ace03a0eff1219943d746cfb1c4197

(3661)

on July 24, 2012
at 12:54 AM

I sure hope not.

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