4

votes

Convince me not to eat dairy.

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created April 24, 2011 at 9:00 PM

I hadn't had dairy in close to 10 months and finally binged on close to 400 grams of sour cream daily for three days, and I feel great. No digestive issues, and no obvious symptoms that I could pick up. But like the saying goes 'tolerated is not optimal' and I'd like to know what potential problems could arise from the consumption of dairy. It's so convenient and tasty and a great way to get easy calories in. I want to be convinced why it should be avoided, despite any reactions, especially if I am looking for optimal health.

7fc82eebafd44badc73c520f44660150

(3275)

on January 19, 2014
at 03:12 PM

I wish you posted the full link and not a shortened one so I could get a sense if it was safe to click. Clicking a random link from a stranger scares me.

7fc82eebafd44badc73c520f44660150

(3275)

on January 19, 2014
at 03:10 PM

You might not notice a difference from having a little bit of arsenic, but it doesn't mean it's good for you! (Pardon my hysterical over-the-top analogy :-)

363d0a0277a8b61ada3a24ab3ad85d5a

(4642)

on October 31, 2011
at 05:34 PM

I have also been tested with a lot positive for it, and am now taking low dose naltrexone and have felt relief from the small symptoms I was having (dry eyes and mouth when I woke up in the mornings only). I would love to hear any dietary commentary on it also.

C471216c9fb4fcf886b7ac84a4046b49

(1371)

on October 31, 2011
at 02:31 PM

omg.... dairy raises insulin because the vitamins minerals and amino acids in it need to be shuttled off throughout the body...GUESS WHAT!?> beef raises insulin too FOR the SAME reason...

B6114a1980b1481fb18206064f3f4a4f

(3924)

on October 31, 2011
at 02:29 PM

I agree that obsessing over details instead of listening to your body seems to miss the point of Paleo eating. I eat Paleo because it frees me to feel my best, not because it chains me to some hard and fast rules that may or may not be right for my body.

50637dfd7dc7a7e811d82283f4f5fd10

(5838)

on May 09, 2011
at 06:19 PM

Namby.. have you any other info on your Sjogren's? Anything that has helped, or makes it worse? I've been getting tested for it and I have a lot of the syptoms.

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on April 26, 2011
at 08:02 AM

Dr.K can you provide some sources for "diary insulinogenic effects" ? Or do I have to say "butter and cream ain't milk and cheese" again.

Medium avatar

(5639)

on April 25, 2011
at 07:30 PM

Ooops, yeah, Organic Valley is what I meant.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 25, 2011
at 05:13 PM

Dairy is extremely insulinogenic. That is why I really don't like it. The A1 casein being point two then the apomorphine effects point three......and studies now linking it to a leaky gut type of situation for others.....I don't advocate it unless you can handle it

03f5a69fde4012b827ebdb6d93b71e7a

(2007)

on April 25, 2011
at 04:53 PM

Are you thinking of Organic Valley? Organic Pastures sells only *raw* dairy, I don't think that has carageenan :)

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on April 25, 2011
at 03:31 PM

+1 for "back on the moo".

84666a86108dee8d11cbbc85b6382083

(2399)

on April 25, 2011
at 08:57 AM

Dairy isn't dairy. Source and type matter enormously. And scare tactics are just lame.

39a1a0bc7855c084ac59df60fdf9c0dd

(1505)

on April 25, 2011
at 03:03 AM

But doc...full fat, heavy cream for instance, doesnt spike insulin, does it?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 25, 2011
at 02:47 AM

If you eat 50 mg of zinc a day, it may be good for you. If you eat a gram of it everyday....What is bad for you in large amounts may be neutral or good for you in limited amounts.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 25, 2011
at 02:43 AM

did you expect it to be? Dairy equal insulin and eventually insulin leads to death. The great circle of life encapsulated.

Db4ad76f6f307a6f577e175710049172

(2297)

on April 25, 2011
at 01:57 AM

The main thing with the GOMAD diet, is drinking a gallon of milk a day. Primarily this just supplies the body with everything it needs to grow, protein, fat, and carbs. GOMAD is really ideal for people who have trouble eating enough calories to gain weight, be it muscle or fat. I first came across it at Stronglifts, where Mehdi was recommending it for people who were having trouble gaining muscle.

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on April 25, 2011
at 01:41 AM

I get super high after consuming dairy, I'll look into casomorphins (never heard of this).

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on April 25, 2011
at 01:39 AM

Well that sucks, it's very difficult for to source grassfed dairy, and I have been relying on the conventional Daisy brand.

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on April 25, 2011
at 01:36 AM

Doesn't sound to encouraging Dr.K LOL.

C1c86f42410cd4788bd9c5cf801dcd8f

(2246)

on April 24, 2011
at 11:38 PM

Well, to add a lot of people still do use the GOMAD diet. Also the first place I heard it put with a rapid cell division was at a seminar with the whole 9 gang. www.whole9life.com

C1c86f42410cd4788bd9c5cf801dcd8f

(2246)

on April 24, 2011
at 11:36 PM

Well, to add a lot of people still do use the GOMAD diet.

C1c86f42410cd4788bd9c5cf801dcd8f

(2246)

on April 24, 2011
at 11:31 PM

Do some reading on a diet called GOMAD, Gallon of milk a day. It is what power lifters and body builders used before steroids hit the market. As for a direct link, I do not have one I can give you.

95eda9fa0cec952b482e869c34a566b6

on April 24, 2011
at 10:40 PM

The scientific understanding of casomorphins is at best incomplete. Some may be able to break them down into inactive dipeptides. The breakdown of casein may not cause an opiod effect in everyone. I've never felt a dairy high, even after quitting it and reintroducing it.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25477)

on April 24, 2011
at 10:09 PM

I say eat it.......It will keep me busy down the road.

1e58ba5c171a122541d8b4873f604327

(229)

on April 24, 2011
at 10:09 PM

Interesting.... do you have any links? I'd like to read more about how it increases cell division.

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7314)

on April 24, 2011
at 10:04 PM

Conventional dairy doesn't really have more O6, it just has less O3. The "cell division thing" is probably increased IGF-1. Fortunately, CLA from grassfed dairy will inhibit this.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 24, 2011
at 10:03 PM

I personally believe that most neurological disorders such as autism, ADD, ADHD, bipolar, rage disorder ect. are just "labels" created to conveniently describe "general symptoms" or perceived deficits of the brain that are caused by industrial toxins such as MSG, aspartame, fluoride, vaccines, neolithic foods(especially GMO versions of corn, soy and canola oil).

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 24, 2011
at 10:01 PM

I personally believe that most neurological disorders such as autism, ADD, ADHD, bipolar, rage disorder ect. are just "labels" created to conveniently describe symptoms or perceived deficits that industrial toxins, vaccines, neolithic foods( especially GMO soy and canola oils) cause.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 24, 2011
at 09:50 PM

Not everyone gets a dairy high, but many do. For some it's mild. It's interesting to note that people with certain 'neurological disorders'(like autism spectrum and "ADD") have an affinity for gluten and casomorphine. Both contain opiate-like chemicals that can affect the brain more so in those people due to their gut allowing some of these morphine like chemicals to pass through the blood brain barrier. Some people describe milk as very calming and relaxing, nothing like a glass of milk! But at the same time it aggravates the very symptoms that these "neurological disorders" cause.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 24, 2011
at 09:48 PM

Google "casomorphines" if you want to know more about those, I will keep running out of characters to explain anything lol on paleohacks.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 24, 2011
at 09:44 PM

Not everyone gets a dairy high, but many do. For some it's mild. It's interesting to note that people with certain 'neurological disorders'(like autism spectrum and "ADD") have an affinity for gluten and casomorphine. Both contain opiate-like chemicals that can affect the brain more so in those people due to their gut allowing some of these morphine like chemicals to pass through the blood brain barrier. Some people describe milk as very calming and relaxing, nothing like a glass of milk! But at the same time it aggravates the symptoms of these very same neurological disorders.

535633b57c4a4940d1e913e7a12ee791

(1013)

on April 24, 2011
at 09:38 PM

the dairy "high"?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 24, 2011
at 09:25 PM

The "feeling great" could be you enjoying the dairy "high". It is similar to an opiate type of relaxation/euphoria. Maybe mild or moderate depending on how you react to casomorphines. Here's what I recommend, now that you've added dairy in for 3 days. Stop for 2-3 days to see how you feel, if you feel bad then at least then you'll know for sure you want to avoid it. Feeling bad is a sign you didn't do well with it, usually because of the casein(casomorphines) or lactose. If you feel okay, then it's your choice if you want to consume cow's milk which is for calves.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 24, 2011
at 09:13 PM

It's possible "feeling great" is a sign of the opiate effect from milk. I too, "feel great" after reintroducing milk. It's not usually till hours and hours later or a day later that I notice symptoms. But the symptoms go away when I drink milk again, which begins the never ending cycle of dairy addiction = P That's how it is for me at least. Dairy has been linked to "leaky gut"(usually people with this get more "opiate effects" than people who don't have this issue with it., autoimmune disorders.

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15 Answers

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4
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 24, 2011
at 09:25 PM

The "feeling great" could be you enjoying the dairy "high". It is similar to an opiate type of relaxation/euphoria. Maybe mild or moderate depending on how your body reacts to casomorphines. Now that you've added dairy in for 3 days, I would recommend not eating any dairy for 2-3 days to see how you feel. If you feel bad(brain fog, mood changes, allergy-like mucus production), then at least then you'll know for sure you want to avoid it. Feeling bad is your body basically showing that it didn't agree with it. This is usually because of the casein(casomorphines) or lactose. If you feel okay, then it's your choice(possible risk?) if you want to consume cow's milk.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 24, 2011
at 10:01 PM

I personally believe that most neurological disorders such as autism, ADD, ADHD, bipolar, rage disorder ect. are just "labels" created to conveniently describe symptoms or perceived deficits that industrial toxins, vaccines, neolithic foods( especially GMO soy and canola oils) cause.

95eda9fa0cec952b482e869c34a566b6

on April 24, 2011
at 10:40 PM

The scientific understanding of casomorphins is at best incomplete. Some may be able to break them down into inactive dipeptides. The breakdown of casein may not cause an opiod effect in everyone. I've never felt a dairy high, even after quitting it and reintroducing it.

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on April 25, 2011
at 01:41 AM

I get super high after consuming dairy, I'll look into casomorphins (never heard of this).

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 24, 2011
at 10:03 PM

I personally believe that most neurological disorders such as autism, ADD, ADHD, bipolar, rage disorder ect. are just "labels" created to conveniently describe "general symptoms" or perceived deficits of the brain that are caused by industrial toxins such as MSG, aspartame, fluoride, vaccines, neolithic foods(especially GMO versions of corn, soy and canola oil).

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 24, 2011
at 09:50 PM

Not everyone gets a dairy high, but many do. For some it's mild. It's interesting to note that people with certain 'neurological disorders'(like autism spectrum and "ADD") have an affinity for gluten and casomorphine. Both contain opiate-like chemicals that can affect the brain more so in those people due to their gut allowing some of these morphine like chemicals to pass through the blood brain barrier. Some people describe milk as very calming and relaxing, nothing like a glass of milk! But at the same time it aggravates the very symptoms that these "neurological disorders" cause.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 24, 2011
at 09:48 PM

Google "casomorphines" if you want to know more about those, I will keep running out of characters to explain anything lol on paleohacks.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 24, 2011
at 09:44 PM

Not everyone gets a dairy high, but many do. For some it's mild. It's interesting to note that people with certain 'neurological disorders'(like autism spectrum and "ADD") have an affinity for gluten and casomorphine. Both contain opiate-like chemicals that can affect the brain more so in those people due to their gut allowing some of these morphine like chemicals to pass through the blood brain barrier. Some people describe milk as very calming and relaxing, nothing like a glass of milk! But at the same time it aggravates the symptoms of these very same neurological disorders.

535633b57c4a4940d1e913e7a12ee791

(1013)

on April 24, 2011
at 09:38 PM

the dairy "high"?

7
Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7314)

on April 24, 2011
at 09:45 PM

I would just make sure your dairy is grassfed. It has quite a few more nutrients and is almost a different food. CLA, for example, is chemoprotective and inhibits IGF-1, but you won't find it in conventional dairy. Nutritionism has its flaws though, so I won't go listing all the nutritional differences. I think grassfed dairy is a much superior product and can be a part of a healthy diet if so desired. CAFO dairy should probably be limited, particularly if you're looking for optimal health.

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on April 25, 2011
at 01:39 AM

Well that sucks, it's very difficult for to source grassfed dairy, and I have been relying on the conventional Daisy brand.

5
Bb1ba0d71083ceaecd3a3b405a977454

on April 24, 2011
at 09:35 PM

I dropped all dairy but cream and butter January 2011 (I have MS) and haven't had any for over 30 days. I feel great, and won't be going back on the moo. I have a different reason than many in that I have a problem that may be made worse with dairy, so I have slowly eliminated it while moving from Primal to Paleo in my diet. I now use coconut oil/milk instead of dairy, and use way more bacon grease too.

I was just remarking to my wife that I did get a bit phlegm-y after having Greek yogurt or cream, so maybe that was a sign to quit.

Again, I think each person is a special case, so what works for me may not work for you.

7e746be2f0e550a8cd7df881322ae705

(18701)

on April 25, 2011
at 03:31 PM

+1 for "back on the moo".

4
0fb8b3d6dcfb279b0f7e050d2d22510f

(4645)

on April 24, 2011
at 10:09 PM

Not from me. Raw milk cheeses work well in my diet. I would not drink modern milk, the ultra pastur stuff, but if you can her raw milk or good milk from Natural by Nature, use it. Just don't drink glass after glass. And Butter is a GREAT food.

3
Fe29f6658ce67c1ecc4a22e960be7498

(2997)

on October 31, 2011
at 05:04 PM

I've been adding lots of milk lately. Feeling good with it, and no weight gain. Also eat lots of cheese and sometimes yogurt and kefir. Cream is great.

Yum yum yum!

It's a nice safe way to get sat fats, protein with without too much sugar. The insulinogenic thing is negligeable (hand-wringing hysteria aside).

3
Eb5ad630bb366c5f7dcf656810aa3f95

(506)

on October 31, 2011
at 01:56 PM

The arguments against dairy have always seemed a lot weaker than the arguments against grains/refined carbs, and tend to centre around the "quite a few people have a borderline intolerance" point.

My wife is going to try without dairy for a while as she suffers from eczema. She was also clearly sensitive to wheat as her IBS symptoms cleared up overnight when stopped eating grains. My gut is apparently more robust and I never got those symptoms with wheat, and have no problems eating dairy. For the joy I get out of full fat yoghurt, occasional bits of cheese and a splash of milk in my tea and coffee, cutting out dairy just isn't worth it for me.

As Dr. Briffa says, "life gets in the way sometimes". Obsessing over details seems far more un-paleo than the minor differences/preferences between primal eaters. One of the best things about paleo eating for me is really enjoying food again without worrying/feeling guilty etc.

B6114a1980b1481fb18206064f3f4a4f

(3924)

on October 31, 2011
at 02:29 PM

I agree that obsessing over details instead of listening to your body seems to miss the point of Paleo eating. I eat Paleo because it frees me to feel my best, not because it chains me to some hard and fast rules that may or may not be right for my body.

3
Db4ad76f6f307a6f577e175710049172

on April 24, 2011
at 09:56 PM

I would think that the only really convincing argument against eating dairy is if you cannot tolerate it, due to either the lactose, or casein. One of the main things with eating dairy, is that the dairy should come from pastured cows, with raw pastured dairy being ideal. Otherwise, you???ll be taking in a lot of the bad stuff (omega-6???s, low nutrient density) associated with conventional farming. One issue I had with dairy is that it was too easy to eat too much lactose, which gets broken down into glucose and galactose, which can cause insulin spikes and an elevated blood glucose level. This caused me problems in weight gain/loss (gained fat, couldn???t lose the fat I had), but it would also cause blood sugar crashes due to blood sugar spiking.

I enjoy my fair share of butter, although I get organic pastured butter, which has all the good fat from grass-fed dairy. I tend to tolerate dairy quite well, although I???ve decided that I???ll only include raw, pastured dairy in my diet, so until I find a good dairy source, all I eat is pastured organic butter.

I???d suggest only eating pastured raw dairy, with eating conventional dairy in little to no amounts, since it???s just not that good.

And where is everyone getting the whole ???dairy causes increased cell division??? thing?

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7314)

on April 24, 2011
at 10:04 PM

Conventional dairy doesn't really have more O6, it just has less O3. The "cell division thing" is probably increased IGF-1. Fortunately, CLA from grassfed dairy will inhibit this.

3
3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

on April 24, 2011
at 09:35 PM

Dairy could be a problem if you have an autoimmune condition. I have Sjogren's and my hands used to go numb overnight. After I stopped eating dairy (I was only eating sour cream and Greek yogurt and heavy cream), my hands don't go numb anymore. I brought sour cream back for a few days, and sure enough, it returned.

Your mileage may vary if you don't have an autoimmune issue. I believe heavy cream and butter and Greek yougurt and sour cream are okay for most people. But I would avoid pasteurized milk, definitely, and for sure any kind of skim milk.

50637dfd7dc7a7e811d82283f4f5fd10

(5838)

on May 09, 2011
at 06:19 PM

Namby.. have you any other info on your Sjogren's? Anything that has helped, or makes it worse? I've been getting tested for it and I have a lot of the syptoms.

363d0a0277a8b61ada3a24ab3ad85d5a

(4642)

on October 31, 2011
at 05:34 PM

I have also been tested with a lot positive for it, and am now taking low dose naltrexone and have felt relief from the small symptoms I was having (dry eyes and mouth when I woke up in the mornings only). I would love to hear any dietary commentary on it also.

3
C1c86f42410cd4788bd9c5cf801dcd8f

(2246)

on April 24, 2011
at 09:19 PM

Dairy is good for making small cows grow into big cows.

It does a very similar thing for humans, by increasing the rate of growth that cells divide. Which is fine as long as all cells being divided are healthy, if a not so healthy cell (cancer/etc) gets divided rapidly it can be a bad thing.

So dairy doesn't cause cancer but it can make it grow faster.

Without dairy and your cells divide at a normal pace, your body normally stops that bad cells from dividing.

Now with that being said if you consume a low amount of dairy, you have the body composition you want then should you really take dairy out? Maybe... I do not operate well on dairy doesn't work with me, if i could drink it there is a good chance I still would.

C1c86f42410cd4788bd9c5cf801dcd8f

(2246)

on April 24, 2011
at 11:38 PM

Well, to add a lot of people still do use the GOMAD diet. Also the first place I heard it put with a rapid cell division was at a seminar with the whole 9 gang. www.whole9life.com

C1c86f42410cd4788bd9c5cf801dcd8f

(2246)

on April 24, 2011
at 11:36 PM

Well, to add a lot of people still do use the GOMAD diet.

1e58ba5c171a122541d8b4873f604327

(229)

on April 24, 2011
at 10:09 PM

Interesting.... do you have any links? I'd like to read more about how it increases cell division.

C1c86f42410cd4788bd9c5cf801dcd8f

(2246)

on April 24, 2011
at 11:31 PM

Do some reading on a diet called GOMAD, Gallon of milk a day. It is what power lifters and body builders used before steroids hit the market. As for a direct link, I do not have one I can give you.

Db4ad76f6f307a6f577e175710049172

(2297)

on April 25, 2011
at 01:57 AM

The main thing with the GOMAD diet, is drinking a gallon of milk a day. Primarily this just supplies the body with everything it needs to grow, protein, fat, and carbs. GOMAD is really ideal for people who have trouble eating enough calories to gain weight, be it muscle or fat. I first came across it at Stronglifts, where Mehdi was recommending it for people who were having trouble gaining muscle.

2
B6114a1980b1481fb18206064f3f4a4f

(3924)

on October 31, 2011
at 03:06 AM

I say listen to your body. Try different combinations of no dairy, only butter and cream, full dairy, raw cheese etc. for a few weeks each and keep a log of how you feel, your energy levels, your stamina etc. If you notice no difference in your health, then maybe there isn't any reason to deprive yourself of a little dairy as an occasional treat. I believe moderation is definitely in order, but I love butter and I do fine with a little dairy. I buy most of my meat, eggs and dairy directly from local producers. If you want to find grassfed dairy (cow or goat) or raw milk and cheese products, try visiting your local farmers' market or extension office and ask if they know anyone who produces grassfed dairy products. You might also look into the dairy farmers' association in your state and see if you can find any grassfed or raw dairy producers. There's a guy in my town who used to bring raw milk fresh to your doorstep two days a week until three years ago when a tornado destroyed his farm. MAN, I miss that!!!

7fc82eebafd44badc73c520f44660150

(3275)

on January 19, 2014
at 03:10 PM

You might not notice a difference from having a little bit of arsenic, but it doesn't mean it's good for you! (Pardon my hysterical over-the-top analogy :-)

2
3c997ffae3db9464325b96979346d9e9

on April 24, 2011
at 10:29 PM

Raw dairy is best. Butter is one of the most nutrient packed foods there is containing all the hard to get fat soluble vitamins , minerals, conjugated linoleic acid (protects against breast cancer), arachadonic acid, omega 3 fatty acids in grass fed butter (and omega 6 in a good ratio to the 3s). Certainly you get a lot of these nutrients from animal fats too but why eliminate another good source considering all the less nutritious foods out there including vegetables. No homogenized or ultrapasturized dairy...try to get raw, grass-fed with the enzymes available. I drink around a quart and a half of cream a week and love every drop.

1
Medium avatar

on April 24, 2011
at 09:19 PM

I definitely eat my fair share of pastured butter, ghee, raw cheese, wish I could get my hands on some raw milk, and I LOVE heavy cream.

Just be careful and make sure you buy cream WITHOUT carageenan. It's in the Organic Pastures brand and whole lot of other ones. I always make sure my cream only has cream in it. Yum!

As far as cell division goes...I'm a pretty robust healthy guy and I lift heavy weights (just started a Stronglifts 5x5 regimen, and I love it). I find that when I include dairy in my recovery process (whey, cream, whole milk, etc) I recover much much faster and build more muscle.

03f5a69fde4012b827ebdb6d93b71e7a

(2007)

on April 25, 2011
at 04:53 PM

Are you thinking of Organic Valley? Organic Pastures sells only *raw* dairy, I don't think that has carageenan :)

Medium avatar

(5639)

on April 25, 2011
at 07:30 PM

Ooops, yeah, Organic Valley is what I meant.

0
8f4ff12a53a98f3b5814cfe242de0daa

(1075)

on April 25, 2011
at 05:01 AM

Assuming you buy into gluten being bad due to being difficult to digest:

Dairy is mostly casein.

Structure of casein is very similar to gluten (as an aside yeast is worse than both of those actually) so it is also relatively difficult to digest. This is why body builders take it to get a steady input of protein into their bodies, as the hard to digest also makes it slow. Many gluten elimination diets also eliminate casein for this reason (Not that there is anything to suggest gluten/casein free helps autism if you actually do an honest double blind trial).

But I've got nothing if you eat wheat too.

0
4471d4c220a53e1c6c74949e90376038

on April 25, 2011
at 01:47 AM

7fc82eebafd44badc73c520f44660150

(3275)

on January 19, 2014
at 03:12 PM

I wish you posted the full link and not a shortened one so I could get a sense if it was safe to click. Clicking a random link from a stranger scares me.

-3
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 25, 2011
at 02:29 AM

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