14

votes

Is it time that the Paleoblogosphere community start to use the power of the computer and network to generate real answers?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created April 20, 2011 at 5:37 PM

The objective of pulling culled data is not so much to cure diseases as it is to detect and predict disease susceptibilities before a disease starts or at very early stages of disease progression and initiate personalized interventions to prevent the progression of the disease before it becomes symptomatic or does damage. This is really why older paleo's, like DeVany and myself for that matter, can not generalize to the younger paleo's because what we have done early on in our life may have greatly effected what we maybe able to become longer term. Moreover, it is participatory in the sense that the collaborative participation of large numbers of health research institutions and care agencies is involved in doing the research and creating the infrastructure to make it sustainable and doable. This is already occuring in the pharma industry.

Use your imagination now for a minute, and think that we could multidimensionality structure and organize that information and data in flexible ways into databases that that reflects our evolving best scientific models of health and disease states. This eliminates the bias we have now of the top funded scientists in all fields driving the bus. If one or more are on the wrong track like still researching the lipid hypothesis or figuring out why the CETP drugs kill people but still lower their LDL to ridiculous levels we could stop wasteful research quickly. For example how a paleo lifestyle effects our biology, metabolism and how it triggers epigenetic events in our DNA and does it actually improve us and by what measures does it happen? Right now we are just guessing at what an ancestoral diet can really do long term? Is it not time to see what what a diet high in omega three's low in sixes low in fructose and devoid of grains actually does? And what it does to those with normal gut flora and those without it? Those with hormone optimization and those with a dysordered neurohumeral response? It is important that the data structuring and organization be flexible and allow constant modification as our state of knowledge expands.

Simultaneous with this, suppose we develop increasingly sophisticated computer models of healthy body states, aging and disease states - models that relate the mountains of general and individual information to human health outcomes, aging and specific diseases. Identification of disease biomarkers becomes just part of the modeling effort that is required. Antiaging medicine is currently doing this as we speak for longevity but no one is tying it to diet, nutrition, and currently tracked health metrics to make any definite claims.

The purpose here obviously would allow us to make definite statements about certain behaviors and beliefs that we see hacked on here all the time. Some of the petty disagreements are avoided because it would allows us to add data in and see what that data really means when it is add to a set knowledge base of known facts. The ultimate Hack site for science........What say you?

A4d49e0dbea9544eb2f86624e2adc7fd

(172)

on October 06, 2011
at 08:27 PM

Although this is inspiring using the PICO-TS format, unless this is in a database (which I certainly have no idea), it not very useful. Being able to search and manipulate it using statistics makes it more able to wack away main stream medicine because we are playing using the same framework. It increases the power of the data/study and in the end the validity of the Paleo lifestyle as an alternative to SAD and conventional diabetes/CVD/Mental health/metabolic syndrome treatments. At least we are all thinking!!

A4d49e0dbea9544eb2f86624e2adc7fd

(172)

on October 06, 2011
at 08:21 PM

Can I help? I mean that seriously. I am in school, pursuing my MPH among other things. As a young provider I keep smacking my head against walls and doors where people don't want to hear what I have/we have to say because what we discuss here is so discrepant to what the mainstream "experts" espouse. I know people, I'm in a place that might want to listen, with a good proposal... But does anyone else want to take that risk? I'm willing, are you?

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 20, 2011
at 11:13 PM

Yes, and you make a good point.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 20, 2011
at 10:27 PM

i was just answering the question you raised which I felt was quite legit.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 20, 2011
at 09:30 PM

Ok, points taken.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 20, 2011
at 06:54 PM

I think there is a lot out there on paleolifestyling that we should begin to cull paleo data. Eventually the bigger framework is going to be done to pour the data into. I think those areas who keep their heads in the sand will be extinct because dollars wont flow to it from the common good fund. A thought experiment that I think is already being done in many other fields and disciplines.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 20, 2011
at 06:52 PM

Thomas here is a small example of a group of healthcare businesses in a state that has begun to cull data for all their good. This example is the PACeR (www.pacerhealth.org/) in New York State that combines hospitals, medical centers, healthcare networks, medical schools, pharma companies and healthcare associations, with a purpose being to significantly accelerate the clinical trials process to faster develop more effective treatments of diseases they see commonly. This can be drugs or medical/surgical proceedures or even behavior modification.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 20, 2011
at 06:33 PM

Moreover, I dont have all the answers. The purpose is to open it up to everyone to guide it. That is the point and it is also why I think it will be far more intellectually pure than our current system. If you think the current allocation of resources for grants and research is beyond reproach you are very sadly mistaken. That is why we have so much garbage in journals and no clear consensus in anything. Nutrition and health journals data are as clear as mud.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 20, 2011
at 06:30 PM

There is no way to guarrantee data.....we cant do it now even in journal form or in academic research so does it really matter if your power overwhelms even the best RCT we have seen? My idea is to overwhelm the N and it will infact drain out the manufactured data we currently live with and why so many believe the rubbish that Dr Oz and your everyday PCP believe.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 20, 2011
at 06:28 PM

i am talking about collecting it anyway we can get. The net is the most effiecient for sure. Remember why the net was created to begin with. To link a few colleges together to share research data. Well I think we need that in healthcare. I envision a paleo hub that would tie into a bigger database that could be culled. The key is making it open source and not propietary at all. I think Thomas Seay data of N1 is as important as that as Kaiser Permanente in this model. It will give us incredible scalability and power to draw inferences and make definite statements on policy and health

Medium avatar

(5136)

on April 20, 2011
at 06:00 PM

I'd be a paleo guinea pig if it meant some free blood work or any higher level of health care than what I have now (none). Actually, I'd do it anyways but...

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 20, 2011
at 05:40 PM

I see a doctoral thesis here! Love the idea. Total upvote.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 20, 2011
at 05:39 PM

I think Ned Kock was working on something like this already

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2 Answers

1
21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on May 04, 2011
at 06:32 PM

See here for a small step towards collecting that type of information:

http://paleohacks.com/questions/13421/paleo-results-database-list-your-experience-here#axzz1LPIEMpck

A4d49e0dbea9544eb2f86624e2adc7fd

(172)

on October 06, 2011
at 08:27 PM

Although this is inspiring using the PICO-TS format, unless this is in a database (which I certainly have no idea), it not very useful. Being able to search and manipulate it using statistics makes it more able to wack away main stream medicine because we are playing using the same framework. It increases the power of the data/study and in the end the validity of the Paleo lifestyle as an alternative to SAD and conventional diabetes/CVD/Mental health/metabolic syndrome treatments. At least we are all thinking!!

1
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 20, 2011
at 05:57 PM

Ok, let me ask a couple of questions here. Maybe I don't understand. Are you talking about collecting data over the Internet? How are you going to guarantee the integrity of your data? Already studies on nutrition have a problem, I think, with verification: people lie on them. Completely anonymous Internet data would probably be exacerbated in this direction, I think. Can that be adjusted for? Quite likely, I am misunderstanding how you intend to collect the data. I love the idea, but I am a little skeptical when it comes to the implementation.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 20, 2011
at 06:28 PM

i am talking about collecting it anyway we can get. The net is the most effiecient for sure. Remember why the net was created to begin with. To link a few colleges together to share research data. Well I think we need that in healthcare. I envision a paleo hub that would tie into a bigger database that could be culled. The key is making it open source and not propietary at all. I think Thomas Seay data of N1 is as important as that as Kaiser Permanente in this model. It will give us incredible scalability and power to draw inferences and make definite statements on policy and health

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 20, 2011
at 10:27 PM

i was just answering the question you raised which I felt was quite legit.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 20, 2011
at 06:33 PM

Moreover, I dont have all the answers. The purpose is to open it up to everyone to guide it. That is the point and it is also why I think it will be far more intellectually pure than our current system. If you think the current allocation of resources for grants and research is beyond reproach you are very sadly mistaken. That is why we have so much garbage in journals and no clear consensus in anything. Nutrition and health journals data are as clear as mud.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 20, 2011
at 06:30 PM

There is no way to guarrantee data.....we cant do it now even in journal form or in academic research so does it really matter if your power overwhelms even the best RCT we have seen? My idea is to overwhelm the N and it will infact drain out the manufactured data we currently live with and why so many believe the rubbish that Dr Oz and your everyday PCP believe.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25482)

on April 20, 2011
at 06:52 PM

Thomas here is a small example of a group of healthcare businesses in a state that has begun to cull data for all their good. This example is the PACeR (www.pacerhealth.org/) in New York State that combines hospitals, medical centers, healthcare networks, medical schools, pharma companies and healthcare associations, with a purpose being to significantly accelerate the clinical trials process to faster develop more effective treatments of diseases they see commonly. This can be drugs or medical/surgical proceedures or even behavior modification.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 20, 2011
at 09:30 PM

Ok, points taken.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 20, 2011
at 11:13 PM

Yes, and you make a good point.

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