2

votes

Cold Adaptation....for the tropics?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created April 02, 2012 at 8:21 PM

Kruse and many others around the web talk about cold-exposure being excellent for health and maybe it is. The questions I have is do we have any information about the effects of this sort of forced adaptation in people who live in tropical and sub-tropical climates? Would there be any possible benefit? If anything wouldn't someone living in Hawaii, or Phoenix, AZ be better off slowly turning down the AC and upping their heat exposure in order to push themselves to adapt to the climate they live in?

1bbcd2122d9c75b07440f22ef57d6448

(2934)

on April 04, 2012
at 10:22 PM

To my understanding, most adults have small amounts of brown fat still, but it's inactive most of the time. It takes full-body icing to alert the nervous system and activate the brown fat.

7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on April 03, 2012
at 09:04 PM

At this point, anyway, I am not following Kruse's ketogenic recommendations. I've had some low blood pressure issues, tied mainly, I think to my lenten tendency to fast, so I am making it a point to eat a lot more calories. I could have dropped into ketosis a few times over the last few weeks, but I wasn't being particularly serious about it. As my question about environments may imply, I'm thinking it could be spring or summer in many places and still cold enough at night to trigger such a pathway.

7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on April 03, 2012
at 08:51 PM

50 on the skin, not the air. Remember, the body is fighting to keep a constant temp. This is a ~45 degree drop from normal skin temp. The ice makes it possible to mimic the effects without having to sleep outside in the mountains all night. The same thing with the cold baths. Kruse thinks the pathway is switched on at this temp.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 03, 2012
at 08:19 PM

The evidence is that the Siberian people have higher metabolisms than people in the tropics. The Hadza, who live in the hot desert, are famous for being able to slow their metabolism during the day. That's very important because humans lose water so badly in the heat.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 03, 2012
at 08:06 PM

Arizona in the mountains gets below 50 for a lot of the year. However if the adaptation occurs at 50F than going outside in a a T-shirt in spring and fall and in just a long-sleeve shirt in winter is all it would take. I don't see what good ice would do.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 03, 2012
at 08:03 PM

What narrative would explain energy restriction (Low-carb) and increased energy output (to stay warm) to cause your body to do anything but slow down and be more frugal? The logic of survival would dictate that the harsher the climate the more "worried" about starvation your body would be.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 03, 2012
at 07:46 PM

As I said, there are no studies showing NP-Y is downregulated in cold for humans or any other animals. Only studies in animals showing up-regulation. So I don't think that's likely to be in play with your weight lose. It's also very hard to quantify weight loss in a way that would prove you are really getting spot reduction.

7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on April 03, 2012
at 07:33 PM

Says me. I told you I like the experiments I can do myself. I dropped 5lbs and noticed the spot reduction myself. I haven't dropped low enough to consider the weight-loss truly meaningful, but it is all in the right direction. This is why I urged caution with regard to the application of ice-packs. You can get stupid with this stuff once you see what it can do. But NP-Y may be your bullet, as long as the studies fit the context. CT pre-existed Kruse- the pathway is the only thing he's bringing to the party. I need a bio-chem degree.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 03, 2012
at 06:56 PM

Haha, cold stress increases NP-Y in every experiment I can find. That's why it's so mystifying that Dr. Kruse insists that NP-Y is downregulated in cold...http://perfecthealthdiet.com/?p=5724 "if you are doing what Kruse says to do you will notice wieght loss- including the sort of spot reduction that gets people excited" Says who? As far as the people reporting spot-reducing weight loss, it's anecdotes. We don't know if they are actually reducing bloating or losing water weight or what.

7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on April 03, 2012
at 06:35 PM

Well, 'it' works very well in that if you are doing what Kruse says to do you will notice wieght loss- including the sort of spot reduction that gets people excited. This is why expounding on ev-theory isn't going to work. The pathway needs to be disproven or modified. We've already got a few real world examples to suggest his fears of turning it off with heat (or paleo levels of carbs) aren't warranted. Know anybody that can track NP-Y?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 03, 2012
at 05:06 PM

As I said, it doesn't seem to work very well. He says he's been numb for months in his torso area, after all. It's very crude stuff, which is a shame since so many cultures have very sophisticated thermal traditions. Based on his writings on the Sherpas and the Inuit, he doesn't seem very keen on actually learning from other cultures though.

7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on April 03, 2012
at 05:00 PM

You've got it backwards. He found something that seems to work, then he built an evolutionary narrative to fit what he thinks. The pertinent thing is whether or not that pathway exists, not whether or not his grand sweeping narratives are true. The grand sweeping narratives are never true.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on April 03, 2012
at 04:59 PM

Agreed. We just went from 75 & sunny to 34 (& snow!) in one day here in Santa Fe. Any desert environment will have a high contrast between day & night temps as well.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 03, 2012
at 04:57 PM

In southern NV, there are about 2 months each summer when the "lows" are at or above 100F, so no. There are only 2 months per year when the overnight temps would reliably be 50F or less.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 03, 2012
at 04:19 PM

Most of the brown fat in adults (if there is any at all) is located in your upper back, between the "wings". I ice that area quite often, because of chronic back soreness. It hasn't made me slimmer, but I assume that I have no brown fat left. (Just a whole lot of the white stuff)

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 02, 2012
at 11:35 PM

I live in the southern tip of Nevada--annual summer peak highs are 120+F--and I do in fact "adapt." When I lived in Wisconsin, I defined room temperature as 70F but now it's 80F. In July and August, even 80 feels "cool" and my thermostat winds up closer to 85 without feeling "hot." After sundown I walk my dogs in 110-115 and it just feels "warm." I can attest it's subjective!

  • 77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

    asked by

    (78467)
  • Views
    1.8K
  • Last Activity
    1406D AGO
Frontpage book

Get FREE instant access to our Paleo For Beginners Guide & 15 FREE Recipes!

3 Answers

6
9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 03, 2012
at 04:42 PM

Because Dr. Kruse is basing his recommendations on a seriously flawed evolutionary narrative, thinking that ice baths are awakening some ancient polar mammal pathway (sorry, mammals did not evolve in polar conditions and primates are even more tropical), rather than drawing on extensive literature on thermal hacking as hormesis/vascular conditioning, he is missing a key part of it, which is heat. Many of the cultures he talks about have ice baths or live in extreme cold, but they also engage in hot vaporing/sweat lodges/hot baths. The only other northern living primate, the Japanese macaque, does this as well. It's the contrast between cold and hot that will condition you the best and prevent the potentially-damaging numbness that Dr. Kruse and his followers report.

The more Southern Native Americans also engaged in sweat lodges (Temazcal) and then afterwards would bath in cold (but not freezing) cave/forest pools. I would warn that several people actually have died from sweat lodges in the past few years, so they are not something to do casually. Sauna is much less extreme. I have done Ojibwe sweatlodges with really skilled practitioners and they are a very good experience, but I've also done hot springs in Iceland, Sauna/ice baths in Sweden, Sauna/polar baths in Austria, and done Banya and Korean saunas in the US with similar benefits.

Perhaps it's not just hormesis though and has some evolutionary basis. Living out on the savanna, you would be exposed to some rapid rises and dips in temperature, though certainly not to icy levels! It's probably a very good idea to sleep in a colder room.

7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on April 03, 2012
at 06:35 PM

Well, 'it' works very well in that if you are doing what Kruse says to do you will notice wieght loss- including the sort of spot reduction that gets people excited. This is why expounding on ev-theory isn't going to work. The pathway needs to be disproven or modified. We've already got a few real world examples to suggest his fears of turning it off with heat (or paleo levels of carbs) aren't warranted. Know anybody that can track NP-Y?

7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on April 03, 2012
at 07:33 PM

Says me. I told you I like the experiments I can do myself. I dropped 5lbs and noticed the spot reduction myself. I haven't dropped low enough to consider the weight-loss truly meaningful, but it is all in the right direction. This is why I urged caution with regard to the application of ice-packs. You can get stupid with this stuff once you see what it can do. But NP-Y may be your bullet, as long as the studies fit the context. CT pre-existed Kruse- the pathway is the only thing he's bringing to the party. I need a bio-chem degree.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 03, 2012
at 05:06 PM

As I said, it doesn't seem to work very well. He says he's been numb for months in his torso area, after all. It's very crude stuff, which is a shame since so many cultures have very sophisticated thermal traditions. Based on his writings on the Sherpas and the Inuit, he doesn't seem very keen on actually learning from other cultures though.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on April 03, 2012
at 04:59 PM

Agreed. We just went from 75 & sunny to 34 (& snow!) in one day here in Santa Fe. Any desert environment will have a high contrast between day & night temps as well.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 03, 2012
at 08:03 PM

What narrative would explain energy restriction (Low-carb) and increased energy output (to stay warm) to cause your body to do anything but slow down and be more frugal? The logic of survival would dictate that the harsher the climate the more "worried" about starvation your body would be.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 03, 2012
at 08:19 PM

The evidence is that the Siberian people have higher metabolisms than people in the tropics. The Hadza, who live in the hot desert, are famous for being able to slow their metabolism during the day. That's very important because humans lose water so badly in the heat.

7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on April 03, 2012
at 09:04 PM

At this point, anyway, I am not following Kruse's ketogenic recommendations. I've had some low blood pressure issues, tied mainly, I think to my lenten tendency to fast, so I am making it a point to eat a lot more calories. I could have dropped into ketosis a few times over the last few weeks, but I wasn't being particularly serious about it. As my question about environments may imply, I'm thinking it could be spring or summer in many places and still cold enough at night to trigger such a pathway.

7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on April 03, 2012
at 05:00 PM

You've got it backwards. He found something that seems to work, then he built an evolutionary narrative to fit what he thinks. The pertinent thing is whether or not that pathway exists, not whether or not his grand sweeping narratives are true. The grand sweeping narratives are never true.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 03, 2012
at 07:46 PM

As I said, there are no studies showing NP-Y is downregulated in cold for humans or any other animals. Only studies in animals showing up-regulation. So I don't think that's likely to be in play with your weight lose. It's also very hard to quantify weight loss in a way that would prove you are really getting spot reduction.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on April 03, 2012
at 06:56 PM

Haha, cold stress increases NP-Y in every experiment I can find. That's why it's so mystifying that Dr. Kruse insists that NP-Y is downregulated in cold...http://perfecthealthdiet.com/?p=5724 "if you are doing what Kruse says to do you will notice wieght loss- including the sort of spot reduction that gets people excited" Says who? As far as the people reporting spot-reducing weight loss, it's anecdotes. We don't know if they are actually reducing bloating or losing water weight or what.

2
1bbcd2122d9c75b07440f22ef57d6448

(2934)

on April 02, 2012
at 11:22 PM

I've read (and heard confirmed recently) that cold-exposure (ice baths, freeze rooms) can affect levels or activity of "brown fat," which burns calories at a rapid rate. Brown fat is found in babies, where it is used to control body temperature in the absence of the ability to shiver. It is largely absent in adults, but still can be coaxed into action.

I don't know if this is why Kruse suggests cold-exposure, and hormesis may also be a factor, but I know others recommend it for brown fat mobilization.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 03, 2012
at 04:19 PM

Most of the brown fat in adults (if there is any at all) is located in your upper back, between the "wings". I ice that area quite often, because of chronic back soreness. It hasn't made me slimmer, but I assume that I have no brown fat left. (Just a whole lot of the white stuff)

1bbcd2122d9c75b07440f22ef57d6448

(2934)

on April 04, 2012
at 10:22 PM

To my understanding, most adults have small amounts of brown fat still, but it's inactive most of the time. It takes full-body icing to alert the nervous system and activate the brown fat.

0
7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on April 03, 2012
at 04:16 PM

I am not completely sure about this, but deserts can get pretty cold at night. So any desert dwellers out there? Could you conceivably get your skin temp down to 50 degrees most nights just by being outside with no cloud cover to keep heat? Such an environment may mean it is conceivable Kruse's pathway may have been turned on most nights (assuming anyone lived there) rather than seasonally.

Here is what I am getting at- if what Kruse thinks is true, and this pathway gets turned on when your skin temp is 50 degrees, well aren't there enough places on this earth where the temp falls below that during the night to justify thinking this would happen most of the time and not just during a hibernation period? Sure, humans killed it as fast as they could find fire and make clothes, but 50 degrees isn't that cold.

Anyway, it seems to work well enough to keep experimenting with it. Beware getting overzealous with ice packs. You can wear two t-shirts between you and an ice-pack and still get the skin temp below fifty.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on April 03, 2012
at 08:06 PM

Arizona in the mountains gets below 50 for a lot of the year. However if the adaptation occurs at 50F than going outside in a a T-shirt in spring and fall and in just a long-sleeve shirt in winter is all it would take. I don't see what good ice would do.

7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on April 03, 2012
at 08:51 PM

50 on the skin, not the air. Remember, the body is fighting to keep a constant temp. This is a ~45 degree drop from normal skin temp. The ice makes it possible to mimic the effects without having to sleep outside in the mountains all night. The same thing with the cold baths. Kruse thinks the pathway is switched on at this temp.

96bf58d8c6bd492dc5b8ae46203fe247

(37227)

on April 03, 2012
at 04:57 PM

In southern NV, there are about 2 months each summer when the "lows" are at or above 100F, so no. There are only 2 months per year when the overnight temps would reliably be 50F or less.

Answer Question


Get FREE instant access to our
Paleo For Beginners Guide & 15 FREE Recipes!