18

votes

Medium Chain Fatty Acids Appear to Raise VLDL/Triglycerides

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created September 20, 2011 at 4:55 AM

In attempting to figure out how Jack's lipids went awry, I started to focus on the coconut oil that he eats. Normally this wouldn't stand out to me, but consuming it alongside a diet that has 100-150g of carbs per day is somewhat unusual in the paleo world, and what we're looking for are ways in which his diet is veering away from what most do, since most have steadily declining VLDL/TGs/apoB100 that plateaus at a low level.

In this study they managed to triple serum TGs in 6 days with MCT overfeeding. LCT did not produce this effect. They hypothesized that the thermic effect that we all know and love about coconut oil was actually due to the energetically costly process of fatty acid elongation and that a substantial amount of the MCTs were actually being elongated into C16 (palmitic acid) which is our body's go-to fatty acid during de novo lipogenesis. Those palmitic acids would then be esterified into triglycerides and secreted in VLDL.

I'm not sure if this is some part of the reason why the Kitavans have higher TGs than the Swedish or if that's entirely due to their high carbohydrate intake. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2796.1994.tb00804.x/abstract

Now, for someone doing VLC, this all wouldn't really matter since insulin is kept low, lipolysis and lipid oxidation are not impeded, and appetite is greatly reduced. Muscle mitochondria would readily accept these fatty acids from VLDL and oxidize them for energy. With Jack however it would appear that he has a few pulses of triglyceride synthesis each day coupled with frequent snacking between meals and an elevated insulin level in general. This would greatly reduce TG clearance and you would see fasting TGs rise as they have. 150g of carbs, especially for someone who engages in frequent resistance training should not be enough to cause this, however the manner in which they are eaten could potentiate the TG-increasing effect of the coconut oil. 2 Tbsp a day of coconut oil doesn't sound like a lot but imagine how little of it would have to be circulating in your blood for it to register as elevated TGs.

Luckily, if this is what's happening, there are plenty of possible solutions. He can remove the coconut oil and leave everything as it is and odds are, given that he has a fairly active job, his TGs would gradually drop. What would be better would probably be, whether he replaces coconut oil or not, addressing the failing of his diet with regard to appetite that has caused him to be hungry in between meals and eating all day long. No proper diet should produce that effect. By having big slabs of meat constitute a greater portion of his meals and thus reducing his appetite and eating less frequently while doing more low-intensity exercise in the fasted state, he would rapidly clear the TGs (which also means a reduction in VLDL and apoB100) from his blood, which itself should raise HDL.

The reason why we don't just shrug when we see high VLDL/TGs in spite of what we consider to be a good diet is that they are far more prone to oxidation, consumption by macrophages and conducive to the formation of foam cells and later atherosclerotic plaques than LDL is. It is therefore wise to keep an eye on this parameter and make any necessary changes that would maintain a high VLDL turnover rate in order that there isn't time for oxidation. It seems prudent to also ensure that dietary antioxidants are of sufficient volume to further reduce the chance of VLDL oxidation. HDL would rise as a result because it would no longer be tasked with dealing with oxidized VLDL and would therefore be cleared from circulation at a lower rate.

1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on October 29, 2011
at 08:43 AM

Here is some info on BPA free oysters... http://www.crownprince.com/bpa-free-cans.htm

1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on October 29, 2011
at 08:13 AM

You guys are joking about the oil right?

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on October 27, 2011
at 10:48 AM

Here's the paper guys: http://www.ajcn.org/content/36/5/950.full.pdf It's been a while since I read it, so I'm not sure if it offers insight to this question, but it's a goodie IMO.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on October 27, 2011
at 10:46 AM

@Jack: Lots of lean folks with high circulating lipids. Indeed perhaps you are a bit lipodystrophic (is that a word?) and one of those folks with insufficient fat tissue to properly buffer dietary intake. @Travis, I don't think you'd need all 3 to elevate VLDL, I'm more thinking that high MCT intake behaves somewhat like alcohol on the lipid metabolism -- tamping LCFA burning -- but with Jack's metabolism the VLDL is left out in circulation for future use.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 26, 2011
at 09:12 PM

I can choose the no MCT route quite easily because I really only use CO for cooking and ghee can replace it. Though I think reducing LCFA intake (especially ghee/butter/cream/cheese would be a good idea too. I might just be eating too much fat in the context of a moderate carby diet too (white rice, potatoes, banana, fruits, dark choco, etc). I have also wondered if my high egg consumption might be making things worse for me. I am doubtful of this, but nevertheless, I have wondered.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on October 26, 2011
at 08:04 PM

I'm not recommending anything that is merely temporary in nature. If you chose the fasted walking route, you'd have to always do that. If you chose the no MCT route, you'd have to always do that etc. if you wanted to keep them low. Frankly, aside from the thermic effect, I don't quite understand the reason why a non-ketogenic diet would benefit from MCTs, especially since the *real* thermic effect (and satiety) comes from protein.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 26, 2011
at 07:40 PM

The more we dig into the "why/how" of it all, the more it seems that eating a significant amount of LCFA combined with a significant amount of MCTs combined with a significant amount of carbs (be it from starch and/or fructose) can be a recipe for high concentrations of sort of "stranded" lipids in the blood. Even if I were to be able to clear trigs/VLDL temporarily, I would bet that I would be right back in the same predicament inside of a couple months. It seems that I might benefit from eliminating (or at least drastically reducing) coconut oil, reducing LCFA intake, and reducing fructose.

61a27a8b7ec2264b1821923b271eaf54

(3175)

on October 26, 2011
at 06:40 PM

And, do a leptin reset rx!

Medium avatar

(39821)

on October 26, 2011
at 06:28 PM

That itself might not be that important if you on top of all of that, you also exercised at low intensity in the fasted state because you'd be oxidizing the VLDL-TGs each day. I bet 2 miles of walking before breakfast could correct it by itself. If you didn't want to do that, I think going down the high-liver-priority foods and removing them would make the biggest difference.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on October 26, 2011
at 06:26 PM

I totally agree with Evelyn here...VLDL is a liver product and it's production is up-regulated in most (fat) people just due to mass action, i.e. by there being so many FFAs in the blood stream that liver feels like it needs to package them up to keep things orderly. If someone is lean like Jack, then it's obviously the result of some other liver-oriented thing. If you drink alcohol, eat fructose *and* eat coconut oil in the presence of a high fat diet, then you definitely have a recipe for elevated TGs.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on October 26, 2011
at 06:22 PM

1) I think 85 is still pretty high, but you may have been active in a way that oxidized more VLDL-TGs in your muscle mitochondria and 2) many of these CO-eaters with sub-50 TGs are VLC/ZC and are thus oxidizing the VLDL in cardiac and skeletal muscle fairly rapidly, so it can't pool up and/or are females who tend to have lower TGs due presumably to estrogen.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 26, 2011
at 04:08 PM

If I was gaining, I would think that more activity would be the answer, like adding a bit of cardio to the mix (the only "cardio" exercise I get is walking around at a normal pace). But my lipid numbers clearly indicate a high amount circulating around in my blood and it may be why I don't feel quite right with my heart/blood pumping. Maybe my heart is like *"Dude, wtf? I don't have anywhere to put these lipids"*

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 26, 2011
at 04:02 PM

Weird because you would think my activity level would burn em up quick. Then again, maybe I'm burning the MCTs and carbs first, leaving the LCFA out to dry. Something perplexing about this is that I do not gain weight. I am still 155, with virtually zero flab.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 26, 2011
at 04:02 PM

*"MCT's are also metabolized by the liver. There is every reason to believe that this too will take metabolic preference over LCFA oxidation and result in the very same perturbation of the VLDL metabolism"* So basically, if I am eating lots of CO, and also lots of LCFA like butter/cream/ghee/beef/egg yolks/cheeses/bacon etc etc... it could be accurate to say that the MCTs are being metabolized first in line, leaving the significant amount of LCFA in the blood?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 26, 2011
at 04:01 PM

Weird because you would think my activity level would burn em up quick. Then again, maybe I'm burning the MCTs and carbs first, leaving the LCFA out to dry. Something perplexing about this is that I do not gain weight. I am still 155, with virtually zero flab.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 26, 2011
at 04:00 PM

*" MCT's are also metabolized by the liver. There is every reason to believe that this too will take metabolic preference over LCFA oxidation and result in the very same perturbation of the VLDL metabolism"* So basically, if I am eating lots of CO, and also lots of LCFA like butter/cream/ghee/beef/egg yolks/cheeses/bacon etc etc... it could be accurate to say that the MCTs are being metabolized first in line, leaving the significant amount of LCFA in the blood?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 26, 2011
at 03:24 PM

yes cliff i just ordered a big jug of soybean oil too. http://www.amazon.com/Cibaria-Organic-Soybean-Oil-64/dp/B004D0AJVS I am gonna start taking 3 tbsp per day everyday until my trigs go down.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on September 21, 2011
at 01:48 PM

this is an answer... but is it really an answer? lol.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on September 21, 2011
at 03:28 AM

Perhaps we're losing sight of what's most important.

11838116de44ae449df0563f09bd3d73

(655)

on September 21, 2011
at 01:11 AM

Interesting. It seems Jack Kruse believes Jack has a leaky gut. CO helps leaky gut. So we have somewhat contradictory paths. I believe one reason so many people here have low TG is low meal frequency. I'm not sure why Jack is hungry. Could he still have some insulin resistance, and the carbs are too high for that condition?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on September 21, 2011
at 12:38 AM

I dunno if has been mentioned in any of the other threads, but I just thought of the fact that when people address a choline deficiency with liver/eggs, the liver would package up the fat that's been stuck in it and ship it out. I dunno how plausible that is in your case, but something to keep in mind.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on September 20, 2011
at 08:51 PM

Yep I shop at Trader Joes. I will check it out. Bummer about the BPA. I will check out multiple sources of Oysters. I've had raw, at Anthony's Fish Grotto. Cold slimey little suckers they were. Not bad though because my Dad sprinkled lemon on em and they were in some kinda sauce. That was many years ago.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on September 20, 2011
at 08:42 PM

I don't believe that adipocytes have the ability to release TGs; they can only release non-esterified fatty acids (NEFA). As such, the elevated TGs that he is probably seeing in his patients losing weight would probably be TGs carried from the liver via VLDL as a consequence of the correction of fatty liver specifically that is induced during weight loss.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on September 20, 2011
at 08:17 PM

I personally take a zinc supplement *and* eat a couple cans of smoked oysters a day (they are cheapest at Trader Joe's, which I believe you shop at). You might be hesitant because of the BPAs in the can, but there's not greater endocrine disruptor than a zinc deficiency. I've never eaten raw oysters and never will.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on September 20, 2011
at 07:59 PM

But I guess I'm wondering if it's not necessarily just from losing weight.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on September 20, 2011
at 07:35 PM

Oh, yeah, I see Meredith has already mentioned this.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on September 20, 2011
at 07:35 PM

It appears that scallops contain some zinc, along with selenium and a host of other minerals including magnesium. Scallops don't compare to oysters though as far as zinc content. Also, should I be concerned that scallops are quite high in tryptophan?

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18706)

on September 20, 2011
at 07:31 PM

I wonder if this is related to the supposed phenomenon of people who start losing weight with low carb having a transient rise in triglycerides. I.e. if it has something to do with keto-adaptation, and isn't a problem after that. Just anecdotally, I eat a ton of CO, and my TGs are very low.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on September 20, 2011
at 06:12 PM

Oysters huh? I prefer muscles and/or clams, but I don't mind oysters too much. do they need to be raw or can they be cooked? By the way, I am tryign to find that link that melissa put up a while back about scallops to see if they contain zinc too.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on September 20, 2011
at 05:49 PM

Oh, and zinc will raise T if you are deficient in zinc, which most people likely are. It's a necessary co-factor in the hypothalamus' release of GnRH. You can either take a zinc picolinate supp or eat oysters. Just eat it away from the meat/organs in your diet so you don't block Cu and Fe absorption.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on September 20, 2011
at 05:47 PM

The lack of antioxidants would have some effect on the longevity of these lipoproteins, but you want to be turning them over either way. They should be rapidly recycled after they unload their cargo, whether it's cholesterol or TGs.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on September 20, 2011
at 05:12 PM

My main sources of antioxidants are: red palm oil, strawberries and blueberries, EGCG from tea and kombucha, glutathione from raw milk and cold processed whey protein 5x per week, dark chocolate, organic raw honey.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on September 20, 2011
at 05:06 PM

In other words >> High VLDL and trigs in the blood, and moderately LDL at 161. High antioxidant and SFA content >> means all these lipids that are normally prone to oxidation are "protected" from it >> which means that they remain in the blood longer unoxidized almost as if my body doesn't know what to do with them. Perhaps this is why supping high doses of oxidizable fish oil seems to lower LDL?? But that doesn't mean it's a bright idea. I'm speculating quite a bit in trying to piece it together. I'll end again with... am I thinking incorrectly here?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on September 20, 2011
at 05:00 PM

Zinc will raise T? Should I supp or get it from foods? Also, I have multiple sources of antioxidants. In fact, I am wondering if I am confusing the hell out of my body, because I get very little oxidizable PUFA (which is good), but have high "oxidizable" VLDL and sdLDL that remains in the blood and I don't have enough HDL to pick them up because they are not oxidizing because of I get loads of antioxidants. Am I thinking incorrectly there?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on September 20, 2011
at 04:50 PM

akman: The IF'ing would result in considerable oxidation of VLDL-TGs, especially if you were active during it.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on September 20, 2011
at 04:48 PM

None o fthese parameters that people are afraid of are bad *per se* but the very slow turnover of them coupled with insufficient levels of antioxidants are a recipe for disaster.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on September 20, 2011
at 04:47 PM

I will say though that the fact that you are getting so much sun (making vitamin d out of cholesterol) and your LDL is still that high tells me that you either have low testosterone due to a zinc deficiency (which would soak up a lot of cholesterol itself if you were manufacturing a lot) or your butter/cream intake is simply too high. It would mean that if you cruised like this into winter (I went to UCSD, so I know winters aren't that bad, but you may sun yourself less) it may spike further because the LDL-C would simply have nowhere do go.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on September 20, 2011
at 04:46 PM

Ghee doesn't have the huge amount of C12 (lauric acid) in it. Palm oil does, but I don't believe that the red palm oil you eat does. The ghee/cream in your diet definitely affects your LDL, but it shouldn't have any effect on this. If you'd like to lower your LDL, go ahead and remove/lower it. If not, don't.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on September 20, 2011
at 04:41 PM

We all have and want VLDL-TGs in our blood and these occur in all native populations, however it is my belief that it's not the *presence* of these, but rather the slow turnover rate that is the problem. You want to burn them before they become oxidized in your blood. Being sedentary is simply not an option, so even if the Kitavans have a larger VLDL energy buffer, they turn them over through activity and thus don't encounter CHD.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on September 20, 2011
at 04:14 PM

akmna - yah i think a lot of people can eat coconut oil and carbs... but in my case, I do heavy lifting 5x plus snacking. If I continue to smash weights, guzzle coconut oil, nosh on starchy carbs and snacks, I'm probably not giving myself the opportunity to clear trigs, which is hampering my HDL numbers and cascading into the other lipid problems.

61a27a8b7ec2264b1821923b271eaf54

(3175)

on September 20, 2011
at 04:07 PM

Back to the hack - I eat about 2-3TBS of CO a day/50-100g carbs and my LDL is 90 and Trigs are 30.

1f8384be58052b6b96f476e475abdc74

(2231)

on September 20, 2011
at 02:17 PM

COCONUTS, when eaten as a whole come with carbs...i think they should be consumed in that way too. adding 'other carbs' to coconut oil isnt the same as eating the coconut whole as it comes. i bet a coconut would not produce what coconut oil on a potato would

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on September 20, 2011
at 01:57 PM

I agree it's Jack's insatiable appetite and it's not being controlled by all the starch he's eating. He cheats considerably and is an aboslute snacking machine, the way he enumerates what he eats. More meat, bone broth, and green tea should curb his appetite.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on September 20, 2011
at 01:45 PM

The above is what Dr. Davis says happens in the midst and for a few months after weight loss. Dr.s are not used to seeing high TG, low HDL, high LDL, high Blood glucose because they are not used to seeing patients lose weight.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on September 20, 2011
at 01:43 PM

100-150 grams of carbs per day is like 20% of total calories, which is actually very "normal" at least in terms of hunter-gatherers. In the areas where coconut is likely to be consumed, you're also more likely to have higher carbohydrate intake as well. There was a link on Dr. Eades' twitter the other day to a study on macronutrient ratios in hunter-gatherer diets and also sorted them by latitude. It all made sense I thought.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on September 20, 2011
at 01:42 PM

This blood panel is like what Dr. Davis talks about here: http://www.trackyourplaque.com/blog/2011/09/what-is-this-wacky-thing-called-weight-loss.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+blogspot%2Ftpzx+%28The+Heart+Scan+Blog%29

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on September 20, 2011
at 12:43 PM

I like your posts generally and especially this one. One question/comment I have: I don't think it's rare to consume coconut oil if one is also consuming 100-150 grams of carbs/day. Anyway, I agree with your hypothesis, especially the part about eliminating the snacking. I too believe that the constant inflow of carbohydrate coupled with the elevated TGs (as an energy substrate derived from the CO consumption) could be causing his numbers to be what they are.

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6 Answers

3
Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on September 20, 2011
at 03:17 PM

Now THIS is a hack! This is fascinating Travis. I definitely get my fair share of coconut oil. I always cook my eggs in them, and I always do a 50/50 mix of coconut oil and ghee when cooking tubers. I am totally estimating with that "2 tbsp" by the way. It could be more, but I've never really measured exactly how much I'm using. In fact, now that I think about it, on days that I eat egg and sweet potato together (which is about 2-3 days per week) I take a double portion of coconut oil. We have this tiny ladle spoon that we use for the big nutiva jar. It's about 2 tbsp per "ladle". I will often dump a laddle of that in the pan and cook a sweet potato, and then dump another ladle to cook the eggs in. I think my 2 tbsp of ghee is more accurate, but I'm closer to 4 tbsp of coconut oil in one sitting on many days. I know many people eat that much C/O without even blinking... but in the context of your presentation here, I could see how my C/O consumption, in combination with between meal snacking (even if the snacks are healthy whole foods which they always are), that my liver could continue to push out trigs and VLDL.

I am getting closer to deciding on what my next experimental hack will consist of.

I may be able to whip this deal by making the following changes:

  • Eliminate coconut oil (maybe not forever, but at least for a specific time frame)

  • Curb snacking between meals

  • Workout and walk in a fasted state (including no pre workout drink)

  • Heavily reduce dairy (specifically butter, cream, cheese)

  • Eat more of that Slankers GF beef I have just loaded my freezer with

A couple questions come to mind...

  1. Might ghee have the same potential detriment in this equation as coconut oil?

  2. Is it really necessary to reduce my 3 main dairy items above, or is that primarily speculation?

  3. In the context of making the above changes, should I continue to consume starchy carbs (mainly tubers and rice) or should I go LC at the same time?

On another note... that article from Dr Davis today that Meredith references in her comment above has also got my attention. The changes in blood lipids that Dr Davis points out (TGs up, VLDL up, sdLDL up, HDL down) is exactly what happened to me and I did indeed just radically altar my diet and reform my entire body by exchanging fat for muscle in a very whiplash sort of fashion. It could definitely be playing a role here in addition to all the above, especially since many of my other lab results came back strong or at least not alarming in any way.

This is GREAT stuff folks!

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on September 20, 2011
at 08:51 PM

Yep I shop at Trader Joes. I will check it out. Bummer about the BPA. I will check out multiple sources of Oysters. I've had raw, at Anthony's Fish Grotto. Cold slimey little suckers they were. Not bad though because my Dad sprinkled lemon on em and they were in some kinda sauce. That was many years ago.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on September 20, 2011
at 05:47 PM

The lack of antioxidants would have some effect on the longevity of these lipoproteins, but you want to be turning them over either way. They should be rapidly recycled after they unload their cargo, whether it's cholesterol or TGs.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on September 20, 2011
at 06:12 PM

Oysters huh? I prefer muscles and/or clams, but I don't mind oysters too much. do they need to be raw or can they be cooked? By the way, I am tryign to find that link that melissa put up a while back about scallops to see if they contain zinc too.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on September 20, 2011
at 04:47 PM

I will say though that the fact that you are getting so much sun (making vitamin d out of cholesterol) and your LDL is still that high tells me that you either have low testosterone due to a zinc deficiency (which would soak up a lot of cholesterol itself if you were manufacturing a lot) or your butter/cream intake is simply too high. It would mean that if you cruised like this into winter (I went to UCSD, so I know winters aren't that bad, but you may sun yourself less) it may spike further because the LDL-C would simply have nowhere do go.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on September 20, 2011
at 05:06 PM

In other words >> High VLDL and trigs in the blood, and moderately LDL at 161. High antioxidant and SFA content >> means all these lipids that are normally prone to oxidation are "protected" from it >> which means that they remain in the blood longer unoxidized almost as if my body doesn't know what to do with them. Perhaps this is why supping high doses of oxidizable fish oil seems to lower LDL?? But that doesn't mean it's a bright idea. I'm speculating quite a bit in trying to piece it together. I'll end again with... am I thinking incorrectly here?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on September 20, 2011
at 08:17 PM

I personally take a zinc supplement *and* eat a couple cans of smoked oysters a day (they are cheapest at Trader Joe's, which I believe you shop at). You might be hesitant because of the BPAs in the can, but there's not greater endocrine disruptor than a zinc deficiency. I've never eaten raw oysters and never will.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on September 21, 2011
at 12:38 AM

I dunno if has been mentioned in any of the other threads, but I just thought of the fact that when people address a choline deficiency with liver/eggs, the liver would package up the fat that's been stuck in it and ship it out. I dunno how plausible that is in your case, but something to keep in mind.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on September 20, 2011
at 04:48 PM

None o fthese parameters that people are afraid of are bad *per se* but the very slow turnover of them coupled with insufficient levels of antioxidants are a recipe for disaster.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on September 20, 2011
at 04:46 PM

Ghee doesn't have the huge amount of C12 (lauric acid) in it. Palm oil does, but I don't believe that the red palm oil you eat does. The ghee/cream in your diet definitely affects your LDL, but it shouldn't have any effect on this. If you'd like to lower your LDL, go ahead and remove/lower it. If not, don't.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on September 20, 2011
at 05:00 PM

Zinc will raise T? Should I supp or get it from foods? Also, I have multiple sources of antioxidants. In fact, I am wondering if I am confusing the hell out of my body, because I get very little oxidizable PUFA (which is good), but have high "oxidizable" VLDL and sdLDL that remains in the blood and I don't have enough HDL to pick them up because they are not oxidizing because of I get loads of antioxidants. Am I thinking incorrectly there?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on September 20, 2011
at 05:12 PM

My main sources of antioxidants are: red palm oil, strawberries and blueberries, EGCG from tea and kombucha, glutathione from raw milk and cold processed whey protein 5x per week, dark chocolate, organic raw honey.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on September 20, 2011
at 05:49 PM

Oh, and zinc will raise T if you are deficient in zinc, which most people likely are. It's a necessary co-factor in the hypothalamus' release of GnRH. You can either take a zinc picolinate supp or eat oysters. Just eat it away from the meat/organs in your diet so you don't block Cu and Fe absorption.

11838116de44ae449df0563f09bd3d73

(655)

on September 21, 2011
at 01:11 AM

Interesting. It seems Jack Kruse believes Jack has a leaky gut. CO helps leaky gut. So we have somewhat contradictory paths. I believe one reason so many people here have low TG is low meal frequency. I'm not sure why Jack is hungry. Could he still have some insulin resistance, and the carbs are too high for that condition?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on September 20, 2011
at 07:35 PM

It appears that scallops contain some zinc, along with selenium and a host of other minerals including magnesium. Scallops don't compare to oysters though as far as zinc content. Also, should I be concerned that scallops are quite high in tryptophan?

1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on October 29, 2011
at 08:43 AM

Here is some info on BPA free oysters... http://www.crownprince.com/bpa-free-cans.htm

2
24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on October 26, 2011
at 03:38 PM

My money is on the MCT's obligatory oxidation tamping LCFA oxidation rates down resulting in reduced conversion of VLDL/LDL and/or uptake by adipocytes.

Using radiolabel tracers, Hellerstein's group demonstrated that increased de novo lipogenesis was NOT the source of elevated VLDL in a non-liquid carb HC diet. I blogged on this in a series: Where do Triglycerides Come From? Part I , Part II , Part III. The major contributor to increased VLDL rates was reduced clearance and not increased production by the liver.

What else raises triglycerides? Well ... fructose and alcohol. What do these have in common? Both require "real time" metabolism and reduce LCFA oxidation. MCT's are also metabolized by the liver. There is every reason to believe that this too will take metabolic preference over LCFA oxidation and result in the very same perturbation of the VLDL metabolism seen for the others. Keeping in mind that CO is only 55% MCT's the LCT's that are ingested with them may circulate for quite a bit.

Humans are not ruminants or hind-gut fermenters. To the best of my knowledge our fatty acid synthesis pathways are limited to a few elongations of specific FA's and palmitic/stearic acid synthesis from AcetylCoA. MCT's go right to oxidation.

I'm also not sure if it's ever been studied what percent of MCT's get incorporated into lipoproteins or not. It's my understanding that they are absorbed and transported w/o being incorporated into chylomicrons, go directly to the liver and are metabolized there. So how many chylo remnants and NEFA are MCT's to get repackaged as VLDL? I used to have a wonderful paper on MCT metabolism but I don't recall if it had anything on this. I'll look for it.

Are all elevated triglycerides created equal? I don't think so. On VLC diets, the low trigs may be premature celebration. On a low fat diet they may not be any cause for concern. In the context of the SAD ... they are at very least a concerning biomarker.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 26, 2011
at 04:02 PM

*"MCT's are also metabolized by the liver. There is every reason to believe that this too will take metabolic preference over LCFA oxidation and result in the very same perturbation of the VLDL metabolism"* So basically, if I am eating lots of CO, and also lots of LCFA like butter/cream/ghee/beef/egg yolks/cheeses/bacon etc etc... it could be accurate to say that the MCTs are being metabolized first in line, leaving the significant amount of LCFA in the blood?

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on October 27, 2011
at 10:48 AM

Here's the paper guys: http://www.ajcn.org/content/36/5/950.full.pdf It's been a while since I read it, so I'm not sure if it offers insight to this question, but it's a goodie IMO.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on October 26, 2011
at 06:26 PM

I totally agree with Evelyn here...VLDL is a liver product and it's production is up-regulated in most (fat) people just due to mass action, i.e. by there being so many FFAs in the blood stream that liver feels like it needs to package them up to keep things orderly. If someone is lean like Jack, then it's obviously the result of some other liver-oriented thing. If you drink alcohol, eat fructose *and* eat coconut oil in the presence of a high fat diet, then you definitely have a recipe for elevated TGs.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 26, 2011
at 04:08 PM

If I was gaining, I would think that more activity would be the answer, like adding a bit of cardio to the mix (the only "cardio" exercise I get is walking around at a normal pace). But my lipid numbers clearly indicate a high amount circulating around in my blood and it may be why I don't feel quite right with my heart/blood pumping. Maybe my heart is like *"Dude, wtf? I don't have anywhere to put these lipids"*

Medium avatar

(39821)

on October 26, 2011
at 06:28 PM

That itself might not be that important if you on top of all of that, you also exercised at low intensity in the fasted state because you'd be oxidizing the VLDL-TGs each day. I bet 2 miles of walking before breakfast could correct it by itself. If you didn't want to do that, I think going down the high-liver-priority foods and removing them would make the biggest difference.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 26, 2011
at 04:00 PM

*" MCT's are also metabolized by the liver. There is every reason to believe that this too will take metabolic preference over LCFA oxidation and result in the very same perturbation of the VLDL metabolism"* So basically, if I am eating lots of CO, and also lots of LCFA like butter/cream/ghee/beef/egg yolks/cheeses/bacon etc etc... it could be accurate to say that the MCTs are being metabolized first in line, leaving the significant amount of LCFA in the blood?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 26, 2011
at 04:02 PM

Weird because you would think my activity level would burn em up quick. Then again, maybe I'm burning the MCTs and carbs first, leaving the LCFA out to dry. Something perplexing about this is that I do not gain weight. I am still 155, with virtually zero flab.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 26, 2011
at 04:01 PM

Weird because you would think my activity level would burn em up quick. Then again, maybe I'm burning the MCTs and carbs first, leaving the LCFA out to dry. Something perplexing about this is that I do not gain weight. I am still 155, with virtually zero flab.

24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on October 27, 2011
at 10:46 AM

@Jack: Lots of lean folks with high circulating lipids. Indeed perhaps you are a bit lipodystrophic (is that a word?) and one of those folks with insufficient fat tissue to properly buffer dietary intake. @Travis, I don't think you'd need all 3 to elevate VLDL, I'm more thinking that high MCT intake behaves somewhat like alcohol on the lipid metabolism -- tamping LCFA burning -- but with Jack's metabolism the VLDL is left out in circulation for future use.

1
Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 26, 2011
at 02:32 PM

Travis - Regarding your comment here, I find this blurb on page 2 of particular interest:

After absorption, medium-chain fatty acids exit the enterocyte via the portal circulation and are transported to the liver. Medium-chain fatty acids are essentially oxidized to acetyl-CoA within the hepatic mitochondria (Foufelle et al. 1992). The acetyl-CoA generated may not be completely converted into CO2 and ketone bodies, but a portion of it may serve as substrate for fatty acid synthesis (Geelen 1994). To process the extra acetyl-CoA, the consumption of medium-chain fatty acids could be associated with elevated postprandial activities of acetyl-CoA carboxylase and diacylglycerol acyltransferase which in turn would explain the earlier observed (Van Lith et al. 1990) rise in plasma triacylglycerol.

It seems that the increased oxidation of MCTs to acetyl-CoA could cause a marked increase in triglycerides.

But....

2 things come to mind:

  • How come my trigs were 85 after 2 months of coconut oil consumption back in Oct 2010?

  • How come so many other Paleos can eat gobs of CO and maintain superstar trig levels?

Am I the only Paleo that was experimenting with a high fat, moderate starchy carb diet that included coconut oil AND weight lifting 5x per week?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on October 26, 2011
at 08:04 PM

I'm not recommending anything that is merely temporary in nature. If you chose the fasted walking route, you'd have to always do that. If you chose the no MCT route, you'd have to always do that etc. if you wanted to keep them low. Frankly, aside from the thermic effect, I don't quite understand the reason why a non-ketogenic diet would benefit from MCTs, especially since the *real* thermic effect (and satiety) comes from protein.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on October 26, 2011
at 06:22 PM

1) I think 85 is still pretty high, but you may have been active in a way that oxidized more VLDL-TGs in your muscle mitochondria and 2) many of these CO-eaters with sub-50 TGs are VLC/ZC and are thus oxidizing the VLDL in cardiac and skeletal muscle fairly rapidly, so it can't pool up and/or are females who tend to have lower TGs due presumably to estrogen.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 26, 2011
at 09:12 PM

I can choose the no MCT route quite easily because I really only use CO for cooking and ghee can replace it. Though I think reducing LCFA intake (especially ghee/butter/cream/cheese would be a good idea too. I might just be eating too much fat in the context of a moderate carby diet too (white rice, potatoes, banana, fruits, dark choco, etc). I have also wondered if my high egg consumption might be making things worse for me. I am doubtful of this, but nevertheless, I have wondered.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 26, 2011
at 07:40 PM

The more we dig into the "why/how" of it all, the more it seems that eating a significant amount of LCFA combined with a significant amount of MCTs combined with a significant amount of carbs (be it from starch and/or fructose) can be a recipe for high concentrations of sort of "stranded" lipids in the blood. Even if I were to be able to clear trigs/VLDL temporarily, I would bet that I would be right back in the same predicament inside of a couple months. It seems that I might benefit from eliminating (or at least drastically reducing) coconut oil, reducing LCFA intake, and reducing fructose.

1
0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on September 21, 2011
at 02:16 AM

This is a hack - but is it a question.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on September 21, 2011
at 01:48 PM

this is an answer... but is it really an answer? lol.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on September 21, 2011
at 03:28 AM

Perhaps we're losing sight of what's most important.

1
61a27a8b7ec2264b1821923b271eaf54

(3175)

on September 20, 2011
at 04:05 PM

My N=1. In Sep 2010, I was at 220lbs (5'11/46yo), started 'paleo'. Got down to 185 and stalled for months. Examined what I thought was paleo, and cleaned it up. Now, I IF from 6pm til 11am, work out around 10am, and don't snack between meals. I'm now down to 172. During that time, I added considerable muscle and my labs are all right in the middle of normal for everything I've been tested for. I went from taking a handful of various pills for neolithic metabolic derangements to no meds. Things that really helped break the stall were cutting out all sugar-alcohol snacks, eating a bigger lunch than dinner, and not counting macronutrients. I think when I was counting, it made me want to add food I didn't necessarily want or need, but it was all about the percentages.

61a27a8b7ec2264b1821923b271eaf54

(3175)

on September 20, 2011
at 04:07 PM

Back to the hack - I eat about 2-3TBS of CO a day/50-100g carbs and my LDL is 90 and Trigs are 30.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on September 20, 2011
at 04:50 PM

akman: The IF'ing would result in considerable oxidation of VLDL-TGs, especially if you were active during it.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on September 20, 2011
at 04:14 PM

akmna - yah i think a lot of people can eat coconut oil and carbs... but in my case, I do heavy lifting 5x plus snacking. If I continue to smash weights, guzzle coconut oil, nosh on starchy carbs and snacks, I'm probably not giving myself the opportunity to clear trigs, which is hampering my HDL numbers and cascading into the other lipid problems.

0
E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on October 26, 2011
at 02:46 PM

Maybe he should just replace the coconut oil with soybean oil?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on October 26, 2011
at 03:24 PM

yes cliff i just ordered a big jug of soybean oil too. http://www.amazon.com/Cibaria-Organic-Soybean-Oil-64/dp/B004D0AJVS I am gonna start taking 3 tbsp per day everyday until my trigs go down.

61a27a8b7ec2264b1821923b271eaf54

(3175)

on October 26, 2011
at 06:40 PM

And, do a leptin reset rx!

1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on October 29, 2011
at 08:13 AM

You guys are joking about the oil right?

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