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High fat low carb staple food?

Commented on June 18, 2014
Created June 09, 2014 at 2:42 AM

I'm trying to eat a ketogenic Paleo diet (mild ketosis, so some carbs are fine, I could eat up to 50-60 grams a day) and eat only locally grown organic foods. I was thinking grass fed beef, because I have a supplier near me, but it might be too expensive. Anything else? Nuts have phytates, so I try to eat only a handful at a time (they make me constipated anyways), chia seeds are good, but they wouldn't be enough to sustain me, and I can't really see myself chugging down coconut oil... What do you think?

74e853d880d6eae55a19d038a6b50fd7

(250)

on June 18, 2014
at 04:11 AM

No such thing as "mild ketosis." You're either in or you're out.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19413)

on June 10, 2014
at 10:41 AM

Careful, yellow squash and zucchini are GMOs:

http://www.gmo-compass.org/eng/database/plants/74....

http://cera-gmc.org/index.php?action=gm_crop_datab...

Get non-GMO seeds and grow them yourself.

Medium avatar

(138)

on June 10, 2014
at 09:10 AM

What vitamins do you use? I sometimes use a little potassium salt but that's about it, brazil nuts bump up my Mg, seafood & nuts get me plenty Manganese, Calcium RDA is too high apparently. Those are the only micros I found I was low on consistently when VLC but most of them can be adjusted with diet, unless you have to be strict 90% fat ZC of course.

Medium avatar

(138)

on June 10, 2014
at 08:28 AM

As I understand it gluconeogenesis from fats/glycerol (and lactate/pyruvate) is much more desirable than from amino acids, and the way to do this most efficiently is by training your body to burn fat rather than protein or carbs, so going higher on the former and lower on the latter. If you go low carb but high protein then your body simply isn't challenged to burn fat as efficiently. I think going zero carb, low protein and high fat for a while can kick start it nicely. I certainly notice my lower abdominal fat melt away when I go ZC, plus I feel awesome, it's just kinda boring on the palate

Medium avatar

on June 10, 2014
at 07:39 AM

They're not "vegetable marrow" anymore? Aww... ;)

Medium avatar

on June 10, 2014
at 07:33 AM

Glad to help clarify. :) There's a less ketotic plan you might like to try. The purpose is to maximize micronutrients while maintaining a LOW level of ketosis. It's called Wahls Paleo Plus from the Wahls Protocol book. She uses MCT oil to pump up ketosis so she can include more nutrient dense carbs like greens and veggies. I'm pretty sure she also focuses on organ meats because I've heard her speak and she mentioned liver jerky. When I heal some more, I may give her plan a try and abandon the vitamins. Any strict keto plan needs to be supplemented with vitamins. But hers might not.

Medium avatar

on June 10, 2014
at 07:27 AM

@Chronic Very few people really understand what happens in beta oxidation. Part of the fats do turn into glucose. All gluconeogenesis means is "making new glucose" it doesn't mean you're making it from protein only. Kids who use ketosis have a measured diet plan that gives them 90% fat by weight in grams. Their glucose levels stay relatively normal, they play sports if they are so inclined, grow up into fairly normal adults, etc Unless you are having a specific performance failure, I wouldn't worry about protein intake. Mine: 30-35g/day and I worked 6 hours on my feet today.

3491e51730101b18724dc57c86601173

(8395)

on June 10, 2014
at 01:10 AM

Good to hear. :o) Shop around. We find that we get better prices on grass fed meat by actually going to the farms that sell it, rather than the farmers market--although you can find some of the less expensive meat at the farmers markets, too. Plus, you can see with your own eyes if the animals are really pastured. Offal is almost always cheaper than muscle meat, and better for you, too.

F7b8b445bdbdbc1a9695216bb2cb2aa1

on June 10, 2014
at 12:23 AM

Looking back on my post now, I realized that I didn't really mean ketogenic, but more along the lines of fat adapted, a.k.a being able to switch from using ketones/glucose for fuel easily and efficiently. I get the point you're trying to get across, though, that fat is crucial for creating ketones. Thanks!

F7b8b445bdbdbc1a9695216bb2cb2aa1

on June 10, 2014
at 12:14 AM

Actually, olive oil and avocados are local for me because I live in California, where we grow alot of olives and avocados. I will definitely add those oils to my diet. I wouldn't sweat eating coconut oil either, but I'm having trouble finding a reputable brand that's not very expensive. Thanks!

F7b8b445bdbdbc1a9695216bb2cb2aa1

on June 10, 2014
at 12:11 AM

I guess I kinda contradicted myself there... I meant to say mostly local. And as far as junk goes, I'm good in that department, because I don't eat any junk. Thanks!

Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57

(995)

on June 09, 2014
at 08:51 PM

I'm in a similar boat. Around 100g on average, but there are days of 50g and days of 120g. It's a pretty narrow range that I find difficult to eat outside of. Any more than 125g or so and I'm just eating way too much lean protein to do frequently. And less than 60g and my meals aren't quite as awesome. A little less than a salmon fillet's worth of wiggle room.

I'd be curious to investigate different timing plans and how those might be better optimized for fat and protein intakes. I tend to just work hard, eat a big meal (bordering on Big meal), then rest for 5hrs or so (16:8/2)

Medium avatar

(138)

on June 09, 2014
at 08:38 PM

I find i'm usually around 70-90g most days but think its good to go both lower & higher than that depending. I feel i'm wired to go low protein some days and high on others and i actually think going low enables me to use the protein to greater efficiency on the higher days. It's like fasting, when i fast, exercise, and then resume eating it appears much easier to gain lean mass than if i hadn't fasted.

Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57

(995)

on June 09, 2014
at 08:05 PM

Reading jaminet's take on low protein & carb intakes, it looks like a glucose issue, where mucins can get low (see criticism on kwasniewski's diet.) Combined w/ the need for repairs, a tad more protein when necessary seems beneficial. When glucose is made from protein post-keto-workout you have glucagon in the mix to dull insulin and promote fat burning, with hormones to trigger growth & repair + construction material for repairs + room to store energy + hormone to generate energy & hormone to store it.

There's also UAA tests. I'm not sure where you'd want to be (~1.5mmol-ish w/ exercise.)

Medium avatar

(138)

on June 09, 2014
at 07:40 PM

So in ketosis the rule 'adjust carbohydrates to activity level' becomes 'adjust protein to activity level'? I'd agree, but do you think that you need higher protein because you need it for gluconeogenesis? Or just for repair from the extra activity?

If i have a heavy workout i naturally eat more calories to satisfy myself and i find that all macros increase together, so it works out higher protein, up to 90g, but rarely a higher percentage of protein in regards to total calories.

How would you go about using a glucose/ketone meter to make sure you're consuming optimal protein?

Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57

(995)

on June 09, 2014
at 07:03 PM

I eat a stupid high fiber diet, but raw large swiss chard is a lot to chew on, even for me. My digestion is solid, but I find the texture a little annoying and not particularly worth it with the oxalates. Baby swiss chard leaves however, is one of my favorites to eat raw (lower oxalic acid.) Romaine lettuce is my go to, making up ~2/3 of the leafiness, then I throw in baby spinach, and some mache / arugula / radicchio / baby kale / baby chard / cabbage / whatever I can grab. I make an effort to try to do it somewhat different every time, so all sorts of interesting bits end up in there.

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c

(777)

on June 09, 2014
at 06:24 PM

Very nice, that salad is one tasty potent antioxidant powerhouse! Do you find cooking swiss chard better than raw? I always got the runs eating it raw, i love those dark green leaves & red veins, it's a beautiful plant. High fat is certainly the tastiest way of eating.

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c

(777)

on June 09, 2014
at 06:21 PM

Very nice, that salad is one tasty potent antioxidant powerhouse! Do you find cooking swiss chard is better than raw? I always got the runs trying it raw but i love that dark green leaf with the red veins, it's a beautiful plant. High fat is certainly the tastiest way of eating.

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c

(777)

on June 09, 2014
at 06:15 PM

Ah, in England we strangely call them the French name of courgettes, thanks for reminding me of an excellent low carb source of micros, good stuff.

Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57

(995)

on June 09, 2014
at 05:36 PM

I feel like protein intake is going to vary with your activity level and build. If you're out running and lifting everyday, and restricting carbohydrates, then restricting protein under 0.35g/lb with semi-depleted muscle glycogen stores is potentially going to lead to issues. Jaminet and rosedale have gone back and forth over it a few times, where there's a narrow window that works. You'll probably want a blood ketone / glucose meter. Volek & Phinney / Attia and co. generally recommend twice that intake.

Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57

(995)

on June 09, 2014
at 05:02 PM

Had about 2 bowls of that salad with breakfast, and 2 more with dinner. Breakfast was wild scallops cooked with bright red swiss chard and half a yellow onion, using a pinot gregio + pomegranate vinegar + squeezed organic lemon/organic lime + a little dark honey + organic tamari glaze with fresh-ground pepper and himalayan salt, cooked in coconut oil and grass-fed garlic & herb butter. Dinner was a seasoned bison ribeye w/ lots of broccoli / garlic & the remaining onion in butter ghee and evoo.

Going out for a run & lifting, then getting down with some bivalves. Love the taste of low-carb.

Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57

(995)

on June 09, 2014
at 04:45 PM

Yesterday's salads featured tossed organic romaine + organic spinach + organic baby kale, locally sun-dried organic raisins & sun-dried tomatoes, sliced organic purple carrot, organic baby-cut carrots, sliced local organic peach, sliced local organic plum, a few handfuls of organic blackberries & a handful of raw cacao nibs, a sliced organic bell pepper, sliced organic celery, sliced purple onion, fresh organic italian parsley + fresh organic cilantro, and tiny cubes of aged grassfed cheddar, w/ strawberry vinegar + evoo on top.

Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57

(995)

on June 09, 2014
at 04:35 PM

Ah, I'm thinking summer squash. I do 3 medium size ones on many days (~13 net carbs & 1.5g potassium.) Cubed up and baked under cheese with bell peppers and green onions on garlic + evoo + sliced tomatoes. Or spiralized with meaty red sauce, or fried in butter oil under stir fry veg. Or mashed in with meatloaf. Sliced / seasoned and cooked with meat & veg. Lots of options. I get really bright yellow / zephyr squash and huge zucchinis from the local farmers market.

This is the tool.

http://www.williams-sonoma.com/products/williams-s...

Medium avatar

on June 09, 2014
at 01:11 PM

Because

1. All hunger stops dead

2. All pain stops dead - useful if you have chronic pain

3. Neurological issues can be improved

4. Oxidative stress is massively reduced

5. You have access a to a vast store of energy once you're ketoadapted

6. Clarity of mind, calm of soul

7. For some people, this is an ancestral diet, like Eskimos, Chukchi, and those who have genetics derived from people who lived in Northern climates

8. People who were previously on multiple medications can often stop taking so many or all of them

Need more?

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c

(777)

on June 09, 2014
at 12:06 PM

Good point on the protein, also it can be good to not have all the protein in one meal as we can only use about 30g in one go, any extra will be converted to glucose which can kick you out of ketosis, it has toxic by products (ammonia) and it's an expensive way of getting glucose! I tend to have one meal per day so rarely space out my protein but it's worth baring in mind for those wanting to be strict, quite a few of the ketosis promoting/paleo authors say to not go over 25g protein in a sitting, partly for the reasons above but also to not activate the mTor pathway & prevent autophagy

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c

(777)

on June 09, 2014
at 11:06 AM

Add some olive oil to that salad & squash and you might have a half decent HFLC staple, easy on the squash though I can only have about 1/4 of a butternut squash before i'm close to reaching 50g net carbs.

Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57

(995)

on June 09, 2014
at 05:19 AM

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41757)

on June 09, 2014
at 02:57 AM

Why go into ketosis at all?

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8 Answers

0
A048b66e08306d405986b6c04bf5e8e4

on June 18, 2014
at 03:56 AM

Fatty pastured bacon (if you eat pork), chicken/turkey drumsticks with the skin on, beef cheeks, coconut oil for frying/sauteeing, if you do dairy, alfredo sauce made with organic/grassfed/raw heavy cream and cheeses (delicious over sauteed vegetables in coconut oil for an extra wham load of fat), fatty cuts of meat like ribs/ribeye, pork belly, lamb, bone marrow, and of course a weekly or so dose of organ meat and plenty of fresh leafy green and cruciferous veggies, condiments: homemade paleo mayonnaise, coconut butter (I find coconut butter easier to eat by the spoonful than coconut oil)

0
6fece842bd1bcf5724f458a302a2156e

on June 10, 2014
at 08:26 PM

My staple meal is put olive oil in a pan (lots), add a piece of salmon cut up and some fresh sea food and then add veg eg peppers, cabbage etc, eat with boiled spinach which has lots of butter in it. Sometimes I add a whole avocado.

Another current favourite meal which is why Im not losing weight is 250g of nuts and raisins in a bowl of double cream. My body is not keen on cream (and I have no milk) and I need to get out of having if I ever want to lose the 14 pounds I need to.

I have eaten just about 100% paleo for the last few years and never felt better but I am not losing any weight because of the large meals.

0
3491e51730101b18724dc57c86601173

(8395)

on June 09, 2014
at 03:01 PM

I think the phrase "locally grown" is confusing because obviously you are unlikely to live where things like chia and coconut are local products. They are good adjuncts to a Paleo diet, but they are not local for most.

You're going to have to do some sleuthing. I live in an area where grassfed meat CAN cost between $20 and $30 a pound, but there are also some farms that sell it for $6 a pound. 2 or 3 pounds of $6 meat feeds our family of four all week, along with 2 or 3 dozen pastured eggs, 1 pound of fish, and tons of organic veggies. We try to make some of that meat offal (liver, heart, marrow bones). We buy an organic chicken every week, NOT pastured because I just can't manage a $24 chicken at $6 a pound. We can get 3 or 4 meals (including broth) from a chicken. We buy all this from farmers markets and local farms. My husbands employer owns a local organic farm which helps a lot as we get a discount. If it weren't for my black thumb I'd be planting stuff too, but I can't afford the $45 lone tomato ;o). We buy grassfed butter at organic groceries--big brands that happen to be local because of where we live.

Chia, coconut, nuts, and seeds are not staples, they are fill ins. Think meat and veggies first. They ARE local and they are staples. They are expensive only in context. A single guy could get by with a few pounds of meat/offal, a chicken, some fish and eggs for protein plus organic veggies. Eliminating junk from your diet can help finance it.

Btw, grassfed meat is very lean, so you'll need to add fat. You might be able to find local sources of tallow and lard, but that's where coconut oil, olive oil (local for me) and grassfed butter (if you're ok with dairy) become necessary.

F7b8b445bdbdbc1a9695216bb2cb2aa1

on June 10, 2014
at 12:11 AM

I guess I kinda contradicted myself there... I meant to say mostly local. And as far as junk goes, I'm good in that department, because I don't eat any junk. Thanks!

3491e51730101b18724dc57c86601173

(8395)

on June 10, 2014
at 01:10 AM

Good to hear. :o) Shop around. We find that we get better prices on grass fed meat by actually going to the farms that sell it, rather than the farmers market--although you can find some of the less expensive meat at the farmers markets, too. Plus, you can see with your own eyes if the animals are really pastured. Offal is almost always cheaper than muscle meat, and better for you, too.

0
Medium avatar

on June 09, 2014
at 03:00 PM

For local foods you should check out local farms, butchers & fishmongers, buy meat, offal, bones, fish & eggs locally, render your own fat etc but remember local may not always be optimal...

Coconut in all its glorious forms is probably the perfect HFLC food and an excellent staple, especially for a ketogenic diet due to its abundance of MCT's that can keep your brain fuelled with ketones even in the presence of some dietary carbohydrates.

Humans have used coconut for thousands of years and the societies that use it as their staple (with as much as 70% of the diet consisting of coconut fat) tend to have very low rates of all the diseases associated with modern societies.

Whether coconut as a staple is optimal for someone of say Northern European descent rather than a Tropical Islander is very interesting...

Olive oil & avocados are more sources of fat that may not be locally sourced but are definitely worth including in your diet.

F7b8b445bdbdbc1a9695216bb2cb2aa1

on June 10, 2014
at 12:14 AM

Actually, olive oil and avocados are local for me because I live in California, where we grow alot of olives and avocados. I will definitely add those oils to my diet. I wouldn't sweat eating coconut oil either, but I'm having trouble finding a reputable brand that's not very expensive. Thanks!

0
Medium avatar

(10611)

on June 09, 2014
at 11:25 AM

Glad you're thinking it through. I lean towards fish and seafood, cooked or packed in oil. Even away from the coast you can get decent freshwater fish like lake trout, perch and whitefish. i don't know what the Paleo gods think of catfish and carp, but they're a lot cheaper. Whichever you choose, pan sautee with lots of butter.

0
De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c

on June 09, 2014
at 11:21 AM

Coconut oil/milk or clarified butter w/cooked non-starchy veggies, olive or avocado oil w/raw salad veggies.

I prefer seafood & eggs but some grassfed beef, lamb or pastured pork are fine choices, pork belly is very high fat. Also avocados, fresh coconut, fresh olives, some nuts.

My favourite meal is a coconut milk/ghee curry with seafood & hard boiled eggs, i usually add minimal starch/soft carrots to soak up the sauce a bit.

0
Medium avatar

on June 09, 2014
at 10:57 AM

The key word is ketogenic. Consider rendering lard or tallow and you'll get the gist of it. Until you embrace the fats, it won't work. Protein will destroy a keto plan. If you don't think you can handle a direct path to animal fats just yet, then start with a fat bomb made of butter + cream cheese, flavored however you like. There are plenty of recipes online. Have that for breakfast, and follow 12 hours later with a salad slathered with oily or creamy dressing, and a SMALL amount of grilled meat. Your keto level of protein should be around 50 grams a day, max. Keto is not a high protein plan.

My keto staples: sour cream, butter, suet, lard, duck fat -- significant quantities of these go into each meal

Technically, a ketogenic diet is one that is minimum 70% fat BY WEIGHT IN GRAMS, not by percent calories. However, as most calorie counting software goes by percent calories, it's fairly safe to go by 75% to 85% fat by calories. Easy snacks on this diet: pepperoni, a tiny amount of almond butter with a lot of coconut oil added, heavy cream with flavored seltzer (no calorie). The benefit of coconut oil is that it keeps you ketogenic even if you make a few mistakes. If you want an even stronger keto effect, you can use refined MCT oil, depends how much ketosis you want.

Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57

(995)

on June 09, 2014
at 05:36 PM

I feel like protein intake is going to vary with your activity level and build. If you're out running and lifting everyday, and restricting carbohydrates, then restricting protein under 0.35g/lb with semi-depleted muscle glycogen stores is potentially going to lead to issues. Jaminet and rosedale have gone back and forth over it a few times, where there's a narrow window that works. You'll probably want a blood ketone / glucose meter. Volek & Phinney / Attia and co. generally recommend twice that intake.

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c

(777)

on June 09, 2014
at 12:06 PM

Good point on the protein, also it can be good to not have all the protein in one meal as we can only use about 30g in one go, any extra will be converted to glucose which can kick you out of ketosis, it has toxic by products (ammonia) and it's an expensive way of getting glucose! I tend to have one meal per day so rarely space out my protein but it's worth baring in mind for those wanting to be strict, quite a few of the ketosis promoting/paleo authors say to not go over 25g protein in a sitting, partly for the reasons above but also to not activate the mTor pathway & prevent autophagy

F7b8b445bdbdbc1a9695216bb2cb2aa1

on June 10, 2014
at 12:23 AM

Looking back on my post now, I realized that I didn't really mean ketogenic, but more along the lines of fat adapted, a.k.a being able to switch from using ketones/glucose for fuel easily and efficiently. I get the point you're trying to get across, though, that fat is crucial for creating ketones. Thanks!

Medium avatar

on June 10, 2014
at 07:27 AM

@Chronic Very few people really understand what happens in beta oxidation. Part of the fats do turn into glucose. All gluconeogenesis means is "making new glucose" it doesn't mean you're making it from protein only. Kids who use ketosis have a measured diet plan that gives them 90% fat by weight in grams. Their glucose levels stay relatively normal, they play sports if they are so inclined, grow up into fairly normal adults, etc Unless you are having a specific performance failure, I wouldn't worry about protein intake. Mine: 30-35g/day and I worked 6 hours on my feet today.

0
Cf08ad26759fdd206a2c9f9385080a57

(995)

on June 09, 2014
at 06:04 AM

Lots of squash and salad.

De1095b2ba29c1035f00428cbfe3cc7c

(777)

on June 09, 2014
at 11:06 AM

Add some olive oil to that salad & squash and you might have a half decent HFLC staple, easy on the squash though I can only have about 1/4 of a butternut squash before i'm close to reaching 50g net carbs.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19413)

on June 10, 2014
at 10:41 AM

Careful, yellow squash and zucchini are GMOs:

http://www.gmo-compass.org/eng/database/plants/74....

http://cera-gmc.org/index.php?action=gm_crop_datab...

Get non-GMO seeds and grow them yourself.

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