20

votes

To Circumcise or Not To Circumcise?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created January 20, 2012 at 4:42 PM

In my household, a baby boy is due, and circumcision discussions abound.

Naturally, we have really dug into the so called "pros and cons".

After much research in this area, I have some new perspective that actually surprised me a little when I compare my new understanding to what I thought I knew.

I am always open to hearing both sides of the coin on PaleoHacks.

Do you think circumcision is good? Is it warranted for health reasons? Is it necessary? Or shall we let boys remain in their natural design and leave them as they are when they enter the world?

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

+1 for actually looking into it and coming to an informed decision regardless.

5b8cf203186c3cb7810f5046e0532be8

(166)

on April 17, 2013
at 04:41 PM

What I find weird is that you don't give any reason for the decision else than 'my husband decided it was the right thing'. In that essence it is not an answer.

9ce78c27a506960f3e4254727b024b75

(105)

on March 23, 2012
at 04:23 PM

The videos got me too! We didn't circumcise our newborn baby and I'm glad my husband didn't care since he is circumcised and most men want their sons to "look" like them..

2507b557331c8a674bc81197531e609a

(4994)

on January 27, 2012
at 02:13 PM

Bree, from the interaction with you and the answers and posts of yours I have read, I have no doubt whatsoever that the descision you came to would have been given much consideration and thought. Don't worry about the negativity, some people love to be judgemental and close minded. Surprising how often in this community given how much negativity and judgement we receive as a community anyway! You are a lovely person and a great mother and gave a well thought out "other side of the coin" answer which doesn't deserve any downvotes or negative comments.

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on January 27, 2012
at 08:03 AM

Thats only because no woman wants to have sex with them. Less opportunity=less risk.

C296508bdbbbd8656f46e258fad81976

(170)

on January 27, 2012
at 02:49 AM

Amen to that...

Aead76beb5fc7b762a6b4ddc234f6051

(15239)

on January 26, 2012
at 10:31 PM

bree, im so sorry that you have been getting a backlash from the community here for your most personal choices. it really just reflects the maturity of the people doing the downvoting. i think it clearly says more about the people doing the downvoting and name calling than it does about you. i happen to know that youre a wonderful mother and any young man would be blessed to have, and its unfortunate that a few dogmatic people who are uncomfortable with ambiguity, and intolerant of views contrary to their own could make you feel badly about that. (((((bree)))))

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on January 26, 2012
at 10:17 PM

Bree - regarding your edit. I completely agree. I definitely wanted to hear both sides. I think you approached your explanation in how you came to your decision very well. I don't think you were insensitive or "barbaric" at all. I do think circumcision could be fairly labeled as barbaric, but that absolutely does not EVER mean that all parents who circumcise their boys are barbaric or cruel or do not care about the well being of their boy. If someone wants to come to that ridiculous conclusion, let them wallow in their own twisted mentality. Again, thanks for your contribution here Bree.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on January 26, 2012
at 07:54 AM

Are you really comparing the earlobe, a part of an organ that doesn't have very many nerve endings at all, to a part of the penis?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on January 26, 2012
at 07:51 AM

Oh the irony..you are criticizing people for having just opinions when this is exactly that. There are plenty of studies cited in the answers here showing circumcision affects male pleasure, that pain in infancy can cause lifelong damage, and that circumcision might prevent some STDs. If I did what my community I grew up with wanted me to I'd be married with 7 children and not writing on this forum.

Medium avatar

(12379)

on January 22, 2012
at 02:34 AM

We live in Canada, the procedure was done for free and we were not talked into it by our doctor, and there was no selling of foreskin.

218f4d92627e4289cc81178fce5b4d00

on January 21, 2012
at 11:44 PM

Or the a cases where the penis was amputated due a botched circumcision. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

218f4d92627e4289cc81178fce5b4d00

on January 21, 2012
at 11:39 PM

Parents face many decisions, immunization is another biggy, I don't hate my parents, they didn't know any better and did what they thought best at the time. I pity them. In hindsight one of the very few things they got wrong. If they knew then what I know now then yeah, I think that feeling would change

218f4d92627e4289cc81178fce5b4d00

on January 21, 2012
at 11:38 PM

Aside from religious practices, the only place in the world where it is routinely practiced seems to be the country where the doctors have ulterior motives for the removal of the foreskin, you don't think they will continue doing this long after most doctors have proved it pointless? You don’t buy what Monsanto say about GMO, you don't buy what the FDA say about cholesterol. Yet the factors in favour of circumcision offered by a system that has a vested interest in selling the foreskins, you buy that?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on January 21, 2012
at 07:18 PM

FRM - I understand what you mean with your comment, but as Bree said, it's a tough choice for some people. They discussed it, mulled it over and chose with the best intention in mind. Like it or not, parents of baby boys are forced into making a "yes" or "no" and many factors on both sides make you wonder. Thanks for your contribution Bree. I don't think your son will hate you. I never hated my parents for it.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on January 21, 2012
at 07:16 PM

FRM - I understand what you mean with your comment, but jeez.. Bree said that it was a tough choice. They discussed it, mulled it over. Honestly it's not an easy choice. And like it or now, it is one that the parents of a baby boy are forced into making a "yes" or "no" on and many factors on both sides make you wonder. Thanks for your contribution Bree. I don't think your son will hate you. I never hated my parents for it.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on January 21, 2012
at 05:03 PM

Yes,circumcision is a moneymaker: http://www.atcc.org/ATCCAdvancedCatalogSearch/ProductDetails/tabid/452/Default.aspx?ATCCNum=PCS-110-010&Template=primaryCells

23cdea3bba94e17d2b58b525773d0c0a

(729)

on January 21, 2012
at 04:46 PM

OddBallin- I was waiting for someone to even bring that up- not just deaths resulting from infection, but also shock (when the baby doesn't cry or just seems to go to sleep- yes they still felt it, they're in shock) and blood loss. The reason most people don't hear about these deaths, which are not uncommon, is because they aren't filed under 'complications associated with circumcision'. Same goes for cesareans..... Tragic indeed.

9b4208ea76a3eaf64f94317fad5a34e4

(50)

on January 21, 2012
at 04:14 PM

A man without a foreskin can't know that he's missing a significant, sexually sensitive piece of real estate. If he did, he certainly wouldn't impose this practice on his, or anyone's, son.

Medium avatar

(12379)

on January 21, 2012
at 04:12 PM

No, I don't regret the decision that my husband made. As a parent, there are many tough choices that are made. We (my husband and I) do not make them on a whim or take them lightly. While I understand your sentiment, I really had to support my husband on this one.

218f4d92627e4289cc81178fce5b4d00

on January 21, 2012
at 01:40 PM

you don't regret? it's not your body, it's not your penis, it's your son's. When he's older and informed to make his own decision then that should be his choice.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on January 21, 2012
at 11:14 AM

Being British I was not aware that this was such a controversial issue :S

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on January 21, 2012
at 08:02 AM

But that said, I'd prefer my sons to have the choice.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on January 21, 2012
at 07:59 AM

I deleted Jayjays rude comments here. People, please don't get emotional. It's clear there are many variables to being good in bed and obviously plenty of cut men are good in bed. Marie and I were both saying some things are EASIER because there is an automatic baseline of lubrication already present on the male. For cut men, they may need to use more foreplay or added lubrication from other sources. It's not a big deal. Let's not get emotional about it.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 21, 2012
at 05:36 AM

Get er DONE BABE!

Medium avatar

(4878)

on January 21, 2012
at 05:16 AM

Sorry if my tone sounded critical of circ'd guys. Don't take it personally. Talent is talent, from my experience as well ;)

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 21, 2012
at 05:15 AM

Didn't mean that to be so mean but no other variabel? REALLY? None? PLEASE!!! I've bean taught and or learned Many Many MANY variables that are physical! Thats not even to include the psychological componenents....come now....just recommend it as your own preference and not the pancea of cockdom and I could easily agree!

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 21, 2012
at 04:52 AM

No other variable BS...End discussion. LOL.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 21, 2012
at 04:51 AM

I've seen/heard the exact opposite...are they just "strokin" my ego lol? Just saying, your experience isn't what I have heard of event from non-circed friends.........many more variables than circed status...yes we use to discuss this and those other variables are a point of matter.

400b249032e4c829c4e802436833ea3b

(0)

on January 21, 2012
at 04:39 AM

Vasectomies are a decision that an adult can decide on. Big difference! Babies v's adults!

Medium avatar

(4878)

on January 21, 2012
at 04:34 AM

Nope, no other variable. Sorry. The combination of my friends and my own experience is a large enough sample size for me to agree with the research literature. I would not be surprised if circs are the reason 70% of women in most research literature do not orgasm from penetration alone.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 21, 2012
at 04:15 AM

Just saying...could be some variable missing besides the foreskin.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 21, 2012
at 04:14 AM

Seems I have...married to one. Not to mention college and 4 years after.....So lubrication doesnt increase with each new orgasm???? Thought that happened as a point of "keeping up what youve made" ....seems YMMV is quite appropriate...but its cool either way. Do who you want were you want when you want!

Medium avatar

(4878)

on January 21, 2012
at 03:33 AM

It's not a YMMV issue, it is a functional issue. You need to talk to women who've done the research ;)

Aead76beb5fc7b762a6b4ddc234f6051

(15239)

on January 21, 2012
at 03:06 AM

so well said, bree. we had almost exactly the same experience, and my husband made the final choice to have our son circumcised. there was a lot of searching, but it was one particular friend of ours who was not circumcised, then chose to have it done when he was 18. without going into the details of his story, it convinced us what the right choice was for our family. i respect everyones personal choices if they are made with love and care. it was a hard decision for us, precisely because we could empathize with both sides. but we are comfortable with it.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 21, 2012
at 02:45 AM

Sorry Marie ...can't access your PDF is that a journal? I'm gonna file this under YMMV depending on partners ;). But its cool, we all have our preferences in the opposite sex.

Medium avatar

(4878)

on January 21, 2012
at 02:19 AM

JayJay, it isn't about making lube, it is about keeping what you've made: ^ O'Hara, K.; J. O'Hara (January 1999). "The effect of male circumcision on the sexual enjoyment of the female partner" (PDF). BJU International 83 (Supplement 1): 79–84. doi:10.1046/j.1464-410x.1999.0830s1079.x. PMID 10349418.

F9a49f6bdf1ce81a1dd47737da426fc8

(210)

on January 21, 2012
at 02:10 AM

I wondered about that. So sad. And unnecessary.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 21, 2012
at 01:35 AM

BTW I'm not actually arguing for circumcision. I'm just pointing out that there is a female counterpart to this where little girls frequently get their ears pierced at very young ages without actual informed consent with the assumption they are going to have it done later in life anyhow.....so you could argue any of these acts to be "barbaric"...pfft....without consent at a young age or with consent as a cultural/social pressure.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 21, 2012
at 01:30 AM

So body mutilation that produces scar tissue is OK as long as the wound closes....got it :D

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 21, 2012
at 01:23 AM

Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm confused (I have a right to be I'm not a girl). So how does being circumcised or not reduce the need for "lube"....I mean I was taught to "warm the oven up before cookin"....your methods for doing this may vary....but if done properly there seems to be plenty of lube produced. This may get very anatomically correct or personal, but I am seriously curious.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 21, 2012
at 01:18 AM

Thats my stance on most all interventions....if you at least made the effort to become informed and it was your CHOICE...then let the chips fall where they may...you did your best.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on January 21, 2012
at 12:07 AM

I had to fight every impulse to throw my body over my baby to protect him from just getting the heel prick to do blood tests. Regardless of the pros and cons of the outcome, as a mother I could not stomach the idea of letting anyone inflict pain on my baby.

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on January 20, 2012
at 11:54 PM

It does serve a functional purpose, which I so rarely see mentioned in these debates, I'm glad you brought this up it is preferable for women's health as far as I'm concerned. As someone who suffered from chronic UTIs with a few circumcised boyfriends, the lack of friction on the urethra I finally encountered with an intact partner put a stop that.

E286e6ba6ef6c4c4a31a749e59aa57e1

(608)

on January 20, 2012
at 11:35 PM

This whole thread should go right next to the "Is interracial marriage Paleo thread."

E286e6ba6ef6c4c4a31a749e59aa57e1

(608)

on January 20, 2012
at 11:33 PM

Marie sounds like you've done some in depth study on all the ins and outs of it. Good luck winning the noble battle against circumcision.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on January 20, 2012
at 11:31 PM

JayJay~ Pierced ears can fully heal closed. Foreskins do not grow back. Logic fail.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on January 20, 2012
at 11:23 PM

A frank conversation over some drinks? wow.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on January 20, 2012
at 11:13 PM

Calling it barbaric = not productive. The best thing we can hope for is for it not to be a default practice in the US and require a religious reason (kind of like the deal the Amish have).

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on January 20, 2012
at 11:09 PM

yeah, some people never think about and it just kind of gets done.

E36cb992cf0a5eba8b97a359c15f38b3

(4347)

on January 20, 2012
at 09:59 PM

I was terrified that having my son at a military hospital would end in an unwanted circumcision. Luckily we didn't have any problems. (Granted, he's much younger than your sons and I think times have changed a bit.) That doctor would have gotten punched were I in that situation.

E36cb992cf0a5eba8b97a359c15f38b3

(4347)

on January 20, 2012
at 09:58 PM

That last paragraph is one of the most important reasons we decided not to circumcise our son. I don't see the necessity of it in infancy; if he wants circumcision as an adult that's his choice. On a more personal, visceral note: I would never ever allow mutilation of my daughter without her consent (which at that point would mean she's an adult and can make her own decisions), so why would I allow it for my son? No way am I inflicting unnecessary pain on my children.

D8f58eba263277ec6119293137b85b02

(1071)

on January 20, 2012
at 09:37 PM

And some infants die due to infection from the operation anyway, which is a particularly tragic form of irony.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on January 20, 2012
at 09:27 PM

Why don't you leave the kid's genitals alone and let them decide what they want to do when they get older?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on January 20, 2012
at 09:12 PM

Hehe, yeah, I guess you should look for European or British men. I love the accents anyway, just not enough of them around :) However, it's interesting that I first learned about the issue from my earliest American boyfriends who were cut and would tell me how they wish they had been given the choice. I never though about it before then, but they definitely converted me. Most of them had issues that they believed were caused by circumcision and none of my Euro BFs ever had these issues so I tend to agree with them.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 20, 2012
at 09:11 PM

Sexual function is decreased with circumcision??? I better tell little jayjay....he didn't get the memo

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on January 20, 2012
at 09:09 PM

Matthew since you are on the other side of the pond, you would be SHOCKED at some of the crap people talk about being uncut being dirty or gross. It reminds me of those old douching ads for women that told women that their natural smell was dirty and gross and their husbands wouldn't want them unless they put perfume and soap up there.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 20, 2012
at 09:08 PM

Nah...I'm male and circumcised and must say I've never wondered what if...but, as a dad I can understand Jack's angst about it.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on January 20, 2012
at 08:58 PM

Marie. I agree with you. I think you misunderstood. Read my point again and you'll see :)

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 20, 2012
at 08:51 PM

I'm not for circumcision necessarily, but to put a bit of perspective there are a bunch of little girls out there getting their ears "mutilated" not entirely of their own free will either.

Medium avatar

(4878)

on January 20, 2012
at 08:49 PM

Jack..really..do you want your son to "suck in the sack"? Sexual function is a GREAT reason NOT to circumcise. {The voice of experience, Marie.)

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 20, 2012
at 08:46 PM

South Park told the kids it would make Ikes winky look bigger :)

F9a49f6bdf1ce81a1dd47737da426fc8

(210)

on January 20, 2012
at 08:27 PM

Yes. Cleanliness is really used as an argument. The whole thing seems so obvious to me. It goes against nature and it's painful. You're cutting off part of a baby boy's penis because of possible future germs? And I really don't think humans are born with 'useless' body parts. There's a design there.

Medium avatar

(4878)

on January 20, 2012
at 08:08 PM

My college years would have been sooo much more fun had I gone to university in Europe!! And, Ms. M, I did have to *edit my response to tone down my opinion. In the US, and at my age, it is a needle in a haystack search. "Excuse me Sir, would you drop your trousers so that I may determine whether I wish to pursue a relationship"...

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on January 20, 2012
at 08:05 PM

Is cleanliness really used as an argument?

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 20, 2012
at 08:04 PM

I think you'll find there were a lot of notions around back then which were a lot more offensive than not asking a baby's permission before acting on its behalf as a parent. Judging history by modern (or at least current) standards is a tiring and depressing business. That said, it's not a re-enactment is it. We should be able to look at the evidence rationally and make the best decisions with the information available today.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on January 20, 2012
at 07:59 PM

Yes, every type of sex is so much harder (har har) without a foreskin.

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on January 20, 2012
at 07:57 PM

OK, I've just seen this topic get REALLY ugly in my mom forums. I love when it can be talked about in a mature way but the problem is that like most controversial topics, there's a camp that operates purely on emotional and/or religious reasons and there is no reasoning with them. I think it's really hard for many circumcised men to step back and admit they've been mutilated so they fight tooth and nail to prove that it's harmless.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on January 20, 2012
at 07:55 PM

jim bob, the foreskin has many many many functionalities. search, and you shall find. or revist this thread in time, and you may find it posted in an answer here.

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on January 20, 2012
at 07:54 PM

This is NSFW but I've convinced a few people with this fantastic post at Dr. Momma. Shows the difference between a cut and uncut penis in both infants and adults. The uncut one looks a lot healthier. It definetely proves the theory that cut "looks better" is false. http://www.drmomma.org/2011/08/intact-or-circumcised-significant.html

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on January 20, 2012
at 07:53 PM

This is NSFW but I've convinced a few people with this fantastic post at Dr. Momma. Shows the difference between a cut and uncut penis in both infants and adults. The uncut one looks a lot healthier. It definetely proves the theory that cut "looks better" is false. http://www.drmomma.org/2011/08/intact-or-circumcised-significant.html

Ed92809f18ca70e360768b4f2c9c9df6

(356)

on January 20, 2012
at 07:35 PM

the whole "might as well cut off other body parts" argument fails because there is a difference in functionality

Ed983a42344945b1ff70fd9597a23493

on January 20, 2012
at 07:12 PM

There are some modern Jews who do a kind of symbolic cut of the foreskin in lieu of a full ritualistic removal.

A03a8c971145965630283ff0b47484a0

(30)

on January 20, 2012
at 07:12 PM

I don't think Paleo2.0 is in the minority of circumcised men. I am male, circumcised and I have never "wondered what it would be like if [I] still had the skin I was born with." Also, you can find research on this topic that supports both sides.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on January 20, 2012
at 07:04 PM

I can't fathom how anyone would even consider such a barbarous practice in 2012.

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 20, 2012
at 06:59 PM

I'm curious about the tags now though. Does Jack call his King-Kong?

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on January 20, 2012
at 06:47 PM

We seem to be managing alright in the UK with all our bits still attached.

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on January 20, 2012
at 06:34 PM

We are a Jewish family that chose not to cut as well. Solidarity, sister.

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on January 20, 2012
at 06:19 PM

I guess I'm in the minority, but I'm circumsised and perfectly happy with it. Actually glad I don't have a foreskin to worry about.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on January 20, 2012
at 06:08 PM

as a moderator it is my responsibility to make sure this site runs smoothly. framing a highly inflammatory issue in terms of dinosaurs is not the way to do this, no matter how amusing it might be, mods are the ones who have to delete users and answers that have gotten out of hand because of it.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 20, 2012
at 06:02 PM

Booooo melissa BOOOOOO!.....ah censorship of Jack's imagination and well framed question.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on January 20, 2012
at 06:00 PM

I had to edit this question because it was framed in a way that made the debate too antagonistic. I love dinosaurs and gorillas, but they are not a good way to frame an argument.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on January 20, 2012
at 05:53 PM

haha. very funny JayJay. I would replace the word immaturity with the word humor.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 20, 2012
at 05:52 PM

My kids got circumcised....doh, I kinda lost by the wife telling me how nice my penis looks....ah well, we agreed on the no HepB stab on day one.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 20, 2012
at 05:48 PM

"we hack things around here"....on a circumcision thread.....by the ani-circumcision guy....hehehe.....My immaturity keeps me sane.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 20, 2012
at 05:44 PM

That physician may have come around to a sensible fist in his face....

Ed983a42344945b1ff70fd9597a23493

on January 20, 2012
at 05:38 PM

Alright, I take it back! ;)

57317857d0212cf20edcc4c26199648c

on January 20, 2012
at 05:37 PM

I agree, you would probably should cut off their hands as it will limit other risky behaviors they could engage in. In fact in may be safer to simply cut off their arms. We probably also want to amputate the legs as they are less likely to be mobile and put them self in harms way. You may also want to consider cutting their head off to prevent them from thinking of doing anything risky as well.

Ed983a42344945b1ff70fd9597a23493

on January 20, 2012
at 05:35 PM

Religion comes into play, but so does so much...I don't see why it would be fine to ask questions about diet, lifestyle, etc. without it being reasonable to ask about this extremely important issue that directly affects the health of the person it is being done to for his entire life!

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on January 20, 2012
at 05:34 PM

No way. Don't you dare apologize. Bring it girl! Multiple great points in here.

Ed983a42344945b1ff70fd9597a23493

on January 20, 2012
at 05:31 PM

Nicely said....

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on January 20, 2012
at 05:30 PM

Cory - Well I am circumcised, and I am now leaning much more heavily toward not. And yes I did ask for your vote. I appreciate everyone's input, including yours. But, as you know, we hack things here. If you put bad science on the board, it's gonna get hacked.

B0fe7b5a9a197cd293978150cbd9055f

(8938)

on January 20, 2012
at 05:29 PM

I agree with Jack. Religion has nothing to do with this thread.

E286e6ba6ef6c4c4a31a749e59aa57e1

(608)

on January 20, 2012
at 05:10 PM

This is Exactly what Im saying. Because even if hes not then his partner could be. This is just my opinion, and most guys I know that are cut dont seem to worry about it, or care. The only guys I see crying about being cut are the ones that arent. You asked for my vote, thats my vote move on.

D5d982a898721d3392c85f951d0bf0aa

(2417)

on January 20, 2012
at 05:08 PM

Who said anything about promiscuity? (I'm not pro C!)

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on January 20, 2012
at 05:04 PM

Ashley. I think this is an excellent forum for this discussion. I know there are religious implications to circumcision, but I am asking from a health perspective. If the religious implications do not stand up well to true science and health behind this practice, then let's have the real truth be brought to light.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on January 20, 2012
at 05:01 PM

so what you are saying is... it's good to nip the tip of a baby boy because it could help his chances of not getting an infectious disease if he chooses to be sexually promiscuous when he grows up?

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on January 20, 2012
at 05:00 PM

I agree with you that circumcision is not natural and probably harmful, we are a Jewish family that decided not to circ but This is probably a bad forum for this conversation.

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on January 20, 2012
at 04:59 PM

Bad science. Lots of good links and cites on these websites. http://www.drmomma.org/2010/04/doctors-reject-circumcision-as-hiv.html http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/info/HIVStatement.html http://www.drmomma.org/2011/05/hivaids-rates-continue-to-climb-in.html

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28 Answers

34
Ed983a42344945b1ff70fd9597a23493

on January 20, 2012
at 05:30 PM

This is an issue near and dear to my heart...when I was pregnant with my second child, I knew without a sonogram that this child would be a boy. My family is Jewish, I was raised Jewish, but had zero intention of circumcising any child of mine. Some of my family had a HUGE problem with this decision, and called me often during my pregnancy to attempt to convince me to have a bris. Traditionally, a boy is circumcised when he is eight days old, so my step-mother, who took on the role of spokesperson in this matter, called me to yell at me every day from the day my son was born until day eight. She pretty much told me that I was dishonoring my entire lineage by not cutting part of his body off without his consent, and that she would all but disown me if I didn't. To be frank, I find the practice barbaric, and I know many men who wish this procedure had not been done to them. Studies show that sex is more pleasurable for women with intact partners, and modern cleanliness(i.e. running water) is plenty to care for an intact penis. The vast majority of my son's friends are intact, and while my husband is not intact, he wouldn't have wanted his son to be anything but...the whole idea of circumcision just to keep father and son looking the same is ridiculous...if girls have their breasts ironed at puberty should they do that torturous thing to their daughters ad infinitum so that they LOOK the same??? What about female circumcision? Should we keep that up through the generations so that daughters don't feel embarassed to NOT be missing a piece of their bodies????

Here's a link to one of my favorite articles about this issue:

http://mothering.com/health/the-case-against-circumcision

I apologize for an emotional rant, this is a very charged issue for me, and one I obviously feel passionately about...

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on January 20, 2012
at 07:54 PM

This is NSFW but I've convinced a few people with this fantastic post at Dr. Momma. Shows the difference between a cut and uncut penis in both infants and adults. The uncut one looks a lot healthier. It definetely proves the theory that cut "looks better" is false. http://www.drmomma.org/2011/08/intact-or-circumcised-significant.html

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on January 20, 2012
at 06:34 PM

We are a Jewish family that chose not to cut as well. Solidarity, sister.

Ed983a42344945b1ff70fd9597a23493

on January 20, 2012
at 05:38 PM

Alright, I take it back! ;)

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on January 20, 2012
at 07:53 PM

This is NSFW but I've convinced a few people with this fantastic post at Dr. Momma. Shows the difference between a cut and uncut penis in both infants and adults. The uncut one looks a lot healthier. It definetely proves the theory that cut "looks better" is false. http://www.drmomma.org/2011/08/intact-or-circumcised-significant.html

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on January 20, 2012
at 05:34 PM

No way. Don't you dare apologize. Bring it girl! Multiple great points in here.

28
Medium avatar

(4878)

on January 20, 2012
at 07:01 PM

As a woman who has experienced the difference...in an intimate manner...

I would NEVER circumcise any male children I might have.

Believe me, there is a BIG difference...um, functionally. It takes very little "work" for the uncircumcised male as the bodies are working as nature intended. No need for lube because there is a natural seal and this suction helps keep the G-Spot in tight contact with the head of the penis.

I have also found that uncircumcised men take a little more time... :)

For me, it is not so much about the son, but about the women in your son's life.

They'll thank you later.

Medium avatar

(4878)

on January 21, 2012
at 05:16 AM

Sorry if my tone sounded critical of circ'd guys. Don't take it personally. Talent is talent, from my experience as well ;)

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 21, 2012
at 02:45 AM

Sorry Marie ...can't access your PDF is that a journal? I'm gonna file this under YMMV depending on partners ;). But its cool, we all have our preferences in the opposite sex.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 21, 2012
at 05:15 AM

Didn't mean that to be so mean but no other variabel? REALLY? None? PLEASE!!! I've bean taught and or learned Many Many MANY variables that are physical! Thats not even to include the psychological componenents....come now....just recommend it as your own preference and not the pancea of cockdom and I could easily agree!

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on January 21, 2012
at 08:02 AM

But that said, I'd prefer my sons to have the choice.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 21, 2012
at 04:14 AM

Seems I have...married to one. Not to mention college and 4 years after.....So lubrication doesnt increase with each new orgasm???? Thought that happened as a point of "keeping up what youve made" ....seems YMMV is quite appropriate...but its cool either way. Do who you want were you want when you want!

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 21, 2012
at 05:36 AM

Get er DONE BABE!

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 21, 2012
at 04:52 AM

No other variable BS...End discussion. LOL.

Medium avatar

(4878)

on January 21, 2012
at 04:34 AM

Nope, no other variable. Sorry. The combination of my friends and my own experience is a large enough sample size for me to agree with the research literature. I would not be surprised if circs are the reason 70% of women in most research literature do not orgasm from penetration alone.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on January 20, 2012
at 09:12 PM

Hehe, yeah, I guess you should look for European or British men. I love the accents anyway, just not enough of them around :) However, it's interesting that I first learned about the issue from my earliest American boyfriends who were cut and would tell me how they wish they had been given the choice. I never though about it before then, but they definitely converted me. Most of them had issues that they believed were caused by circumcision and none of my Euro BFs ever had these issues so I tend to agree with them.

Medium avatar

(4878)

on January 21, 2012
at 03:33 AM

It's not a YMMV issue, it is a functional issue. You need to talk to women who've done the research ;)

6120c989fd5b69f42a0834b69b87955b

(24553)

on January 20, 2012
at 11:54 PM

It does serve a functional purpose, which I so rarely see mentioned in these debates, I'm glad you brought this up it is preferable for women's health as far as I'm concerned. As someone who suffered from chronic UTIs with a few circumcised boyfriends, the lack of friction on the urethra I finally encountered with an intact partner put a stop that.

Medium avatar

(4878)

on January 21, 2012
at 02:19 AM

JayJay, it isn't about making lube, it is about keeping what you've made: ^ O'Hara, K.; J. O'Hara (January 1999). "The effect of male circumcision on the sexual enjoyment of the female partner" (PDF). BJU International 83 (Supplement 1): 79–84. doi:10.1046/j.1464-410x.1999.0830s1079.x. PMID 10349418.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on January 21, 2012
at 07:59 AM

I deleted Jayjays rude comments here. People, please don't get emotional. It's clear there are many variables to being good in bed and obviously plenty of cut men are good in bed. Marie and I were both saying some things are EASIER because there is an automatic baseline of lubrication already present on the male. For cut men, they may need to use more foreplay or added lubrication from other sources. It's not a big deal. Let's not get emotional about it.

Medium avatar

(4878)

on January 20, 2012
at 08:08 PM

My college years would have been sooo much more fun had I gone to university in Europe!! And, Ms. M, I did have to *edit my response to tone down my opinion. In the US, and at my age, it is a needle in a haystack search. "Excuse me Sir, would you drop your trousers so that I may determine whether I wish to pursue a relationship"...

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 21, 2012
at 01:23 AM

Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm confused (I have a right to be I'm not a girl). So how does being circumcised or not reduce the need for "lube"....I mean I was taught to "warm the oven up before cookin"....your methods for doing this may vary....but if done properly there seems to be plenty of lube produced. This may get very anatomically correct or personal, but I am seriously curious.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on January 20, 2012
at 07:59 PM

Yes, every type of sex is so much harder (har har) without a foreskin.

E286e6ba6ef6c4c4a31a749e59aa57e1

(608)

on January 20, 2012
at 11:33 PM

Marie sounds like you've done some in depth study on all the ins and outs of it. Good luck winning the noble battle against circumcision.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 21, 2012
at 04:15 AM

Just saying...could be some variable missing besides the foreskin.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 21, 2012
at 04:51 AM

I've seen/heard the exact opposite...are they just "strokin" my ego lol? Just saying, your experience isn't what I have heard of event from non-circed friends.........many more variables than circed status...yes we use to discuss this and those other variables are a point of matter.

25
Medium avatar

(12379)

on January 20, 2012
at 09:29 PM

Ok - so here goes my neck out on the chopping block.

We had our son circumsized. I don't regret it. It was my husbands choice. I don't have the equipment, so I feel that I did not have as strong of a vote to cast. He did a lot of research, spoke to our maternity doctor, our family doctor and scads of friends, family and colleagues. He got reaction from both sides of the fence. We heard many stories and read many articles. We waffled from side to side for my pregnancy and then it was a conversation he had with 4 of his best friends that had him convinced. These four guys are all uncircumsized and they talked him into it. I do not know what happened during this conversation, and it is of a highly private nature, but my husband was convinced.

It was not a decision taken lightly. And Jack - ultimately it is your decision to make, and you should take your time. I may recommend taking some of your trusted buddies out for a frank conversation over some drinks to see what their thoughts are.

Everyone is definitely entitled to their own opinion, but please don't make rude comments on how I have mutilated my child and how he will hate me for his whole life.

EDIT: I am really quite disappointed with the amount of downvotes that I have received for my answer. I thought that Jack was wanting to hear both sides of this issue. I have not downvoted any answer here, and in fact I have upvoted a few that I thought were good answers. Just because I don't agree with what you are saying doesn't mean I don't think it is valid. As a parent I feel that other parents should be supportive and not judgemental. I too am disappointed with this forum, as I thought that it was about community - and to me a community is a collection of people and beliefs and a group who can celebrate not only similarities, but also differences.

Aead76beb5fc7b762a6b4ddc234f6051

(15239)

on January 21, 2012
at 03:06 AM

so well said, bree. we had almost exactly the same experience, and my husband made the final choice to have our son circumcised. there was a lot of searching, but it was one particular friend of ours who was not circumcised, then chose to have it done when he was 18. without going into the details of his story, it convinced us what the right choice was for our family. i respect everyones personal choices if they are made with love and care. it was a hard decision for us, precisely because we could empathize with both sides. but we are comfortable with it.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on September 07, 2013
at 01:28 AM

+1 for actually looking into it and coming to an informed decision regardless.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on January 20, 2012
at 11:23 PM

A frank conversation over some drinks? wow.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on January 20, 2012
at 11:09 PM

yeah, some people never think about and it just kind of gets done.

Medium avatar

(12379)

on January 22, 2012
at 02:34 AM

We live in Canada, the procedure was done for free and we were not talked into it by our doctor, and there was no selling of foreskin.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 21, 2012
at 01:18 AM

Thats my stance on most all interventions....if you at least made the effort to become informed and it was your CHOICE...then let the chips fall where they may...you did your best.

218f4d92627e4289cc81178fce5b4d00

on January 21, 2012
at 11:39 PM

Parents face many decisions, immunization is another biggy, I don't hate my parents, they didn't know any better and did what they thought best at the time. I pity them. In hindsight one of the very few things they got wrong. If they knew then what I know now then yeah, I think that feeling would change

Medium avatar

(12379)

on January 21, 2012
at 04:12 PM

No, I don't regret the decision that my husband made. As a parent, there are many tough choices that are made. We (my husband and I) do not make them on a whim or take them lightly. While I understand your sentiment, I really had to support my husband on this one.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on January 21, 2012
at 07:18 PM

FRM - I understand what you mean with your comment, but as Bree said, it's a tough choice for some people. They discussed it, mulled it over and chose with the best intention in mind. Like it or not, parents of baby boys are forced into making a "yes" or "no" and many factors on both sides make you wonder. Thanks for your contribution Bree. I don't think your son will hate you. I never hated my parents for it.

218f4d92627e4289cc81178fce5b4d00

on January 21, 2012
at 01:40 PM

you don't regret? it's not your body, it's not your penis, it's your son's. When he's older and informed to make his own decision then that should be his choice.

218f4d92627e4289cc81178fce5b4d00

on January 21, 2012
at 11:38 PM

Aside from religious practices, the only place in the world where it is routinely practiced seems to be the country where the doctors have ulterior motives for the removal of the foreskin, you don't think they will continue doing this long after most doctors have proved it pointless? You don’t buy what Monsanto say about GMO, you don't buy what the FDA say about cholesterol. Yet the factors in favour of circumcision offered by a system that has a vested interest in selling the foreskins, you buy that?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on January 21, 2012
at 07:16 PM

FRM - I understand what you mean with your comment, but jeez.. Bree said that it was a tough choice. They discussed it, mulled it over. Honestly it's not an easy choice. And like it or now, it is one that the parents of a baby boy are forced into making a "yes" or "no" on and many factors on both sides make you wonder. Thanks for your contribution Bree. I don't think your son will hate you. I never hated my parents for it.

2507b557331c8a674bc81197531e609a

(4994)

on January 27, 2012
at 02:13 PM

Bree, from the interaction with you and the answers and posts of yours I have read, I have no doubt whatsoever that the descision you came to would have been given much consideration and thought. Don't worry about the negativity, some people love to be judgemental and close minded. Surprising how often in this community given how much negativity and judgement we receive as a community anyway! You are a lovely person and a great mother and gave a well thought out "other side of the coin" answer which doesn't deserve any downvotes or negative comments.

Aead76beb5fc7b762a6b4ddc234f6051

(15239)

on January 26, 2012
at 10:31 PM

bree, im so sorry that you have been getting a backlash from the community here for your most personal choices. it really just reflects the maturity of the people doing the downvoting. i think it clearly says more about the people doing the downvoting and name calling than it does about you. i happen to know that youre a wonderful mother and any young man would be blessed to have, and its unfortunate that a few dogmatic people who are uncomfortable with ambiguity, and intolerant of views contrary to their own could make you feel badly about that. (((((bree)))))

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on January 26, 2012
at 10:17 PM

Bree - regarding your edit. I completely agree. I definitely wanted to hear both sides. I think you approached your explanation in how you came to your decision very well. I don't think you were insensitive or "barbaric" at all. I do think circumcision could be fairly labeled as barbaric, but that absolutely does not EVER mean that all parents who circumcise their boys are barbaric or cruel or do not care about the well being of their boy. If someone wants to come to that ridiculous conclusion, let them wallow in their own twisted mentality. Again, thanks for your contribution here Bree.

5b8cf203186c3cb7810f5046e0532be8

(166)

on April 17, 2013
at 04:41 PM

What I find weird is that you don't give any reason for the decision else than 'my husband decided it was the right thing'. In that essence it is not an answer.

24
26b7615ef542394102785a67a2786867

on January 20, 2012
at 05:57 PM

I think it's deeply immoral to sexually mutilate helpless infants. I would never do it to a son of mine.

Most men in the world are not circ'ed; the extremely high rate here in the USA is bizarre and troubling to me. There are also no proven health benefits or evidence that it is 'necessary' in the first world, and I think it's pretty telling how vanishingly few intact older boys/men ever choose to get circumcised.

Typical for men though, most are happy with what they have and don't waste time thinking about what life would be like if they had the foreskin they were born with, or vice versa. Beyond the initial pain for an infant boy, circ'ing isn't harmful either.

22
1c67bc28f4e44bbb8770b86df0463df3

on January 20, 2012
at 05:29 PM

I can tell you this, every man that is circumcised has held his thing in his hand..... and wondered.... what it would be like if he still had the skin he was born with? As nature intended? AND/OR, As god intended?

I'd reckon that a person is also less likely to get an ingrown toe nail without a toe. So, if we chopped off the little toes on babies feet when they were young and did this for many generations would people really be arguing about how it keeps them from getting ingrown toenails as adults? Or would we see chopping off pinky toes the same way everyone should see cutting off penis skin? As exactly what it is. Mutilation.

A03a8c971145965630283ff0b47484a0

(30)

on January 20, 2012
at 07:12 PM

I don't think Paleo2.0 is in the minority of circumcised men. I am male, circumcised and I have never "wondered what it would be like if [I] still had the skin I was born with." Also, you can find research on this topic that supports both sides.

Ed983a42344945b1ff70fd9597a23493

on January 20, 2012
at 05:31 PM

Nicely said....

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 20, 2012
at 09:08 PM

Nah...I'm male and circumcised and must say I've never wondered what if...but, as a dad I can understand Jack's angst about it.

7d64d3988de1b0e493aacf37843c5596

(2861)

on January 20, 2012
at 06:19 PM

I guess I'm in the minority, but I'm circumsised and perfectly happy with it. Actually glad I don't have a foreskin to worry about.

21
F9a49f6bdf1ce81a1dd47737da426fc8

(210)

on January 20, 2012
at 06:43 PM

Cutting off a body part because of the possibility that it might get or cause infection in the future is sort of a ridiculous argument. My children have already spread germs via their hands, mouths, noses and lungs. So- if we follow the circumcision logic- I should definitely chop off their hands, remove their lungs (so many germs exhaled and coughed out! And to anyone within a certain radius! Not just a potential sexual partner), plug up their noses etc... Not meaning to put anyone down who responded to the 'FEAR OF DISEASE' threat (it's a scary one for certain) but cutting off a part of the body because of future germ potential is , as i said, ridiculous. Really think about it. You're cutting off a part of the baby's body.

D8f58eba263277ec6119293137b85b02

(1071)

on January 20, 2012
at 09:37 PM

And some infants die due to infection from the operation anyway, which is a particularly tragic form of irony.

F9a49f6bdf1ce81a1dd47737da426fc8

(210)

on January 21, 2012
at 02:10 AM

I wondered about that. So sad. And unnecessary.

218f4d92627e4289cc81178fce5b4d00

on January 21, 2012
at 11:44 PM

Or the a cases where the penis was amputated due a botched circumcision. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

23cdea3bba94e17d2b58b525773d0c0a

(729)

on January 21, 2012
at 04:46 PM

OddBallin- I was waiting for someone to even bring that up- not just deaths resulting from infection, but also shock (when the baby doesn't cry or just seems to go to sleep- yes they still felt it, they're in shock) and blood loss. The reason most people don't hear about these deaths, which are not uncommon, is because they aren't filed under 'complications associated with circumcision'. Same goes for cesareans..... Tragic indeed.

19
9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on January 20, 2012
at 05:59 PM

If circumcision really does prevent STDs then I figure my sons can chose to have the procedure done when they are older and they have examined the literature themselves (or they could just avoid a lot of pain and use condoms). Since it's a permanent procedure, I don't feel comfortable making that decision for them, particularly considering the evidence that the foreskin serves a purpose.

I will say that if you chose not to cut, you need to find a pediatrician that is not ignorant and doesn't try to retract the foreskin (which I've heard about happening!). As for cleanliness or whatever, I lived in European countries where circumcision is rare and I can report that the people there are doing fine.

As far as whether or not this is an appropriate forum for this conversation, I would remind everyone to please discuss the costs/benefits of circumcision and not be too emotional about it. Clearly, if religion is a role in your decision, that that's a private matter between you and a higher power, so you have other considerations that may trump a scientific cost-benefit analysis.

Interestingly, a lot of hunter-gatherer tribes do circumcise, but they don't cut the entire foreskin. There is some debate whether the original Jewish form of circumcision was similar.

Also, the idea that the pain doesn't matter at that age has been increasingly called into question. In fact infant circumcision might have worse life-long effects compared to adult circumcision http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/10/magazine/10Fetal-t.html?pagewanted=all : "Anna Taddio, a pain specialist at the Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto, noticed more than a decade ago that the male infants she treated seemed more sensitive to pain than their female counterparts. This discrepancy, she reasoned, could be due to sex hormones, to anatomical differences ??? or to a painful event experienced by many boys: circumcision. In a study of 87 baby boys, Taddio found that those who had been circumcised soon after birth reacted more strongly and cried for longer than uncircumcised boys when they received a vaccination shot four to six months later. Among the circumcised boys, those who had received an analgesic cream at the time of the surgery cried less while getting the immunization than those circumcised without pain relief.

Taddio concluded that a single painful event could produce effects lasting for months, and perhaps much longer. ???When we do something to a baby that is not an expected part of its normal development, especially at a very early stage, we may actually change the way the nervous system is wired,??? she says. Early encounters with pain may alter the threshold at which pain is felt later on, making a child hypersensitive to pain ??? or, alternatively, dangerously indifferent to it. Lasting effects might also include emotional and behavioral problems like anxiety and depression, even learning disabilities (though these findings are far more tentative)."

So if you DO do circumcision, please insist on the analgesic cream.

Ed983a42344945b1ff70fd9597a23493

on January 20, 2012
at 07:12 PM

There are some modern Jews who do a kind of symbolic cut of the foreskin in lieu of a full ritualistic removal.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on January 20, 2012
at 06:47 PM

We seem to be managing alright in the UK with all our bits still attached.

E36cb992cf0a5eba8b97a359c15f38b3

(4347)

on January 20, 2012
at 09:58 PM

That last paragraph is one of the most important reasons we decided not to circumcise our son. I don't see the necessity of it in infancy; if he wants circumcision as an adult that's his choice. On a more personal, visceral note: I would never ever allow mutilation of my daughter without her consent (which at that point would mean she's an adult and can make her own decisions), so why would I allow it for my son? No way am I inflicting unnecessary pain on my children.

17
Ca1150430b1904659742ce2cad621c7d

(12540)

on January 20, 2012
at 05:20 PM

26 years ago, my husband and I made the choice not to circumcise any male children we had, after reviewing the evidence at hand, and after discussions with a number of professionals, from pediatricians to public health specialists to anthropologists. We've not had cause, with either of our boys, to regret that decision, nor have they -- and they, too, have decided that, when the time comes, they will not circumcise their sons.

"Back in the day", my husband and I had to fight to not inflict unnecessary harm on our sons. In fact, when our oldest boy was born, the hospital we were in actually proceeded to take him for circumcision WITHOUT our permission, and we had to go rescue him from surgery. Fortunately, one of the nurses on our floor was supportive of our decision and let us know that they'd taken him from the pediatric evaluation center DIRECTLY to surgery, rather than bringing him back to our room, in order to avoid having to discuss the attending physician's decision to circumcise despite our preferences. When asked about such a blatantly inappropriate action, the physician in question responded "Well, I'm more comfortable with circumcision, and I figured that once it was done, considering that you can't sue a military practitioner (at that time you couldn't), you'd come 'round to a sensible position." Can you IMAGINE the hubris?

Anyway, both our boys are happily intact, and their mates don't seem to have any problems with it, and they actually support the trend to non-circumcision.

E36cb992cf0a5eba8b97a359c15f38b3

(4347)

on January 20, 2012
at 09:59 PM

I was terrified that having my son at a military hospital would end in an unwanted circumcision. Luckily we didn't have any problems. (Granted, he's much younger than your sons and I think times have changed a bit.) That doctor would have gotten punched were I in that situation.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 20, 2012
at 05:44 PM

That physician may have come around to a sensible fist in his face....

16
Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on January 20, 2012
at 10:50 PM

My husband is English & intact.

Intercourse is much more pleasurable with him than the circumcised men I have known.

Nature designed us perfectly--why mess with it?

I applaud all the parents who respect their sons enough to let them choose when they are old enough.

15
E91fd339d760ed76cc72570a679ebf5a

(2369)

on January 20, 2012
at 06:14 PM

My baby boy arrives in 5 weeks and I am not circumcising. I have not been persuaded that there are any health benefits, and the procedure seems barbaric to me. Why would I put him through that when he can't give his consent?

14
218f4d92627e4289cc81178fce5b4d00

on January 21, 2012
at 03:21 PM

I was born in the 1970's in New Zealand, when the majority of boys were still cut. Thankfully now very very few New Zealand males get circumcised, it has been proven, a pointless, painful exercise to remove a highly specialized part of the most intimate part of the male body, one that serves a very useful purpose - protecting the glans of the penis. During WWII many soldiers from NZ were involved in the desert war of Northern Africa and the unhygienic conditions and all that sand, meant some men ran into trouble and for the longest time that was the evidence trotted out for circumcision - sand might get and irritate it like in the War...sigh.

Both my sons were born in Japan and there was no way I was going to do that to them and luckily it very rarely done here too. Thankfully, I personally can't remember the pain of it as I was newborn. I think anyone considering circumcision should be forced to watch a video of a baby boy screaming in agony as he gets cut. I saw one horrific one once and I felt absolutely sick to my stomach, I can handle a lot - blood and gore do not bother me at all, but that video made me angry. I Googled another one, not quite as traumatic as the one I originally recall, but still leaves me feeling very uncomfortable. Watch it. To circumcise or not circumcise

I believe and please correct me if I am wrong - that in the USA, hospitals make money from selling the foreskins: they are valuable and useful for skin grafts etc. The same system that pumps people full of radiation in the form of unnecessary revenue generating CT scans and the same system that makes billions from cholesterol drugs... the same damn system. Makes me angry.

I often wonder about - what if, as I am sure many cut men do. Sometimes seams in underpants irritate me for example. There are so many reasons to leave it alone, from vascular (rich in blood vessels that bring heat to the tissues), it protects the less vascular glans against frostbite, as Sir Ranulph Fiennes found on his epic transpolar walk to aiding in intercourse.

It's your sons choice, when his older if he wants it done, NOT the parents choice. It's HIS choice and don't even get me started on religion, must bite my tongue really hard there.

To be perfectly honest I am very disappointed that this place, of all places wouldn't be almost unanimously behind the natural way. I am glad the majority get it.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on January 21, 2012
at 05:03 PM

Yes,circumcision is a moneymaker: http://www.atcc.org/ATCCAdvancedCatalogSearch/ProductDetails/tabid/452/Default.aspx?ATCCNum=PCS-110-010&Template=primaryCells

9b4208ea76a3eaf64f94317fad5a34e4

(50)

on January 21, 2012
at 04:14 PM

A man without a foreskin can't know that he's missing a significant, sexually sensitive piece of real estate. If he did, he certainly wouldn't impose this practice on his, or anyone's, son.

9ce78c27a506960f3e4254727b024b75

(105)

on March 23, 2012
at 04:23 PM

The videos got me too! We didn't circumcise our newborn baby and I'm glad my husband didn't care since he is circumcised and most men want their sons to "look" like them..

14
3fe2bf1367970868757ddf7ed7c62531

(817)

on January 20, 2012
at 09:14 PM

we seem to be doing fine in Norway - it is not really common.. from what I understand you have to seek it out and have a specialized doc come in to preform the circumcision. Ever male I have talked to here thinks that it is so mean to take that choice from the (someday) man - if he wants it for religious or 'safety' reasons then he should make the choice when he can.

14
C835934198ffe146cb90eebc22c6b8d8

on January 20, 2012
at 06:11 PM

I have two daughter but my husband and I discussed when I got pregnant if we had a boy we would not circumcise. We both felt if you were born with a certain body part why cut it off just for the heck of it? With cleanliness and proper care there is no reason to mutilate baby boy. Just mho though:-)

11
23f79c5241be763ac583fc68d58ee02c

on January 20, 2012
at 07:31 PM

If you search pubmed you can find one study that showed circumcision effected the pain response in infants for months after the trauma. Children who were circumscised cried more and reacted more strongly to minor discomforts.

11
0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on January 20, 2012
at 06:28 PM

There does seem to be benefits in reducing STD transmission. However this is probably more of an issue if you are living in a country without access to good healthcare or preventative measures. It is also more of a public health measure as it will not prevent the individual contracting a disease but may potentially reduce the burden of disease in the population.

A large percentage of men in the US are circumcised and the good US citizens still seem to be managing to spread sexually transmitted infections. Numbers of circumcised men in the UK are very low and STD infection rates are, as far as I know, generally similar to the US.

I don't know of any other possible benefits.

I would much prefer to leave things as they are without a very good reason for doing otherwise.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on January 21, 2012
at 11:14 AM

Being British I was not aware that this was such a controversial issue :S

10
1a98a40ba8ffdc5aa28d1324d01c6c9f

(20378)

on January 20, 2012
at 05:28 PM

We did not circumcise our children.

9
Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on January 20, 2012
at 07:43 PM

I didn't mean any harm with the King Kong storyboard. I am disappointed because I put a lot of work into that and kept it vague on purpose. I thought my perspective was actually quite "Paleo" in nature, with the beast of our natural selves being represented by a beastly Gorilla and the "monster" being a dinosaur that ought to be extinct. That is how I see it. If I feel the practice is barbaric or even stupid, then I really don't care who I offend with my perspective on that. My intent is not to offend, but I am allowed to openly call any practice I want stupid (although I did not do that). And anyone can call me stupid for it or just downvote the question to convey their opinion.

For all the arguments I have seen about circumcision, the pros to do it do not stack up well against the reasons to avoid.

  • HIV and other infectious diseases: well, even if it is true, who are we to govern this with an unauthorized and irreversable surgical medical procedure? So it's a moot point right out of the gate

  • Cleanliness: it has been shown time and time again that this is a completely invalid point. Your eyeball could get infected too. Shall we remove our eyelids?

  • Appearance: similar to female pubic hair, this is a personal opinion, and as discussed in other threads, the only reason some people have an opinion that favors the tampering with the natural state is because they have been exposed to it. I bet the sight of a circumcised penis was thought of as unappealing when it wasn't so popular.

  • Sexual pleasure for both male and female: the favoring of cicumcision cannot even compete with leaving the foreskin intact when it comes to this point. The data against Circ heavily outweighs the data for it across the board.

  • Penile Cancer: Contrary to what some people have purported, leaving the foreskin intact will not raise your risk for penile cancer. Anyone who claims it will is betting on faulty data.

Fact is, I have no idea where adult humans got the notion that they had the right to chop part of a baby's genitals without the baby's permission. If it is religiously motivated, then that is very sad indeed. My question here was not framed in a way to discuss the religious aspects of this debate. It was framed with the medical and health consequences in mind. And since many people are emotional about it, I'd wager that some of their emotion will sneak its way into their responses. Hopefully we are not trying remove the emotionalism in the subjects we discuss here.

ADD: I'd like to clarify... that when I say "I don't know where adult humans got the notion...." what I mean is back when this concept first began. I am not directing that at today's generations. Even just several months ago... as in late 2011, I was leaning more toward circumcision. Why? Because "that's just what we do". Well.. that's what I thought anyway. I was not informed well. Same as when I used to eat a giant cinnamon roll from 7/11 with a tremendous amount of frosting on it before school every day and chase it with a huge hot chocolate as a kid and drink a 6 pack of Dr Pepper later that day. Why? Because I wanted to be obese and diabetic? Nope. It's because I was ignorant and uninformed. I just didn't know any better.

My story of King Kong and TRex was not supposed to represent the "people" making the decisions.. as in "the people who do the circumcision are monsters"... no no no. It was supposed to represent "the idea or practice of circumcision" as being the bad guy that I now feel sort of invaded its way into our culture. Now that we have taken the time to really understand what circumcision is and why it became so popular, we are better able to determine what we want to do with our sons.

Medium avatar

(4878)

on January 20, 2012
at 08:49 PM

Jack..really..do you want your son to "suck in the sack"? Sexual function is a GREAT reason NOT to circumcise. {The voice of experience, Marie.)

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 21, 2012
at 01:30 AM

So body mutilation that produces scar tissue is OK as long as the wound closes....got it :D

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19245)

on January 20, 2012
at 08:05 PM

Is cleanliness really used as an argument?

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 20, 2012
at 08:51 PM

I'm not for circumcision necessarily, but to put a bit of perspective there are a bunch of little girls out there getting their ears "mutilated" not entirely of their own free will either.

F9a49f6bdf1ce81a1dd47737da426fc8

(210)

on January 20, 2012
at 08:27 PM

Yes. Cleanliness is really used as an argument. The whole thing seems so obvious to me. It goes against nature and it's painful. You're cutting off part of a baby boy's penis because of possible future germs? And I really don't think humans are born with 'useless' body parts. There's a design there.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 21, 2012
at 01:35 AM

BTW I'm not actually arguing for circumcision. I'm just pointing out that there is a female counterpart to this where little girls frequently get their ears pierced at very young ages without actual informed consent with the assumption they are going to have it done later in life anyhow.....so you could argue any of these acts to be "barbaric"...pfft....without consent at a young age or with consent as a cultural/social pressure.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on January 20, 2012
at 08:58 PM

Marie. I agree with you. I think you misunderstood. Read my point again and you'll see :)

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on January 20, 2012
at 09:09 PM

Matthew since you are on the other side of the pond, you would be SHOCKED at some of the crap people talk about being uncut being dirty or gross. It reminds me of those old douching ads for women that told women that their natural smell was dirty and gross and their husbands wouldn't want them unless they put perfume and soap up there.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on January 20, 2012
at 09:27 PM

Why don't you leave the kid's genitals alone and let them decide what they want to do when they get older?

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 20, 2012
at 08:46 PM

South Park told the kids it would make Ikes winky look bigger :)

Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

(5198)

on January 20, 2012
at 08:04 PM

I think you'll find there were a lot of notions around back then which were a lot more offensive than not asking a baby's permission before acting on its behalf as a parent. Judging history by modern (or at least current) standards is a tiring and depressing business. That said, it's not a re-enactment is it. We should be able to look at the evidence rationally and make the best decisions with the information available today.

Ce41c230e8c2a4295db31aec3ef4b2ab

(32564)

on January 20, 2012
at 11:31 PM

JayJay~ Pierced ears can fully heal closed. Foreskins do not grow back. Logic fail.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 20, 2012
at 09:11 PM

Sexual function is decreased with circumcision??? I better tell little jayjay....he didn't get the memo

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on January 26, 2012
at 07:54 AM

Are you really comparing the earlobe, a part of an organ that doesn't have very many nerve endings at all, to a part of the penis?

6
50e94d7b6b01e6cb87889c6541adc90c

on January 21, 2012
at 05:18 PM

In germany circumcision is of no relevance. I think it's mainly in the case of phimosis that a circumcision is conducted. My younger brother was such a rare case I know of. Normally men are intact here.

6
D8f58eba263277ec6119293137b85b02

on January 20, 2012
at 10:27 PM

My mother explained what circumcision was when I was 11 or 12. I was appalled and said I would never do that to any kid of mine. We are not religious in the least, but my mother still believes many old wives' tales and started spewing some misinformation at me that even in 6th grade I could tell was unsound, but finally settled on, "You can't just decide not to do it; you have to respect the father's wishes as well."
I responded that I would not let anyone, regardless of their reasons or connection - biological, legal, or otherwise - mutilate my son's genitals anymore than I'd let them cut off his nose.
It was only later that I even did any research or asked men (both cut and uncut) how they felt about it, and new information and perspective only encouraged my opposition to the practice.

Edit: Forgot to mention that in light of the paleolithic lifestyle, it makes perfect sense to not circumcise, but I also feel that it makes perfect sense in any lifestyle - regardless of what you believe, where you think we come from, how you think we should live, et cetera, et cetera.

5
246ebf68e35743f62e5e187891b9cba0

(21430)

on January 21, 2012
at 04:42 PM

I am cut, I was against circumcision for my son, but my wife, her family, and my own family railed against the decision. Sad to say I was the "lone whisper in the shouting room", couldn't convince my wife who was already stressing over just about everything that mothers stress out about during the last few weeks of pregnancy and she decided it was better to go with "the safe bet" and get him circ'ed "like everyone else".

There is some regret now, in fact I'm fairly upset about my own, 33 years after the fact.

That being said, it hasn't had a substantial effect on my love life or my life in general (probably because "I don't know any better"). If the decision were to be posed to me today, maybe I would have pushed harder - but honestly I don't think it would have mattered.

One day this practice will be considered useless (and even damaging), and the people (like my parents and my in-laws) who throwback to this practice won't have a say. That day is getting closer and closer. Without their influence I'm sure my son would have remained intact.

One of the best things in the world is having a family to give you advice and help you with your new child. But one of the worst things in the world is having a family tie your hands on matters such as this... and it is something you must consider.

4
Dc6407193ba441d1438f6f0c06af872b

on January 20, 2012
at 05:59 PM

Long before I had ever thought about how evolution might help me approach diet, I did think that it made no intuitive sense to circumcise. I also figured that if my son really wanted to, he could chose to circumcize later. So, two reasons not to circumcise. (1) Some dicisions are easier to take back than others. (2) It's his choice.

But, let's face it, 99% of the time it makes approximately no difference, and even the other 1% has pros and cons. So it's not anything to stress too much about.

C296508bdbbbd8656f46e258fad81976

(170)

on January 27, 2012
at 02:49 AM

Amen to that...

3
149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

on January 27, 2012
at 08:14 AM

Thank God I have 2 girls and never had to debate this with my religious friends. Point 1 "My husband wants him to look the same." What father sits around and compares penises with his son? Takes father/son bonding too far and not on a scouting trip. The real answer is that if the son is not circ. he will have more than his father. Oedipus is the only reason to be the same. Point 2 If based solely on religious grounds then really be religious. Abraham started all this in his covenant with God. He was 99 years old and did it himself! Wanna be true? Wait till your 99 and keep a sharp knife handy. Eat a high fat diet to feed your brain and keep your hand steady. Perhaps God was joking just like the testing of Abraham in the faux sacrifice of Isaac. That God, what a tease.

2
Ff5d6fd79983af7b92bfab38b71823fb

(290)

on May 22, 2012
at 02:57 AM

I have two intact sons and no regrets. Why take away something you can't give back to them. My older son, 18, seems to be having a wonderful relationship with his girlfriend. It doesn't seem to be an issue. The younger, 9, just needs to be reminded to wash right. No biggie. If they want to be circ'd later, they will always have that perogative. But I doubt they will.

0
C620145ee7593d8b0f06a885dc140c29

on May 22, 2012
at 03:22 AM

if it is required for some of his medical conditions or is incapable to maintain a good hygiene daily, [ie to retract the foreskin and wash it] then go for it; otherwise, leave the choice to him :]

from the reactions here, it seems to be a great deal in America :intrigued:

0
5c5f9ebed22717239f3cb3aeadc1ba13

(20)

on January 20, 2012
at 09:31 PM

Not to circumcize.

-1
462ed57189bd2b8ffbe2a975186191f9

(492)

on January 26, 2012
at 07:36 AM

I'm seeing a lot of "nature built it that way for a reason" responses, and I respect and agree with this thought pattern. It even makes sense given the thought process behind the paleo diet and thus this website. I just feel it important to point out that nature is trial-and-error (evolution), not intelligent design. It seems like a lot of people are forgetting this. Just because we are designed one way doesn't necessarily mean that it is perfect that way, or ideal for this modern world. Evolution has left a lot of things there just because there was no strain on the species to change. I'm not saying that the foreskin isn't required; just that you can't base your entire argument on it being there as to not removing it.

Were I to think of it logically, I doubt you could even take an uncircumcised male who has had sex, circumcise him, prompt him to have sex again, and then compare the difference in pleasure as being a basis for comparison either. The number of nerve endings, while important, is far from the deciding factor in this regard. It is well known that the more a male masturbates (death grip) and looks at pornographic material the less sexual pleasure he receives despite the number of nerve endings in the penis remaining the same. The largest factor in sexual pleasure is the brain, and it is impossible to say if a child circumcised at birth were to be grow up to receive the same or less pleasure than a child who was not.

Not only this, but a lot of the top answers are opinions. One answer said that men who are uncircumcised were more pleasurable for the woman due to G-Spot stimulation. That uncircumcised men required no lube. I've been with many women, and spoken to even more, and they all had different opinions on the matter. Some had no preference, some preferred one over the other, and some disliked one or the other for various reasons. One woman hated G-Spot stimulation. Another got no pleasure out of penetration, circumcised or not. The vagina is "self-lubricating" for a reason; sometimes things work as they should (turned on and wet), sometimes not - but I'm pretty sure that some form of lubrication is always required regardless of penis intact-ness. Again, these are not well suited for pro vs con.

I don't have any opinion one way or the other as to what a parent does with their child's penis. Very few adult men who aren't circumcised would ever do it for anything short of medical reasons in the long run. I truly respect everyone on this forum, it just seems to me that a lot of the time people here tend to forget that we aren't cavemen anymore. Just because we lived that way once doesn't mean living that way is still ideal and that every decision we make should be the caveman way or the highway. I understand the idea that we should strive to be as caveman-like as possible that has developed here, and I even agree with it up to a point, but that is far from the best reasons for doing or not doing something.

Do it, or don't, if you, your spouse, your family, or your community think you should or shouldn't. Most importantly, don't let it affect the relationships you've developed negatively. I, personally, don't think there is any other pro vs con more important than this.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on January 26, 2012
at 07:51 AM

Oh the irony..you are criticizing people for having just opinions when this is exactly that. There are plenty of studies cited in the answers here showing circumcision affects male pleasure, that pain in infancy can cause lifelong damage, and that circumcision might prevent some STDs. If I did what my community I grew up with wanted me to I'd be married with 7 children and not writing on this forum.

-1
D7cc4049bef85d1979efbd853dc07c8e

(4029)

on January 21, 2012
at 04:17 AM

Just wondering, for those against circumcision because they alter what nature intended, are you equally against vasectomies because they alter what nature intended?

400b249032e4c829c4e802436833ea3b

(0)

on January 21, 2012
at 04:39 AM

Vasectomies are a decision that an adult can decide on. Big difference! Babies v's adults!

-3
E286e6ba6ef6c4c4a31a749e59aa57e1

on January 20, 2012
at 04:54 PM

This is the point that I do agree with modern medicine do to the current prevalence of HIV infection that Im for it. This is especially true for male to female vaginal sex (only one Im concerned about).

"Male circumcision has been associated with a lower risk for HIV infection in international observational studies and in three randomized controlled clinical trials."

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factsheets/circumcision.htm

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 20, 2012
at 05:52 PM

My kids got circumcised....doh, I kinda lost by the wife telling me how nice my penis looks....ah well, we agreed on the no HepB stab on day one.

E286e6ba6ef6c4c4a31a749e59aa57e1

(608)

on January 20, 2012
at 05:10 PM

This is Exactly what Im saying. Because even if hes not then his partner could be. This is just my opinion, and most guys I know that are cut dont seem to worry about it, or care. The only guys I see crying about being cut are the ones that arent. You asked for my vote, thats my vote move on.

3846a3b61bc9051e4baebdef62e58c52

(18635)

on January 20, 2012
at 05:48 PM

"we hack things around here"....on a circumcision thread.....by the ani-circumcision guy....hehehe.....My immaturity keeps me sane.

Ed92809f18ca70e360768b4f2c9c9df6

(356)

on January 20, 2012
at 07:35 PM

the whole "might as well cut off other body parts" argument fails because there is a difference in functionality

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on January 20, 2012
at 05:01 PM

so what you are saying is... it's good to nip the tip of a baby boy because it could help his chances of not getting an infectious disease if he chooses to be sexually promiscuous when he grows up?

1da74185531d6d4c7182fb9ee417f97f

(10904)

on January 20, 2012
at 04:59 PM

Bad science. Lots of good links and cites on these websites. http://www.drmomma.org/2010/04/doctors-reject-circumcision-as-hiv.html http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/info/HIVStatement.html http://www.drmomma.org/2011/05/hivaids-rates-continue-to-climb-in.html

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on January 20, 2012
at 07:55 PM

jim bob, the foreskin has many many many functionalities. search, and you shall find. or revist this thread in time, and you may find it posted in an answer here.

D5d982a898721d3392c85f951d0bf0aa

(2417)

on January 20, 2012
at 05:08 PM

Who said anything about promiscuity? (I'm not pro C!)

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on January 20, 2012
at 05:30 PM

Cory - Well I am circumcised, and I am now leaning much more heavily toward not. And yes I did ask for your vote. I appreciate everyone's input, including yours. But, as you know, we hack things here. If you put bad science on the board, it's gonna get hacked.

57317857d0212cf20edcc4c26199648c

on January 20, 2012
at 05:37 PM

I agree, you would probably should cut off their hands as it will limit other risky behaviors they could engage in. In fact in may be safer to simply cut off their arms. We probably also want to amputate the legs as they are less likely to be mobile and put them self in harms way. You may also want to consider cutting their head off to prevent them from thinking of doing anything risky as well.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on January 20, 2012
at 05:53 PM

haha. very funny JayJay. I would replace the word immaturity with the word humor.

149af6e19a06675614dfbb6838a7d7c0

(3202)

on January 27, 2012
at 08:03 AM

Thats only because no woman wants to have sex with them. Less opportunity=less risk.

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