25

votes

Hack Jack Kronk's VAP test results!

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created July 08, 2011 at 6:31 PM

Ok folks. This may very well be the most important question I ever ask on PaleoHacks. I've seen many people on here post their cholesterol numbers. From Travis to Todd to Kamal to Melissa and many others. Well, now it's time for Jack Kronk. I need a hack, big time.

I'm sorry to report that I am very unhappy with the results of my VAP test from last week. I was hoping for something more "Paleo-ish". Instead, I am staring straight down the pipe at needing to make some major changes.

I DO NOT want to make this post. I like the notion much better that you all just think everything is going peachy with Jack Kronk and that I am this picture of health. In many ways, that's true. I am more fit than ever, strong as a bull, and happy with many aspects of my health. But these results have me very concerned. One of the toughest things for a person to do is humbly ask for help, especially when it appears that the help is needed as a result of bad decisions. I will say this... if it is bad decisions on my part, it's certainly not intentional. It would be more correct to blame ignorance, hence the importance of my honesty here. I sat here and thought to myself... should I try to make some changes first and improve the numbers and then report back my success to show everyone how brilliant I am? But then I immediately realized that that's what gets people into more trouble. No. I decided instead to bite the bullet... to be completely transparent.

I will post the results and discuss my thoughts below. Ok, enough prepping. On to the numbers:

Oct 2010: Standard Lipid Panel

(after 2 months VLC - less than 50g per day)

alt text

July 2011: VAP

(switched to higher carb Dec 2010 - probably around 150-200g per day from starch and fruits)

alt text

Since Oct of 2010, I have skyrocketed my Trigs and my HDL is just sitting there like a lazy bum. My LDL went down quite a bit, and my TC went down a little, but what's the deal with my HDL/Trig ratio?

I eat about a dozen eggs per week, and while that isn't breaking any records, it's also not absent from my diet by any means when you consider that I'm getting about 4-5 dozen per month. Also, I cook those eggs in coconut oil, every time. But that's about my only intake of coconut oil. For a couple months, I was eating 2 tablespoons per day, but I stopped doing that back in January.

Also, I have seriously upped my intake of fruit lately. I've been very vocal about this on PaleoHacks too. I love me some bananas and cream. I think I average at least 1 large banana per day now. Sometimes I have 2 because I figured it may help me add muscle from the starch. Is that what's causing my trigs to go up?

And what the heck is up with the pattern B and the small VLDL? This is the thing I am MOST concerned about. The only thing I can think of is my stubborn HDL and rising Trigs. I wish very much that I had gotten the VAP done back in Oct 2010 as well so I can compare since my Trigs were only 85 then.

I know that some folks would go into freak out mode over this. Understandably so. But I not like "OMG Paleo is killing me! I'm going Vegan!". Um, no. I know too much to think like that. I can identify some key areas that I may need to change and I'm not about to toss out everything I've learned just because I don't like my numbers.

So I'm open folks. You all know me. You know I'm serious and I will do whatever I need to.

Some other key elements to my diet that may be important:

  • Very little gluten. My only indulgences are the occassional pizza and beer. But my intake of both of those has plummeted to way below average over the last 10 months. I probably eat pizza about twice a month and have beer about 1 pint every 2 weeks or so.

  • Very little PUFA - I avoid all vegetable oils whenever I can. I never cook in veggie oils, of course. I do eat almonds and pecans regularly. This is basically my only intentional source of food that contains some O6 PUFA.

  • I will often eat a banana sliced up with cream and a coffee with cream for breakfast. I started doing this about 3-4 times per week maybe 4-5 months ago. I really enjoy it, but I will dump this habbit faster than Chuck Norris if I need to.

  • Raw honey with nut butter is one of my favorite little snacks, although I haven't had raw honey in over a month and a half so I'm not sure if that played a big role here.

So what do you think? Could this be due to a certain genetic predisposition? If so, how do I test for that?

Should I supplement with fish oil to get more omega3?

Drop the bananas completely?

Supplement Niacin like Dr Davis recommends to rasie HDL?

Increase eggs and coconut oil?

Drop the starchy tubers?

Add more starchy tubers?

Eat more salads and veggies?

Personally, I suspect that my increase in fructose consumption has caused my Trigs to go up, which is why I target the bananas. But would eating ONLY whole fruits like berries and bananas and figs do that? The only juice I get is from Kombucha, and it's very little at 5% content.

Doc wants me on meds of course. Here was my response this morning:


Thanks for these documents. I was expecting to see the full range of other measurements on the VAP like VitD levels, CRP, etc. I suppose the trade off is getting a better picture of what kind of cholesterol I have.

To be frank, I am not pleased with these results at all. I am very concerned about the VLDL, low HDL, low protective HDL, high Trigs, and certainly the small pattern B LDL. That sounds like a bad recipe in many respects and I will not accept this.

Without question, I will be making some significant adjustments to my dietary choices now that I know how my body is processing what I am eating. The adjustments begin today. Right now.

At this time, I am not interested in cholesterol meds. I understand the implications, and the importance. I would like to retest for the VAP in about 3 months to monitor this more closely for a time so I can get a clear picture of what's really going on.

I am very serious about correcting this, and I will do whatever is necessary to ensure that I have good cardiovascular health.


Thanks for your help everyone!

EDIT: Some people are asking what I think about cholesterol and the lipid hypothesis.

I'd like to put my viewpoint out there so everyone knows where I stand on this.

I believe the diet-heart hypothesis is faulty, and I believe the cholesterol lipid hypothesis is VERY faulty.

Specifically regarding lipid numbers, I should have noted in my question that I come at this from a very non-conventional perspective and I have a fairly advanced understanding of what this all means. I say 'fairly' because I won't even begin to pretend to understand it from a bio-mechanical perspective like, say... Chris Masterjohn does. But I know what to look for beyond just TC and LDL, which for some reasons, are still the typical things that docs freak out about.

I believe total cholesterol number is almost worthless. TC should not be calculated the way it is by conventional standards. It makes no sense. If you ask me what I think 'healthy' cholesterol numbers are, I would say they should have the following points:

  • High HDL: 60+ (and closer to 80+ is even better)

  • Low Trigs: <100, (and <80 is even better)

  • Low VLDL: fuzzy, but should probably be less than 20

  • LDL should be large, buoyant pattern A dominance over small, dense pattern B

  • VitD should be at least 35 ng/mL

  • Low C-Reactive Protein levels

Even then all we can do with this information is speculate, since these are only markers for good cardiovascular health. I don't care much about the total LDL number because I think the calculation of it is faulty. I also think the measured LDL number is misunderstood still and that even an LDL of 200+ may not be a bad thing if all other areas listed above are present.

So why I am concerned? Because I miserably failed the top 4 important points and didn't get the last 2 so those are still unknown.

Hopefully that helps clarify where I stand with cholesterol.

----EDIT---- It has been noted that I was told fasting wasn't necessary. Most of the research I am seeing backs this up, yet everybody on here agreed that I should have fasted. Look at this page for the Atherotech VAP testing (one of many). It says: "Because we are directly measuring LDL-C, fasting is not required."

http://www.atherotech.com/vapcholtest/

Is that true for LDL-C (calculated), but not true for triglycerides?

If fasting is still required to get an accurate measure of fasting trigs, than they are making a big mistake telling people they don't need to fast.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on December 18, 2011
at 08:01 PM

Hi Nirgal - See my latest entry from a month ago: http://paleohacks.com/questions/79187/hack-jack-kronks-latest-lab-results-part-3-nov-19-2011. Also, I just answered your post.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on August 06, 2011
at 08:16 PM

Your case continues to help people here at AHS Jack.......several people today at lunch sat down with me to pick my brain about your VAP. So glad you decided to do this. You have helped many!

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on July 24, 2011
at 12:20 PM

And I am now layering blogs jack k. I posted the how I use a VAP blog as a follow up for you to get how I interpret you labs. Instead of hacking you personally I'd rather show you how i think about what numbers really mean and why.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on July 24, 2011
at 01:28 AM

BTW, I can take the beating up. I'm long past worrying about such things.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on July 24, 2011
at 01:28 AM

Thanks, Rose! We know it's true! BTW, I just noticed that I posted this in the wrong thread, so I just copied it over to - "Paleo isn’t low carb anymore… but it kind of was" Oh well...

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on July 24, 2011
at 01:13 AM

Ed, I know you're going to get beat up a lot for this post, but I want to say thank you. I don't have a dog in the "What is Paleo" fight; I don't care whatcha call me; Paleo, ZC, whatever. If folks want to eat "safe" starches and tons of fruit, that's cool with me. I even make those things for my husband, who I love dearly. But he's growing a little (ahem) gut at age 52, and I'm pretty sure a lot of the young bucks here are going to find themselves doing the same in a few years. Meanwhile, eating as close to ZC as possible, I weigh less today than I did when I was 21. And am healthier, too.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on July 13, 2011
at 12:03 PM

Thanks, mem. I guess they just bring out banana hostililty in me and make me say these things.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 12, 2011
at 06:00 AM

regarding "heterozygous familial hypercholesterolemia or poor thyroid function." (what a mouthful btw) My grandmother on my mother's side is 75. She has been type 1 diabetic for decades. My grandfather on my father's side is 80. He is battling type 2 diabetes and so did my father, who passed at 53 in his sleep for undetermined reasons (but the autopsy showed 90% blockage in one of his main arteries). What kind of research/additional testing can I do to determine how my genetics may play a role here?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 12, 2011
at 05:55 AM

When I posted this: http://paleohacks.com/questions/48074/most-original-influential-helpful-major-person-group-in-the-paleo-primal-health-c/48144#48144 , I didn't really think it would ever happen. And now, only days later, I have a 'complex situation' and here you are, breaking it down. Thank you very much Chris and Melissa. And a head nod to Aravind as well.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 12, 2011
at 05:47 AM

This thread is about more than just me Grok.

Cc93847bfa820f0f2da654060b401fa5

(746)

on July 12, 2011
at 05:28 AM

Great Chris! Also interesting Niacin info. Grr. Pissed I forgot to comment about the fasting. Got distracted by other comments.

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on July 12, 2011
at 03:45 AM

Thank you Melissa & Chris.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on July 12, 2011
at 01:51 AM

Thanks to Chris and Melissa for the very thoughtful response.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on July 12, 2011
at 01:50 AM

Argh. Much could have been saved by knowing that the VAP was not done *fasted.* Somebody's head needs to roll wherever that was instructed. Should Jack want, they should be willing to re-draw the lab at no cost to him/ins if he has it.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on July 12, 2011
at 01:41 AM

+1 @ edrice. Somehow I missed your response on a previous read of the thread. Love the whole bit. Your experience is your experience, with *your* numbers to back it up. And to boot, it made me LMAO. If you aren't writing somewhere, you should be. Bananas are for me, in the same radioactive world...

Cc93847bfa820f0f2da654060b401fa5

(746)

on July 12, 2011
at 01:12 AM

I live in Hawaii. Good % of the caucasians here are just as bad as Doug and 15-20 years younger. Doug lives closer to equatorial sun (Florida, Costa Rica, Hawaii) is older than Mark Sisson, and doesn't look any different if you'd like compare diet/lifestyle gurus physical appearances. Are you really arguing that heavy sun exposure doesn't damage skin? LMAO. I'll pretend I didn't read that, just like the glucose comment above. Sorry for the topic hijack & weenie measuring paleohackers. Isn't this thread about Jack?

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on July 12, 2011
at 01:12 AM

How would fasting not be relevant? 10-12 hours of fasting before a lipid test is standard. I always fast for 12 hours. Actually, if you exercise right before drawing blood, your LDL and trigs could go lower, not sure about the particle size. Good for life insurance.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on July 12, 2011
at 12:46 AM

@Jack - another link for you regarding the question of Niacin http://perfecthealthdiet.com/?p=3204

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on July 12, 2011
at 12:45 AM

Awesome response!

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on July 11, 2011
at 11:02 PM

I know the typical 811 response to why DG has wrinkly deformed skin it doesn't hold up one bit. I live in LA and see plenty of people his age who are more dark from the sun yet they do not have his wrinkly deformed skin. These people eat bullshit and are very physically active(You can tell by there physique). If his diet was so blaster he wouldn't look like leather face.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on July 11, 2011
at 11:02 PM

I know the typical 811 response to why DG has wrinkly deformed skin it doesn't hold up one bit. I live in LA and see plenty of people his age who are more dark from the skin yet they do not have his wrinkly deformed skin. These people eat bullshit and are very physically active(You can tell by there physique). If his diet was so blaster he wouldn't look like leather face.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on July 11, 2011
at 11:01 PM

I know the typical 811 response to why DG has wrinkly deformed skin it doesn't hold up one bit. I live in LA and see plenty of people his age who are more dark from the skin yet they do not have his wrinkly deformed skin. These people eat bullshit and are very physically active(You can tell by there physique). If his diet was so blaster he wouldn't look leather face.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on July 11, 2011
at 10:48 PM

I don't know enough about the test vis-a-vis a typical lipid test. I just assumed it was necessary. This would be reason enough for me to re-do the test just to confirm

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on July 11, 2011
at 10:47 PM

I don't know enough about the test vis-a-vis a typically lipid test. I just assumed it was necessary. This would be reason enough for me to re-do the test just to confirm.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 10:36 PM

They told me that it was unnecessary. I know that it could affect trig levels in the blood, and probably LDL as well, but could that have an effect on the *type* of LDL? I am more of the belief that if having small dense LDL is more of a problem that has built up not just from one or two meals, but from a longer period of time.

Cc93847bfa820f0f2da654060b401fa5

(746)

on July 11, 2011
at 10:06 PM

@Jack, You clearly like your carbs (who doesn't) and it's a good idea to have them in your diet for a whole host of reasons. You've already tried the high-fat, so why not try the low-fat? It's still paleo. Plenty of people out there (Barnard http://bit.ly/oGFPJR) (Esselstyn http://bit.ly/nBZuUA) treating these kinds of problems on low-fat. Whole food low-fat diets can be very delicious and satisfying. Take this from a guy who was never satisfied. Highly unlikely you won't receive the results you desire.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on July 11, 2011
at 09:56 PM

@Jack - you didn't fast for the VAP???

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on July 11, 2011
at 09:50 PM

@Melissa - Really glad to see you and Chris getting engaged in the discussion. Thanks!

Medium avatar

(39821)

on July 11, 2011
at 09:45 PM

fasting should definitely be required for a VAP test...

Cc93847bfa820f0f2da654060b401fa5

(746)

on July 11, 2011
at 09:28 PM

"saggy, wrinkly deformed skin" I've always wondered why primates have squinty wrinkled faces. The evil fructose. Couldn't be oxidative stress from Graham's ultra exercise (practically superhuman) and white skin in an equatorial environment. "Paleo" Ultraman Jonas Colting got chewed up on MDA one time for looking old. DR looks much younger that your average 30 something. People are too infatuated with physical appearance as an indicator of health. Look to a typical gym for examples. Great bodies, but dying from the inside out.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 08:30 PM

Kombucha is a very new thing for me. I drank half of one bottle the night before and another half before the test. I drank several in the days leading up to the test. Basically had 1 about 4 days in a row. My weight before? I was 163 lbs on SAD. Dropped to 148 low carbing for about 5 months. http://paleohacks.com/questions/7058/share-your-paleo-before-and-after/28493#28493. Settled into Lacto-Paleo in Dec 2010.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 08:26 PM

For the night of June 30 before the VAP, my wife experimented with white rice options. We had baked salmon and she made white rice pasta and biscuits with white rice flour, eggs, vanilla, coconut oil, sea salt, stevia. I had 1 biscuit late that night after dinner. Pics of both can be seen here: http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u230/CLSD/IMG_0197-1000.jpg . http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u230/CLSD/IMG_0199-1000.jpg

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 08:23 PM

For the night of June 30 before the VAP, my wife experimented with white rice options. We had baked salmon and she made white rice pasta and white rice biscuits with rice, eggs, vanilla, coconut oil, sea salt, stevia. I had 1 biscuit late that night after dinner. Pics of both can be seen here: http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u230/CLSD/VAP2011.jpg . http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u230/CLSD/IMG_0199-1000.jpg

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 08:20 PM

My lipid panel was on Oct 14, 2010, so I pulled Oct 13, 2010 from my food log, back when I was tracking everything and logging carbs eaten. My total carbs for that day was 46. Dinner the night before can be seen here: http://s169.photobucket.com/albums/u230/CLSD/?action=view¤t=Oct13.jpg.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on July 11, 2011
at 08:20 PM

also what was your weight like before that? have you lost a lot of weight?

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on July 11, 2011
at 08:14 PM

how often do you drink kombucha?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 08:03 PM

Weight stable? Yes, very. I have been between 153-158 for about 6 months now. I am great shape and continue to lift heavy 3x per week, which usually includes a post workout drink of 26g whey protein with a half a banana thrown in, sometimes a handful of blueberries, and always a dollop of heavy cream (about 2-3 tablespoons).

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 07:59 PM

For the VAP, no fasting was required. That day, I had to go to court to fight a stupid traffic ticket, and was wandering around El Cajon starving, so I got a breakfast burrito at 8am. Eggs, Bacon, Potatoes, and yes even the flour tortilla. First flour tortilla for me since 2010. The VAP was at 2pm. At around noon, I drank a GTs Kombucha and had about 5 pecans with some cheese. Didn't really eat lunch before the test so after the snack it was only about 2 hours until the test.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 07:56 PM

Melissa/Chris - Thanks for the questions. For the lipid panel - I did that at 830am, after fasting through sleep since 10 pm the previous night and not eating breakfast.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 07:51 PM

Brilliant Ed. This thread is amazing. Thanks for your contribution. Melissa can eat lots of bananas and keep 32 trigs. Maybe you and I can't. It seems that the old saying that each person is different is ringing so loud and clear here. I wish I was more like Melissa. I LOVE bananas. But like you, if I determine that they do me wrong, I'll ditch 'em with the quickness.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on July 11, 2011
at 07:44 PM

Its based on a article I read by cordain, I found this one http://www.cathletics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3900 but I'm not sure its the same one as I remember him giving specific estimates of paleo hunter gatherers.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on July 11, 2011
at 06:58 PM

@Jack - for you and me :-) http://paleohacks.com/questions/50895/are-you-a-conditional-or-unconditional-cholesterol-skeptic#axzz1RoKqhkaB

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 06:47 PM

Thanks Paul - I hadn't seen that thread. PaleoHacks has been ACTIVE!!! Thanks again.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 06:37 PM

cliff - how in the world can you know that? WH - I easily walk 2+ miles per day total. if walking is cardio then fine. but i don't do focused cardio exercise for the purpose of exercise. Ben - that's interesting. we are pretty close in several ways. but wow zero fruit huh?

36b7a2776d028dc8d5743e2e56ece34d

(812)

on July 11, 2011
at 04:53 PM

Can you quantify "all over the place" in miles? Walking is cardio imo.

47a42b6be94caf700fce9509e38bb6a4

(9647)

on July 11, 2011
at 04:25 PM

Jack, this may have cleared the board before you saw it: http://paleohacks.com/questions/50633/paleo-3-0-thoughts-on-dr-ks-new-post Not stalking you, I promise, just following this one with interest.

Fe87afa634afe26f4f6fd956abe0b46a

(565)

on July 11, 2011
at 02:55 PM

@Cliff- I'm trying to dig that link up. In the meantime, here is one where he speaks similarly: "Thus, the fossil and ethnographic data suggests that humans evolved on a diet that was primarily animal based and consequently low to moderate in carbohydrate, high in protein and low to moderate in fat. This is in contrast to the low fat, high carbohydrate, plant based diet which is almost universally recommended by modern day nutritionists." http://www.mercola.com/article/carbohydrates/paleolithic_diet.htm

Fe87afa634afe26f4f6fd956abe0b46a

(565)

on July 11, 2011
at 02:47 PM

I agree with you. I'm not saying that Paleo HAS to be low-carb. There are certainly HG (and current for that matter) populations that have done just fine on high carbs. With modern man, it's obviously about food choices. The multitude of choices is probably what gets us into trouble. I don't think we know enough about the effects of combining those choices yet, which is why we get perplexed with a situation like Jack's. I also think Jack did a service by posting his results, to promote this discussion.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on July 11, 2011
at 02:05 PM

@Jack - I am going to post a new question on this because I have a lot to say based on your response and don't want to dilute the message here. Probably won't get to it until tonight.

072fd69647b0e765bb4b11532569f16d

(3717)

on July 11, 2011
at 01:40 PM

Downvote from me too. We all have questions and need an occasional hack. Same for Jack. If you don't have something constructive to add, why post anything at all?

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7304)

on July 11, 2011
at 12:48 PM

Yes I've seen those actually. However none of the people in those studies was jack kronk. I think it might be beneficial to switch to macadamias and get retested. Like I said, it can't hurt.

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7304)

on July 11, 2011
at 12:44 PM

Excuse the typos, iPhone autocorrect...

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7304)

on July 11, 2011
at 12:43 PM

This is a really interesting answer. My gut response was alsothat some bananas weren't the real problem here. Re: gelatin ray peat has talked quite a bit about too much muscle meat being inflammatory but collagen/gelatin/glycine counteracting this effect boer ape this is something else for jack to think about.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on July 11, 2011
at 12:24 PM

Paleo man walked 8-20 miles a day. something to think about.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on July 11, 2011
at 12:22 PM

Snacking frequently can cause havoc on your body in my expierence

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on July 11, 2011
at 12:21 PM

people new to paleo always do this. whatever, its cool. the fact is that eating the food choices that we do with this whole paleo thing is only that: food choices. Make up your macros based upon goals and activity levels. Paleo is not low-carb, period. Not relative to this or that or anything else; low vs high carb is simply a whole nother conversation, completely unrelated to paleo food choices.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on July 11, 2011
at 12:19 PM

man jack, the more i'm reading this thread of yours the more i'm thinking of myself. I'm male, 31, 6', only lift with the big lifts, no cardio (other than walking), etc. I think my overall profile is similar to yours. Although I eat no fruit. Zero. Just mentioning.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on July 11, 2011
at 12:17 PM

wozza, why put something like that? You've got a lot of posts, and I thought I remembered you as a helpful person. Downvote from me.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on July 11, 2011
at 11:49 AM

You see how high durianriders blood sugar go's even though bananas are only half glucose? I wonder what happens to all that fructose??? Probably deposits in all his tissues and oxidizes leading to saggy, wrinkly deformed skin ALA Doug graham. WHo would eat bananas when you could just eat more tubers and get what your body actually needs, glucose.....

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on July 11, 2011
at 11:44 AM

Pete its entirely possible for HG's to eat very high carb diets. We have no idea what they all did for the most part though. I've never seen cordain state that, d you have a link?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 08:44 AM

when i say that may be true in my case, i mean that we are still trying to figure that out. that is the purpose of this thread. and this 'deathhacks' community is responding like the champions that i know they are. people doing diligent research. doctors writings blog articles. people caring. you can call that whatever you want. i call it valuable.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 08:40 AM

this answer deserves about 300 downvotes. i don't understand that link that Todd provided, but it's pretty weird if you wrote that stuff about yourself. you've asked 10 q, answers 96 times, and have almost 500 votes. what in the world are you doing here if you think "When your time is up, it's up." Close your account. You don't need to be here trying to help anyone. Just let them all die.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 08:34 AM

do you mean non-weight bearing? i walk all over the place in san diego daily. and i always walk fast. other than that, my exercise is weight training. i don't do cardio.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 08:32 AM

very interesting. Jack Kronk eating often? snacking between meals? guilty, guilty, and then more guilty. So guilty, you wouldn't even believe it. but see, these are the types of things that we are not born knowing. i'm not saying i'm completely ready to just pin my problem on snacking, but i will definitely give this some thought. when i get home, i want to eat something snacky right away, even if i'm gonna have dinner in an hour. and after dinner, i want something snacky. it's always good, whole, healthy foods, but still it may be detrimental regardless of that.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 08:21 AM

@Grok. thanks for your thoughts. but you don't have to "troll" here. keep commenting. build a reputation here with whatever opinion / facts you'd like to represent. the users of paleohacks will respond however they will respond. if you feel you have valuable information / insight, then great. but be ready for this community to challenge you right back and put you square in your place if you spout absurdities. "The presense of too much fat". Well, that may be true in my particular case, but many peopel thrive on a higher fat diet than carb. so please feel free to expand on what you mean.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 08:12 AM

Pete - I think you make a couple good points here for sure. One thing though is the difference in *types* of carbs. i think fructose can be much more problematic than a potato when combined with sat fats. as for the gluten, i am not even slightly worried about that. i have eaten loads and loads of bread all my life up until 10 months ago. i have removed >95% of the gluten/bread in my life. i don't think that <5% is now suddenly causing me inflammation.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 08:05 AM

fantastic! i just got back and haven't seen it yet but i will certainly go read it!

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 08:02 AM

hi aravind. yes i have read both of those. given my labs, i immediately wondered if i have some genetics working against me. i think diet-heart and lipid hypothesis are very faulty, just as chris m suggests.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 07:58 AM

how old am I? it says on my profile that I am 31, which is true. and that's good to hear about the bananas. i have 3 bananas on my counter and they are just sitting there rotting over the last few days. lol.

Cc93847bfa820f0f2da654060b401fa5

(746)

on July 11, 2011
at 05:44 AM

Low-carb in many HG's diets is hyper-carb in the eyes of much of the paleo world.

Cc93847bfa820f0f2da654060b401fa5

(746)

on July 11, 2011
at 05:42 AM

"If it's not the increase in fructose, then what is it? The presence of too much fat.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on July 11, 2011
at 04:22 AM

BTW I eat tons of bananas and a decent amt of fat and my trigly are 32. Yeah 32.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on July 11, 2011
at 04:21 AM

how old are you?

50637dfd7dc7a7e811d82283f4f5fd10

(5838)

on July 11, 2011
at 03:47 AM

[link text][1] [1]: http://wozzasoft.net/blog/?p=90

C2502365891cbcc8af2d1cf1d7b0e9fc

(2437)

on July 11, 2011
at 03:16 AM

I'm serious. What is the issue?

50637dfd7dc7a7e811d82283f4f5fd10

(5838)

on July 11, 2011
at 02:49 AM

Wow. A closed mouth hinders no foot.

36b7a2776d028dc8d5743e2e56ece34d

(812)

on July 10, 2011
at 11:39 PM

specifically walking

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on July 10, 2011
at 04:41 AM

Andy, we should adopt a measured position with regard to cholesterol. It's multifactorial. The total number is meaningless. The components mean something but are more useful as markers of low-carbing and/or infection status. I don't really believe in the lipid theory.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on July 10, 2011
at 04:24 AM

@jack - one more for you - http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2011/03/genes-ldl-cholesterol-levels-and.html

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on July 10, 2011
at 03:54 AM

Fructose is a neolithic devil because it makes an inordinate amount of of hepatic Ach .....and hepatic Ach is precisely what acetylates our chaperones and histones tha turn on all the bad switches that make TG's and sdLDL and low HDL and a Type B pattern. This is basic biochemistry and epigenetics at work. And Jack......I wrote an entire piece about you today in fact. I think this issue you raise could help thousands of people who really dont understand true dietary context and paleolithic diets

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on July 10, 2011
at 03:39 AM

@Jack - I assume since you follow Chris M, you may have read this, but just in case and my question is unclear - http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2011/03/how-conflating-lipid-hypothesis-with.html

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on July 10, 2011
at 03:39 AM

@Jack - http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2011/03/how-conflating-lipid-hypothesis-with.html

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on July 10, 2011
at 03:38 AM

I assume you've read the following, but just in case - http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2011/03/how-conflating-lipid-hypothesis-with.html

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on July 10, 2011
at 03:36 AM

@Jack - I see you've gotten a lot of input in the last 24 hours. I have spent a fair bit of today thinking about my 2 cents on this and started typing a novel. Then I stopped....before we go any further, what is your view of the Diet-Heart and Lipid Hypotheses. People can give you their opinion until they and you are blue in the face, but to me this is the first key question you need to answer. Prior to this post, and based on your past posts, I would have guessed you were a cholesterol skeptic. However, now I have to ask, were you a skeptic of the Diet-Heart AND Lipid Hypothesis or just one?

Fe87afa634afe26f4f6fd956abe0b46a

(565)

on July 10, 2011
at 12:49 AM

Take it easy guys, when I said low-carb I was speaking relatively. Would you not agree that our ancestors ate substantially less carbs than we do with the modern western diet? Cordain stated that one of the main reasons the Paleo diet is effective at alleviating a lot of our modern ailments is due to the fact that it's naturally low carb. If we're talking about average caloric distribution prior to the agricultural revolution, calling it low carb wouldn't be nonsense. And it certainly wouldn't be "beyond nonsense". Whatever that is.

E34fbfa1bca9ae970c9c7313bf9de9f8

(1436)

on July 09, 2011
at 10:28 PM

If you read the literature you'll find that fructose does increase triglyceride levels and increase small dense LDL. That's one thing that Jack's changed in his diet in the last 12 months.. If it's not the increase in fructose, then what is it?

Cc93847bfa820f0f2da654060b401fa5

(746)

on July 09, 2011
at 08:12 PM

Beyond nonsense.

Cc93847bfa820f0f2da654060b401fa5

(746)

on July 09, 2011
at 07:55 PM

Keep telling yourself that. Carbs aren't the problem, only a piece of the puzzle. Those above, about anyone not on deathhacks, and pretty much most of scientific world understand this. Comparing processed sugar to bananas... I think I'll start comparing margarine to virgin coconut oil. P.S. Never read Ray Peat. Don't know anything about him other than he's a metabolism hacker [?] from Matt Stone buzz.

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on July 09, 2011
at 06:44 PM

I have to agree with ben61820 on this one.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on July 09, 2011
at 06:24 PM

Just finished and Im going to load it.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on July 09, 2011
at 05:05 PM

This is a really interesting thread. Thanks, jack. All the best of course. I think like others have mentioned that the higher one's general carb-intake goes perhaps one should lessen, or at least moderate, their fat-intake. Not quite either or but some scale like that. Looking forward to updates.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on July 09, 2011
at 05:01 PM

By nature it is LC? nonsense. Absolute nonsense. It is not by nature low carb.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on July 09, 2011
at 03:52 PM

Yah, sugar is good, huh? Only Ray Peat and the youtube video agree with you.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on July 09, 2011
at 02:49 PM

Jack you have motivated a blog topic about this

1f8384be58052b6b96f476e475abdc74

(2231)

on July 09, 2011
at 02:38 PM

i didnt mean only weight gain, i meant the fructose is only bad in the context of eating to many calories which IME has not much to do with weight gain....hence fatty liver and elevated trigs. i know plenty of thin people with fatty livers.

Cc93847bfa820f0f2da654060b401fa5

(746)

on July 09, 2011
at 09:42 AM

Yes I'm a troll. As a former low-carber this bulls#it sugar information needs to perish.

Cc93847bfa820f0f2da654060b401fa5

(746)

on July 09, 2011
at 09:40 AM

14 blended bananas. A blood sugar high of 127ml/dl. 90 minutes later 90mg/dl. Clog yourself up with fat, blood sugar levels stay elevated with added carbs. Lower-fat problem solved.

Cc93847bfa820f0f2da654060b401fa5

(746)

on July 09, 2011
at 09:32 AM

Bananas spike blood sugar http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSJ_rhJuxYE

Cc93847bfa820f0f2da654060b401fa5

(746)

on July 09, 2011
at 09:24 AM

Except for maybe me, this guy eat more bananas than anyone. His trigs are under 80. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z-ikN_F1Z8

Cc93847bfa820f0f2da654060b401fa5

(746)

on July 09, 2011
at 09:17 AM

Jack, it's not the bananas. I mean this in the most sincere way... save your health and run from paleohacked advice.

Cc93847bfa820f0f2da654060b401fa5

(746)

on July 09, 2011
at 09:04 AM

Listen people, this isn't rocket science. High-fat/low-carb or Low-fat/high-carb. Since low-carb sucks, that leaves one option. Have a nice day :)

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 09, 2011
at 05:04 AM

by the way... I will be away from the internet virtually all weekend at a business conference so I just don't want anyone thinking I croaked from the fructose if I don't respond to comments. lol.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 09, 2011
at 05:02 AM

NP - One large 8 inch banana is approx 17g sugar and 30g carbs, most of which would be fructose. 1.5 bananas would be about 25g of sugar and 45g of carbs per day just from bananas. Then 4 dried figs is about 20g sugar / 26g carbs. That's about 65g of sugar just from those 2 items. That doesn't count if I have a handful of blueberries or raw honey. I can see how the sugar can add up pretty quickly. If I removed bananas completely, and cut back on all other fructose containing items, I bet I can get my trigs back down well below 100 again, which will likely produce a stronger pattern A LDL type.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on July 09, 2011
at 04:19 AM

Ok, my daughter is asleep. Guess there have been many good posts since I last checked in. @Jack - the beauty of this forum is that strangers become friends and care about the well being of others they have never met. How wonderful is that???

50637dfd7dc7a7e811d82283f4f5fd10

(5838)

on July 09, 2011
at 04:05 AM

I agree. I do this on higher starch days, but more for the leangaines type approach. But I have noticed when I wasnt worried about leanness and added fat with the extra carbs, it is a lot harder on my system.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on July 09, 2011
at 03:45 AM

Quilt: that's a fair point, but it seems to me that TGs have the ability to decrease HDL without decreasing LDL. If he corrects his fructose intake and his TGs as a result, his HDL will rise back up but his LDL will stay or continue to rise. If he wants to attack both numbers at once, he'd need to cut fructose and cream. If he wanted to for some reason aggressively address the LDL, cutting out the cream and replacing the coconut oil with lard or something would be the most effective. I'm not recommending this, however as it shouldn't even be on the radar yet, if at all.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on July 09, 2011
at 03:42 AM

@ Jack: "Part of Mitch’s therapeutic program was elimination of wheat, cornstarch, and sugars, the three most flagrant triggers of small LDL particles..." http://www.trackyourplaque.com/blog/2010/02/diabetes-from-fruit.html

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on July 09, 2011
at 03:01 AM

I don't think fruit should be villifed either. But in a given individual, perhaps there is acritical level for consumption...and maybe it is made more critical when combining high sugar fruits, like bananas, with heavy cream, on a daily basis. Perhaps moderating more would make a difference as well. 2 days instead of 7...?

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on July 09, 2011
at 02:51 AM

@mallory:Fructose/sugar overconsumption does NOT necessarily lead to weight gain. Thin people develop fatty liver disease. Thin women also develop PCOS, but a version which is completely different than that found in the overweight/obese. Thin people who do not have the metabolic derangement of the obese may nevertheless develop metabolic syndrome. Thin people may have triglycerides up the wazoo and low HDLs.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on July 09, 2011
at 02:45 AM

Take a look at the fructose percentages in the rawfoodsos link.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on July 09, 2011
at 02:43 AM

http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/fruit-table/wild-cultiv-fruit-1a.shtml http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/05/31/wild-and-ancient-fruit/ http://www.sugarstacks.com/fruits.htm

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 09, 2011
at 02:37 AM

Yes I agree with that Quilt. I do get it. But still I am surprised by the small dense pattern B LDL dominance. I eat a lot of foods rich in saturated and monounsaturated fats. I eat loads of eggs, butter, cream, coconut oil, gf beef, and steer pretty clear of O6 oils, toxic ingredients, and wheat. I would expect, by now, my HDL to come up significantly from a measly 40 and my LDL to be large buoyant, even with the banana fructose. I know what I choose to eat every day, and it's leagues better than so many people.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on July 09, 2011
at 02:30 AM

Travis if coconut oil was playing a role his HDL would be a lot higher. These labs are a reflection of what his liver is facing. Ach overload from fructose

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on July 09, 2011
at 02:27 AM

Precisely why I'm staying out of this. Mallory's response. I enjoy jack k a lot. I think he knows precisely why.....and he is looking for feedback. The problem with feedback it has to be thought out and not based upon convention or prevailing community thought. Sometimes cutting across the grain is precisely what we need. I know jack gets that.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 09, 2011
at 02:26 AM

mallory - nope. just a few pounds of muscle over the last 6 months or so. I am as fit now as I've ever been in my life, which is part of the confusion for me. As Travis says, I don't think I'm that far off with my approach, but my numbers are pretty far off the mark.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 09, 2011
at 02:24 AM

I really don't think I'm doing very much wrong. Probably just one or two key things. That's interesting what you mention about VitC and strawberries. I do get a decent amount of strawberries but low compared to the banana volume.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 09, 2011
at 02:22 AM

I mean, honestly, we are talking about eating some bananas and unsulfured 100% pure figs and blueberries in the context of a very rich, whole foods diet. So I definitely did not expect these results, regardless of what the Quilt says as far as me being surprised or whatever. So anyway if I had to peg it on one thing, I would have to agree about the fructose. If 100% of fructose goes through the liver, and of that up to 30% gets pushed back out in to the blood as triglycerides, then it's plausible that I am just eating a bad combination of high fat with the cream and too much banana fructose.

34a367e60db77270bd7096dc04270fdc

(4171)

on July 09, 2011
at 02:20 AM

All vegetarians and fruititarians (never heard of these) have perfect cholesterol levels? I find that hard to believe. I've got some good friends who are vegetarian but they don't eat only veggies, they eat chips and crackers and popcorn etc. I haven't seen their lipid panels but I bet it's not perfect.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 09, 2011
at 02:18 AM

Thanks Travis. I was really looking forward to you chiming in here. The most major change in my diet in the last 8 months since my lipid panel is the bananas. From August to November, I virtually had zero bananas and very little fruit. I was VLC to low carb for a good 4 months, then added back starch in December and bananas at the same time. In the last 3-4 months, I really settled in to eating about 1 to one and a half bananas per day. I wondered if it would be a problem but since I was gaining any flab, I figured there was a fairly good chance that everything was ok with that.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on July 09, 2011
at 02:10 AM

@Mallory -- we can see what Jack's levels were before; he's put them right up at the top of this question. And while we can't see the details of his LDL before, we can see his triglycerides, and they were clearly better when he was VLC. What happens in a given individual's body is the ultimate *in vivo* test. And on the flip side, what happens in the bodies of people who aren't Jack Kronk is not very relevant to Jack Kronk.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on July 09, 2011
at 01:40 AM

Well, I am interested in all sides of this issue as I am out of the spectrum of "normal" as well. Yes, it is great that Jack posted this so an in depth discussion can be had. Ultimately, I hope that a suggestion/course of action he can take to avoid those horrible meds would be great. I am very open minded - I don't know squat.

1f8384be58052b6b96f476e475abdc74

(2231)

on July 09, 2011
at 01:31 AM

fructose would only apply if he was overeating to begin with. jack, were you gaining weight recently?

1f8384be58052b6b96f476e475abdc74

(2231)

on July 09, 2011
at 01:28 AM

and also, maybe it is a protein or fat source in jacks diet causing this. i am sick of people singling out CARBS as the all cause of every problem in the world

1f8384be58052b6b96f476e475abdc74

(2231)

on July 09, 2011
at 01:27 AM

sorry but this MISadvocation of paleo is the reason the dietary world is turning against it and having bad results. 150 carbs DESTROY TG???? no, please tell a vegtarian that, or a fruititarian...they all have perfect cholesterol levels

1f8384be58052b6b96f476e475abdc74

(2231)

on July 09, 2011
at 01:25 AM

WTF, WHERE did you come up with that???? paleo is paleo... im sorry but not EVERYONE has your past and obesity problem you once had and treating everyone as if they did and have the SAME disfunctioning stats you once had is just wrong. are the majority of people leptin resistant..? yes prolly but this has SO LITLLE to do with PALEO carb sources.

1f8384be58052b6b96f476e475abdc74

(2231)

on July 09, 2011
at 01:25 AM

sorry but i am disagreeing. i think cholesterol and trigs are a reflection of inflammation in the body and is the result of the body trying to deal with infection/disease etc. what were jacks readings BEFORE? what runs in jacks genetics...kidney/heart/liver/colon issues will all effect how he takes to a diet. 150 NOT ADVOCATED!??!?!

50637dfd7dc7a7e811d82283f4f5fd10

(5838)

on July 09, 2011
at 01:04 AM

The above comments kind of time into my statement regarding "if not done right, it could be more dangerous" basically, if the foundation isn't completely sound, it's more or less playing with fire.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on July 09, 2011
at 12:59 AM

Surprising. Not surpassing. Damn spell check

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on July 09, 2011
at 12:57 AM

Meredith.....I won't go into it here because this site is incredibly polarizing.......but as someone who sees thousands of labs a year and understands diet in context mr kronk labs are not surpassing to me. And quite frankly I'm shocked he is shocked. Maybe it's denial? Jack appears to be a great guy and I hope he figures it out with his n-1 but that many carbs destroy TG, LDL particle type and lower your HDL. All are present here and the numbers are not just a little off they are majorly off. 150 gms of carbs sustained is not advocated here at all. Love that he did this Show he is cool

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on July 09, 2011
at 12:24 AM

Like Rose, as I got ready to make the above comment, before I saw hers, I thought "better put on my flame retardant suit," lol!

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on July 09, 2011
at 12:23 AM

Jack, now you're cookin' with the ^^^ response. Escalating # of bags of sugar with lots of high fat, especially, @ the same time. My bet is that if you cut the bags of sugar, you'll see a robust response in triglycerides.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 09, 2011
at 12:10 AM

To clarify what I was saying above, I think the carbs might be ok, since I get 99% of my carbs from pure, whole food sources like starch and fruits. No juice. Virtually zero refined sugar and very little bread. (Most days zero grain bread of any kind). But where I may be running into trouble is spiking my insulin with the carbs at the same time as consuming a bunch of fat via cream, butter, etc. Almost as if my body is telling me... "look dude, choose one or the other."

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 09, 2011
at 12:04 AM

Thanks Rose. I suspect you may be right, but it's so iffy. I may have to make drastic changes and retest in like 2 months to see what happens. Also, it may be the carbs combined with high fat, like what todd eluded to. I was on SAD for my whole life, but when you switch to a fairly high fat diet, you gotta be careful to make sure that all is operating well and that your individual body will know what to do with that. I eat a lot of cream and butter too. The butter consumption has tailed off a bit, but I am going to need to identify how to correct the trend and then stick to what works for me.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on July 08, 2011
at 11:57 PM

Jack, I'll probably get booed off PH for saying this, but when you were VLC your TG numbers were a lot better (lacking detail on the LDL, I don't want to make any assumptions there). I know everyone's high on the shiny new "carbs don't do this" thesis, but I'll be the Taubesian stick-in-the-mud and risk my hide by suggesting, ever so quietly, that maybe it's the carbs. Especially the fruit. Okay, let the flogging begin. :)

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on July 08, 2011
at 11:52 PM

Quilt - but what if our bodies get our carbs endogenously? I've read that this happens - through muscle bone via stress hormones. Wouldn't carbs attenuate this? Maybe different sources maybe? Or am I totally off?

50637dfd7dc7a7e811d82283f4f5fd10

(5838)

on July 08, 2011
at 11:22 PM

I know what you've done to deserve it, and that is give advice and share quality, thought out perspectives. As such, you've helped grow this community in a positive direction. Well deserved, good sir, and +1 to Aravind. It's material like this that makes me love this site. Great people.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 08, 2011
at 11:22 PM

Hi ouis. That's very interesting. Most people have the opposite story. Did you ever get teh type of LDL you had tested? it does make a big difference. It is beginning to become more clear that LDL itself may not necessarily be a bad thing. The reason for my concern is that my test showed a dominance of small dense LDL, which is likely more prone to oxidation and therefore cardiovascular issues. Welcome to PaleoHacks.

50637dfd7dc7a7e811d82283f4f5fd10

(5838)

on July 08, 2011
at 11:18 PM

I had the exact opposite effect.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 08, 2011
at 11:13 PM

my goodness Aravind. I am quite honored by your kind words. i don't know what i have done to deserve that, but thank you very much, friend. you probably already know that I think Chris is the master at understanding all this.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on July 08, 2011
at 11:08 PM

Big bingo!,!!!!

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on July 08, 2011
at 10:04 PM

I sure hope it's not the bananas, because I have been eating a ton of fruit during these hot summer months.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on July 08, 2011
at 09:55 PM

Also, gelatin (bone broth etc) are said to help lower trigs - ???

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7304)

on July 08, 2011
at 09:53 PM

I think that its a definitely a possibility. Your lipid panel is not looking too great and that could be a helpful change. I can sympathize though bc I'm a sucker for some almond pecan butter. So good, but i only have it very rarely.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on July 08, 2011
at 09:41 PM

SO I think if it like this: the cholesterol and trigs are protective, your body is trying to get the things it needs (glucose prolly) in the face of vlc. It's going to get it whether you feed it the glucose or not. Just a huge guess, and totally counterintuitive, but maybe spacing out your fruit/starch throughout the day to knock down the adrenaline/cortisol which may be making your trigs go up?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 08, 2011
at 09:39 PM

Josh - thanks for the follow up? Can you see why I think your answer is a little flippant or at the very least lackadaisical? If you had these numbers come through on a VAP test (which is much more telling than a standard lipid panel by the way), what would you do? Nothing? Don't change anything and test again in a month?

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on July 08, 2011
at 09:38 PM

First, I have read that supplemental D can really make HDL go up and fast - http://www.trackyourplaque.com/blog/2011/01/the-five-most-powerful-heart-disease-prevention-strategies.html - but you are at optimum. As for chronic stress - that depends on your environment. Things that we don't even register as stress - like too much light at night - and the kicker VLC. For me going VLC combined with an exercise regimen makes my stress hormones skyrocket. I too am a laid back laugh-a-lot kinda gal, but some weights, a bit of metcon and too few carbs = bitch (which I attribute to stress hormones).

D5cde8031564f905260ce9aa7a1f5e2c

(1170)

on July 08, 2011
at 09:33 PM

As for pecans (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11533266) - "Both diets improved the lipid profile; however, the pecan-enriched diet decreased both serum total and LDL cholesterol by 0.32 mmol/L (6.7 and 10.4%, respectively) and triglyceride by 0.14, while increasing HDL cholesterol by 0.06 mmol/L (2.5 mg/dL)." I doubt the almonds and pecans are hurting your HDL.

D5cde8031564f905260ce9aa7a1f5e2c

(1170)

on July 08, 2011
at 09:33 PM

A meta-analysis from 2009 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19394473) - "Almond consumption may decrease total cholesterol and does not significantly affect LDL or HDL cholesterol, triglycerides, or the LDL:HDL ratio. The current body of randomized trials does not support the ingestion of almonds solely for their lipid modifying effects."

66974b2cb291799dcd661b7dec99a9e2

(11121)

on July 08, 2011
at 09:31 PM

Yup - get the same tests done once a month for 4 or 6 months, the variation can be quite interesting, or use different labs. Never take things at face value. 12 patients of my doctor all got together and did this last year - the results almost made our doctor faint as he thought we we all nuts. That same doctor is now doing research and questioning a lot about what he thought was normal.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 08, 2011
at 09:25 PM

what causes chronic elevation of cortisol? stress? i stress about as much as ben stein so i don't really think i have cortisol issues, although what you say sounds plausible. as for my vit D, it was 44 in oct (as shown in the lipid panel). i'd bet it's at least that much now. i've been getting plenty of sun lately.

1f8384be58052b6b96f476e475abdc74

(2231)

on July 08, 2011
at 09:19 PM

loving this comment :)

1f8384be58052b6b96f476e475abdc74

(2231)

on July 08, 2011
at 09:19 PM

unless he is an absolute metabolically deranged person, carbs are NOT CAUSING THIS IMO....especially if they are primal ones. a banana is not the reason his trig's are high....nor do i think occasionally having some NAD's are either.

50637dfd7dc7a7e811d82283f4f5fd10

(5838)

on July 08, 2011
at 09:08 PM

I to find it hard to vilify fruit, because, it is a whole natural food. My main reason for avoidance is purely to make sure my metabolism is sound first, and then reintroduce. Sorry that I don't have much more info, but I wish you the best and hope others can provide some useful insight.

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0

(3946)

on July 08, 2011
at 09:04 PM

Doesn't matter how you slice it, abnormal "B" pattern LDL is definitely something to worry about.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 08, 2011
at 09:00 PM

Josh - Did you read my post? I am not worrying about "lipid panel numbers". I know all about the classic misunderstandings that people see when analyzing these numbers. I have quite an in depth understanding of what much of these readings represent because I have read gobs and gobs of write ups from all of our favorite gurus. Did you see that my results came back with pattern B LDL, lowish HDL, and highish VLDL? These are not good signs.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 08, 2011
at 08:18 PM

mari - you really think that the pecans/almonds could be blocking my HDL from going up? I so don't want this to be true.

215d3126214343a5760316f195a06b97

on July 08, 2011
at 08:06 PM

Please nobody say it's the bananas!!!

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 08, 2011
at 07:54 PM

I haven't yet but I will. I have read all of Kresser's articles on Cholesterol. I may have read almost all of CMast's as well. I know this stuff stone cold. But somehow, knowing it is not manifesting the best results in my reality. Then again, I know where I can tighten up some areas. I am just very surprised that I need to.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on July 08, 2011
at 07:50 PM

Have many article links / comments to send to you but can't since I am at work right now. Will try do so tonight. Did you listen to Chris Masterjohn on the recent Healthy Skeptic podcast. My memory is failing me a bit but he discussed this in the context of cholesterol skeptics. You might want to listen to it if you haven't already.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 08, 2011
at 07:44 PM

Aravind - my CRP was only .33 back in Oct. I guess the VAP test doesn't check for that? I mentioned that in my email reply to the Doctor. I may go in an get a standard lipid panel just to see my current VitD and CRP and stuff to compare. The things I am most concerned about more than anything else is the pattern B LDL, high VLDL and low HDL. I am not happy with that combo at all.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on July 08, 2011
at 07:30 PM

Jack - what is HS CRP? This would be an important piece of the puzzle to answer. Also, I just posted a different answer to another question here - http://paleohacks.com/questions/50312/interpreting-my-lipid-panel-results#axzz1RXlP4d5E

B61f6513a155cd874b42efdad55312f6

(231)

on July 08, 2011
at 07:17 PM

I have cheat days too, and I eat about a dozen eggs a week, but my LDL and triglycerides are much lower, though I think I started out lower. The trend is downward, maybe it's just going to take time for him to get his down?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 08, 2011
at 07:17 PM

i also wonder if I am more genetically prone to mishandle fats or something. If others are, maybe me too?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 08, 2011
at 07:16 PM

i think i'm more guilty of fruit than gluten. i don't have much pizza and beer. i rarely ever eat bread. the fruit could be a culprit. i just think it's surprising for sure. and "Paleo with cheats being more dangerous than one might think." that could be true, but very few people eat 100% perfect 100% of the time. if you followed me around everyday, you'd see that I eat "Paleo" at least 90% of the time. But since that term is so loose, I am going to need to truly define what my body needs to order to correct this trend.

  • Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

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23 Answers

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15
D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on July 08, 2011
at 10:57 PM

Jack,

I am Mr Mom all night and won't be able to get more than 10 minutes, let alone the many more minutes that I want to devote to this. You and I have been trading posts since the PaNu forum days and I feel that I "owe" you a thoughtful response. However bandwidth this evening notwithstanding, my initial thought was "how do I provide a substantive, thoughtful, referenced response to address the points I want to make to a guy that probably knows more about Paleo than I do. I still intend to do that to the best of my abilities ASAP.

However I am going to take a different approach that will perhaps be more valuable for you and all...

@ Melissa McEwen -

You don't know me from Adam, but I am making a personal request to you. Can you please ask Chris Masterjohn to address this post from Jack? I only know Jack through this forum and intially from PaNu's defunct forum. But to me, Jack is a pillar in our community here and I think many would agree. He has given this community a lot and deserves a lot when he needs it...like now based the concern he has expressed.

I believe Chris is the go-to guy on this topic and I am not blowing smoke up anyone's ass in making this comment. Moreover, with the recent about-faces in the Paleo community by some regarding fats, carbs, etc, I think there is a fair bit of concern recently about the shifting landscape and what it means to the assumptions that have gotten us here, including that of the Lipid Hypothesis.

I don't think this is just an important question for Jack, but for all of us here-to-date cholesterol skeptics. I have joined the bandwagon many times in chanting "screw the Lipid Hypothesis". Perhaps Jack has too. Additionally I have discounted n=1 issues like many. However n=1 is all that matters when you are faced with data that places you at the crossroads of accepting or rejecting conventional wisdom. It is easy to be a skeptic when life is great and you are "strong as a bull". But when potential adversity hits, not so much...

Anyway, I think the insights Chris would have to offer would be so incredibly significant for all of us, like Jack, that have been all-in with the tenets of Paleo. I hope you will at least consider this request. It is made with the utmost of humility and respect for his opinion and your thoughtfulness to at least consider asking him.

Warm regards,

Aravind

50637dfd7dc7a7e811d82283f4f5fd10

(5838)

on July 08, 2011
at 11:22 PM

I know what you've done to deserve it, and that is give advice and share quality, thought out perspectives. As such, you've helped grow this community in a positive direction. Well deserved, good sir, and +1 to Aravind. It's material like this that makes me love this site. Great people.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on July 09, 2011
at 04:19 AM

Ok, my daughter is asleep. Guess there have been many good posts since I last checked in. @Jack - the beauty of this forum is that strangers become friends and care about the well being of others they have never met. How wonderful is that???

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 08, 2011
at 11:13 PM

my goodness Aravind. I am quite honored by your kind words. i don't know what i have done to deserve that, but thank you very much, friend. you probably already know that I think Chris is the master at understanding all this.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on July 10, 2011
at 03:36 AM

@Jack - I see you've gotten a lot of input in the last 24 hours. I have spent a fair bit of today thinking about my 2 cents on this and started typing a novel. Then I stopped....before we go any further, what is your view of the Diet-Heart and Lipid Hypotheses. People can give you their opinion until they and you are blue in the face, but to me this is the first key question you need to answer. Prior to this post, and based on your past posts, I would have guessed you were a cholesterol skeptic. However, now I have to ask, were you a skeptic of the Diet-Heart AND Lipid Hypothesis or just one?

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on July 10, 2011
at 03:39 AM

@Jack - http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2011/03/how-conflating-lipid-hypothesis-with.html

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on July 10, 2011
at 03:39 AM

@Jack - I assume since you follow Chris M, you may have read this, but just in case and my question is unclear - http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2011/03/how-conflating-lipid-hypothesis-with.html

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 08:02 AM

hi aravind. yes i have read both of those. given my labs, i immediately wondered if i have some genetics working against me. i think diet-heart and lipid hypothesis are very faulty, just as chris m suggests.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on July 10, 2011
at 03:38 AM

I assume you've read the following, but just in case - http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2011/03/how-conflating-lipid-hypothesis-with.html

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on July 10, 2011
at 04:24 AM

@jack - one more for you - http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2011/03/genes-ldl-cholesterol-levels-and.html

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on July 11, 2011
at 02:05 PM

@Jack - I am going to post a new question on this because I have a lot to say based on your response and don't want to dilute the message here. Probably won't get to it until tonight.

22
9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on July 12, 2011
at 12:29 AM

From Chris Masterjohn

Dear Jack,

Since you fasted before the first test but not the second test, making any comparison between the two tests is completely meaningless. Your increase in triglycerides reflects the fact that you ate before the test, and neither value is high enough to suggest insulin resistance (>150 would have worried me a little if you'd been fasting for 12 hours but in this case it doesn't). Your decrease in total cholesterol is too small to conclude there is a real change, but even still it is confounded by fasting status.

Your total-to-HDL-C ratio is very high in both tests and is virtually identical between the two tests. This is somewhat disconcerting. Consistent with this, your LDL particle size is pattern B, which is correlated with a high total-to-HDL-C ratio in the general population. Studies of cardiovascular mortality suggest that among all of these measures, total-to-HDL-C ratio is the strongest predictor and neither adding triglycerides nor LDL particle size adds any additional information. Thus, there is nothing more disconcerting about your second test than was already disconcerting about your first test.

There is an additional reason I'm skeptical of giving preference to particle size. There is, as yet, no standardized way to assess it, and the different methods are in wild conflict with each other. In one study, they sent 40 samples to labs using four different methods of analysis, and all methods agreed on the classification only 8% of the time. Tube gel electrophoresis identified about 80% of people as type A whereas VAP identified 8% of people as type A. You can increase your particle size even more, according to a different study, by having it analyzed by HPLC.

That said, a pattern B LDL could have been predicted based on your first lipid panel due to your high total-to-HDL-C ratio. The fact that these two parameters are in agreement as well as a high total cholesterol suggests to me that you have rather low clearance of LDL from plasma. That's not the end of the world, but it seems like something worth improving to me, if possible.

If all signs of health are in good order, I would not panic about this, but I would look into the possibility of heterozygous familial hypercholesterolemia or poor thyroid function.

On a side note, I would not suggest going on niacin. I wouldn't call it "supplementing" either because that implies that niacin is a vitamin, but niacin when used to increase HDL is not a vitamin at all, but a drug. We don't even know how it works, except that it has nothing to do with its vitamin function. It was thought until very recently that it worked by inhibiting release of fatty acids from adipose tissue, but now the opinion is emerging that it works by decreasing triglyceride assembly and export in the liver. This is likely to cause liver damage. Additionally the most recent clinical study on niacin was quite negative. It would be interesting to see the effect of more virgin coconut oil, but I would try to understand the situation better before coming up with remedies.

I hope that helps.

Sincerely, Chris

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on July 12, 2011
at 01:51 AM

Thanks to Chris and Melissa for the very thoughtful response.

Cc93847bfa820f0f2da654060b401fa5

(746)

on July 12, 2011
at 05:28 AM

Great Chris! Also interesting Niacin info. Grr. Pissed I forgot to comment about the fasting. Got distracted by other comments.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on July 12, 2011
at 01:50 AM

Argh. Much could have been saved by knowing that the VAP was not done *fasted.* Somebody's head needs to roll wherever that was instructed. Should Jack want, they should be willing to re-draw the lab at no cost to him/ins if he has it.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on July 12, 2011
at 12:45 AM

Awesome response!

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on July 12, 2011
at 03:45 AM

Thank you Melissa & Chris.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 12, 2011
at 06:00 AM

regarding "heterozygous familial hypercholesterolemia or poor thyroid function." (what a mouthful btw) My grandmother on my mother's side is 75. She has been type 1 diabetic for decades. My grandfather on my father's side is 80. He is battling type 2 diabetes and so did my father, who passed at 53 in his sleep for undetermined reasons (but the autopsy showed 90% blockage in one of his main arteries). What kind of research/additional testing can I do to determine how my genetics may play a role here?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 12, 2011
at 05:55 AM

When I posted this: http://paleohacks.com/questions/48074/most-original-influential-helpful-major-person-group-in-the-paleo-primal-health-c/48144#48144 , I didn't really think it would ever happen. And now, only days later, I have a 'complex situation' and here you are, breaking it down. Thank you very much Chris and Melissa. And a head nod to Aravind as well.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on August 06, 2011
at 08:16 PM

Your case continues to help people here at AHS Jack.......several people today at lunch sat down with me to pick my brain about your VAP. So glad you decided to do this. You have helped many!

12
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on July 11, 2011
at 06:52 PM

This is just my own personal experience: for years I had a banana a day, sometimes two, and always had dried figs around the house. Loved 'em! I've been whole foods since I opened a vegetarian restaurant back in the 70s, was always into the "natural foods" thing, so I haven't done SAD in going on four decades. But the vegetarian thingy only lasted a couple of years as it was an absolute health disaster and I sold the restaurant after a year. But in all the time since, it was no refined grains or sugars, occasional honey or maple syrup, but nevertheless, unsweetened whole grain cereal with nonfat milk, whole grain bread on a sandwich and a banana a day, an apple a day, figs and some grapes and was pretty much low fat and not enough protein. I slowly put on weight up into the 90s but had high triglycerides going all the way back to the 70s.

Then in the mid-90s I read The Zone and turned on a dime. Dropped the carbs, got rid of the bananas and figs, because they were so high-glycemic, and reduced other fruit intake except for the apple a day and some grapefruit. And maybe 10 grapes. But all with protein and some fat. I was a good little Zoner. I dropped 32 pounds of fat weight and gained 4 pounds of muscle weight in a few months.

But more importantly, in that time my triglycerides went from 437 down to 67, and since that time I have considered bananas radioactive. I haven't had one in over 15 years and to this day I will not turn my back should I spy one loitering in someone's kitchen or the store. They are evil. Ding me all you want, fruitarians, but I am confortable in my own skinny skin and my low TG numbers and cannot be thwarted on this because I have my own history to fall back on. Wail, if you see fit. But when I find a food has been wicked with me, I don't whine about poor little ol' me can't have my fun food anymore. I grow fangs and hiss at it. Bananas should be hunted down and skinned. Or fed to monkeys. `Just sayin'. Besides, people slip on the insidious little bastards.

I do very little fruit today. Do with it what you will.

Ed

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on July 12, 2011
at 01:41 AM

+1 @ edrice. Somehow I missed your response on a previous read of the thread. Love the whole bit. Your experience is your experience, with *your* numbers to back it up. And to boot, it made me LMAO. If you aren't writing somewhere, you should be. Bananas are for me, in the same radioactive world...

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 07:51 PM

Brilliant Ed. This thread is amazing. Thanks for your contribution. Melissa can eat lots of bananas and keep 32 trigs. Maybe you and I can't. It seems that the old saying that each person is different is ringing so loud and clear here. I wish I was more like Melissa. I LOVE bananas. But like you, if I determine that they do me wrong, I'll ditch 'em with the quickness.

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on July 13, 2011
at 12:03 PM

Thanks, mem. I guess they just bring out banana hostililty in me and make me say these things.

6
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on July 11, 2011
at 02:16 AM

Hi Jack,

I'd be ready to change anything to get the small particles gone. I hope you find a solution.

I'm not sure what ppl around here think about "Mastering Leptin" by Byron Richards but here is a quote from page 130: "When a person eats too often, especially meals high in sugar, the liver goes into a chronic stimulation of VLDL synthesis...Thus from a dietary point of view, the foremost reason for elevated cholesterol is snacking between meals, not the cholesterol content of food."

So maybe some ppl eat bananas within the window of mealtime and have no problem whereas someone who snacks with them gets into trouble.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on July 11, 2011
at 12:22 PM

Snacking frequently can cause havoc on your body in my expierence

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 08:32 AM

very interesting. Jack Kronk eating often? snacking between meals? guilty, guilty, and then more guilty. So guilty, you wouldn't even believe it. but see, these are the types of things that we are not born knowing. i'm not saying i'm completely ready to just pin my problem on snacking, but i will definitely give this some thought. when i get home, i want to eat something snacky right away, even if i'm gonna have dinner in an hour. and after dinner, i want something snacky. it's always good, whole, healthy foods, but still it may be detrimental regardless of that.

6
3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

on July 09, 2011
at 04:03 PM

Safe starch diets would improve those numbers somewhat but not markedly. Your trigs should come down close to 100. Possibly your HDL would go up, but only slightly.

The other point to take away from this story is this: I know many people who eat safe starch diets. Not necessarily Paleo but those who eat white rice, tubers, potatoes, very little package foods and sugar.

Their trigs are usually between 100-150. That is, above the optimal level of 60, which indicates your LDL size is the buoyant, harmless one (by 99% probability). Very low trigs are usually a marker of VLC or ketogenic diets. Yet these people are very healthy.

The point is: is the lipid theory valid? You are using Trigs to impute your LDL particle size. But is LDL and its size that important? More importantly, elevated LDL levels?

Conclusion: No, I don't think so. Cardiovascular health needs to be examined in the context of the following other variables: homocysteine, micronutrient levels, inflammation (CRP, ferritin, Sed Rate), infection markers (WBC, HDL), autoimmunity markers, and most importantly, your HbA1c.

Your A1C (along with self-tested fasting BG and PP BG) is probably the most important number reflecting overall health, i.e., future health. It's your ability to metabolize carbohydrates (and sugar) that is the precursor of heart-related ailments and chronic diseases. Your fasting BG above 83 will be very revealing if you used to test 83 and now test 95 or worse 105. Most docs would say it's okay since they're used to seeing FBGs of 115 in Americans, 2/3s of whom are seriously overweight and are in the stae of becoming progressively insulin resistant. Remember, insulin resistance is a continuum, not a state of being either/or, like diabetes is.

That FBG elevation could be due to steadily increased sugar and gluten consumption. C.f.: refer to past discussions regarding how safe starches do not impair your carb metabolization but sugar and gluten grains certainly do. There is a plethora of evidence regarding the Pima, Kitavans, Okinawans, Tarahumaras, etc. Humans ate a starch-heavy diet. Just about all humans except for the Inuits, Masais and some Swiss.

So we're back to a full circle here. It comes back to fructose (sugar) and gluten again. The safe starches I think are exempt from impairing cardiovascular health, despite the somewhat elevated trigs and LDL particle size numbers.

6
Fe87afa634afe26f4f6fd956abe0b46a

(565)

on July 09, 2011
at 02:42 PM

It seems that everyone can agree that a high fat diet is going to yield positive results. There also seems to be some disagreement surrounding carbs, fruit, etc. I think it speaks loudly that Jack's numbers were looking better when he was VLC. Why not go back to that for a test run and check the numbers again.

Simply speaking- high fat=good. High Fat+Carbs=not good.

I think we need to admit that certain diets can yield healthy results (from a surface level, blood test and appearance stand point anyway) when incorporating carbs, including fruits. There are a lot of crossfit folks that look like gods and goddesses while eating ZONE.

Paleo is not one of those diets that carbs should be added to. By nature it is LC. Maybe the daily banana could be reduced to the weekly double banana/cream treat.

Consider the pizza and beer twice a month cheat too. If we're to believe that it takes 12-14 days for gluten to be removed from the system as Robb Wolf says, Jack could be in a constant state of inflammation and healing depending on the spacing of the cheats, and his sensitivity to gluten.

Maybe pushing the reset button and going strict Paleo for a month or two will give a more focused lens to see what is going on.

742ff8ba4ff55e84593ede14ac1c3cab

(3536)

on July 09, 2011
at 06:44 PM

I have to agree with ben61820 on this one.

Fe87afa634afe26f4f6fd956abe0b46a

(565)

on July 10, 2011
at 12:49 AM

Take it easy guys, when I said low-carb I was speaking relatively. Would you not agree that our ancestors ate substantially less carbs than we do with the modern western diet? Cordain stated that one of the main reasons the Paleo diet is effective at alleviating a lot of our modern ailments is due to the fact that it's naturally low carb. If we're talking about average caloric distribution prior to the agricultural revolution, calling it low carb wouldn't be nonsense. And it certainly wouldn't be "beyond nonsense". Whatever that is.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on July 09, 2011
at 05:01 PM

By nature it is LC? nonsense. Absolute nonsense. It is not by nature low carb.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 08:12 AM

Pete - I think you make a couple good points here for sure. One thing though is the difference in *types* of carbs. i think fructose can be much more problematic than a potato when combined with sat fats. as for the gluten, i am not even slightly worried about that. i have eaten loads and loads of bread all my life up until 10 months ago. i have removed >95% of the gluten/bread in my life. i don't think that <5% is now suddenly causing me inflammation.

Cc93847bfa820f0f2da654060b401fa5

(746)

on July 09, 2011
at 08:12 PM

Beyond nonsense.

Fe87afa634afe26f4f6fd956abe0b46a

(565)

on July 11, 2011
at 02:47 PM

I agree with you. I'm not saying that Paleo HAS to be low-carb. There are certainly HG (and current for that matter) populations that have done just fine on high carbs. With modern man, it's obviously about food choices. The multitude of choices is probably what gets us into trouble. I don't think we know enough about the effects of combining those choices yet, which is why we get perplexed with a situation like Jack's. I also think Jack did a service by posting his results, to promote this discussion.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on July 11, 2011
at 11:44 AM

Pete its entirely possible for HG's to eat very high carb diets. We have no idea what they all did for the most part though. I've never seen cordain state that, d you have a link?

Cc93847bfa820f0f2da654060b401fa5

(746)

on July 11, 2011
at 05:44 AM

Low-carb in many HG's diets is hyper-carb in the eyes of much of the paleo world.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on July 11, 2011
at 12:21 PM

people new to paleo always do this. whatever, its cool. the fact is that eating the food choices that we do with this whole paleo thing is only that: food choices. Make up your macros based upon goals and activity levels. Paleo is not low-carb, period. Not relative to this or that or anything else; low vs high carb is simply a whole nother conversation, completely unrelated to paleo food choices.

Fe87afa634afe26f4f6fd956abe0b46a

(565)

on July 11, 2011
at 02:55 PM

@Cliff- I'm trying to dig that link up. In the meantime, here is one where he speaks similarly: "Thus, the fossil and ethnographic data suggests that humans evolved on a diet that was primarily animal based and consequently low to moderate in carbohydrate, high in protein and low to moderate in fat. This is in contrast to the low fat, high carbohydrate, plant based diet which is almost universally recommended by modern day nutritionists." http://www.mercola.com/article/carbohydrates/paleolithic_diet.htm

6
Medium avatar

on July 09, 2011
at 01:12 AM

I think you should do a thorough assessment of how many grams of fructose you were eating during that period. If you were eating honey, figs, and bananas for 8 months and then switched to only bananas for the last month, you'd probably have some residual effect persisting. As far as bananas go, simply eating them caused severe reactive hypoglycemia for me in the past, though I was eating more than you do. It seemed to be worse than the advertised number of grams of fructose would allow for, though ripeness plays a large role in how much they have and a large banana may be quite a bit larger now than when the USDA database was compiled.

The TGs and small, dense LDL particles are the same problem and almost certainly the result of your fructose intake. Your high-ish LDL is a separate issue and is likely the result of your heavy cream, and to a lesser extent, your coconut oil intake. When I shot my LDL through the roof via butter intake, my TGs stayed quite low. I think they were 37 last I checked. I've always avoided fructose like the plague. I agree that the former problem is quite a bit more troublesome, but should be easily correctable.

Were I you, I'd replace the bananas with strawberries and don't ingest any other sources of fructose and re-test in a few months. I think a deficiency in vitamin C will potentiate the tendency toward hypertriglyceridemia in the presence of fructose. So, if you're deficient, 50g a day of fructose may be a totally different animal compared to if you are ingesting sufficient amounts. (This is merely a hunch) Strawberries are low in fructose and high in vitamin C. The ascorbate increases urate excretion, hyperuricemia being at least correlated with hypertriglyceridemia and the other symptoms of metabolic derangement.

If you also want your LDL to drop for whatever reason, simply remove the cream and any butter that may be in your diet. I'd wager that coconut oil as cooking oil is playing a much smaller role.

Edit: I don't think that starch played a role here as my TGs dropped from 54 to 37 when I doubled my starch intake to about where you are now. My TGs have steadily dropped as time has elapsed with a very low fructose intake. TGs seem to decline at a much slower rate when fructose is removed than LDL declines when myristic/palmitic/lauric acids are removed.

Good luck; don't panic.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 09, 2011
at 02:24 AM

I really don't think I'm doing very much wrong. Probably just one or two key things. That's interesting what you mention about VitC and strawberries. I do get a decent amount of strawberries but low compared to the banana volume.

Medium avatar

(39821)

on July 09, 2011
at 03:45 AM

Quilt: that's a fair point, but it seems to me that TGs have the ability to decrease HDL without decreasing LDL. If he corrects his fructose intake and his TGs as a result, his HDL will rise back up but his LDL will stay or continue to rise. If he wants to attack both numbers at once, he'd need to cut fructose and cream. If he wanted to for some reason aggressively address the LDL, cutting out the cream and replacing the coconut oil with lard or something would be the most effective. I'm not recommending this, however as it shouldn't even be on the radar yet, if at all.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 09, 2011
at 02:18 AM

Thanks Travis. I was really looking forward to you chiming in here. The most major change in my diet in the last 8 months since my lipid panel is the bananas. From August to November, I virtually had zero bananas and very little fruit. I was VLC to low carb for a good 4 months, then added back starch in December and bananas at the same time. In the last 3-4 months, I really settled in to eating about 1 to one and a half bananas per day. I wondered if it would be a problem but since I was gaining any flab, I figured there was a fairly good chance that everything was ok with that.

1f8384be58052b6b96f476e475abdc74

(2231)

on July 09, 2011
at 02:38 PM

i didnt mean only weight gain, i meant the fructose is only bad in the context of eating to many calories which IME has not much to do with weight gain....hence fatty liver and elevated trigs. i know plenty of thin people with fatty livers.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 09, 2011
at 02:22 AM

I mean, honestly, we are talking about eating some bananas and unsulfured 100% pure figs and blueberries in the context of a very rich, whole foods diet. So I definitely did not expect these results, regardless of what the Quilt says as far as me being surprised or whatever. So anyway if I had to peg it on one thing, I would have to agree about the fructose. If 100% of fructose goes through the liver, and of that up to 30% gets pushed back out in to the blood as triglycerides, then it's plausible that I am just eating a bad combination of high fat with the cream and too much banana fructose.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 09, 2011
at 02:26 AM

mallory - nope. just a few pounds of muscle over the last 6 months or so. I am as fit now as I've ever been in my life, which is part of the confusion for me. As Travis says, I don't think I'm that far off with my approach, but my numbers are pretty far off the mark.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on July 10, 2011
at 03:54 AM

Fructose is a neolithic devil because it makes an inordinate amount of of hepatic Ach .....and hepatic Ach is precisely what acetylates our chaperones and histones tha turn on all the bad switches that make TG's and sdLDL and low HDL and a Type B pattern. This is basic biochemistry and epigenetics at work. And Jack......I wrote an entire piece about you today in fact. I think this issue you raise could help thousands of people who really dont understand true dietary context and paleolithic diets

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on July 09, 2011
at 02:51 AM

@mallory:Fructose/sugar overconsumption does NOT necessarily lead to weight gain. Thin people develop fatty liver disease. Thin women also develop PCOS, but a version which is completely different than that found in the overweight/obese. Thin people who do not have the metabolic derangement of the obese may nevertheless develop metabolic syndrome. Thin people may have triglycerides up the wazoo and low HDLs.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on July 09, 2011
at 02:45 AM

Take a look at the fructose percentages in the rawfoodsos link.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on July 09, 2011
at 02:43 AM

http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/fruit-table/wild-cultiv-fruit-1a.shtml http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/05/31/wild-and-ancient-fruit/ http://www.sugarstacks.com/fruits.htm

1f8384be58052b6b96f476e475abdc74

(2231)

on July 09, 2011
at 01:31 AM

fructose would only apply if he was overeating to begin with. jack, were you gaining weight recently?

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on July 09, 2011
at 02:30 AM

Travis if coconut oil was playing a role his HDL would be a lot higher. These labs are a reflection of what his liver is facing. Ach overload from fructose

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 08:05 AM

fantastic! i just got back and haven't seen it yet but i will certainly go read it!

6
2870a69b9c0c0a19a919e54cb3a62137

(1520)

on July 08, 2011
at 06:53 PM

The 150-200g carbs seem like a prime suspect to me. I would cut that in half and stop eating bananas, which spike blood sugar easily.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on July 08, 2011
at 11:08 PM

Big bingo!,!!!!

1f8384be58052b6b96f476e475abdc74

(2231)

on July 09, 2011
at 01:25 AM

sorry but i am disagreeing. i think cholesterol and trigs are a reflection of inflammation in the body and is the result of the body trying to deal with infection/disease etc. what were jacks readings BEFORE? what runs in jacks genetics...kidney/heart/liver/colon issues will all effect how he takes to a diet. 150 NOT ADVOCATED!??!?!

1f8384be58052b6b96f476e475abdc74

(2231)

on July 09, 2011
at 01:25 AM

WTF, WHERE did you come up with that???? paleo is paleo... im sorry but not EVERYONE has your past and obesity problem you once had and treating everyone as if they did and have the SAME disfunctioning stats you once had is just wrong. are the majority of people leptin resistant..? yes prolly but this has SO LITLLE to do with PALEO carb sources.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on July 09, 2011
at 03:42 AM

@ Jack: "Part of Mitch’s therapeutic program was elimination of wheat, cornstarch, and sugars, the three most flagrant triggers of small LDL particles..." http://www.trackyourplaque.com/blog/2010/02/diabetes-from-fruit.html

1f8384be58052b6b96f476e475abdc74

(2231)

on July 09, 2011
at 01:27 AM

sorry but this MISadvocation of paleo is the reason the dietary world is turning against it and having bad results. 150 carbs DESTROY TG???? no, please tell a vegtarian that, or a fruititarian...they all have perfect cholesterol levels

34a367e60db77270bd7096dc04270fdc

(4171)

on July 09, 2011
at 02:20 AM

All vegetarians and fruititarians (never heard of these) have perfect cholesterol levels? I find that hard to believe. I've got some good friends who are vegetarian but they don't eat only veggies, they eat chips and crackers and popcorn etc. I haven't seen their lipid panels but I bet it's not perfect.

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on July 08, 2011
at 11:52 PM

Quilt - but what if our bodies get our carbs endogenously? I've read that this happens - through muscle bone via stress hormones. Wouldn't carbs attenuate this? Maybe different sources maybe? Or am I totally off?

1f8384be58052b6b96f476e475abdc74

(2231)

on July 08, 2011
at 09:19 PM

unless he is an absolute metabolically deranged person, carbs are NOT CAUSING THIS IMO....especially if they are primal ones. a banana is not the reason his trig's are high....nor do i think occasionally having some NAD's are either.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on July 09, 2011
at 06:24 PM

Just finished and Im going to load it.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on July 09, 2011
at 12:59 AM

Surprising. Not surpassing. Damn spell check

1f8384be58052b6b96f476e475abdc74

(2231)

on July 09, 2011
at 01:28 AM

and also, maybe it is a protein or fat source in jacks diet causing this. i am sick of people singling out CARBS as the all cause of every problem in the world

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on July 09, 2011
at 01:40 AM

Well, I am interested in all sides of this issue as I am out of the spectrum of "normal" as well. Yes, it is great that Jack posted this so an in depth discussion can be had. Ultimately, I hope that a suggestion/course of action he can take to avoid those horrible meds would be great. I am very open minded - I don't know squat.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on July 09, 2011
at 02:27 AM

Precisely why I'm staying out of this. Mallory's response. I enjoy jack k a lot. I think he knows precisely why.....and he is looking for feedback. The problem with feedback it has to be thought out and not based upon convention or prevailing community thought. Sometimes cutting across the grain is precisely what we need. I know jack gets that.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on July 09, 2011
at 02:10 AM

@Mallory -- we can see what Jack's levels were before; he's put them right up at the top of this question. And while we can't see the details of his LDL before, we can see his triglycerides, and they were clearly better when he was VLC. What happens in a given individual's body is the ultimate *in vivo* test. And on the flip side, what happens in the bodies of people who aren't Jack Kronk is not very relevant to Jack Kronk.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on July 09, 2011
at 02:49 PM

Jack you have motivated a blog topic about this

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 09, 2011
at 02:37 AM

Yes I agree with that Quilt. I do get it. But still I am surprised by the small dense pattern B LDL dominance. I eat a lot of foods rich in saturated and monounsaturated fats. I eat loads of eggs, butter, cream, coconut oil, gf beef, and steer pretty clear of O6 oils, toxic ingredients, and wheat. I would expect, by now, my HDL to come up significantly from a measly 40 and my LDL to be large buoyant, even with the banana fructose. I know what I choose to eat every day, and it's leagues better than so many people.

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on July 09, 2011
at 12:57 AM

Meredith.....I won't go into it here because this site is incredibly polarizing.......but as someone who sees thousands of labs a year and understands diet in context mr kronk labs are not surpassing to me. And quite frankly I'm shocked he is shocked. Maybe it's denial? Jack appears to be a great guy and I hope he figures it out with his n-1 but that many carbs destroy TG, LDL particle type and lower your HDL. All are present here and the numbers are not just a little off they are majorly off. 150 gms of carbs sustained is not advocated here at all. Love that he did this Show he is cool

Ed71ab1c75c6a9bd217a599db0a3e117

(25472)

on July 24, 2011
at 12:20 PM

And I am now layering blogs jack k. I posted the how I use a VAP blog as a follow up for you to get how I interpret you labs. Instead of hacking you personally I'd rather show you how i think about what numbers really mean and why.

5
A45af235ed4dd0b4f548c59e91b75763

(1936)

on July 11, 2011
at 12:44 PM

Hi Jack,

The only thing I can add to all the response here would be to remove variables from the equation to make it easier to solve. Eat a very simple menu for the next three months. Grass fed beef, green leafy stuff, eggs, (cooked in butter) and lots of water.

A simple diet of stuff you know to be healthy for you. Skip the banana (for now) and the nuts. No cheating.. Set the baseline. In three months you will have important data to move forward.

5
0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on July 08, 2011
at 08:47 PM

Sorry if this is so amateurish - but with my own wacky tests recently I've been doing some reading up. I have to say that I can't believe that your one banana a day is going to make you results flake out - but that's just a personal belief.

However, have you considered adrenaline/cortisol issues. I hate to say it because I myself am sick and tired of hearing these words bandied about the Paleosphere - but they could be a real player in this. Chronic elevation = lots of freed up sugar which, if not used = high trigs and high LDL.

I may be shot out of PH for good for saying this, but I think this may in fact be a reflection of VLC. I personally need to keep my carbs up, which I get mostly from fruit, a bit higher so that I don't get cortisol-ed out (bitchy). I still consider myself lower carb than an average SAD dieter, though.

Also, what is your vitamin D status. D can really pump up the HDL, which was something I was actually concerned about because mine is so high. DO you supplement and/or get your sun?

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on July 08, 2011
at 09:55 PM

Also, gelatin (bone broth etc) are said to help lower trigs - ???

1f8384be58052b6b96f476e475abdc74

(2231)

on July 08, 2011
at 09:19 PM

loving this comment :)

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on July 08, 2011
at 09:38 PM

First, I have read that supplemental D can really make HDL go up and fast - http://www.trackyourplaque.com/blog/2011/01/the-five-most-powerful-heart-disease-prevention-strategies.html - but you are at optimum. As for chronic stress - that depends on your environment. Things that we don't even register as stress - like too much light at night - and the kicker VLC. For me going VLC combined with an exercise regimen makes my stress hormones skyrocket. I too am a laid back laugh-a-lot kinda gal, but some weights, a bit of metcon and too few carbs = bitch (which I attribute to stress hormones).

0dbd7154d909b97fe774d1655754f195

(16131)

on July 08, 2011
at 09:41 PM

SO I think if it like this: the cholesterol and trigs are protective, your body is trying to get the things it needs (glucose prolly) in the face of vlc. It's going to get it whether you feed it the glucose or not. Just a huge guess, and totally counterintuitive, but maybe spacing out your fruit/starch throughout the day to knock down the adrenaline/cortisol which may be making your trigs go up?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 08, 2011
at 09:25 PM

what causes chronic elevation of cortisol? stress? i stress about as much as ben stein so i don't really think i have cortisol issues, although what you say sounds plausible. as for my vit D, it was 44 in oct (as shown in the lipid panel). i'd bet it's at least that much now. i've been getting plenty of sun lately.

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7304)

on July 11, 2011
at 12:43 PM

This is a really interesting answer. My gut response was alsothat some bananas weren't the real problem here. Re: gelatin ray peat has talked quite a bit about too much muscle meat being inflammatory but collagen/gelatin/glycine counteracting this effect boer ape this is something else for jack to think about.

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7304)

on July 11, 2011
at 12:44 PM

Excuse the typos, iPhone autocorrect...

4
50637dfd7dc7a7e811d82283f4f5fd10

(5838)

on July 08, 2011
at 06:39 PM

Hey Jack. Off the top of my head, I remember you often referring to allowing more cheats than the normal person, or being more liberal to the occasional gluten containing food and or beer. Perhaps this, with the addition of a decent amount of fruit, in the presence of a mostly Paleo diet might have that effect on the numbers, i.e. high trigs, lower HDL?

I've always kind of thought (but recognize I may be wrong) that Paleo with cheats may be more dangerous than one might think.

I think we eat fairly similar outside the gluten & fruit. My numbers recently came back as follows:

???Cholesterol, total 280

???Triglycerides 24

???HDL 115

???LDL 160

???Triglycerides / HDL Ratio 0.21

50637dfd7dc7a7e811d82283f4f5fd10

(5838)

on July 08, 2011
at 09:08 PM

I to find it hard to vilify fruit, because, it is a whole natural food. My main reason for avoidance is purely to make sure my metabolism is sound first, and then reintroduce. Sorry that I don't have much more info, but I wish you the best and hope others can provide some useful insight.

B61f6513a155cd874b42efdad55312f6

(231)

on July 08, 2011
at 07:17 PM

I have cheat days too, and I eat about a dozen eggs a week, but my LDL and triglycerides are much lower, though I think I started out lower. The trend is downward, maybe it's just going to take time for him to get his down?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 08, 2011
at 07:16 PM

i think i'm more guilty of fruit than gluten. i don't have much pizza and beer. i rarely ever eat bread. the fruit could be a culprit. i just think it's surprising for sure. and "Paleo with cheats being more dangerous than one might think." that could be true, but very few people eat 100% perfect 100% of the time. if you followed me around everyday, you'd see that I eat "Paleo" at least 90% of the time. But since that term is so loose, I am going to need to truly define what my body needs to order to correct this trend.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on July 09, 2011
at 03:01 AM

I don't think fruit should be villifed either. But in a given individual, perhaps there is acritical level for consumption...and maybe it is made more critical when combining high sugar fruits, like bananas, with heavy cream, on a daily basis. Perhaps moderating more would make a difference as well. 2 days instead of 7...?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 08, 2011
at 07:17 PM

i also wonder if I am more genetically prone to mishandle fats or something. If others are, maybe me too?

50637dfd7dc7a7e811d82283f4f5fd10

(5838)

on July 09, 2011
at 04:05 AM

I agree. I do this on higher starch days, but more for the leangaines type approach. But I have noticed when I wasnt worried about leanness and added fat with the extra carbs, it is a lot harder on my system.

3
9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on July 11, 2011
at 12:23 PM

From Chris:

For Jack Kronk, there are two important questions:

First, how many hours had you been fasting before each test? Was dinner the night before relatively similar, or dramatically different? Second, had you been weight-stable in the several months before each test, and if not, how much weight had you gained or lost prior to each test?

Medium avatar

(39821)

on July 11, 2011
at 09:45 PM

fasting should definitely be required for a VAP test...

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on July 11, 2011
at 10:47 PM

I don't know enough about the test vis-a-vis a typically lipid test. I just assumed it was necessary. This would be reason enough for me to re-do the test just to confirm.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 08:30 PM

Kombucha is a very new thing for me. I drank half of one bottle the night before and another half before the test. I drank several in the days leading up to the test. Basically had 1 about 4 days in a row. My weight before? I was 163 lbs on SAD. Dropped to 148 low carbing for about 5 months. http://paleohacks.com/questions/7058/share-your-paleo-before-and-after/28493#28493. Settled into Lacto-Paleo in Dec 2010.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 08:23 PM

For the night of June 30 before the VAP, my wife experimented with white rice options. We had baked salmon and she made white rice pasta and white rice biscuits with rice, eggs, vanilla, coconut oil, sea salt, stevia. I had 1 biscuit late that night after dinner. Pics of both can be seen here: http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u230/CLSD/VAP2011.jpg . http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u230/CLSD/IMG_0199-1000.jpg

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on July 11, 2011
at 09:56 PM

@Jack - you didn't fast for the VAP???

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 07:56 PM

Melissa/Chris - Thanks for the questions. For the lipid panel - I did that at 830am, after fasting through sleep since 10 pm the previous night and not eating breakfast.

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on July 11, 2011
at 09:50 PM

@Melissa - Really glad to see you and Chris getting engaged in the discussion. Thanks!

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 10:36 PM

They told me that it was unnecessary. I know that it could affect trig levels in the blood, and probably LDL as well, but could that have an effect on the *type* of LDL? I am more of the belief that if having small dense LDL is more of a problem that has built up not just from one or two meals, but from a longer period of time.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 08:26 PM

For the night of June 30 before the VAP, my wife experimented with white rice options. We had baked salmon and she made white rice pasta and biscuits with white rice flour, eggs, vanilla, coconut oil, sea salt, stevia. I had 1 biscuit late that night after dinner. Pics of both can be seen here: http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u230/CLSD/IMG_0197-1000.jpg . http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u230/CLSD/IMG_0199-1000.jpg

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on July 11, 2011
at 08:20 PM

also what was your weight like before that? have you lost a lot of weight?

D1c02d4fc5125a670cf419dbb3e18ba7

on July 11, 2011
at 10:48 PM

I don't know enough about the test vis-a-vis a typical lipid test. I just assumed it was necessary. This would be reason enough for me to re-do the test just to confirm

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 08:20 PM

My lipid panel was on Oct 14, 2010, so I pulled Oct 13, 2010 from my food log, back when I was tracking everything and logging carbs eaten. My total carbs for that day was 46. Dinner the night before can be seen here: http://s169.photobucket.com/albums/u230/CLSD/?action=view¤t=Oct13.jpg.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 08:03 PM

Weight stable? Yes, very. I have been between 153-158 for about 6 months now. I am great shape and continue to lift heavy 3x per week, which usually includes a post workout drink of 26g whey protein with a half a banana thrown in, sometimes a handful of blueberries, and always a dollop of heavy cream (about 2-3 tablespoons).

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on July 12, 2011
at 01:12 AM

How would fasting not be relevant? 10-12 hours of fasting before a lipid test is standard. I always fast for 12 hours. Actually, if you exercise right before drawing blood, your LDL and trigs could go lower, not sure about the particle size. Good for life insurance.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 07:59 PM

For the VAP, no fasting was required. That day, I had to go to court to fight a stupid traffic ticket, and was wandering around El Cajon starving, so I got a breakfast burrito at 8am. Eggs, Bacon, Potatoes, and yes even the flour tortilla. First flour tortilla for me since 2010. The VAP was at 2pm. At around noon, I drank a GTs Kombucha and had about 5 pecans with some cheese. Didn't really eat lunch before the test so after the snack it was only about 2 hours until the test.

9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on July 11, 2011
at 08:14 PM

how often do you drink kombucha?

2
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on July 24, 2011
at 01:02 AM

Since age has been brought up a couple of times in this thread, for a lark, I went back over a number of these posts and comments making a note of ages of the posters and it's apparent that most of the fruitaholics and the starchaholics pushing for revisionism of the paleo diet are in their 20s and 30s. This is most telling. When I was in my 20s and 30s I could do just about anything and get away with it but that didn't hold up. Today I have very little to do with fruit and starch and I explained the reason why a few days ago over here -

http://paleohacks.com/questions/50347/hack-jack-kronks-vap-test-results/50907#50907

Not only that, most younger adults are prone to excepting theories as long as it meshes with emotional attachments. Nothing like physical degeration to unlatch those. I don't mean to come off sounding patronizing, but it might be better not to fix everything is stone just yet.

So begging your forgiveness for operating with the benefit of hindsight and experience, I'm curious how many will be able to hang onto their newly acquired dogma into the decades. I read Denise Minger's paper and if that's what you're clinging to as proof of your general theory of paleotivity, please keep a light rein. I am fairly certain many of you down the path will not look back as it recedes over the horizon. It was a nice paper, interesting, and I did learn a few things about giant African fruit, but not one thing that could be incorporated by a European, North American or most Asians. I noticed she is rather young too. I wonder if someone could prod her expound on my still very valid example of the banana. Or would that not gel with the agenda?

Anyway the effects of sugar and starch in the long run is what will bring most knowledgeable people back to the real paleo.

Ed

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on July 24, 2011
at 01:28 AM

Thanks, Rose! We know it's true! BTW, I just noticed that I posted this in the wrong thread, so I just copied it over to - "Paleo isn’t low carb anymore… but it kind of was" Oh well...

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on July 24, 2011
at 01:28 AM

BTW, I can take the beating up. I'm long past worrying about such things.

3aea514b680d01bfd7573d74517946a7

(11996)

on July 24, 2011
at 01:13 AM

Ed, I know you're going to get beat up a lot for this post, but I want to say thank you. I don't have a dog in the "What is Paleo" fight; I don't care whatcha call me; Paleo, ZC, whatever. If folks want to eat "safe" starches and tons of fruit, that's cool with me. I even make those things for my husband, who I love dearly. But he's growing a little (ahem) gut at age 52, and I'm pretty sure a lot of the young bucks here are going to find themselves doing the same in a few years. Meanwhile, eating as close to ZC as possible, I weigh less today than I did when I was 21. And am healthier, too.

2
215d3126214343a5760316f195a06b97

on July 10, 2011
at 09:52 PM

Lacking something? link text

Since December, Larry has been taking all the recommended supplements and eating 5 ounces per week of beef liver. As I noted yesterday, Larry???s LDL decreased from 295 mg/dl to 213 mg/dl, HDL rose from 74 mg/dl to 92 mg/dl, and triglycerides fell from 102 to 76 mg/dl since he started Step Three. This is all consistent with a healthier vasculature and reduced production of endothelial lipase.

Honestly, all this stuff is way over my head, sorry I'm not much help :/

1
072fd69647b0e765bb4b11532569f16d

(3717)

on July 11, 2011
at 02:32 AM

Great question, post and debate going on here. It goes without saying that I am sorry it is at the expense of Jack's bloodwork. However, I think questions based on n=1 results such as Jack's are what this forum is all about. I look forward to seeing where this goes. I personally hope all would be a little more respectful of others' opinions and input. There's room for all respectful and thoughtful comment. No one has "the" answer. We are are still trying to figure this puzzle out.

1
3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

on July 09, 2011
at 04:27 AM

I suspect Jack's doing 50-60g of sugar per day. The average American does 90g.

High carb Paleo would mean "safe starch" Paleo. I.e., high carb mainly from safe starches like tubers and rice which do not have much sugar. Yams and sweet potatoes have almost no sugar, despite the sweetness. Neither do potatoes or yuca.

At 50-60g of sugar, that's about 30g of fructose. I would keep my sugar under 20g per day and still do high carb Paleo.

His Trigs would be closer to 100.

Cc93847bfa820f0f2da654060b401fa5

(746)

on July 09, 2011
at 09:40 AM

14 blended bananas. A blood sugar high of 127ml/dl. 90 minutes later 90mg/dl. Clog yourself up with fat, blood sugar levels stay elevated with added carbs. Lower-fat problem solved.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 09, 2011
at 05:04 AM

by the way... I will be away from the internet virtually all weekend at a business conference so I just don't want anyone thinking I croaked from the fructose if I don't respond to comments. lol.

Cc93847bfa820f0f2da654060b401fa5

(746)

on July 09, 2011
at 09:17 AM

Jack, it's not the bananas. I mean this in the most sincere way... save your health and run from paleohacked advice.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on July 09, 2011
at 03:52 PM

Yah, sugar is good, huh? Only Ray Peat and the youtube video agree with you.

Cc93847bfa820f0f2da654060b401fa5

(746)

on July 09, 2011
at 07:55 PM

Keep telling yourself that. Carbs aren't the problem, only a piece of the puzzle. Those above, about anyone not on deathhacks, and pretty much most of scientific world understand this. Comparing processed sugar to bananas... I think I'll start comparing margarine to virgin coconut oil. P.S. Never read Ray Peat. Don't know anything about him other than he's a metabolism hacker [?] from Matt Stone buzz.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 08:21 AM

@Grok. thanks for your thoughts. but you don't have to "troll" here. keep commenting. build a reputation here with whatever opinion / facts you'd like to represent. the users of paleohacks will respond however they will respond. if you feel you have valuable information / insight, then great. but be ready for this community to challenge you right back and put you square in your place if you spout absurdities. "The presense of too much fat". Well, that may be true in my particular case, but many peopel thrive on a higher fat diet than carb. so please feel free to expand on what you mean.

Cc93847bfa820f0f2da654060b401fa5

(746)

on July 09, 2011
at 09:32 AM

Bananas spike blood sugar http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSJ_rhJuxYE

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 09, 2011
at 05:02 AM

NP - One large 8 inch banana is approx 17g sugar and 30g carbs, most of which would be fructose. 1.5 bananas would be about 25g of sugar and 45g of carbs per day just from bananas. Then 4 dried figs is about 20g sugar / 26g carbs. That's about 65g of sugar just from those 2 items. That doesn't count if I have a handful of blueberries or raw honey. I can see how the sugar can add up pretty quickly. If I removed bananas completely, and cut back on all other fructose containing items, I bet I can get my trigs back down well below 100 again, which will likely produce a stronger pattern A LDL type.

Cc93847bfa820f0f2da654060b401fa5

(746)

on July 09, 2011
at 09:42 AM

Yes I'm a troll. As a former low-carber this bulls#it sugar information needs to perish.

3c6b4eed18dc57f746755b698426e7c8

(5152)

on July 10, 2011
at 04:41 AM

Andy, we should adopt a measured position with regard to cholesterol. It's multifactorial. The total number is meaningless. The components mean something but are more useful as markers of low-carbing and/or infection status. I don't really believe in the lipid theory.

Cc93847bfa820f0f2da654060b401fa5

(746)

on July 09, 2011
at 09:24 AM

Except for maybe me, this guy eat more bananas than anyone. His trigs are under 80. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z-ikN_F1Z8

Cc93847bfa820f0f2da654060b401fa5

(746)

on July 11, 2011
at 05:42 AM

"If it's not the increase in fructose, then what is it? The presence of too much fat.

E34fbfa1bca9ae970c9c7313bf9de9f8

(1436)

on July 09, 2011
at 10:28 PM

If you read the literature you'll find that fructose does increase triglyceride levels and increase small dense LDL. That's one thing that Jack's changed in his diet in the last 12 months.. If it's not the increase in fructose, then what is it?

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on July 11, 2011
at 11:49 AM

You see how high durianriders blood sugar go's even though bananas are only half glucose? I wonder what happens to all that fructose??? Probably deposits in all his tissues and oxidizes leading to saggy, wrinkly deformed skin ALA Doug graham. WHo would eat bananas when you could just eat more tubers and get what your body actually needs, glucose.....

Cc93847bfa820f0f2da654060b401fa5

(746)

on July 11, 2011
at 10:06 PM

@Jack, You clearly like your carbs (who doesn't) and it's a good idea to have them in your diet for a whole host of reasons. You've already tried the high-fat, so why not try the low-fat? It's still paleo. Plenty of people out there (Barnard http://bit.ly/oGFPJR) (Esselstyn http://bit.ly/nBZuUA) treating these kinds of problems on low-fat. Whole food low-fat diets can be very delicious and satisfying. Take this from a guy who was never satisfied. Highly unlikely you won't receive the results you desire.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on July 11, 2011
at 11:01 PM

I know the typical 811 response to why DG has wrinkly deformed skin it doesn't hold up one bit. I live in LA and see plenty of people his age who are more dark from the skin yet they do not have his wrinkly deformed skin. These people eat bullshit and are very physically active(You can tell by there physique). If his diet was so blaster he wouldn't look leather face.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on July 11, 2011
at 11:02 PM

I know the typical 811 response to why DG has wrinkly deformed skin it doesn't hold up one bit. I live in LA and see plenty of people his age who are more dark from the sun yet they do not have his wrinkly deformed skin. These people eat bullshit and are very physically active(You can tell by there physique). If his diet was so blaster he wouldn't look like leather face.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on July 11, 2011
at 11:02 PM

I know the typical 811 response to why DG has wrinkly deformed skin it doesn't hold up one bit. I live in LA and see plenty of people his age who are more dark from the skin yet they do not have his wrinkly deformed skin. These people eat bullshit and are very physically active(You can tell by there physique). If his diet was so blaster he wouldn't look like leather face.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 08:44 AM

when i say that may be true in my case, i mean that we are still trying to figure that out. that is the purpose of this thread. and this 'deathhacks' community is responding like the champions that i know they are. people doing diligent research. doctors writings blog articles. people caring. you can call that whatever you want. i call it valuable.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 12, 2011
at 05:47 AM

This thread is about more than just me Grok.

Cc93847bfa820f0f2da654060b401fa5

(746)

on July 11, 2011
at 09:28 PM

"saggy, wrinkly deformed skin" I've always wondered why primates have squinty wrinkled faces. The evil fructose. Couldn't be oxidative stress from Graham's ultra exercise (practically superhuman) and white skin in an equatorial environment. "Paleo" Ultraman Jonas Colting got chewed up on MDA one time for looking old. DR looks much younger that your average 30 something. People are too infatuated with physical appearance as an indicator of health. Look to a typical gym for examples. Great bodies, but dying from the inside out.

Cc93847bfa820f0f2da654060b401fa5

(746)

on July 12, 2011
at 01:12 AM

I live in Hawaii. Good % of the caucasians here are just as bad as Doug and 15-20 years younger. Doug lives closer to equatorial sun (Florida, Costa Rica, Hawaii) is older than Mark Sisson, and doesn't look any different if you'd like compare diet/lifestyle gurus physical appearances. Are you really arguing that heavy sun exposure doesn't damage skin? LMAO. I'll pretend I didn't read that, just like the glucose comment above. Sorry for the topic hijack & weenie measuring paleohackers. Isn't this thread about Jack?

1
5b342f46c2a9499b213aa1e6888f50e1

(80)

on July 08, 2011
at 11:14 PM

All I can say is that as much as I love coconut oil, it did a bad bad number on my LDL--and when I switched from coconut oil to butter to fry my eggs, down went my ldl. so sad, too bad--bit the CO was the culprit for me--

50637dfd7dc7a7e811d82283f4f5fd10

(5838)

on July 08, 2011
at 11:18 PM

I had the exact opposite effect.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 08, 2011
at 11:22 PM

Hi ouis. That's very interesting. Most people have the opposite story. Did you ever get teh type of LDL you had tested? it does make a big difference. It is beginning to become more clear that LDL itself may not necessarily be a bad thing. The reason for my concern is that my test showed a dominance of small dense LDL, which is likely more prone to oxidation and therefore cardiovascular issues. Welcome to PaleoHacks.

1
Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7304)

on July 08, 2011
at 06:56 PM

Oof, that HDL needs to go up. I would use coconut oil for fat, and completely cut out the nuts. It can't hurt. Pufa can lower HDL, so that's definitely something to think about. Paul Jaminet has also talked about HDL being lowered with infections, so that's a possibly avenue for exploration as well.

Also, while I don't normally think fruit is a problem, you might want to cut it out for a little bit and see if that makes a difference. It may, it may not, but it'll be worth it to find out. I think the kitavans have slightly elevated trigs, but don't show signs of much heart disease. Regardless, I wouldn't drop the starchy tubers. I don't think they're problematic in individuals with relatively good insulin sensitivity, and they provide lots of potassium and reduce/eliminate the need for gluconeogenesis. That's good in my book.

I imagine you'll get some better answers than mine soon enough, as I'm obviously no expert. Best of luck Jack.

D5cde8031564f905260ce9aa7a1f5e2c

(1170)

on July 08, 2011
at 09:33 PM

A meta-analysis from 2009 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19394473) - "Almond consumption may decrease total cholesterol and does not significantly affect LDL or HDL cholesterol, triglycerides, or the LDL:HDL ratio. The current body of randomized trials does not support the ingestion of almonds solely for their lipid modifying effects."

D5cde8031564f905260ce9aa7a1f5e2c

(1170)

on July 08, 2011
at 09:33 PM

As for pecans (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11533266) - "Both diets improved the lipid profile; however, the pecan-enriched diet decreased both serum total and LDL cholesterol by 0.32 mmol/L (6.7 and 10.4%, respectively) and triglyceride by 0.14, while increasing HDL cholesterol by 0.06 mmol/L (2.5 mg/dL)." I doubt the almonds and pecans are hurting your HDL.

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7304)

on July 08, 2011
at 09:53 PM

I think that its a definitely a possibility. Your lipid panel is not looking too great and that could be a helpful change. I can sympathize though bc I'm a sucker for some almond pecan butter. So good, but i only have it very rarely.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 08, 2011
at 08:18 PM

mari - you really think that the pecans/almonds could be blocking my HDL from going up? I so don't want this to be true.

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7304)

on July 11, 2011
at 12:48 PM

Yes I've seen those actually. However none of the people in those studies was jack kronk. I think it might be beneficial to switch to macadamias and get retested. Like I said, it can't hurt.

0
9de28a80b0dea81e50495aa5bf28184b

(180)

on December 18, 2011
at 06:36 PM

Hello Jack! I've discovered this post after suffering a similar situation myself. I read your comments in Dr. Davis blog and I have also posted a question in this forum: http://paleohacks.com/questions/83913/high-ldl-tryglicerides-and-uric-acid#axzz1gpFGBP3x

What has been the evolution of your situation? Did you resolve it? How? May I contact you? Thank you

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on December 18, 2011
at 08:01 PM

Hi Nirgal - See my latest entry from a month ago: http://paleohacks.com/questions/79187/hack-jack-kronks-latest-lab-results-part-3-nov-19-2011. Also, I just answered your post.

0
36b7a2776d028dc8d5743e2e56ece34d

on July 10, 2011
at 10:59 PM

How much non-weight bearing exercise do you do?

36b7a2776d028dc8d5743e2e56ece34d

(812)

on July 10, 2011
at 11:39 PM

specifically walking

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 06:37 PM

cliff - how in the world can you know that? WH - I easily walk 2+ miles per day total. if walking is cardio then fine. but i don't do focused cardio exercise for the purpose of exercise. Ben - that's interesting. we are pretty close in several ways. but wow zero fruit huh?

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on July 11, 2011
at 12:19 PM

man jack, the more i'm reading this thread of yours the more i'm thinking of myself. I'm male, 31, 6', only lift with the big lifts, no cardio (other than walking), etc. I think my overall profile is similar to yours. Although I eat no fruit. Zero. Just mentioning.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 08:34 AM

do you mean non-weight bearing? i walk all over the place in san diego daily. and i always walk fast. other than that, my exercise is weight training. i don't do cardio.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on July 11, 2011
at 12:24 PM

Paleo man walked 8-20 miles a day. something to think about.

36b7a2776d028dc8d5743e2e56ece34d

(812)

on July 11, 2011
at 04:53 PM

Can you quantify "all over the place" in miles? Walking is cardio imo.

E5c7f14800c5992831f5c70fa746dc5c

(12857)

on July 11, 2011
at 07:44 PM

Its based on a article I read by cordain, I found this one http://www.cathletics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3900 but I'm not sure its the same one as I remember him giving specific estimates of paleo hunter gatherers.

0
072fd69647b0e765bb4b11532569f16d

(3717)

on July 09, 2011
at 02:19 AM

I tend to agree with Travis re: the LDL and cream but can't speak to the tris and the potential affect of fructose. You didn't mention whether your exercise routines changed over any of these time periods. It may be a CW and not followed as much on this forum, but the possibility exists that exercise affects cholesterol readings. Do you plan to control/change a limited number of variables? That would be my personal approach were I you. You are obviously doing a lot of things correct (look, feel, perform). I certainly would avoid a shotgun approach to see if something sticks.

-2
66974b2cb291799dcd661b7dec99a9e2

(11121)

on July 08, 2011
at 08:50 PM

See this post: http://paleohacks.com/questions/50312/interpreting-my-lipid-panel-results#axzz1RY65w7n2

People should stop worrying about their lipid panel numbers.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 08, 2011
at 09:39 PM

Josh - thanks for the follow up? Can you see why I think your answer is a little flippant or at the very least lackadaisical? If you had these numbers come through on a VAP test (which is much more telling than a standard lipid panel by the way), what would you do? Nothing? Don't change anything and test again in a month?

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 08, 2011
at 09:00 PM

Josh - Did you read my post? I am not worrying about "lipid panel numbers". I know all about the classic misunderstandings that people see when analyzing these numbers. I have quite an in depth understanding of what much of these readings represent because I have read gobs and gobs of write ups from all of our favorite gurus. Did you see that my results came back with pattern B LDL, lowish HDL, and highish VLDL? These are not good signs.

66974b2cb291799dcd661b7dec99a9e2

(11121)

on July 08, 2011
at 09:31 PM

Yup - get the same tests done once a month for 4 or 6 months, the variation can be quite interesting, or use different labs. Never take things at face value. 12 patients of my doctor all got together and did this last year - the results almost made our doctor faint as he thought we we all nuts. That same doctor is now doing research and questioning a lot about what he thought was normal.

6670b38baf0aae7f4d8ac2463ddc37c0

(3946)

on July 08, 2011
at 09:04 PM

Doesn't matter how you slice it, abnormal "B" pattern LDL is definitely something to worry about.

-6
C2502365891cbcc8af2d1cf1d7b0e9fc

(2437)

on July 11, 2011
at 12:25 AM

What exactly is the problem here, dude? Are you worried about having a heart attack? When your time is up, it's up. As long as you feel good and healthy in the here and now - that's all that matters.

072fd69647b0e765bb4b11532569f16d

(3717)

on July 11, 2011
at 01:40 PM

Downvote from me too. We all have questions and need an occasional hack. Same for Jack. If you don't have something constructive to add, why post anything at all?

50637dfd7dc7a7e811d82283f4f5fd10

(5838)

on July 11, 2011
at 03:47 AM

[link text][1] [1]: http://wozzasoft.net/blog/?p=90

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on July 11, 2011
at 12:17 PM

wozza, why put something like that? You've got a lot of posts, and I thought I remembered you as a helpful person. Downvote from me.

Af1d286f0fd5c3949f59b4edf4d892f5

(18472)

on July 11, 2011
at 08:40 AM

this answer deserves about 300 downvotes. i don't understand that link that Todd provided, but it's pretty weird if you wrote that stuff about yourself. you've asked 10 q, answers 96 times, and have almost 500 votes. what in the world are you doing here if you think "When your time is up, it's up." Close your account. You don't need to be here trying to help anyone. Just let them all die.

C2502365891cbcc8af2d1cf1d7b0e9fc

(2437)

on July 11, 2011
at 03:16 AM

I'm serious. What is the issue?

50637dfd7dc7a7e811d82283f4f5fd10

(5838)

on July 11, 2011
at 02:49 AM

Wow. A closed mouth hinders no foot.

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