3

votes

When is the optimal time to eat carbs on training days?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created December 03, 2012 at 9:59 AM

My question is when should one eat carbohydrate for optimal glycogen replenishment AND bodyfat reduction? Does it matter for the purpose of bodyfat reduction BELOW 10%?

The two main protocols I'd like to compare are Leangains and Carb Backloading.

Leangains focuses on fasted training midday for optimal body fat burning.

CBL focuses on optimal hormonal timing of evening training and night carb loading.

So, when should we train, and when should we eat carbs, to optimally shed bodyfat, as well most efficiently absorb carbs and replenish glycogen?

Is there truly a glycogen window where carbs are absorbed by muscles more completely and efficiently when taken immediately post training? Or will any time that day after training suffice?

Is there a real advantage to non insulin mediated glucose uptake and training induced tGLUT translocation, whereby carbs are preferentially and most efficiently absorbed by muscle and not fat or other tissues when one eats carbs immediately post workout?

Which scenario will burn bodyfat and store carbs into muscle best:

1) Leangains midday fasted training followed by a lunch of half of the days carb/protein totals immediately post training and an identical dinner

2) Leangains midday fasted training followed by a lunch of all of the days carbs and half of the days protein totals immediately post training and for dinner the remainder of the days protein

3) Leangains midday fasted training followed by lunch of half of the days protein totals immediately post training and a dinner of all the days carb plus the remainder of the days protein

4) Lunch of half of daily protein totals followed by CBL afternoon/evening training and all the days carbs plus the remainder of protein

Through personal intuitive experience, I feel my body best absorbs carbs immediately post exercise, and later that day it feels less efficient.

Leangains focus on fasted training midday for bodyfat burning seems attractive. Eating some carbs PWO and more at dinner on training days has given me good results.

But I'm wondering if eating all my carbs PWO at lunch would be better absorbed.

Conversely, I'm also wondering if eating only protein and a little fat PWO will continue fat burning all day AND take advantage of the night time carb loading advantage advocated by CBL and many studies saying it reduces bodyfat and gives a positive hormonal effect. My concern here is that I'd be missing the advantage of higher carb absorption efficiently when eating them immediately PWO.

Lastly, I can't train afternoon/evening so the CBL late training and carb load nighttime immediately PWO isn't feasible now, but I'd like opinions comparing it to my above scenarios.

Ed7403e397077dd1acdbf25c7f6e56ce

(3452)

on December 07, 2012
at 03:55 PM

Anybody care to explain?

Ba99a15e6bf870b81286791617050593

(671)

on December 05, 2012
at 06:15 AM

And out of curiosity - anyone tried beer as part of a CBL? Gluten-free or no? I haven't fully enjoyed an IPA since going paleo over a year ago, but I'm wondering if a 24 hour fast with CBL might make me needy enough that I can process it w/out any detriment. Or even just a little detriment if it's a DIPA.

Ba99a15e6bf870b81286791617050593

(671)

on December 05, 2012
at 06:12 AM

by the way - two Jakes here. Jake & jake.

Ba99a15e6bf870b81286791617050593

(671)

on December 05, 2012
at 06:09 AM

I'm with you on all points. I feel like that's what it should most often come down to. Shouldn't you be LOOKING at whomever the advice is coming from? Which is why it amazes me that so many people go to Dr. Weil to lose weight...

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 05, 2012
at 05:43 AM

Thanks ill watch it. Glycogen optimization isn't my concern...it's glucose going into the place I want it to go that's my concern (muscle, instead of fat or brain tissues).

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 05, 2012
at 05:40 AM

Yesterday I wo fasted 11am, whey/bcaa pwo 12pm, lean beef/fish oil 3pm, lean beef/sweet potatoes (230g carb) 9pm. Felt great.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 05, 2012
at 05:26 AM

jake, got it, but im not keen on taking 230g pure glucose at lunch. talk about a shitty day thereafter! nor do i want to do it at night. perhaps sweetened rice at night. but my wo is at midday anyway, so its moot. primalgains, wondering how midday fasted training leangains style, protein only pwo, and carb nite last meal will pan out. i was taking half my taters pwo midday, and half at dinner. i think the former idea may burn more fat, the latter may be better for anabolism. im after fat burning.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 05, 2012
at 05:22 AM

oliver, i never eat carbs for breakfast. i dont eat breakfast. i eat 2x a day 12ish and 8ish. i 16/8 leangains IF. so we are operating on that premise. also, i want to optimize, but i wont take 230g glucose pwo! convenience wise, pwo or night is equal. so im looking for optimal. i was taking half my taters pwo and half at dinner. recently ive tried all pwo (lunch). last night i tried all carbs at night, lunch time fasted wo, protein only until dinner. honestly the latter felt the best. if eating slow carbs like taters is less efficient pwo OR later, maybe nite carb effect takes it.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 05, 2012
at 05:15 AM

N=1 wise, yesterday i tried scenario #3; wo fasted at 11, whey and bcaa only pwo at 12, lean beef and 15g fish oil at 15, carbs and more lean beef at 21:00. honestly all day felt great. i felt better after my wo than when i carb load pwo. i reiterate, im concerned if there is a window for improved glucose uptake by the muscle preferentially, NOT whether or not carbs help you grow muscle when eaten immediately pwo.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 05, 2012
at 05:09 AM

cd, not sure where jakes comments went. i understand that carbs are not nec for muscle synthesis. i was vlc keto and lift recovery was just fine. my issue is glucose ABSORPTION efficiency. this post is about when to eat carbs so they go into the muscle instead of fat, or brain tissues in overdose. i want to know if there is a window where glucose from carbs will go into the muscles better. if i wait until night to eat carbs when my wo is noon, will they absorb preferentially into muscle as efficiently?

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 04, 2012
at 11:43 PM

No I do NOT CBL on rest days. I think Martin is the authority here. Look at the pics of Martin vs Keifer's clients: the former are way more ripped, the latter bigger. I want ripped. I've ALWAYS felt carbs are awful for me pre training and excellent post training! Anyway I never have a problem summoning power on training days so what's the point?

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 04, 2012
at 11:38 PM

Jake, I couldn't have detailed my motives or justified my post better if I'd said it myself. Right on!

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on December 04, 2012
at 04:20 PM

Where did jake's comment go?

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on December 04, 2012
at 04:19 PM

The authors even state, *"The major finding of this study was that after 10 wk of training, supplementation before and after each workout resulted in significantly greater improvements... compared with a matched group who had consumed the same supplement at times outside of the pre- and postworkout time frames."* -- That is supplementation is valuable -- NOT a specific macro which their study did not investigate.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on December 04, 2012
at 04:19 PM

I think you (1) have only read the abstract and not the actual paper; (2) Grossly misrepresenting my position, I have only suggested that there is not a glucose window. Every study I linked to compares protein+glucose to protein alone. There is a protein window, there is not a glucose window; (3) are putting too much stock in a single blind 23 person study where the individuals being studied knew whether they were being given the supplements. AND only 17 of the participants completed the study!!!

Medium avatar

(2338)

on December 04, 2012
at 03:59 PM

I think you oversimplified the study I presented. It showed that there is an optimal time window to consume nutrients which you asserted was untrue. The study looked at the timing of the supplement, either around the workout or after waking and before bed. There was a significant difference. You have said many times that as long as you get nutrients at some point during the day it shouldn't make any difference but this study clearly shows otherwise. The study has less to do with what nutrients specifically are consumed and more to do with the timing of those nutrients.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on December 04, 2012
at 02:42 PM

animaleater, I am not saying go without carbs PWO. I am saying it is not necessary. I think you need to do what works best for you. N=1 is the only way to know!

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on December 04, 2012
at 02:41 PM

jake, that study does not refute any of the studies I presented. That study shows that a combination of protein/creatine/glucose is superior when given pre/post exercise than when nothing is provided. The studies I linked to take it one step further and show that protein alone does as well as protein+glucose. It is very well accepted that protein has a PWO. But, based on the preponderance of scientific evidence, glucose does not have a PWO. So yes, something is better than nothing, that doesn't disprove my assertion that there is not a "carb window" *required for optimal muscle synthesis.

B84597b7853f695c90593a6dc659078a

(130)

on December 04, 2012
at 12:26 PM

I wouldn't say this has backfired for the many who have used Leangains with great success (including myself), with a good mix of low/med GI foods post workout over a few hours. Sure this may not be optimal, but it's practical and works within context of body re-composition (and helps massively with satiety/hunger).

Ba99a15e6bf870b81286791617050593

(671)

on December 04, 2012
at 10:57 AM

Ahhh. That makes total sense now. Still, it seems difficult to swing from an evolutionary standpoint. And isn't sleep (besides fasted-training/recovery) when we're producing the most HGH anyway? Would a couple of sweet potatoes before bed really counteract that so significantly?

B84597b7853f695c90593a6dc659078a

(130)

on December 04, 2012
at 09:05 AM

Yes the one pre workout meal scenario worked really well for me; on a mild cut with a lightly active multiplier, I was consuming approx 400g carbs. Now I'll be looking to recomp with 80-90% paleo, roughly measuring macros. Last night after some heavy deadlifts I made an awesome sweet potato and parsnip mash with some lean steak strips :)

F26fbc92b18f4689769d6f8746ea40f7

(334)

on December 04, 2012
at 06:29 AM

Since CBL is ideally performed in the evening, loading with low GI carbs would have detrimental consequences on your nocturnal growth hormone release. Such a strategy would backfire very quickly.

Ba99a15e6bf870b81286791617050593

(671)

on December 04, 2012
at 06:10 AM

Kiefer says to go with High GI because you don't want insulin coursing throughout the day. He mentioned in the podcast that the whole idea of sweet potatoes/legumes/etc. is misguided. You take advantage of the PWO window as quickly as possible with high GI because you want it in and out of your system, whereas low-GI keeps your blood sugar 'higher' throughout the day, though obviously not as high other GI foods. Interesting.

Ba99a15e6bf870b81286791617050593

(671)

on December 04, 2012
at 06:07 AM

Do you CBL on rest days? That's the other thing I've been considering, as Kiefer advocates it as prep for the next days workout. That's where CBL and LG clash a bit because Berkhan seems more about recovery and Kiefer is a bit ambiguous on that. I know he suggests 'look in the mirror' as his guide but that seems a bit ambiguous. Especially for a guy who actually sounds really carb-phobic most of the time.

Ba99a15e6bf870b81286791617050593

(671)

on December 04, 2012
at 06:01 AM

I think there's a lot to be said for the complication (can we say complification?) of paleo and body composition (usually, on this board, at times of regret at bingeing, I'm overweight, etc.) but in this instance, I think we're actually looking for the over complication because we're talking about actual body 'hacks.' Once you start using the protocol it doesn't become complicated at all, but figuring out what works best is. For me part of the enjoyment of following LG/CBL is the nitty-gritty of it. Same reason there's freaky baseball stats dudes and the like.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 04, 2012
at 05:59 AM

CD, Jake, love the healthy discourse! today im experimenting with scenario #3: trained at 11am fasted, 12pm whey and bcaa shake only, still fasting now, its 3pm, will eat half my lean beef and 15g fish oil for fast breaker shortly (3:30ish), figure these few hours after training im fat burning, whey\bcaa stops catabolism, then after work around 8pm ill eat all my sweet potatoes and the rest of my beef. so im trying your recommendation CD, and the same was recommended by my paleo climbing partner who does this. wondering how itll feel with my carbs so long after my workout.

Medium avatar

(2338)

on December 04, 2012
at 03:54 AM

CD, this study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17095924 goes directly against what you are saying.

F26fbc92b18f4689769d6f8746ea40f7

(334)

on December 04, 2012
at 01:26 AM

Carbs at night is always better than earlier during the day. You wake up in a ketogenesis-prone state. Eating carbs for breakfast destroys that right away. So placing CHO-intake later during the day and sticking to fats in the morning, or even fasting, will yield great results. All of this is never black/white. Even if you cannot or don't want to eat all carbs very close to workout completion and eat slow GI carbs instead of simple sugars, you will still do pretty good. It's just that you won't maximize the effect. Based our our daily lives we need optimize ... we cannot always maximize.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on December 04, 2012
at 01:22 AM

I'm the opposite. If I eat carbs right after workout I feel bloated and nauseous. The science says there is not an optimal window for muscle synthesis. If it works for you, do it, but don't force it if it doesn't feel right. Chalk this one up to personal preference.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 04, 2012
at 12:06 AM

I know there are other LG protocols; Martin just recommends midday fasted training. Your protocol sounds like my scenario 3 above. I've used that when I go to the rock climbing gym in the afternoon; lean beef pre, climb, more lean beef and rice after climbing. You did 400g carbs on a cut cycle? I do 230g at 64kg.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 04, 2012
at 12:00 AM

So either take glucose immediately PWO or its all the same? Hmm. Studies show night eating has better effect on body composition, so there must be something else at play. I know I need to eat carbs to lean out. My schedule dictates 11am (fasted)workouts. So given what you're saying, that the window is small, and I'm eating slower digesting rice or potatoes (not taking pure glucose), I'm missing that window whether I eat them PWO or at night? And then, given some advantage to nite eating, perhaps it's best to eat then then? I just always feel they absorb best immediately PWO :/

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 03, 2012
at 11:05 PM

CD, I read all those studies before I posted the question. I train every other day, so glycogen isn't my concern. I'm talking about plain old higher efficiency of absorption preferentially by muscles over other tissues (fat, brain, liver). I have personally felt the physical difference (felt better) when I eat carbs while still sweating. They absorb. When I eat them hours later, my brain gets then glucose as I FEEL the carbs as lightheaded-ness and an overall empty feeling; immediately PWO they feel great. So I'm wondering about THAT part of the science.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 03, 2012
at 10:55 PM

Meal timing wise, Martin set me free. Eat between 12-8pm. I prefer two meals usually, one once a week. Easy. Martin talked about the late nite eating thing too: http://www.leangains.com/2011/06/is-late-night-eating-better-for-fat.html?m=1 As for the CBL book, it was too much money for the content. My buddy and I split it. He's doing what you are btw; fasting till 6, workout, CBL carb feed. I work 1-8~9pm, so Martin's 11am fasted training works for me. Sat-Monday tho I could try the above. But I wonder about my energy level doing that. Ill try a protein only lunch beforehand.

Ba99a15e6bf870b81286791617050593

(671)

on December 03, 2012
at 02:22 PM

Is the book worth it? I like the new paradigm of having 'Versions' and getting constant updates. But $60? That's four paperbacks, at least. Unless he's updating it constantly I'd be fine having something to hold in my hand. +1 to Berkhan for doing everything free.

Ba99a15e6bf870b81286791617050593

(671)

on December 03, 2012
at 02:19 PM

Yea, hence my 25% right after the meal and more later in the day. But that makes me feel like I'm in a bit of meal-timing limbo. One thing I found interesting in the podcast is a study he references showing even if you're not doing any resistance training, concentrating carbs at night leads to improvements in body comp. He seems pretty adamant that there's no hormonal advantages to the the afternoon workout, which is interesting given the bulk of evidence for fasted training. The other thing I've been trying and has been working well? Skipping lunch, too, lift in the afternoon, and then gorge.

2e1591c76896828077b930de5107f1af

on December 03, 2012
at 01:25 PM

you sound like you are overcomplicating the stuff, experiment both and see how you feel, good luck

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 03, 2012
at 01:10 PM

And I listened to that podcast too. He sounds legit.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 03, 2012
at 12:28 PM

Awesome response. I have his book. It's ok. Lot if scientific support for his ideas, but little do and don't specifics. My buddy who's doing what we're doing says the same about eating his carbs at nite...feels good. My catch is I feel personally that carbs are absorbed better while you're still sweating from exertion. And if I do delay them till nite, what about just protein and a tad of fat only for PWO meal. Seems like to get any PWO carbs shuts off fat burning, so makes sense to keep it keto until nite load, or just get it over with and utilize PWO higher absorption efficiency.

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6 Answers

2
F26fbc92b18f4689769d6f8746ea40f7

(334)

on December 03, 2012
at 08:32 PM

The CBL protocol relies on the fact that strength exercise induces insulin-independent upregulation of glucose transporters on the surface of muscle cells. So post exercise, all high glycemic carbohydrates will be literally soaked up by your muscle tissue without the fat tissue being able to access it This is especially true if you work out in the evening, since insulin sensitivity for both muscle and fat is at its lowest at that time. Since I am a biomedical scientist, I took a hard look at the data that is out there and I know that CBL is based on hard facts. However if you look at the kinetics of insulin-independent upregulation of the glucose transporters, the 'window' appears to be quite small. After 30min, the transporters start to internalize again (at least in rat muscle ... but I cannot imagine that similar work could be carried out on human tissue)! I have not looked into the leangains protocol at all, but in my opinion CBL should work if you get the carbs in as fast as possible and then be done with it. 60min after working out, based on the data that is out there, the muscle tissue will not have such a big advantage anymore (in terms of glucose uptake) over fat tissue, and the insulin you will produce by ingesting carbs will impact muscle as well as fat tissue growth. So my take is: load the carbs within the first hour of exercise (ideally with the highest glycemic kind ... such as pure dextrose) and then refocus on protein/fat. That's how I would (and will) do it anyway. Working out and then binging on carbs for 4-5 hours doesn't make too much scientific sense to me, except if you just want to get big (i.e. build muscle AND fat) instead of lean and mean.

Ba99a15e6bf870b81286791617050593

(671)

on December 04, 2012
at 06:10 AM

Kiefer says to go with High GI because you don't want insulin coursing throughout the day. He mentioned in the podcast that the whole idea of sweet potatoes/legumes/etc. is misguided. You take advantage of the PWO window as quickly as possible with high GI because you want it in and out of your system, whereas low-GI keeps your blood sugar 'higher' throughout the day, though obviously not as high other GI foods. Interesting.

Ba99a15e6bf870b81286791617050593

(671)

on December 04, 2012
at 10:57 AM

Ahhh. That makes total sense now. Still, it seems difficult to swing from an evolutionary standpoint. And isn't sleep (besides fasted-training/recovery) when we're producing the most HGH anyway? Would a couple of sweet potatoes before bed really counteract that so significantly?

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 05, 2012
at 05:26 AM

jake, got it, but im not keen on taking 230g pure glucose at lunch. talk about a shitty day thereafter! nor do i want to do it at night. perhaps sweetened rice at night. but my wo is at midday anyway, so its moot. primalgains, wondering how midday fasted training leangains style, protein only pwo, and carb nite last meal will pan out. i was taking half my taters pwo midday, and half at dinner. i think the former idea may burn more fat, the latter may be better for anabolism. im after fat burning.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 05, 2012
at 05:22 AM

oliver, i never eat carbs for breakfast. i dont eat breakfast. i eat 2x a day 12ish and 8ish. i 16/8 leangains IF. so we are operating on that premise. also, i want to optimize, but i wont take 230g glucose pwo! convenience wise, pwo or night is equal. so im looking for optimal. i was taking half my taters pwo and half at dinner. recently ive tried all pwo (lunch). last night i tried all carbs at night, lunch time fasted wo, protein only until dinner. honestly the latter felt the best. if eating slow carbs like taters is less efficient pwo OR later, maybe nite carb effect takes it.

F26fbc92b18f4689769d6f8746ea40f7

(334)

on December 04, 2012
at 06:29 AM

Since CBL is ideally performed in the evening, loading with low GI carbs would have detrimental consequences on your nocturnal growth hormone release. Such a strategy would backfire very quickly.

F26fbc92b18f4689769d6f8746ea40f7

(334)

on December 04, 2012
at 01:26 AM

Carbs at night is always better than earlier during the day. You wake up in a ketogenesis-prone state. Eating carbs for breakfast destroys that right away. So placing CHO-intake later during the day and sticking to fats in the morning, or even fasting, will yield great results. All of this is never black/white. Even if you cannot or don't want to eat all carbs very close to workout completion and eat slow GI carbs instead of simple sugars, you will still do pretty good. It's just that you won't maximize the effect. Based our our daily lives we need optimize ... we cannot always maximize.

B84597b7853f695c90593a6dc659078a

(130)

on December 04, 2012
at 12:26 PM

I wouldn't say this has backfired for the many who have used Leangains with great success (including myself), with a good mix of low/med GI foods post workout over a few hours. Sure this may not be optimal, but it's practical and works within context of body re-composition (and helps massively with satiety/hunger).

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 04, 2012
at 12:00 AM

So either take glucose immediately PWO or its all the same? Hmm. Studies show night eating has better effect on body composition, so there must be something else at play. I know I need to eat carbs to lean out. My schedule dictates 11am (fasted)workouts. So given what you're saying, that the window is small, and I'm eating slower digesting rice or potatoes (not taking pure glucose), I'm missing that window whether I eat them PWO or at night? And then, given some advantage to nite eating, perhaps it's best to eat then then? I just always feel they absorb best immediately PWO :/

2
3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on December 03, 2012
at 06:09 PM

Is there truly a glycogen window where carbs are absorbed by muscles more completely and efficiently when taken immediately post training? Or will any time that day after training suffice?

In short, the sooner you get carbs into your system the sooner the glycogen stores will be replenished. However, restoring the glycogen stores sooner does not provide an advantage to muscle synthesis. IMO, it makes sense to his a "carb window" if you are planning on working out multiple times per day and six hour muscle glycogen content is important. If you are working out once per day, then it doesn't matter when you receive your carbs. Let the down votes commence.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17609259

"In conclusion, coingestion of carbohydrate during recovery does not further stimulate postexercise muscle protein synthesis when ample protein is ingested."

http://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8455450

"Total force production, preexercise muscle glycogen content, and degree of depletion (-40.6 and -44.3 mmol.kg-1 wet weight) were not significantly different between H2O and CHO trials.???

http://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21131864

???The concurrent ingestion of 50 g of CHO with 25 g of protein did not stimulate mixed MPS or inhibit MPB more than 25 g of protein alone either at rest or after resistance exercise???

Ba99a15e6bf870b81286791617050593

(671)

on December 05, 2012
at 06:12 AM

by the way - two Jakes here. Jake & jake.

Medium avatar

(2338)

on December 04, 2012
at 03:54 AM

CD, this study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17095924 goes directly against what you are saying.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on December 04, 2012
at 04:19 PM

I think you (1) have only read the abstract and not the actual paper; (2) Grossly misrepresenting my position, I have only suggested that there is not a glucose window. Every study I linked to compares protein+glucose to protein alone. There is a protein window, there is not a glucose window; (3) are putting too much stock in a single blind 23 person study where the individuals being studied knew whether they were being given the supplements. AND only 17 of the participants completed the study!!!

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on December 04, 2012
at 04:20 PM

Where did jake's comment go?

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on December 04, 2012
at 02:42 PM

animaleater, I am not saying go without carbs PWO. I am saying it is not necessary. I think you need to do what works best for you. N=1 is the only way to know!

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 04, 2012
at 05:59 AM

CD, Jake, love the healthy discourse! today im experimenting with scenario #3: trained at 11am fasted, 12pm whey and bcaa shake only, still fasting now, its 3pm, will eat half my lean beef and 15g fish oil for fast breaker shortly (3:30ish), figure these few hours after training im fat burning, whey\bcaa stops catabolism, then after work around 8pm ill eat all my sweet potatoes and the rest of my beef. so im trying your recommendation CD, and the same was recommended by my paleo climbing partner who does this. wondering how itll feel with my carbs so long after my workout.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 03, 2012
at 11:05 PM

CD, I read all those studies before I posted the question. I train every other day, so glycogen isn't my concern. I'm talking about plain old higher efficiency of absorption preferentially by muscles over other tissues (fat, brain, liver). I have personally felt the physical difference (felt better) when I eat carbs while still sweating. They absorb. When I eat them hours later, my brain gets then glucose as I FEEL the carbs as lightheaded-ness and an overall empty feeling; immediately PWO they feel great. So I'm wondering about THAT part of the science.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 05, 2012
at 05:15 AM

N=1 wise, yesterday i tried scenario #3; wo fasted at 11, whey and bcaa only pwo at 12, lean beef and 15g fish oil at 15, carbs and more lean beef at 21:00. honestly all day felt great. i felt better after my wo than when i carb load pwo. i reiterate, im concerned if there is a window for improved glucose uptake by the muscle preferentially, NOT whether or not carbs help you grow muscle when eaten immediately pwo.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on December 04, 2012
at 01:22 AM

I'm the opposite. If I eat carbs right after workout I feel bloated and nauseous. The science says there is not an optimal window for muscle synthesis. If it works for you, do it, but don't force it if it doesn't feel right. Chalk this one up to personal preference.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on December 04, 2012
at 02:41 PM

jake, that study does not refute any of the studies I presented. That study shows that a combination of protein/creatine/glucose is superior when given pre/post exercise than when nothing is provided. The studies I linked to take it one step further and show that protein alone does as well as protein+glucose. It is very well accepted that protein has a PWO. But, based on the preponderance of scientific evidence, glucose does not have a PWO. So yes, something is better than nothing, that doesn't disprove my assertion that there is not a "carb window" *required for optimal muscle synthesis.

Medium avatar

(2338)

on December 04, 2012
at 03:59 PM

I think you oversimplified the study I presented. It showed that there is an optimal time window to consume nutrients which you asserted was untrue. The study looked at the timing of the supplement, either around the workout or after waking and before bed. There was a significant difference. You have said many times that as long as you get nutrients at some point during the day it shouldn't make any difference but this study clearly shows otherwise. The study has less to do with what nutrients specifically are consumed and more to do with the timing of those nutrients.

3ce6a0d24be025e2f2af534545bdd1d7

(26217)

on December 04, 2012
at 04:19 PM

The authors even state, *"The major finding of this study was that after 10 wk of training, supplementation before and after each workout resulted in significantly greater improvements... compared with a matched group who had consumed the same supplement at times outside of the pre- and postworkout time frames."* -- That is supplementation is valuable -- NOT a specific macro which their study did not investigate.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 05, 2012
at 05:09 AM

cd, not sure where jakes comments went. i understand that carbs are not nec for muscle synthesis. i was vlc keto and lift recovery was just fine. my issue is glucose ABSORPTION efficiency. this post is about when to eat carbs so they go into the muscle instead of fat, or brain tissues in overdose. i want to know if there is a window where glucose from carbs will go into the muscles better. if i wait until night to eat carbs when my wo is noon, will they absorb preferentially into muscle as efficiently?

2
Ba99a15e6bf870b81286791617050593

(671)

on December 03, 2012
at 12:06 PM

This is exactly where I'm at right now, so I can't provide a response. I will say that I have a lot more respect for Kiefer after Robb Wolf featured him on his podcast. I haven't read Carb Backloading simply because the price is exorbitant, and then it's a bit difficult to take seriously someone whose website is "Dangerously Hardcore." That said, perspective changed after hearing the dude talk. Only wish that he'd sell his stuff for less.

Just in the past couple of weeks I've been non-scientifically experimenting and mixing the two. I'm already around 6-7%BF so the only differences I typically notice are in the mirror the next morning and how my body feels - scale doesn't change too much. I work out fasted around 11. As it stands, I've been going lower carb for the PWO meal (maybe 25% of days carbs - beets, butternut, bananas) and then backloading at night (white/sweet potatoes and occasionally a big delicious bowl of gluten free rice chex). As far as comparison to more strict LG protocol, I have to say I'm enjoying the carb backloading. Far less fatigue in the PWO meal in the afternoon, and then I feel I can really dig in at night before bed. Kiefer is more focused on high-GI carbs though, and as I've said, I've not read his specific recommendations.

Mess around. See what feels good. But there is something about noshing carbs at night that just feels a bit better than at 12:00.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 03, 2012
at 01:10 PM

And I listened to that podcast too. He sounds legit.

Ba99a15e6bf870b81286791617050593

(671)

on December 03, 2012
at 02:22 PM

Is the book worth it? I like the new paradigm of having 'Versions' and getting constant updates. But $60? That's four paperbacks, at least. Unless he's updating it constantly I'd be fine having something to hold in my hand. +1 to Berkhan for doing everything free.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 03, 2012
at 10:55 PM

Meal timing wise, Martin set me free. Eat between 12-8pm. I prefer two meals usually, one once a week. Easy. Martin talked about the late nite eating thing too: http://www.leangains.com/2011/06/is-late-night-eating-better-for-fat.html?m=1 As for the CBL book, it was too much money for the content. My buddy and I split it. He's doing what you are btw; fasting till 6, workout, CBL carb feed. I work 1-8~9pm, so Martin's 11am fasted training works for me. Sat-Monday tho I could try the above. But I wonder about my energy level doing that. Ill try a protein only lunch beforehand.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 03, 2012
at 12:28 PM

Awesome response. I have his book. It's ok. Lot if scientific support for his ideas, but little do and don't specifics. My buddy who's doing what we're doing says the same about eating his carbs at nite...feels good. My catch is I feel personally that carbs are absorbed better while you're still sweating from exertion. And if I do delay them till nite, what about just protein and a tad of fat only for PWO meal. Seems like to get any PWO carbs shuts off fat burning, so makes sense to keep it keto until nite load, or just get it over with and utilize PWO higher absorption efficiency.

Ba99a15e6bf870b81286791617050593

(671)

on December 04, 2012
at 06:07 AM

Do you CBL on rest days? That's the other thing I've been considering, as Kiefer advocates it as prep for the next days workout. That's where CBL and LG clash a bit because Berkhan seems more about recovery and Kiefer is a bit ambiguous on that. I know he suggests 'look in the mirror' as his guide but that seems a bit ambiguous. Especially for a guy who actually sounds really carb-phobic most of the time.

Ba99a15e6bf870b81286791617050593

(671)

on December 05, 2012
at 06:15 AM

And out of curiosity - anyone tried beer as part of a CBL? Gluten-free or no? I haven't fully enjoyed an IPA since going paleo over a year ago, but I'm wondering if a 24 hour fast with CBL might make me needy enough that I can process it w/out any detriment. Or even just a little detriment if it's a DIPA.

Ba99a15e6bf870b81286791617050593

(671)

on December 03, 2012
at 02:19 PM

Yea, hence my 25% right after the meal and more later in the day. But that makes me feel like I'm in a bit of meal-timing limbo. One thing I found interesting in the podcast is a study he references showing even if you're not doing any resistance training, concentrating carbs at night leads to improvements in body comp. He seems pretty adamant that there's no hormonal advantages to the the afternoon workout, which is interesting given the bulk of evidence for fasted training. The other thing I've been trying and has been working well? Skipping lunch, too, lift in the afternoon, and then gorge.

Ba99a15e6bf870b81286791617050593

(671)

on December 05, 2012
at 06:09 AM

I'm with you on all points. I feel like that's what it should most often come down to. Shouldn't you be LOOKING at whomever the advice is coming from? Which is why it amazes me that so many people go to Dr. Weil to lose weight...

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 04, 2012
at 11:43 PM

No I do NOT CBL on rest days. I think Martin is the authority here. Look at the pics of Martin vs Keifer's clients: the former are way more ripped, the latter bigger. I want ripped. I've ALWAYS felt carbs are awful for me pre training and excellent post training! Anyway I never have a problem summoning power on training days so what's the point?

1
9f54852ea376e8e416356f547611e052

(2957)

on December 04, 2012
at 12:40 AM

Just earlier today I was watching this 97 minute roundtable with Alan Aragon and someone named Eric Helms, and they addressed this (around 55 minute mark). TLDW: it's better to consume carbs in the evening. Also, glycogen store refilling is a non-issue for weight lifters as CD said above, discussed earlier in the talk.

Really good talk, mostly about protein needs, and despite the length (there's part 2) there's very little fluff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFObr7rc1kA

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 05, 2012
at 05:43 AM

Thanks ill watch it. Glycogen optimization isn't my concern...it's glucose going into the place I want it to go that's my concern (muscle, instead of fat or brain tissues).

0
B84597b7853f695c90593a6dc659078a

on December 03, 2012
at 04:22 PM

Please note Leangains isn't just training fasted at midday, there are various other protocols that work (click link). I personally used Leangains whilst working out in the evening (6pm) with a single pre workout meal at 2pm consisting of just protein and trace carbs (large salad), followed by a large two part carb heavy post workout meal.

I went from 88kg to 78kg over approx 4 months with increases in strength and muscle - note this was before going paleo and hence included beans, dairy and occasional grains. I still use basic LG principles (IF 16/8, CBL, RPT), but haven't calorie counted for a good few months, maintaining a good weight of 80kg ish and strong compound lifts.

I intend to give Leangains a proper go with paleo in the near future and will experiment with a protein/fat meal pre workout and carb load in the evening. I did notice that it was pretty difficult consuming 400+g carbs on purely paleo within 1-2 meals!

B84597b7853f695c90593a6dc659078a

(130)

on December 04, 2012
at 09:05 AM

Yes the one pre workout meal scenario worked really well for me; on a mild cut with a lightly active multiplier, I was consuming approx 400g carbs. Now I'll be looking to recomp with 80-90% paleo, roughly measuring macros. Last night after some heavy deadlifts I made an awesome sweet potato and parsnip mash with some lean steak strips :)

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 04, 2012
at 12:06 AM

I know there are other LG protocols; Martin just recommends midday fasted training. Your protocol sounds like my scenario 3 above. I've used that when I go to the rock climbing gym in the afternoon; lean beef pre, climb, more lean beef and rice after climbing. You did 400g carbs on a cut cycle? I do 230g at 64kg.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 05, 2012
at 05:40 AM

Yesterday I wo fasted 11am, whey/bcaa pwo 12pm, lean beef/fish oil 3pm, lean beef/sweet potatoes (230g carb) 9pm. Felt great.

-1
Ed7403e397077dd1acdbf25c7f6e56ce

on December 04, 2012
at 12:51 AM

The overall conclusion I'm reaching is that if you're not overeating, and everything you're eating is balanced and efficient then your body will just put it where it needs to go. I could be wrong of course. Lol, no help I guess.

Ed7403e397077dd1acdbf25c7f6e56ce

(3452)

on December 07, 2012
at 03:55 PM

Anybody care to explain?

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