1

votes

Religious requirements to eat grain and the Paleo diet

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created April 09, 2012 at 10:33 PM

I have to eat bread at 3 meals every weekend and on a few other days throughout the year. What do you recommend for maintaining a Paleo-centric diet during the rest of the week to try and offset the obligatory carb intake each weekend?

C1e224cddefc9c865c47409fd6fe801b

(140)

on July 01, 2012
at 09:23 AM

Exactly. If you don't agree with something, re-interpret it and say that this is what the original authors meant. This is what's been done for millenia.

3b34c695739b25bf48c76a67533f86c7

(53)

on April 17, 2012
at 07:49 PM

You too @sunshinestarr! Thanks. It was really nice.

3b34c695739b25bf48c76a67533f86c7

(53)

on April 17, 2012
at 07:48 PM

Thanks @sunshinestarr. It was really nice.

3558d8feb56bc681144f87e67140f885

on April 14, 2012
at 05:49 PM

(By the way, I hope you had a great Pesach!)

3b34c695739b25bf48c76a67533f86c7

(53)

on April 12, 2012
at 04:00 PM

Yep EBG. I am sure you're right. I just emailed him and will discuss it tonight before the last days of Passover start tonight!

3b34c695739b25bf48c76a67533f86c7

(53)

on April 12, 2012
at 03:34 PM

Standard procedure for celiacs is to drink a second cup of wine or grape juice. 2 of my wife's siblings do this now and I will probably ask my Rabbi about it also. I like your idea primallykosher. Thank you!

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on April 12, 2012
at 03:20 PM

There's also the oft-quoted 1% figure when it comes to celiac and gluten-intolerance. It's easy to blame wheat/gluten for all sorts of problems (and it probably does cause some problems). It makes little logical sense that the majority of people are gluten-intolerant and yet we've been eating it for a few millennia largely without issue.

3558d8feb56bc681144f87e67140f885

on April 12, 2012
at 03:00 PM

Tzuriel, you sound like a religious Jew, like myself. We occasionally make gluten free oat bread (occasionally because I still have not found a recipe to my liking) and on other days, we use "double kiddush" which our rabbi says is ok to do. Drink twice the amount of kiddush and you commence with the meal as normal. You may want to ask your rabbi! :-)

B1076248dde479773e75044818e1878c

(458)

on April 11, 2012
at 09:16 AM

Being overweight IS being ill. Don't discount your body telling you that it can't take the carb overload.

D811808d3bfa5aebc7a1bd971fb6375b

on April 11, 2012
at 03:37 AM

Wow, interesting! That's the first I've heard of it being a requirement, and I grew up Jewish and even went to an Orthodox school for several years. :P I would speak to your rabbi about it, since they may offer up some work-around (i.e. perhaps the symbolism of eating a bread-like food is more important than eating the actual grain, and you can do with some gluten-free bread). We are all gluten-intolerant to some degree, and I seriously doubt you, your rabbi, and/or God wouldn't allow some leniency in the matter of eating wheat.

D811808d3bfa5aebc7a1bd971fb6375b

on April 11, 2012
at 03:32 AM

That's the first I've heard of it being a requirement, Tzuriel, and I grew up Jewish and even went to an Orthodox school for several years. Interesting! I would speak to your rabbi about it, since they may offer up some work-around (i.e. perhaps the symbolism of eating a bread-like food is more important than eating the actual grain). We are all gluten-intolerant to some degree, and I seriously doubt you, your rabbi, and/or God wouldn't allow some leniency in the matter of eating wheat.

80890193d74240cab6dda920665bfb6c

(1528)

on April 11, 2012
at 03:21 AM

Hi Tzuriel, I'd suggest you go get yourself tested for gluten intolerance, esp. if folks in your family who are. It's often genetic. With this fact in mind, I'd want to know for sure either way.

C4f1a0c70c4e0dea507c2e346c036bbd

on April 11, 2012
at 03:20 AM

Spelt might be. You have to see how it effects you. I would still at some point try at least a month off of all grains. And than try reintroducing them for Shabbas. If you do have a severe reaction from reintroduction I'm sure religiously you can get around from having to use wheat than. I'm curious what the standard procedure is for celiacs.

3b34c695739b25bf48c76a67533f86c7

(53)

on April 11, 2012
at 02:56 AM

It's not making me ill. I'm trying to lose weight and want to cut out all the carbs I can

3b34c695739b25bf48c76a67533f86c7

(53)

on April 11, 2012
at 02:56 AM

The piece is about the size that would displace the liquid held within a medium egg shell For more Paleo hacks: http://paleohacks.com/questions/110907/religious-requirements-to-eat-grain-and-the-paleo-diet#ixzz1rhG8byhX

3b34c695739b25bf48c76a67533f86c7

(53)

on April 11, 2012
at 02:55 AM

I'm eating the smallest amount I can now. It's one piece. The piece is about the size that would displace the liquid held within a medium egg shell.

3b34c695739b25bf48c76a67533f86c7

(53)

on April 11, 2012
at 02:53 AM

As far as I know, I am not gluten intolerant. I am trying to eliminate carbs but I just read above that gluten is the issue here. Thanks for the link Wowza. Rabbi Cohen is someone I've trusted for many years. I have family members who are gluten intolerant and they only eat gluten free food. It's a completely acceptable diet for Kosher consumers

3b34c695739b25bf48c76a67533f86c7

(53)

on April 11, 2012
at 02:50 AM

Yep. Kosher bread can be made from these grains. Quinoa is not an option for me. So are spelt and rye better than wheat?

3b34c695739b25bf48c76a67533f86c7

(53)

on April 11, 2012
at 02:49 AM

Torah Observant Jew, Jen. There are requirements over the Jewish Sabbath to eat three meals. "Meals" here are defined by eating actual bread. The bread I eat is homemade and if I eat out, bringin my own is completely acceptable. It is an actual requirement under Torah observance, Epic Beauty Guide.

3b34c695739b25bf48c76a67533f86c7

(53)

on April 11, 2012
at 02:45 AM

It can be any kind of bread, basically. Maybe gluten free is a good option.

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on April 10, 2012
at 11:16 PM

I'd love a link to that.

3eca93d2e56dfcd768197dc5a50944f2

(11697)

on April 10, 2012
at 07:57 PM

Actually, Matt, the vast majority of people are gluten-intolerant and they don't know about it. New research from celiac doctors (there are videos on vimeo/YT about it, and articles) say that 7 out of 10 people are gluten-intolerant without knowing it, because their symptoms are not classic toilet-related ones.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on April 10, 2012
at 03:02 PM

Gluten intolerance is a spectrum. If you aren't overtly symptomatic, you're largely gluten-tolerant. If you have autoimmunity issues from eating gluten, then you are gluten intolerant. Look around you, the majority of folks are largely gluten-tolerant and asymptomatic.

D5d982a898721d3392c85f951d0bf0aa

(2417)

on April 10, 2012
at 02:45 PM

But tons of people just aren't symptomatic, Matt. The immune system impact matters even if you're not stuck on the toilet or covered in a rash.

C4f1a0c70c4e0dea507c2e346c036bbd

on April 10, 2012
at 12:07 PM

Challah can be made of those grains though and I believe still be kosher for ceremonial purposes.

07c86972a3bea0b0dc17752e9d2f5642

(3162)

on April 10, 2012
at 05:07 AM

somehow this posted in a different thread than I intended! How do you delete?

80890193d74240cab6dda920665bfb6c

(1528)

on April 10, 2012
at 03:50 AM

I think the issue is challah, which most argue can only be made of wheat, spelt, rye, barley or oats. Tho' there might be an out for quinoa, actually, depending on your whose rulings you follow.

1296f5fecd084f101d7c5fbe013f07eb

(1213)

on April 10, 2012
at 02:18 AM

Celiac or just intolerance? If it's the latter, *how* intolerant? Is it possible to just take a tiny, ceremonial bite?

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on April 10, 2012
at 01:58 AM

Not everybody is as gluten-intolerant as Robb Wolf is.

Medium avatar

(19479)

on April 09, 2012
at 11:43 PM

Is it required to be "wheat bread" or just bread? There are plenty of gluten free options (grain or non grain) that would make for "better" bread options.

D811808d3bfa5aebc7a1bd971fb6375b

on April 09, 2012
at 11:28 PM

Sounds like Tzuriel may be Jewish...I recognize those "bread patterns" from my dad's side of the family (all conservative Jewish folks). I always politely refuse any invitation to eat the customary challah and matzoh, and no one bats an eye. It's definitely not a requirement, but certainly a tradition and something that people may raise an eyebrow at, at first.

901d843c6a01089575ef1751a9e6e9fd

(686)

on April 09, 2012
at 11:21 PM

You don't "have" to eat bread. You *choose* to eat bread.

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12 Answers

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3
C4f1a0c70c4e0dea507c2e346c036bbd

on April 10, 2012
at 02:34 AM

You could also try spelt, teff, and eikhorn grains. They fall under kosherut rules if that's what your looking for. I personally tried spelt recently and had problems but I'm sensitive to a ton of foods.

3b34c695739b25bf48c76a67533f86c7

(53)

on April 11, 2012
at 02:50 AM

Yep. Kosher bread can be made from these grains. Quinoa is not an option for me. So are spelt and rye better than wheat?

C4f1a0c70c4e0dea507c2e346c036bbd

on April 10, 2012
at 12:07 PM

Challah can be made of those grains though and I believe still be kosher for ceremonial purposes.

80890193d74240cab6dda920665bfb6c

(1528)

on April 10, 2012
at 03:50 AM

I think the issue is challah, which most argue can only be made of wheat, spelt, rye, barley or oats. Tho' there might be an out for quinoa, actually, depending on your whose rulings you follow.

C4f1a0c70c4e0dea507c2e346c036bbd

on April 11, 2012
at 03:20 AM

Spelt might be. You have to see how it effects you. I would still at some point try at least a month off of all grains. And than try reintroducing them for Shabbas. If you do have a severe reaction from reintroduction I'm sure religiously you can get around from having to use wheat than. I'm curious what the standard procedure is for celiacs.

3b34c695739b25bf48c76a67533f86c7

(53)

on April 12, 2012
at 03:34 PM

Standard procedure for celiacs is to drink a second cup of wine or grape juice. 2 of my wife's siblings do this now and I will probably ask my Rabbi about it also. I like your idea primallykosher. Thank you!

best answer

1
A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on April 10, 2012
at 04:51 AM

Are you worried about the carbohydrates or the gluten? I would think you have more to worry about with the gluten. Like the other people here I would suggest looking for a way out of eating bread if you feel bad eating it. However, if you still feel the need to consume wheat for your religion, neither I nor the other P-hackers can stop you. So if you are going to consume gluten containing bread, here are some possible suggestions that may help mitigate the negative effects of gluten.

  1. For gluten to cause problems, the gliadin peptide must be undigested. This isn't hard as human enzymes typically suck at digesting it. So some people supplement with enzymes that improve digestion of gluten. (none of these should be considered 100% effective and celiacs shouldn't view these as an alternative to complete gluten avoidance).

  2. Immunoglobulin A (IgA) antibodies are produced (among other mucosal linings) in the intestines and stomach. IgA seems to mop up antigens, potentially preventing them from causing damage. So IgA might be helpful when you consume gluten. IgA levels can be lowered due to infections, stress, and poor nutrition.

  3. Probiotic bacteria may have a huge role in preventing negative effects from gluten. There are some studies discussing the direct effects (see here and here). The very awesome Lucas Tafur discussed a study which suggested two strains of gut colonizing Rothia bacteria may have a role in improving gluten digestion (going along with #1). In the long term, bacteria may also have a role in teaching our immune system to respond to gluten in a more relaxed way. Chris Kresser's recent post on dirt discussed the hygeine hypothesis, and a quote from the post: "our general avoidance of dirt, bacteria, and other infectious agents may be causing our under-stimulated immune system to become overreactive to benign antigen". There's a lot of information there, so chex it out. A lot of recommendations to be taken from this, but one is to avoid unnecessary antibiotics!

  4. Transforming growth factor beta (TGF-b) is a complicated protein which some have suggested may prevent an inappropriate immune response to things like gluten. I found this article which cites Chris Masterjohn as saying TGF-b is upregulated by vitamin A. Also (again I'm citing Masterjohn) TGF-b2 is found in milk, especially when raw.

  5. Inflammation of the gut may increases the chances of development of celiac disease or gluten intolerance. This is of course a huge issue with numerous suggestions (as far as prevention and cause), but it sounds like glucosamine might be especially good.

  6. Avoid a leaky gut. A permeable intestinal tract might allow gliadin peptides to get into the blood and potentially cause havoc on more parts of our body than just our intestines. Get that gut biofilm in order (so says Dr. Art Ayers). If your gut is already a bit damaged, I've heard zinc, pantothenic acid and vitamin C are good for repair of the mucosal lining. There's probably a lot more than it out there on that issue.

While this isn't a comprehensive list, here is a summary of my suggestions to avoid damage from gluten if you must consume bread: take enzymes, keep your IgA levels ready for action, eat your probiotics (and dirt?), avoid antibiotics unnecessarily, keep TGF-b levels high, avoid inflammation, especially of the gut, and avoid or heal a leaky gut. You can of course get really technical with all this, but I think you get a lot of these eating healthy paleo diet (with plenty of liver, fermented foods, and raw milk if you tolerate it) and living an active stress, free life! Hope this helps you or anyone else.

Well this was a longer answer than I had planned. Oh well. I enjoy talking about gluten.

4
65bf1ca7071028018c6d8305d0ddcd76

(3049)

on April 09, 2012
at 10:55 PM

Please don't take this as me being culturally insensitive, I am genuinely curious: what makes eating bread mandatory in this religion? Is it consumed as part of a ceremony, or ritual, or is it tradition to share it at meals? The reason I ask is to help determine if there is any opportunity for you to bring your own home baked bread to share as an alternative, allowing you to participate without compromising your diet or religion.

D811808d3bfa5aebc7a1bd971fb6375b

on April 09, 2012
at 11:28 PM

Sounds like Tzuriel may be Jewish...I recognize those "bread patterns" from my dad's side of the family (all conservative Jewish folks). I always politely refuse any invitation to eat the customary challah and matzoh, and no one bats an eye. It's definitely not a requirement, but certainly a tradition and something that people may raise an eyebrow at, at first.

3b34c695739b25bf48c76a67533f86c7

(53)

on April 11, 2012
at 02:49 AM

Torah Observant Jew, Jen. There are requirements over the Jewish Sabbath to eat three meals. "Meals" here are defined by eating actual bread. The bread I eat is homemade and if I eat out, bringin my own is completely acceptable. It is an actual requirement under Torah observance, Epic Beauty Guide.

D811808d3bfa5aebc7a1bd971fb6375b

on April 11, 2012
at 03:32 AM

That's the first I've heard of it being a requirement, Tzuriel, and I grew up Jewish and even went to an Orthodox school for several years. Interesting! I would speak to your rabbi about it, since they may offer up some work-around (i.e. perhaps the symbolism of eating a bread-like food is more important than eating the actual grain). We are all gluten-intolerant to some degree, and I seriously doubt you, your rabbi, and/or God wouldn't allow some leniency in the matter of eating wheat.

D811808d3bfa5aebc7a1bd971fb6375b

on April 11, 2012
at 03:37 AM

Wow, interesting! That's the first I've heard of it being a requirement, and I grew up Jewish and even went to an Orthodox school for several years. :P I would speak to your rabbi about it, since they may offer up some work-around (i.e. perhaps the symbolism of eating a bread-like food is more important than eating the actual grain, and you can do with some gluten-free bread). We are all gluten-intolerant to some degree, and I seriously doubt you, your rabbi, and/or God wouldn't allow some leniency in the matter of eating wheat.

3b34c695739b25bf48c76a67533f86c7

(53)

on April 12, 2012
at 04:00 PM

Yep EBG. I am sure you're right. I just emailed him and will discuss it tonight before the last days of Passover start tonight!

3
3eca93d2e56dfcd768197dc5a50944f2

(11697)

on April 09, 2012
at 10:45 PM

Even a tiny bit of bread can damage the gut if you're gluten-intolerant. Robb Wolf said that even a bit of gluten can stay in the gut for up to 14 days, and have an impact to the immune system for up to 6 months. So it's your choice what you want to do.

Personally, I simply do not follow the religious traditions regarding food because they're much newer traditions than the original human diet. I'm pretty sure God would be more angry at me if I don't help my fellow man than if I eat or if I don't eat some food.

D5d982a898721d3392c85f951d0bf0aa

(2417)

on April 10, 2012
at 02:45 PM

But tons of people just aren't symptomatic, Matt. The immune system impact matters even if you're not stuck on the toilet or covered in a rash.

3eca93d2e56dfcd768197dc5a50944f2

(11697)

on April 10, 2012
at 07:57 PM

Actually, Matt, the vast majority of people are gluten-intolerant and they don't know about it. New research from celiac doctors (there are videos on vimeo/YT about it, and articles) say that 7 out of 10 people are gluten-intolerant without knowing it, because their symptoms are not classic toilet-related ones.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on April 10, 2012
at 01:58 AM

Not everybody is as gluten-intolerant as Robb Wolf is.

A2c38be4c54c91a15071f82f14cac0b3

(12682)

on April 10, 2012
at 11:16 PM

I'd love a link to that.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on April 10, 2012
at 03:02 PM

Gluten intolerance is a spectrum. If you aren't overtly symptomatic, you're largely gluten-tolerant. If you have autoimmunity issues from eating gluten, then you are gluten intolerant. Look around you, the majority of folks are largely gluten-tolerant and asymptomatic.

32f5749fa6cf7adbeb0b0b031ba82b46

(41747)

on April 12, 2012
at 03:20 PM

There's also the oft-quoted 1% figure when it comes to celiac and gluten-intolerance. It's easy to blame wheat/gluten for all sorts of problems (and it probably does cause some problems). It makes little logical sense that the majority of people are gluten-intolerant and yet we've been eating it for a few millennia largely without issue.

2
80890193d74240cab6dda920665bfb6c

(1528)

on April 10, 2012
at 03:42 AM

Halacha doesn't require that you make yourself sick to fulfill it. So if you are gluten intolerant, you have an out there. Have you tried oats? How do they affect you? Oats are acceptable according to Rashi but not Rambam, so that might be another path. Anyway, the whole thing is discussed in light of Halacha here: http://www.crcweb.org/kosher_articles/Celiac%20-%20A%20Guide%20to%20Halachic%20Observance%20(JoHaCS%202010).pdf

80890193d74240cab6dda920665bfb6c

(1528)

on April 11, 2012
at 03:21 AM

Hi Tzuriel, I'd suggest you go get yourself tested for gluten intolerance, esp. if folks in your family who are. It's often genetic. With this fact in mind, I'd want to know for sure either way.

3b34c695739b25bf48c76a67533f86c7

(53)

on April 11, 2012
at 02:53 AM

As far as I know, I am not gluten intolerant. I am trying to eliminate carbs but I just read above that gluten is the issue here. Thanks for the link Wowza. Rabbi Cohen is someone I've trusted for many years. I have family members who are gluten intolerant and they only eat gluten free food. It's a completely acceptable diet for Kosher consumers

2
5b69a02dadcae753771921d913909215

(1457)

on April 10, 2012
at 12:36 AM

Are the doctors in your area easy to bribe?... Would a doctor's note even work..?

Seriously though, for me, it seems to be a dose-response curve situation. I am sure there is more happening under the surface to my body, but sometimes I just don't feel like explaining why I am being "weird" to everyone in the room at the time. I have noticed that if I have a little bread, cookie, or something of the like in a small dose I remain perfectly fine (seemingly anyhow). However, if I have a plate of pasta or mutiple "doses" of gluten-laden food in sequential meals, that I feel like crap for at least a day afterwards, if not more, and it takes me a while to get that small craving of "who cares? just eat it!" back out of my system.

So I guess my answer is keep the dose as small as possible and if possible (if you deem it necessary) come up with some "excuse" that everyone with an opinion that is important to you will "buy".

P.S. the real issue here is not with the carbs.. it's with a protein called gluten.

1
1d69e0750eff4463ccb623ff5ca0486f

on April 12, 2012
at 02:54 PM

Create a new religion. Pick some esisting Bible stuff that you agree with, leave out the stuff you don't and then make up some new stuff.

It's not like it hasn't been done before.

C1e224cddefc9c865c47409fd6fe801b

(140)

on July 01, 2012
at 09:23 AM

Exactly. If you don't agree with something, re-interpret it and say that this is what the original authors meant. This is what's been done for millenia.

1
E57d8e182251b61ccc6ada197c359d7e

on April 10, 2012
at 02:06 PM

This is an easy one. Eat it or don't. Its your religion and your body. You have heard all the suggestions which may or may not be true. Do what feels best for you and only you.

1
A905679417ee71c3f9e2d88964b3b1f0

(368)

on April 09, 2012
at 10:36 PM

can you eat just a tiny bite of bread?

3b34c695739b25bf48c76a67533f86c7

(53)

on April 11, 2012
at 02:55 AM

I'm eating the smallest amount I can now. It's one piece. The piece is about the size that would displace the liquid held within a medium egg shell.

0
07c86972a3bea0b0dc17752e9d2f5642

on April 10, 2012
at 05:03 AM

How about a yogurt drink? Thin some high quality yogurt from the creature of your choice with a little water to make it drinkable. I can't imagine almond or coconut milk is providing your daughter even a small fraction of the nutrition the milk was.

07c86972a3bea0b0dc17752e9d2f5642

(3162)

on April 10, 2012
at 05:07 AM

somehow this posted in a different thread than I intended! How do you delete?

0
B1076248dde479773e75044818e1878c

(458)

on April 09, 2012
at 10:58 PM

Just tell people you are gluten intolerant/sensitive and offer to bring your own version. http://www.elanaspantry.com/gluten-free-recipes/breads/

Surely people will understand if eating bread makes you ill!

B1076248dde479773e75044818e1878c

(458)

on April 11, 2012
at 09:16 AM

Being overweight IS being ill. Don't discount your body telling you that it can't take the carb overload.

3b34c695739b25bf48c76a67533f86c7

(53)

on April 11, 2012
at 02:56 AM

It's not making me ill. I'm trying to lose weight and want to cut out all the carbs I can

0
1d9af5db8833413037be3ac48964714f

on April 09, 2012
at 10:43 PM

Does anything less harmful than wheat flour count as bread? How much do you have to eat?

3b34c695739b25bf48c76a67533f86c7

(53)

on April 11, 2012
at 02:56 AM

The piece is about the size that would displace the liquid held within a medium egg shell For more Paleo hacks: http://paleohacks.com/questions/110907/religious-requirements-to-eat-grain-and-the-paleo-diet#ixzz1rhG8byhX

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