-2

votes

My arguments against paleo - reworked

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created July 09, 2011 at 9:59 PM

People here don't have a nutrition degree and real nutritionist don't advice people not to eat grains or dairy. No offense just my honest opinion.

I ate grains since forever and have no digestive issues and my bloodwork also shows no missing minerals or vitamins despite those "anti-nutrients". I think this is about a lifestyle and hobby, a way to feel part of a group and accomplished and not just diet

. No offense but i just don't believe it, grains actually are very rich in minerals vitamins and also fiber. You can't compare just calories cause those "superior " veggies are only low cal before you drip them in tons of fat like butter or olive oil, so don't compare vitamins per calorie, that's just stupid.

Also carbs are the bodies main source of energy not fat. I personally eat paleo plus oatmeal basically and also eat potatoes. The best lesson form paleo I got is cooking in the right fats, which fats are right for frying, regular oils are pretty much refined garbage.

And yes paleo is a healthy diet better then 95 % of diets cause it eliminates junk food, sugar and bad fats while it makes you eat lost of veggies, still I think there is no real proof that oatmeal or wild rice or potatoes aren't healthy, I work out intensively again and I feel like I benefit greatly from the complex carbs.

Our bodies have by average 400 grams of carbs (glucose I think) stored in our muscles and about 60 g in our livers. Carbs are beneficial. Low carb works great for many people in terms of fat loss cause it eliminates a lot of refined and crappy carb sources like bagels and cereal overall people actually decrease their calories by cutting out grains and dairy by a good bit and therefore lose fat. If you prove me wrong ok great, I didn't come here to hate.

There is also a very strong group thinking mentality, if you go to bodybuilding.com and tell people grains and carbs are bad you would get ridiculed , all this shows that there are a few hundred thousands users on the internet plain out wrong unless you want to tell me that both sides are right in exactly opposite claims - eating 200 g carbs of rice and oatmeal daily and on the other side claiming you should never eat them. That being said I know bodybuilding diets are intended to give big muscles and not be as healthy as possible.

Also obsessing over diet is also not healthy, it's not the only factor of success and happiness in life. I personally eat veggies, potatoes (I know they are veggies too), protein (meat, dairy, eggs, some nuts), a bowl oatmeal here and there and good fats (butter, virgin olive oils and the fat from the protein sources), I definitely eat less protein the bodybuilders with their gram per pound I don't think it's that healthy for my joints. So in the end I am similar to paleo with dairy just an occasional bowl of oatmeal in there, but it's about the principal.

This post got long but I know people on here are more intelligent and way less flaming then other internet forums so I think some will read it and English is actually my third language (I'm an Croatian born in Germany). This should be a fun discussion, If I am wrong I can accept it or at least we can agree to disagree and be respectful.

Cliff notes

  • I don't think whole grains are unhealthy

  • I think the body works mainly on carbs therefore we have about 400 g of carbs stored in our muscles and 60 g in our liver so I believe oatmeal, potatoes and wild rice are very beneficial especially for active individuals

  • this diet "works" for people cause of calorie reduction form eliminating grains and dairy and cutting out junk food and sweets not because unrefined grains, legumes or dairy are bad

  • paleo dieters enjoy being sophisticated and knowledgeable and being in a group , part of a team and it wouldn't be as special if they would just eat healthy by general standards including dairy and grains still with plenty of vegetables and their good fat sources (butter, lard, olive oil, nuts ect)

  • somebody is wrong on the internet, thousands of bodybuilding.com users or the growing paleo community cause directly opposing claims don't allow for both to be right - eating 200 g carbs from oatmeal and rice a day or saying you should never eat them

  • also I would assume 95 % of all doctors and nutritionists are not crazy and paloe eaters actually do eat to much saturated fat cause I don't think Gork had 1 pound of beef daily (considering the fat from lard and tallow added) and lots of butter / heavy cream and eggs, all that research is probably not just a conspiracy while I do agree that saturated fat is being demonized to some degree and i like my egg yolks, fry on butter and eat red meat

I hope I was clearer and more collected now, I would like you guys to comment on my beliefs on how paleo is unnecessary,that we benefit form complex carbs, that fat is not the bodies main energy source and just the things I claimed in the cliffs and that a big part of the paleo online community is fueled by group mentality thinking and a desire to be intelligent and part of something as opposed to just eating healthy as one part of life's aspects.

And I really need to stop misspelling cook lol, happened on facebook on a semi-celebrities status, I suggested him to become a paleo c*ck master, that was funny. But well my English is just at 90 % of native speakers I would assume (yeah I'm showing of a little bit ccc ).

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on March 12, 2012
at 06:59 AM

The fat burning enzymes can adapt to work more efficiently

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on March 12, 2012
at 05:33 AM

How many molecules of fat Vs. carbohydrate per second can the body process. I'm pretty sure glucose/second is a much higher octane.

6da7ce6a4a250c46a6e78b5b4e22da83

(987)

on July 09, 2011
at 11:12 PM

In my opinion, the argument that gluten causes autoimmune diseases seemed sound on its own, seems to harmonize with other facts (the high correlation between celiacs disease and autoimmune diseases; successful treatment by removing gluten; the lack of such diseases in pre-agricultural societies; etc...), Robb Wolf seems trustworthy and open minded to me (as does Kurt Harris and others), and I have not heard strong counter arguments. The OP didn't even seem aware of the argument against gluten, as pointing to lack of "digestive issues" as proof that grain is alright indicates.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on July 09, 2011
at 11:09 PM

Oh shoot! Kindly remember your jokes for the next similar post.

6da7ce6a4a250c46a6e78b5b4e22da83

(987)

on July 09, 2011
at 11:08 PM

This is a basic epistemological problem. How does one who is not a knower know who to trust? Obviously, one can not know all about medicine, law, and auto repair - and yet one has to choose doctors, lawyers, and mechanics. I'm not sure there's a simple answer to this. You have to do your best to listen to the various accounts, see which seem sound, which harmonize with other facts, and what is your sense for the trustworthiness of the proponents of each side of an argument. And then do your best to judge... (to be continued)

Be1dbd31e4a3fccd4394494aa5db256d

(17969)

on July 09, 2011
at 11:02 PM

But Kamal, I was going to respond and be really funny. :(

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on July 09, 2011
at 10:58 PM

Oliver-- I'm going to have to close this to prevent you from getting thumped anymore :) Take a good long look around here, as well as sites such as archevore.com, marksdailyapple.com, etc etc. Come back with any interesting, unique questions you think of!

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on July 09, 2011
at 10:57 PM

Olive-- I'm going to have to close this to prevent you from getting thumped anymore :) Take a good long look around here, as well as sites such as archevore.com, marksdailyapple.com, etc etc. Come back with any interesting, unique questions you think of!

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on July 09, 2011
at 10:56 PM

That's some pretty conceited stuff there Shari.

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on July 09, 2011
at 10:56 PM

That's some pretty conceited stuff their Shari.

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on July 09, 2011
at 10:55 PM

Every argument I ever see against gluten on this site is unfalsifiable for the average person. Yeah, so it does silent damage all your life until you get totally messed up. How am I supposed to believe that or not? It's unfalsifiable! Nothing in my current experience can prove or disprove it! You might as well have spoken to me in Russian (which I don't speak).

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on July 09, 2011
at 10:42 PM

There is not glory in fighting an unarmed man with all my guns loaded. Oliver makes himself too easy target to blow away. I'd like him to go load up his guns and then come back to do battle if he still feels the need.

B4e1fa6a8cf43d2b69d97a99dfca262c

(10255)

on July 09, 2011
at 10:29 PM

i absolutely believe that everything you wrote above is true; true for you. but your truth is not mine and difference between you and i is that i don't care if you believe me.

66974b2cb291799dcd661b7dec99a9e2

(11121)

on July 09, 2011
at 10:27 PM

Best answer to give him Shari :) I think most of what oliver believes is based on decades of flawed conventional wisdom. Just because people have been eating something for 100s or 1000s of years does not mean it is what is the best, most healthy, etc for the human organism.

1bd4ea62097aa99c8cbef8aa5d02db77

(448)

on July 09, 2011
at 10:18 PM

So paleo is wrong because you think that the people on one website are not nutritionists?

93f44e8673d3ea2294cce085ebc96e13

(10502)

on July 09, 2011
at 10:16 PM

Oliver -- you have a LOT of content here. Great. I applaud & encourage your skepticism. However, reword this into the form of a serious question or set of questions -- otherwise we'll delete or close this question.

367858aa5ea059472b9d0e093b6decff

(11)

on July 09, 2011
at 10:15 PM

I definitely do not know if fat or carbs are used as fuel but you always hear about carbs as the main energy source. Yes I remember reading or hearing that on high intensity activities like sprints the body uses more carbs while during long distance running more fat is used.Is bodyfat used the same way as dietary fat eaten ? Cause I do have probably enough fat stored to do a 3 day marathon

367858aa5ea059472b9d0e093b6decff

(11)

on July 09, 2011
at 10:14 PM

I definitely do not if fat or carbs are used as fuel but you always hear about carbs as energy source. Yes I remember reading or hearing that on high intensity activities like sprints the body uses more carbs while during long distance running more fat is used.Is bodyfat used the same way as dietary fat eaten ? Cause I do have probably enough fat stored to do a 3 day marathon.

21fd060d0796fdb8a4a990441e08eae7

(24543)

on July 09, 2011
at 10:08 PM

What I was hinting at before is that you might consider narrowing down the topic as well as making it a question. As it stands, this is a collection of about a dozen issues that have already been discussed on here. You can use the search bar in the upper right corner to check out some past posts. I don't have the heart to close you again, so try to maybe rework it one last time.

  • 367858aa5ea059472b9d0e093b6decff

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6 Answers

15
98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

on July 09, 2011
at 10:21 PM

Oliver, I started to respond to each of your points but ended up with pretty much the same answer to each so I stopped. My general answer to this entire post is that you appear to be ignorant of paleo principles in general and I would encourage you to read and study more, if you are so inclined, and see if you can't come to a better understanding of what the paleo way of eating is really about. You're condemning a system of food choices that you appear to know little about or at least have some seriously incorrect information about. I appreciate your desire to a healthy debate but I can't debate someone on a subject he doesn't seem to really know much about.

I wish you well on your journey.

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on July 09, 2011
at 10:56 PM

That's some pretty conceited stuff there Shari.

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on July 09, 2011
at 10:56 PM

That's some pretty conceited stuff their Shari.

98bf2ca7f8778c79cd3f6c962011cfdc

(24286)

on July 09, 2011
at 10:42 PM

There is not glory in fighting an unarmed man with all my guns loaded. Oliver makes himself too easy target to blow away. I'd like him to go load up his guns and then come back to do battle if he still feels the need.

66974b2cb291799dcd661b7dec99a9e2

(11121)

on July 09, 2011
at 10:27 PM

Best answer to give him Shari :) I think most of what oliver believes is based on decades of flawed conventional wisdom. Just because people have been eating something for 100s or 1000s of years does not mean it is what is the best, most healthy, etc for the human organism.

4
6da7ce6a4a250c46a6e78b5b4e22da83

(987)

on July 09, 2011
at 10:50 PM

Sometimes when someone makes an objection to an argument, they reveal they don't understand the position the are trying to argue against. I think your post does that.

First off, paleo is not necessarily low carb. Arguments about how many carbs are optimal are neither for or against a paleo diet. Second (and I posted this on the now closed version of this thread), whether you have "digestive issues" or not is irrelevant. The (admittedly tentative) hypothesis about how gluten causes autoimmune diseases does not require that one have "digestive issues". That is what makes gluten so problematic; you can eat grain for most of your life, feel fine, while the whole time the gluten is silently doing damage. Then one day you wake up with an autoimmune disease. At that point, the damage may be irreversible. In order to argue that grains are not harmful, you'd have to propose a more likely account of how autoimmune diseases are caused than the one implicating gluten.

I think you need to get a better grasp of what paleo means and why people believe it before you try to critique it.

6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on July 09, 2011
at 10:55 PM

Every argument I ever see against gluten on this site is unfalsifiable for the average person. Yeah, so it does silent damage all your life until you get totally messed up. How am I supposed to believe that or not? It's unfalsifiable! Nothing in my current experience can prove or disprove it! You might as well have spoken to me in Russian (which I don't speak).

6da7ce6a4a250c46a6e78b5b4e22da83

(987)

on July 09, 2011
at 11:12 PM

In my opinion, the argument that gluten causes autoimmune diseases seemed sound on its own, seems to harmonize with other facts (the high correlation between celiacs disease and autoimmune diseases; successful treatment by removing gluten; the lack of such diseases in pre-agricultural societies; etc...), Robb Wolf seems trustworthy and open minded to me (as does Kurt Harris and others), and I have not heard strong counter arguments. The OP didn't even seem aware of the argument against gluten, as pointing to lack of "digestive issues" as proof that grain is alright indicates.

6da7ce6a4a250c46a6e78b5b4e22da83

(987)

on July 09, 2011
at 11:08 PM

This is a basic epistemological problem. How does one who is not a knower know who to trust? Obviously, one can not know all about medicine, law, and auto repair - and yet one has to choose doctors, lawyers, and mechanics. I'm not sure there's a simple answer to this. You have to do your best to listen to the various accounts, see which seem sound, which harmonize with other facts, and what is your sense for the trustworthiness of the proponents of each side of an argument. And then do your best to judge... (to be continued)

4
64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on July 09, 2011
at 10:24 PM

You come off like a bit of an idiot when you make a post like this, so I'm just going to address a small part...

ATP can be thought of as the energy currency of our bodies. One molecule of glucose will produce 38 ATP. One molecule of fat will produce 463 ATP. Which sounds more efficient?

You especially sound like an idiot when you write about things happening "on facebook on a semi-celebrities status".

64433a05384cd9717c1aa6bf7e98b661

(15236)

on March 12, 2012
at 06:59 AM

The fat burning enzymes can adapt to work more efficiently

77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on March 12, 2012
at 05:33 AM

How many molecules of fat Vs. carbohydrate per second can the body process. I'm pretty sure glucose/second is a much higher octane.

3
36b7a2776d028dc8d5743e2e56ece34d

on July 09, 2011
at 10:09 PM

Fat is the bodies main energy source, it is basic biochemistry. If you didn't use fat to fuel the majority of your life we'd be screwed. That being said we use a fair number of carbs everyday too with more being used with high intensity exercise and long duration exercise.

Starch is good and it shouldn't be demonized. The arguments against grains are pretty weak and HG have used grains like wild rice as a staple. Potatoes are 100% paleo, most people agree on that.

I agree why you think paleo works. Average paleo theory is pretty weak in regards to "this is how it was", there is a lot of assumption making and conclusion bias is rampant. Everyone needs to do their own research or at least trust people who do real research without dogmas. People like Chris Masterjohn and Daniel Vitalis.

367858aa5ea059472b9d0e093b6decff

(11)

on July 09, 2011
at 10:15 PM

I definitely do not know if fat or carbs are used as fuel but you always hear about carbs as the main energy source. Yes I remember reading or hearing that on high intensity activities like sprints the body uses more carbs while during long distance running more fat is used.Is bodyfat used the same way as dietary fat eaten ? Cause I do have probably enough fat stored to do a 3 day marathon

367858aa5ea059472b9d0e093b6decff

(11)

on July 09, 2011
at 10:14 PM

I definitely do not if fat or carbs are used as fuel but you always hear about carbs as energy source. Yes I remember reading or hearing that on high intensity activities like sprints the body uses more carbs while during long distance running more fat is used.Is bodyfat used the same way as dietary fat eaten ? Cause I do have probably enough fat stored to do a 3 day marathon.

1
74c1777d7d39b053ca64c065dcdb0072

on July 09, 2011
at 10:23 PM

A couple easy points: Nutritionists have recommended all sorts of things. Be careful with everybody knows knowledge. There are plenty of nutritionists who have recommended every cleanses. There are lot of scientists into paleo. Should a statistician versed in big data really be discounted because he looked into the data?

Say for ease of math, your body can store 500 grams on carbohydrates. That would be 2000 That will not get you a day if you missed food. Mark Sisson did a nice article on this http://www.marksdailyapple.com/a-metabolic-paradigm-shift-fat-carbs-human-body-metabolism/.

The arguments for or against paleo should be done by studies and data. You cannot just say grains are good because they are. This is not a religion. We are more than willing to hear biological arguments or shown studies. Our knowledge will evolve. I doubt my diet today will be the same as 5 years from now.

0
6f2c00fcbf48c69f0ea212239b3e1178

on July 09, 2011
at 10:46 PM

Downvoted for the ridiculous nutritionist stuff, but at the very least I do agree that perhaps paleo works by accident. Here's a post of mine on the same subject. I made the same sort of point.

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