3

votes

Ketosis vs Just eating less

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created May 25, 2012 at 1:22 AM

I'm struggling to find what approach is right for me. Short term goal being dopping 5-10lbs of body fat, and long term being maintenance.

I've tried VLC to get into Ketosis but think I ever reached adaptation before trying something else. I end up eating more to try and satiate myself.

Is a keto diet better for people trying to lose a lot of weight? Would it be better to just eat less by eating more fruit/starches?

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on May 26, 2012
at 03:58 PM

I don't think it's impossible to lose weight by conscious caloric restriction, but it doesn't work for a lot of people, and for most that it does "work", it is temporary. So this answer is perhaps overstated. Low carb is neither necessary nor sufficient for fat loss in all cases.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on May 26, 2012
at 03:55 PM

Heh. Well, I can agree with that one. I get very upset when people criticize fat people, because there are so many factors to fatness, and some people can do everything right, and they are still going to be fat.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 26, 2012
at 12:25 AM

@ambimorph as a former significantly overweight person I can only report that is not impossible to lose weight by restricting calories. Actually it worked rather well. Maybe I should have said never take diet advice from Reader's Digest?

14e1dbdd25db00d2c9db36d6a695f6cb

(159)

on May 25, 2012
at 07:02 PM

ps, yeah, that muscle confusion thing I've read is BS (p90x). however, I like to cross train so I don't get bored with the same workouts.

14e1dbdd25db00d2c9db36d6a695f6cb

(159)

on May 25, 2012
at 07:00 PM

Sugar/fat combo is a vicious cycle...but I still fantasize about being able to eat that way...maybe part of being female??

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on May 25, 2012
at 06:14 PM

"Never take diet advice from a fat man." Right. Fat people have neither the ability to analyze evidence nor personal experience to learn from? How about never take diet advice from people who have never been significantly overweight?

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on May 25, 2012
at 06:11 PM

Ketotic state is not really a gradient. There is a qualitative difference between keto-adapted and not, and it is very important. Of course, your ketone level is a gradient, but both "mild" and "deep" ketosis are quite different from not ketosis.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on May 25, 2012
at 06:08 PM

No. If your liver glycogen is not depleted you will not go into ketosis. You may have some ketone bodies being produced, but this is not the same as ketosis.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on May 25, 2012
at 01:29 PM

Forever young is spot on. Eating under maintenance levels calorie-wise will put you into ketosis. That doesn't even matter though. Just eating under maintenance will cause you lose weight.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 25, 2012
at 12:31 PM

And if what you say is impossible then why am I 50 pounds lighter? It's not because I was smoking Tub's pixie dust about fructose.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 25, 2012
at 12:25 PM

Good idea about not eating high carb and fat together...this is SAD and high reward rolled together...easy to overeat because it results in gnawing hunger IMO....

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 25, 2012
at 12:19 PM

This is the best hack I've read on Paleohacks. I would only add that spot reduction of fat is difficult unless reduced eating is combined with directed exercise.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 25, 2012
at 12:17 PM

Never take diet advice from a fat man.

3b3a449b6705e9ec8b141d0bd07c1a64

(1489)

on May 25, 2012
at 05:03 AM

Yeah VLC for two months meant 10kg weight gain for me. Combo of both muscle and fat im sure. I'm ensuring I have a calorie deficit now though and will see how that fares :)

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 25, 2012
at 02:09 AM

Even if you are consuming significant quantities of carbs, if you are creating strong enough deficit of calories you will be in a mildly ketotic state.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on May 25, 2012
at 02:06 AM

Even if you are eating a relatively high carb diet, if you are creating a calorie deficit you will be in and out of ketosis.

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3 Answers

10
Fab409ac4a30957e3ed508514f7bff02

(295)

on May 25, 2012
at 03:51 AM

Dropping weight requires a caloric deficit, whether that is low or high carb doesn't matter.

http://www.ajcn.org/content/55/2/350.full.pdf

However, macro-nutrient composition, and even type of food (nutrient-dense vs not) can have a major impact on satiety.

http://www.gnolls.org/2407/when-satiety-fails-why-are-we-hungry-part-4/ (The whole series is interesting.)

Many people experience greater satiation with meals higher in protein and fat from real food. This allows low carbers to naturally create a caloric deficit while imposing little willpower, making it seem easy. Others may still eat too many calories even if low carb. Some people feel more sated with some carbs.

http://freetheanimal.com/2012/02/the-moderate-starchy-carbohydrate-experiment.html

Also, what works for a person with 25% body fat may not work well for the same person at 12% body fat.

Because of the wide range of experiences, it is best to give some different methods an honest try and see what works best for you (high/moderate/low carb, lots of fruit, less fruit, no fruit, dairy, no dairy, carb feeds based on activity, etc etc etc). Journals can be very helpful in this regard.

Basic ways of creating a calorie deficit: - Constant 20% caloric reduction - Intermittent Fasting but not making up for the lost meal calories - Exercise/activities to increase caloric expenditure - Combinations of the above

As you lose weight your BMR will go down (this is completely normal - a 300 lb man has a higher BMR than a 150 lb man). Be sure to figure out what you can eat at your new weight for maintenance or you will just gain it back.

If you are having a problem feeling hungry and your caloric deficit isn't ridiculous then try changing around macro-nutrients and food quality to see if it helps. Remember that habits take a little while to break - if you are used to eating breakfast and you try to fast through it, you will probably be hungry! You have to give yourself enough time to adapt to new things.

You are in medical "ketosis" when your body is producing some arbitrary number of ketones (I forgot the number offhand), but the ketotic state is a gradient, not an off/on switch. From a weight-loss perspective it's not a big deal whether you are in "deep" ketosis or "mild" ketosis. It's often useful if you have other conditions you are trying to clear up.

Also, it's good you made the distinction that it is body fat you are wanting to lose and not just body weight. Resistance training and eating adequate protein (1 gram of protein per lb of lean body weight would be enough) can help in this regard but I can't find my references.

I disagree with the notion that you need to "change it up" so that your body doesn't adapt (especially if it sounds like similar to "muscle confusion" ala p90x which is just marketing bull). You need to figure out how to work with your body and this often means learning what it is it's doing. There are good reasons to re-feed, carb cycle, etc. - it all depends on what you are doing, context matters.

Oh, and the last 5 - 10 lbs are usually the most difficult. There is good reason for this but this is already too long. Also, the above is mostly about weight-loss. If you have any conditions you want to try to remedy things get more complicated.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 25, 2012
at 12:19 PM

This is the best hack I've read on Paleohacks. I would only add that spot reduction of fat is difficult unless reduced eating is combined with directed exercise.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on May 25, 2012
at 06:11 PM

Ketotic state is not really a gradient. There is a qualitative difference between keto-adapted and not, and it is very important. Of course, your ketone level is a gradient, but both "mild" and "deep" ketosis are quite different from not ketosis.

2
14e1dbdd25db00d2c9db36d6a695f6cb

on May 25, 2012
at 02:35 AM

I've been trying to figure this one out myself, after seeing what everyone on here is saying about it. VLC did not work for me and I was faithful for almost 5 weeks.

I keep seeing how fasted exercise and carb re-feeds either once a week or post heavy exercise seem to work for some people. I think one of the theories is to change it up so your body doesn't adapt to one way or the other.

What I gather is this: keep it low carb, high fat/protein most of the time, when you do eat carbs, lower the fat intake that day.

I am also going to experiment with a slight caloric deficit most days, JUST in case I was taking in too many calories while VLC and that's why I was gaining BF.

Good luck!

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 25, 2012
at 12:25 PM

Good idea about not eating high carb and fat together...this is SAD and high reward rolled together...easy to overeat because it results in gnawing hunger IMO....

3b3a449b6705e9ec8b141d0bd07c1a64

(1489)

on May 25, 2012
at 05:03 AM

Yeah VLC for two months meant 10kg weight gain for me. Combo of both muscle and fat im sure. I'm ensuring I have a calorie deficit now though and will see how that fares :)

14e1dbdd25db00d2c9db36d6a695f6cb

(159)

on May 25, 2012
at 07:00 PM

Sugar/fat combo is a vicious cycle...but I still fantasize about being able to eat that way...maybe part of being female??

14e1dbdd25db00d2c9db36d6a695f6cb

(159)

on May 25, 2012
at 07:02 PM

ps, yeah, that muscle confusion thing I've read is BS (p90x). however, I like to cross train so I don't get bored with the same workouts.

0
22fd82abf435768244f8d074430cd1e6

(590)

on May 25, 2012
at 08:28 AM

Calorie restriction has not been proven to achieve weight loss: it is impossible to count calories. A lower carb approach is needed as you will find your

I highly recommend reading this article by Gary Taubes:

http://garytaubes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/WWGF-Readers-Digest-feature-Feb-2011.pdf

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on May 25, 2012
at 06:14 PM

"Never take diet advice from a fat man." Right. Fat people have neither the ability to analyze evidence nor personal experience to learn from? How about never take diet advice from people who have never been significantly overweight?

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 26, 2012
at 12:25 AM

@ambimorph as a former significantly overweight person I can only report that is not impossible to lose weight by restricting calories. Actually it worked rather well. Maybe I should have said never take diet advice from Reader's Digest?

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on May 26, 2012
at 03:58 PM

I don't think it's impossible to lose weight by conscious caloric restriction, but it doesn't work for a lot of people, and for most that it does "work", it is temporary. So this answer is perhaps overstated. Low carb is neither necessary nor sufficient for fat loss in all cases.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 25, 2012
at 12:31 PM

And if what you say is impossible then why am I 50 pounds lighter? It's not because I was smoking Tub's pixie dust about fructose.

Medium avatar

(10611)

on May 25, 2012
at 12:17 PM

Never take diet advice from a fat man.

100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on May 26, 2012
at 03:55 PM

Heh. Well, I can agree with that one. I get very upset when people criticize fat people, because there are so many factors to fatness, and some people can do everything right, and they are still going to be fat.

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