9

votes

How to get carbs without starch?

Answered on September 12, 2014
Created August 01, 2010 at 4:16 PM

I have Crohn's Disease and for the past year I've been eating a ZC/VLC diet in an attempt to maintain remission without medications. I just had my yearly colonoscopy on Friday, and I passed with flying colors - no Crohn's activity, 9 months without medication, one year on the diet, which is intended to be zero starch to prevent a specific bacterial activity in the colon.

Anyway, with that result I've started to wonder what to do next. Eating meat, cheese and eggs isn't all that bad, but being ketogenic all the time probably isn't optimal when it comes to recovery from exercise, and I'd like to start training harder than I currently do (strength). I've come up against a bit of a dilemma:

Where do I get carbs without starch? The common paleo answers are out (no starchy tubers for me) and I'm having a hard time finding information on the starch content of vegetables. Most foods aren't chock full of freely available glucose. I've been looking at the SCD Diet legal/illegal list and it seems full of contradictions or oddities like disallowing sugar but allowing ripe bananas... as if they ever get fully fermented?

So if you were shooting for (say) 50g of carb a day, and your only restriction was NO complex sugars (di- or poly- saccharides, ie starches), how would you do it?

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 17, 2012
at 10:17 AM

As for where you get glucose I just got mine in the supermarket. But I think fitness places would always have it.

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 17, 2012
at 10:15 AM

^ yeah honey with its hard to digest fructans and maltose is for some reason preferable to pure dextrose! (even putting honey above table sugar seems pretty odd). SCD is _so_ wack. Only thing I got out of her whole legal illegal list, was her pointing out pure cacao has carbs, and that some teas have polysaccrides.

D31a2a2d43191b15ca4a1c7ec7d03038

(4134)

on December 22, 2011
at 07:40 PM

PFW, due to this question and reading your blog, I am experimenting with using Lactaid milk for carbs. I mix it with a bit of hwc, and put it in tea, make yoghurt from it. So far, no problems. Staying very low starch, very low fiber, and very low FODMAP are working well for me. If you have any updates to post, I'd most appreciate reading them. Thanks! :)

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on October 10, 2011
at 02:40 PM

I bought some from MyProtein.com

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on July 03, 2011
at 02:21 PM

@Doris: Yes, you are right. Updates *are* helpful, for positive or negative.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on July 03, 2011
at 02:20 PM

@pfw: so glad to hear it is going well. Not sure how I stumbled into the question, but obviously didn't pay attention to the ate it was written! But, great feedback! I think it must have come up as related to another question I was reading...

0e395acc856e3353f3f5892e6b09b0e7

(1227)

on July 03, 2011
at 12:57 PM

That is encouraging news pfw. I really appreciate when people update what has happened between when questions are originally asked and the present. It shows that this way of living works. . .and sometimes. . .not. Thank you.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on July 03, 2011
at 10:13 AM

No, that sounds about right. It's been almost a year since I posted this question and I spent that year doing exactly what you describe - experimenting with various foods. It seems like a year VLC may have put my Crohn's into a pretty solid remission, so I'm going pretty good even with some starch in the diet. Couldn't be happier.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on June 15, 2011
at 10:48 PM

It's no different in my mind than taking pills. Anything that requires me to keep taking something to reduce symptoms does not solve anything. I'd rather fix the underlying issue than confuse my immune system with a parasitic infection. And since the underlying issue appears fixed, there's no need for parasites.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on June 15, 2011
at 10:47 PM

Maybe a full year starch free provided enough of a system reset that I'm living on borrowed time eating starch? I suppose we'll see.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on June 15, 2011
at 10:47 PM

Thanks for the link, I hadn't seen that before. I should probably update this post or my blog since it's pretty old at this point, but I think the population control point is the most interesting. I was completely starch free for a year, and have now added back in some starches to see what would happen, and so far nothing. If I eat a lot of fruit I have problems, and incidental gluten exposure seems to be a problem (I haven't deliberately challenged myself with bread yet), but potatoes, which should be terrible, don't seem to cause issues!

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on June 15, 2011
at 10:44 PM

It's no different in my mind than taking pills. Anything that requires me to keep taking something to reduce symptoms does not solve anything in my mind. I'd rather fix the underlying issue than confuse my immune system with a parasitic infection. And since the underlying issue appears fixed, there's no need for parasites.

Medium avatar

(3259)

on June 15, 2011
at 12:55 PM

I think probiotics are OK, it's the pre-biotics that could cause problems. I work with Ebringer's protocol and inulin can mess me up.

14aa918d730371ed14f8e7e7d6eb6587

(373)

on October 28, 2010
at 08:20 AM

Sorry, this is a bit late, but I know that there is a glucose control powder used by diabetics. I believed it's composed of glucose + some vitamin/minerals that help with glucose metabolism. You can find it at pharmacies.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on August 03, 2010
at 12:45 PM

If you are doing heavy strength training you will be using some glucose. How successful your training will be on a ZC diet probably depends on how efficient your liver is at making your own glucose from the protein you eat. I expect some people can make more glucose than others.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on August 03, 2010
at 11:28 AM

If you are doing heavy strength training you will be using some glucose. How successful your training will be on a ZC diet probably depends on how efficient your liver is at making your own glucose from the protein you eat. I expect some people can make more glucose than others. Carbs are so essential your body makes its own if you don't eat any :P

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on August 03, 2010
at 04:43 AM

Sounds like glycogen depletion as you probably guessed. Most of us paleo eaters do not exercise as much as you do. Glycogen depleting paleo eaters often eat more starch than other paleos. But your options are more limited than most.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on August 03, 2010
at 03:21 AM

I am not one of those people who gets the massive ZC energy boost reported by so many, unfortunately. What I get instead is a gradually declining energy level over a week of training (3x a week, 3x5 for three exercises) so that by Friday I'm missing reps at wimpy novice weights. I know I was getting enough fat because I was overeating by thousands of calories, most of it fat. I suspect this has something to do with the fact that I'm starting from an underweight body comp (6'3", 165lb) and thus do not exactly have a lot of fat mass to work with.

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on August 03, 2010
at 02:21 AM

If you read the comments, you'll see the one where he explains he is having probs with recovery time after exercise and that is why he wishes to consume more carbs.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on August 02, 2010
at 11:57 PM

My beef is that there's no way a banana that's anything other than a funky soup is completely free of starch. Ditto carrots and beets and various other vegetables. The SCD is helpful and I think it's maybe 85% there, but in their desire to allow people to eat certain foods I think they reach a bit when it comes to starch content.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on August 02, 2010
at 03:19 PM

Interesting experience. that was my fear adding back in any carbs - that the "simple sugar" thing was wrong. I'll be sure to take it slow.

1a8020e101199de55c1b3b726f342321

(1973)

on August 02, 2010
at 06:36 AM

Ayers seems familiar with that line of research from this post. You should talk with him in the comments of his next post. http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.com/2009/10/biofilm-transformation-helicobacter.html

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on August 02, 2010
at 01:07 AM

Where do you get glucose?

9bc6f3df8db981f67ea1465411958c8d

(3690)

on August 02, 2010
at 12:56 AM

For people interested in a good kind of honey, all the benefits of honey Eva just mentioned are found in greater amount in Manuka honey.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on August 01, 2010
at 07:53 PM

For me, apparently, that's not the case. After a year of ZC (literally meat eggs cheese cream only), I find myself having recovery troubles with 3x week weightlifting programs way earlier than most. This includes a two month period during which I deliberately overate and gained 25lbs. Perhaps that's just an individual tolerance and not a result of the diet, but this experiment will be necessary to find out.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on August 01, 2010
at 06:41 PM

Yeah, that's about where I ended up after thinking about it for a while. I suspect that ZERO starch is probably excessive, but I'd rather be cautious at this point than say, "yup, healed, bring on the yams"

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on August 01, 2010
at 06:40 PM

It does allow honey and fruit juice. I'm just a little leery of trusting it outright, if only because some of their allow/disallows seem kind of contradictory, but honey should be fine.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on August 01, 2010
at 06:36 PM

I haven't tried that. I've been going off of Ebringer's work with klebsiella pneumoniae and their starch metabolism producing enzymes which cross react immunologically with intestinal collagen. The problem is that my immune system just spent 6+ years developing a reaction to those enzymes, so if I feed KP, regardless of the rest of my gut bacteria, my immune system will respond. Immune system reset takes a very long time; probiotics are a good idea generally, I think, but won't work for my specific problem.

1c4ada15ca0635582c77dbd9b1317dbf

(2614)

on August 01, 2010
at 06:04 PM

agree with this completely. I'm picturing berries and fruit drizzled in honey...

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22 Answers

5
3864f9a2af09b1b447c7963058650a34

(3703)

on August 02, 2010
at 05:23 AM

pfw,

For 50 grams a day you can get the low GI carbs -- berries (if you don't have any diverticulitis where the tiny seeds get stuck), purple sweet potatoes (I don't believe these are nightshades; the Japanese and okinawan varieties have more antioxidants), green apples, vegetables that you are not allergic too (or better juice them like celery, kale, watercress, cilantro, carrots, etc)...

Have you considered the high value of vitamin D for GI dysbiosis? Neonomide (friend and commenter at HERE) has had quite a lot of success with vitamine D, beta-alanine and carnosine for recovery and maintenance of remission of his Crohn's.

Get your 25OHD vitamin D blood level to 70 ng/ml. This is the level which maintains me asthma-free (and my kids) -- we're all off our our inhalers. vitamin D has HEEEYGE immuno modulation benefits for all organs, particularly the GI tract.

Maintain good trace minerals and magnesium. Mag malate is a good easily absorbed source which does not induce loose stools (oxide is the worst; avoid). Bone broths/marrow-soups are great for collagen and calcium and minerals!

Glutamine? Very specific amino acid the enterocytes. Regrows the shortened damaged villi.

Omega-3 and vitamin A? Taurine? All found in fish/sardines/anchovies of course -- all very helpful also in rebuiding the GI tract.

Ayers talks about avoiding feeding the Klebsiella -- probiotics are important to balance and prevent overgrowth of the bad gut bacterial like Klebsiella and the prebiotics (food) to feed the good bacteria are vital as well. I added some veggies and green apples but I actually have found the easiest to feed them with metamucil/konsyl 1-2 tsp a couple of times per week when I don't eat veggies (too lazy). If you take probiotics, don't forget to cycle them which mimics random evo/paleo eating...

Sounds like you have made amazing progress! Would love to hear later what works the best for you...

-G

3
291961322d53b506c6cae151761bfef8

on August 02, 2011
at 03:59 PM

My thought regarding ZC v LC diets for IBD related disease, are that in the initial stages of recovery (if you are in an acute, 10-20 bowel movements/day scenario) a ZC approach may be needed to kick start remission.

However for most people (who are not on a viscious downward malabsorption spiral) a LC approach will most likely be sufficient to head into remission. As we know, KP bacteria are comensal. We will never get rid of them completely. People with the HLA-B27 marker, or IBD just need to starve them enough to re-adress the balance within the colon. The immune system like balance.

In my journey to better health, I learnt the hard way that I couldn't get well, and I mean sustainably better, not a "quick fix" better, unless I took a balanced approach to my eating habits. I can understand the desire to be ZC, because mentally it is nice to think we will "exterminate" the badbugs. However, reality is different. The human gut, mind and body can only maintain long term health through balance. Any extreme approach (though maybe necessary in some for a month or two) in the long run will fail. I carry this approach to all areas of life, health and politics too!

Good luck to you all !

3
Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on July 03, 2011
at 06:40 AM

Hmmmm...I may be way out in left field, but had pretty severe ulcerative colitis which resoved through VLC/LC/"clean" eating over a couple of years. It was severe enough that after I was clear for 3 years I had an anal repair surgery to fix a large/healed fissure and some prolapse. No symptoms since late 02 and repair done in 05 and no problems since.

I do fine with what are considered to be non-low starchy carb veggies - all kinds of salad herbs and lettuces, tomatoes, all kinds of bell peppers, broccoli, kale, all kinds of greens like mustards, onions,cauliflower, little yellow "summer squash," okra, eggplant,green beans, wax beans, mushrooms, brussels sprouts cabbage,zucchini.

Some people have problems with the cruciferous veggies re: gas/bloating. I do not. Or it is minimal and non-problem producing. I saute okra, yellow squash and cabbage and quick sort of stir fry them and do very well with them that way - also brussels sprouts and kale. Anyhow, some people have problems with those and broccoli and cauliflower. I can eat them cooked or raw (broccoli, cauli cabbage) now with little problem. And I eat LOTS of them.

Having "been there" with a like disorder, I am very happy for you. I'd say take it slowly. And experiment with cooking carefully.

And if I am out in left field, then I apoloigze and hope you find the info you need!

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on July 03, 2011
at 10:13 AM

No, that sounds about right. It's been almost a year since I posted this question and I spent that year doing exactly what you describe - experimenting with various foods. It seems like a year VLC may have put my Crohn's into a pretty solid remission, so I'm going pretty good even with some starch in the diet. Couldn't be happier.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on July 03, 2011
at 02:21 PM

@Doris: Yes, you are right. Updates *are* helpful, for positive or negative.

0e395acc856e3353f3f5892e6b09b0e7

(1227)

on July 03, 2011
at 12:57 PM

That is encouraging news pfw. I really appreciate when people update what has happened between when questions are originally asked and the present. It shows that this way of living works. . .and sometimes. . .not. Thank you.

Cbb1134f8e93067d1271c97bb2e15ef6

on July 03, 2011
at 02:20 PM

@pfw: so glad to hear it is going well. Not sure how I stumbled into the question, but obviously didn't pay attention to the ate it was written! But, great feedback! I think it must have come up as related to another question I was reading...

3
Medium avatar

(3259)

on June 15, 2011
at 01:18 PM

I have AS, which is a klebsiella-powered autoimmune condition like Crohn's. I've followed Ebringer's zero-starch protocol (as described in Carol Sinclair's book) and understand there are a lot of veggie options that provide carbs with only trace amounts of starch. I know your goal is zero, but rather than jump into yams and sweet potatoes from dairy and meat, you may want to try adding in veggies with virtually no starch and see how you do. Kleb will always be in your system, it's about controlling the population, and my understanding is that these very small amounts of starch are OK and will not lead to overgrowth.

For the starch content of vegetables, try this:

STARCH CONTENT OF FOOD

Do you test your food with iodine? I'm sometimes very surprised at what has starch when I do.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on June 15, 2011
at 10:47 PM

Thanks for the link, I hadn't seen that before. I should probably update this post or my blog since it's pretty old at this point, but I think the population control point is the most interesting. I was completely starch free for a year, and have now added back in some starches to see what would happen, and so far nothing. If I eat a lot of fruit I have problems, and incidental gluten exposure seems to be a problem (I haven't deliberately challenged myself with bread yet), but potatoes, which should be terrible, don't seem to cause issues!

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on June 15, 2011
at 10:47 PM

Maybe a full year starch free provided enough of a system reset that I'm living on borrowed time eating starch? I suppose we'll see.

2
62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on August 03, 2010
at 04:46 AM

Perhaps coconut water would be an option, like this one: http://www.vitacost.com/Vitacoco-100-Pure-Coconut-Water-11-1-fl-oz Fifteen grams of carb, no fiber. Apparently, a lot of people are liking it as a sports drink because of the electrolyte balance, plus it's relatively natural. I'd just check into the processing options is all.

2
5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on August 03, 2010
at 02:12 AM

Maybe I'm not understanding but if you have been successfully ZC and are feeling great why would you want to change that? If it's an energy thing I'd agree with a previous poster and try coconut oil, you may not be getting enough fat. There is nothing magical about carbs, you don't need them. I have been doing heavy strength training for over a year while ZC, plenty of fat tho, and have endless energy. I fast a lot too. A spoon of coconut oil or a gulp of cream is a wonderful energy boost too. There is nothing wrong with being "ketogenic all the time" so if that is your only concern I wouldn't worry about it..

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on August 03, 2010
at 02:21 AM

If you read the comments, you'll see the one where he explains he is having probs with recovery time after exercise and that is why he wishes to consume more carbs.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on August 03, 2010
at 11:28 AM

If you are doing heavy strength training you will be using some glucose. How successful your training will be on a ZC diet probably depends on how efficient your liver is at making your own glucose from the protein you eat. I expect some people can make more glucose than others. Carbs are so essential your body makes its own if you don't eat any :P

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on August 03, 2010
at 03:21 AM

I am not one of those people who gets the massive ZC energy boost reported by so many, unfortunately. What I get instead is a gradually declining energy level over a week of training (3x a week, 3x5 for three exercises) so that by Friday I'm missing reps at wimpy novice weights. I know I was getting enough fat because I was overeating by thousands of calories, most of it fat. I suspect this has something to do with the fact that I'm starting from an underweight body comp (6'3", 165lb) and thus do not exactly have a lot of fat mass to work with.

62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on August 03, 2010
at 04:43 AM

Sounds like glycogen depletion as you probably guessed. Most of us paleo eaters do not exercise as much as you do. Glycogen depleting paleo eaters often eat more starch than other paleos. But your options are more limited than most.

0bc6cbb653cdc5e82400f6da920f11eb

(19235)

on August 03, 2010
at 12:45 PM

If you are doing heavy strength training you will be using some glucose. How successful your training will be on a ZC diet probably depends on how efficient your liver is at making your own glucose from the protein you eat. I expect some people can make more glucose than others.

2
100fd85230060e754fc13394eee6d6f1

(18696)

on August 02, 2010
at 02:29 PM

You might try doing a Targeted Ketogenic Diet (TKD), which means you stay ZC/VLC all the time except you ingest 10-50 grams or so of dextrose right before lifting. I did this for a while, and it improved my performance at that time. A roll of Smarties (the American kind, not the Canadian, which are chocolate) is 5g of pure dextrose.

ETA: There is also coconut oil, which some people say acts somewhat like carbohydrate in giving a burst of energy for athletics. I haven't tried it myself.

2
C8521a858edd480815a55f683afff86a

(2065)

on August 01, 2010
at 06:14 PM

Wow, that's a tough one. If complex sugars are out then fructose and glucose are the only options right? If I am not mistaken all fruits and veggies contain complex carbohydrates, even cellulose is a polysaccharide. That leaves you with honey and sugar. Probably not what you want to eat every day! Liver has about 7-12 grams of carbs, store bought kombucha has 14 grams in 16 oz and 1+1/2 Tbs raw honey has 25 grams. That gives you about 50. Not sure eating liver every day is a good idea though. Of course most might say eating honey every day isn't a great idea either! Might be your best option though...

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on August 01, 2010
at 06:41 PM

Yeah, that's about where I ended up after thinking about it for a while. I suspect that ZERO starch is probably excessive, but I'd rather be cautious at this point than say, "yup, healed, bring on the yams"

1
Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 17, 2012
at 10:06 AM

The scd is a bit wacky definately.

It disallows glucose even though that requires no digestion and is absorbed in the first two feet of the small intenstine (max). Making it the ideal carbohydrate form for those with severe digestive issues. It claims this is because "most glucose has other sugars". Which seems to be blatently untrue, from what I can tell.

It then allows unlimited high sugar fruit, and honey and disallows table sugar. Honey has maltose which is very very hard to digest (and fructans, which is ditto).

Fruits contain fructose, sucrose and glucose, just like all the other things she bans.

And fructose is only quickly absorbed if its under a threshold (ie fodmap style, eat it on its own, in small servings, and only when theres a good glucose to fructose ratio).

The whole thing is arse backwards.

If you want to avoid these things, and get carbs, your better to do what I did - eat low "fodmap" fruit, in small portions, on its own, even adding glucose to it, to aid fructose absorbtion rate - or just using plain glucose for workouts. Low levels of fructose are quickly absorbed, especially with glucose, and glucose is the quickest carb there is (its what the GI scale is based on).

Also as far as whole foods, there is at least one fruit thats mostly glucose - cranberries. Although its also low sugar, and tart as heck, thus not an easy way to get large dose carbs. However it is nice knowing that a glass of unsweetened cranberry juice (or even with added glucose) is pretty darn safe.

But yeah, thats my advice. Also, you may not need to be zero starch, in the long run. There are very low levels of starch in some foods that dont seem to bother me, and ive got pretty bad issues. Mind you, I have made a table of low fodmap, low starch foods, and listed all there soluble fiber, fructose and starch contents! Your mileage may vary of course...

You could also look at a digestive enzyme, to speed digestion and absorption of foods. Seems like a practical way to prevent stuff from fermenting. Of course, you probably want an animal based prescription ezyme, as those funky vegan ones are made with god-knows-what (one I brought had rice starch in it for who knows what reason)

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 17, 2012
at 10:17 AM

As for where you get glucose I just got mine in the supermarket. But I think fitness places would always have it.

1
77877f762c40637911396daa19b53094

(78467)

on June 14, 2011
at 11:39 PM

Did anyone actually suggest something for him to eat? Try kale, zucchini, carrots, butternut squash, pumpkin, broccoli. I'm also currently searching for something else to replace potatos.

1
3eafb88d6a6d762fcfa8ed4eb0576260

on August 02, 2010
at 08:33 PM

If you do the SCD, I believe it actually allows winter squash and some root vegetables like carrots and beets. These would be good carbohydrate sources.

To address your confusion over sugar and bananas: Unripe bananas aren't allowed on the SCD because they're full of polysaccharides (starch), which require extra digestive steps to break down. However, once ripe, bananas are allowed, because by that point the starch has broken down into easily digested monosaccharides (glucose). Refined sugar (sucrose) still isn't allowed because it's a disaccharide (glucose+fructose) and, like starch, requires extra digestive steps to break down. In a person with compromised digestion, di- and polysaccharides may not be able to be broken down in the normal way, thereby causing potentially pathogenic bacteria and yeasts to proliferate in order to finish the job.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on August 02, 2010
at 11:57 PM

My beef is that there's no way a banana that's anything other than a funky soup is completely free of starch. Ditto carrots and beets and various other vegetables. The SCD is helpful and I think it's maybe 85% there, but in their desire to allow people to eat certain foods I think they reach a bit when it comes to starch content.

1
13c5a9f1678d75b93f269cdcf69f14d5

(2339)

on August 02, 2010
at 03:32 AM

Congratulations!

Diabetics use glucose tabs, available at any drugstore.

I think the SCD wants the bananas to be very, very ripe, but I agree that the diet seems inconsistent.

The Bernstein Diabetes Diet book has a list of veg that may be worth a look. http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/bernsteinsdiabetesdiet/a/bernsteinfoods.htm.

Here's a list of fruits lower in fructose: http://www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/internet/digestive-health/nutrition/low-fructose-diet.pdf

1
9bc6f3df8db981f67ea1465411958c8d

on August 02, 2010
at 01:14 AM

Just make sure your small intestine's gut flora is in good health before going hard on honey, lets just say I learned the hard way.

My problem is SIBO and it also caused gastritis so a large volume of food will make me feel bad for a long time. I thought honey would be ideal to get some calories with a minimal volume of food and I was putting my faith on SCD's recommendations which lead me to believe that there would be no problem since it's a simple sugar. Wrong! My problem get much worse and it took weeks to go back to before I had the honey.

I think that the simpler the sugar you eat, the easiest it can be digested by the bacteria in your small intestine, and when this bacteria is mostly bad, it's a bad idea.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on August 02, 2010
at 03:19 PM

Interesting experience. that was my fear adding back in any carbs - that the "simple sugar" thing was wrong. I'll be sure to take it slow.

1
62ed65f3596aa2f62fa1d58a0c09f8c3

(20807)

on August 02, 2010
at 12:36 AM

Honey is less processed and still contains its trace minerals. Some feel it also has an antibiotic effect. from my experience, it is definitely antibiotic and good for wound healing when applied topically. I would definitely try honey before I would go with regular sugar. I wonder if maybe some honey mixed with fast proteins might not help with recovery. That's what I would try first, but of course, move slowly and with caution. Cutting back on exercise while you experiment is IMO way safer than risking another Crohn's attack. Also, I am not sure what your goals are as regards to exercise, but 3 times a week should be plenty for a good level of health and fitness. -Eva

9bc6f3df8db981f67ea1465411958c8d

(3690)

on August 02, 2010
at 12:56 AM

For people interested in a good kind of honey, all the benefits of honey Eva just mentioned are found in greater amount in Manuka honey.

1
14aa918d730371ed14f8e7e7d6eb6587

on August 02, 2010
at 12:21 AM

Why not just use glucose? I know Peter at Hyperlipid has an ice cream recipe that uses mostly glucose and some honey.

Edit: just looked and realized that he actually uses sucrose. No idea why I thought otherwise. I think dextrose, which is commonly used as an additive in the food industry, is essentially glucose. Though I'm not sure of the health consequences of eating it straight up.

So yeah, just search for dextrose.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on August 02, 2010
at 01:07 AM

Where do you get glucose?

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on October 10, 2011
at 02:40 PM

I bought some from MyProtein.com

1
Cbd9ed7c13f16c51193d6e454c05e738

on August 01, 2010
at 07:47 PM

For some people ZC doesn??t mean that recovery is worse. It??s just different. What I have noticed is that it??s easier on zc to not eat enough energy after training, which can make you recovery a bit longer and not as effective. Though if I make sure I eat enough, I usually feel like theres no difference, or even better on zc.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on August 01, 2010
at 07:53 PM

For me, apparently, that's not the case. After a year of ZC (literally meat eggs cheese cream only), I find myself having recovery troubles with 3x week weightlifting programs way earlier than most. This includes a two month period during which I deliberately overate and gained 25lbs. Perhaps that's just an individual tolerance and not a result of the diet, but this experiment will be necessary to find out.

1
1a8020e101199de55c1b3b726f342321

(1973)

on August 01, 2010
at 06:04 PM

I would rebuild my gut bacteria so I could tolerate some of the starchy vegetables.

Ayers has a couple posts that implicate highly dysfunctional gut bacteria in Crohn's.

"The bacterial gene compostion of individuals diagnosed with Crohn???s Disease and ulcerative colitis were different and distinct from healthy individuals. Individuals with Crohn???s disease had 25% fewer species of gut flora than comparable healthy controls." http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.com/2010/03/human-gut-flora-genes.html

Have you read/tried Ayers suggests on pectin/inulin rich foods (apples/tomatos & leeks/onions)?

1a8020e101199de55c1b3b726f342321

(1973)

on August 02, 2010
at 06:36 AM

Ayers seems familiar with that line of research from this post. You should talk with him in the comments of his next post. http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.com/2009/10/biofilm-transformation-helicobacter.html

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on August 01, 2010
at 06:36 PM

I haven't tried that. I've been going off of Ebringer's work with klebsiella pneumoniae and their starch metabolism producing enzymes which cross react immunologically with intestinal collagen. The problem is that my immune system just spent 6+ years developing a reaction to those enzymes, so if I feed KP, regardless of the rest of my gut bacteria, my immune system will respond. Immune system reset takes a very long time; probiotics are a good idea generally, I think, but won't work for my specific problem.

Medium avatar

(3259)

on June 15, 2011
at 12:55 PM

I think probiotics are OK, it's the pre-biotics that could cause problems. I work with Ebringer's protocol and inulin can mess me up.

1
9d43f6873107e17ca4d1a5055aa7a2ad

on August 01, 2010
at 04:34 PM

Doesn't the SCD allow things like honey and fruit juice? Simple sugars usually get absorbed in the small intestine and don't make it to fermentation. So any non-starchy fruit would be up for grabs.

I found that once I was on LC long enough I was able to add back in starch without a problem though, but I had IBS not Crohns.

1c4ada15ca0635582c77dbd9b1317dbf

(2614)

on August 01, 2010
at 06:04 PM

agree with this completely. I'm picturing berries and fruit drizzled in honey...

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on August 01, 2010
at 06:40 PM

It does allow honey and fruit juice. I'm just a little leery of trusting it outright, if only because some of their allow/disallows seem kind of contradictory, but honey should be fine.

0
D79238c03c11d1b20c2ba136658eaf89

on August 16, 2012
at 08:49 PM

This was all very interesting and new to me. I have been suffering from moderate to severe Crohns disease for 8yrs and had never heard about low carb or zero carb. I have small bowel Crohns and have absorption issues. I eat lots of carb rich foods when in a period of flaring because it is the only things that will pass without the excruciating pain. Such as potatoes without skins, rice, etc. Anything soft and low residue. I have not been able to eat beef for 8 years and can only eat other meats when I am not flaring. I usually will limit myself to chicken and fish. I tend to stay away from tuna because it seems to be an issue. If I eat salad greens I usually end up with a restricted bowel. I was in remission for 2 years after I had treatment with 6Mp which killed my bone marrow and resulted in a prolonged stay in the hospital and multiple blood transfusions. I believe that the transfusions stimulated the remission and not the 6MP. I need help as I am entering into another period of flares and remission is done. I am open to any advise or information. I have tried to go paleo recently and failed. Just couldn't get enough nutrition in me being as strict as I had to or at least I was doing it wrong. I do believe in the paleo way of nutrition but i am struggling. Trying to regain my normal body weight and appearance and have not had any luck. Before Crohns 6'1" at 195 to 200lbs. after first major flare up lost 65lbs in two month span and have only been able to recover to 165lbs at my max and average probably 155lbs. If anyone can help I am tired of suffering.

0
291961322d53b506c6cae151761bfef8

on August 02, 2011
at 04:02 PM

Oh yes.... I forget to mention, that homemade sauerkraut and having a spoonful with each meal helped hugely to put me into remission. I also did a series of 6 colonic enemas with my sauerkraut juice. This gave me very fast acting relief and I think help sustained my remission.

0
7e534373c813258e2afd7afa95e752cb

on July 03, 2011
at 03:07 AM

To find the foods that can be eaten on the SCD Diet, go to http://www.pecanbread.com/p/legal_illegal_a-c.htm and you can also see how to eat in stages as your Crohn's improves at: http://pecanbread.com/p/how/stages.html
There are quite a number of fruits & vegetables that can be eaten as well as some varities of properly prepared dried beans, lentils and also winter squash. Honey is okay too.
Good luck!

Bb3d1772b28c02da2426e40dfcb533f5

(5381)

on August 17, 2012
at 10:15 AM

^ yeah honey with its hard to digest fructans and maltose is for some reason preferable to pure dextrose! (even putting honey above table sugar seems pretty odd). SCD is _so_ wack. Only thing I got out of her whole legal illegal list, was her pointing out pure cacao has carbs, and that some teas have polysaccrides.

0
095ef76482234d3db444b77d7ed01c29

(2755)

on June 14, 2011
at 11:06 PM

Nuts, seeds, and fruit.

OP, RE: Chrons... being an autoimmune disease, I wonder if you've thought of an alternative approach to your treatment. One of the things that I believe, and so do some researchers hence the research I've read about into this... is that not being exposed to parasites as our paleolithic ancestors were.

Worms, a little parasite. I'm not certain of what kind they are but with some googling, you can find out. Physicians are successfully treating chrons by having patients drink a small cup of juice once a month with worm eggs in it, giving them the parasite. This gives the immune system something else to attack in the digestive system instead of the digestive system it's self. Success rate so far is very high with this experimental treatment.

give it some thought???

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on June 15, 2011
at 10:48 PM

It's no different in my mind than taking pills. Anything that requires me to keep taking something to reduce symptoms does not solve anything. I'd rather fix the underlying issue than confuse my immune system with a parasitic infection. And since the underlying issue appears fixed, there's no need for parasites.

4145b36f1488224964edac6258b75aff

(7821)

on June 15, 2011
at 10:44 PM

It's no different in my mind than taking pills. Anything that requires me to keep taking something to reduce symptoms does not solve anything in my mind. I'd rather fix the underlying issue than confuse my immune system with a parasitic infection. And since the underlying issue appears fixed, there's no need for parasites.

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