1

votes

full muscle glycogen + low liver glycogen = ketosis

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created April 04, 2012 at 2:45 PM

my question is concerning muscle glycogen, liver glycogen and ketosis.

If your following a targeted ketogenic approach where you consume carbohydrate pre workout and possibly post workout without interrupting ketosis because you are not impacting on liver glycogen much at all would that consistent state of ketosis be harmful for the organs the liver is responsible for fueling or would it not matter from a health standpoint?

in other words: does a constant state of ketosis while efficient for fat burning and insulin management be detrimental long term due to the catabolic nature of ketosis and

the fact it seems unnatural any hunter gatherers would have preferentially ate only starch and only replenished muscle glycogen while keeping liver low at all times.

such a diet does allows for the best of both worlds: to spare muscle, keep muscle glycogen full and burn fat constantly but then I think of hunter gatherers and nature and the whole design seems to fall apart: omitting consumption of the omnipresent fruit and the implication of it resulting in full liver glycogen at most times and thus being out of ketosis seems detrimental to hunter gatherers.

i guess this question could also be basically asking if ketosis is even natural or beneficial to the human body (i need ketosis to basically function it is a godsend to me) but i am just a skeptic because i want to make certain i am doing what is optimal and feel i must be fair in assessing that the reality of this beneficial situation may merely be a relfection of my western diet induced deranged carb metabolism and not a reflection of what is optimal for the human body.

7e13e284a1bafd7b4de14a50ee96140c

(322)

on April 30, 2012
at 02:36 AM

Hey I'm similar to you in that i function better cognitively on vlc. there is a point that if cross (in terms of fat adapted-ness and ketosis level) i get amazing levels of mental energy and clarity. I have been there before but im trying to get there again after a period of high carb. Just wondering how it is for you..

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 05, 2012
at 04:07 PM

I think Paul jaminet disputes that - at least somewhat. Fructose does work faster to replenish liver glycogen, but glucose is not that far behind.

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on April 04, 2012
at 09:56 PM

as far as liver and muscle glycogen where the liver is low and muscle high check out this post http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=10723

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on April 04, 2012
at 09:55 PM

http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=10723 check this out a couple posts down

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on April 04, 2012
at 09:50 PM

i got a six pack now lol

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on April 04, 2012
at 09:50 PM

i had the abdominal signs of insulin resistance before going low carb that is why i suspect insulin.

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on April 04, 2012
at 09:50 PM

continued.....for my increased cognitive performance or are they indirectly responsible for it through insulin control i guess just keep working out with carbs around workouts and gauge how i feel. it would be nice to get somewhere near the actual problem though to know what the deal is.

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on April 04, 2012
at 09:48 PM

thankyou for an excellent reply to my, ill admit poorly framed quesiton. my goal is in fact ketosis for the purpose of cognitive function and not weight loss. my body composition is better with about 50-100 g carbs per day. but my optimal cognitive function is on no carbs whatsoever and im sick of choosing between success in university and sexy muscles at the beach its a pretty brute face off between brains or braun. i wonder if there is anyone else who suffers from this same dilemma as i do. i just need to know if my problem is insulin glucose or ketone related; are the ketones responsible fo

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on April 04, 2012
at 09:44 PM

starch preferentially replenishes muscle glycogen. glucose uptake is increased during anaerobic exercise. therefore there is minimal impact on liver glycogen replenishment when ingesting carbs pre and post workout. fructose is the opposite fill liver first and is inefficient at muscle glycogen replenishment. if you lift weights and eat preworkout carbs that is going to the muscle.

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on April 04, 2012
at 04:31 PM

this is the post about kitavans but he also covers the inuit diet as well

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on April 04, 2012
at 04:31 PM

additionally check out this http://www.paleoplan.com/2011/05-18/hunter-gatherer-profile-the-kitavans/

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on April 04, 2012
at 04:30 PM

sorry but the inuit isn't a good example because it only skews the results towards those hunter gatherers existing in arctic conditions what about equatorial culture and other carb heavy hunter gatherers which make up the rest of the world where carbs would have been plentiful year round rather than seasonal im well versed in the inuit low carb stefanson arguments

  • Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

    asked by

    (324)
  • Views
    6.6K
  • Last Activity
    1282D AGO
Frontpage book

Get FREE instant access to our Paleo For Beginners Guide & 15 FREE Recipes!

3 Answers

1
7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on April 04, 2012
at 05:05 PM

The liver is going to keep it's glycogen stores steady. It is the emergency supply for the body, especially the brain. Meanwhile, your muscle glycogen gets used locally in whatever muscle you exercise. So your plan isn't going keep liver glycogen low- liver glycogen will stay where the liver thinks it needs to be, whether you are in ketosis or not. In fact, this is why ketogenic diets are good for a host of blood sugar related problems- the liver keeps the blood sugar at a low but constant level.

If you are talking paleo levels of carbohydrate, then you shall replenish both your muscle and liver glycogen without pushing your blood sugar into dangerous territory, assuming you aren't metabolically deranged. The best time for carbs, in my humble opinion, is after heavy physical labor.

I don't know what, specifically your goal is, nor do I understand this idea that you can somehow achieve low liver glycogen while keeping your muscles full of the stuff. If ketosis is helping you, I suggest you stick with it. If you want to add carbs in order to gain more muscle, I suggest you stay in the 100-200g range. You don't have to go overboard- you probably don't want to eat more than 50g at any one time either. It is possible to have some carbs, and a little ketosis too. MCTs get turned into ketones regardless of carbs, and when we sleep at night it is possible to move into fat burning assuming you haven't overdone the carbs.

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on April 04, 2012
at 09:50 PM

i got a six pack now lol

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on April 04, 2012
at 09:50 PM

continued.....for my increased cognitive performance or are they indirectly responsible for it through insulin control i guess just keep working out with carbs around workouts and gauge how i feel. it would be nice to get somewhere near the actual problem though to know what the deal is.

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on April 04, 2012
at 09:50 PM

i had the abdominal signs of insulin resistance before going low carb that is why i suspect insulin.

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on April 04, 2012
at 09:48 PM

thankyou for an excellent reply to my, ill admit poorly framed quesiton. my goal is in fact ketosis for the purpose of cognitive function and not weight loss. my body composition is better with about 50-100 g carbs per day. but my optimal cognitive function is on no carbs whatsoever and im sick of choosing between success in university and sexy muscles at the beach its a pretty brute face off between brains or braun. i wonder if there is anyone else who suffers from this same dilemma as i do. i just need to know if my problem is insulin glucose or ketone related; are the ketones responsible fo

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on April 04, 2012
at 09:56 PM

as far as liver and muscle glycogen where the liver is low and muscle high check out this post http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=10723

0
A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 04, 2012
at 04:52 PM

I can't imagine a state where liver glycogen is low and muscle glycogen is high. If you eat starch, it will replenish liver glycogen. If you don't eat starch (or sugar), the liver will still replenish glycogen from protein (gluconeogenesis), catablizing muscle tissue, if necessary. The liver must have it's glycogen to keep the brain alive.

Maybe I'm wrong. And please feel free to jump all over me if I am.

But the liver is always going to have some glycogen, and when levels drop it will do what it has to do to get them back up.

Whether or not long term low carb/ketosis is healthy or not is another question for which I have no answer. But personally, I feel better with a few carbs.

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on April 04, 2012
at 09:55 PM

http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=10723 check this out a couple posts down

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on April 04, 2012
at 09:44 PM

starch preferentially replenishes muscle glycogen. glucose uptake is increased during anaerobic exercise. therefore there is minimal impact on liver glycogen replenishment when ingesting carbs pre and post workout. fructose is the opposite fill liver first and is inefficient at muscle glycogen replenishment. if you lift weights and eat preworkout carbs that is going to the muscle.

A968087cc1dd66d480749c02e4619ef4

(20436)

on April 05, 2012
at 04:07 PM

I think Paul jaminet disputes that - at least somewhat. Fructose does work faster to replenish liver glycogen, but glucose is not that far behind.

0
Cf416725f639ffd1bb90764792ce7b8a

(2799)

on April 04, 2012
at 03:43 PM

Hunter/gatherers didn't necessarily have carb heavy diets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit_diet

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on April 04, 2012
at 04:31 PM

additionally check out this http://www.paleoplan.com/2011/05-18/hunter-gatherer-profile-the-kitavans/

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on April 04, 2012
at 04:30 PM

sorry but the inuit isn't a good example because it only skews the results towards those hunter gatherers existing in arctic conditions what about equatorial culture and other carb heavy hunter gatherers which make up the rest of the world where carbs would have been plentiful year round rather than seasonal im well versed in the inuit low carb stefanson arguments

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on April 04, 2012
at 04:31 PM

this is the post about kitavans but he also covers the inuit diet as well

Answer Question


Get FREE instant access to our
Paleo For Beginners Guide & 15 FREE Recipes!