0

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Carb source for training on a tkd.

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created April 05, 2012 at 5:35 AM

I basically eat a ketogenic paleo diet with around 50g trace carbs, veggies etc. With my training volume I have decided that it's not very wise of me to be running on that amount of carbs training twice a day. Endurance based for my job. Basically my question is while being in ketosis what is my better option to use before a workout to give me fuel. I have been using anywhere between 25-50g depending on length and intensity. For example a 10min metcon, maybe 30g. Tommorow an 18k run, around 150g. Is there any major difference in using Fruit and it's fructose or should I be hitting up the glucose options with yams etc. Keep in mind I'm looking for relatively fast availability and not looking to replenish glycogen stores post workout. Simply, does fructose provide an equal energy source in terms of speed then glucose based product if im keeping it under around 100g (as to not fill liver stores). Thanks

EDIT While with low body glycogen levels, does using fructose or glucose have any benefit over each other or will they both do a similair job? Anecdotally I dont find any difference but just wondering if there is any science behind that?

537001f30670e73eb0ac45779af649a5

on April 19, 2012
at 09:24 PM

im runnign a 50k this weekend fasted (probably unless i chicken out)

6b8d12fc3e43179f9ae1765a4d1a9dc2

(5914)

on April 06, 2012
at 12:33 AM

AP - the rate that you start to burn sugar is related to your lactic threshold. It is usually around the 70-75% mark, but this can be increased with training.

6b8d12fc3e43179f9ae1765a4d1a9dc2

(5914)

on April 06, 2012
at 12:31 AM

That is a fair call Rob. I didn't mean to say that Colpo had lots of articles relating specifically to keto diets. I apologies if that how my answer came across. I just meant that Coplo has written a lot about low carb diets and performance in exercise. The 3 links in your and my answers all show this to some degree. I believe that the link you clicked on may have been showing the hormonal effects of two diets, one high in carbs and the other lower (I could be wrong, as I mentioned I am really busy today so cant check), not specifically the effects of a low carb diet per se.

Cf416725f639ffd1bb90764792ce7b8a

(2799)

on April 05, 2012
at 11:25 PM

My point was you mention keto several times in your reply, tell him to go read this guy, I google him, click the first post on carbs I see, and get a post comparing two groups that aren't actually low carb. If you had a specific post in mind it would have been easier if you'd linked it in the first place.

6b8d12fc3e43179f9ae1765a4d1a9dc2

(5914)

on April 05, 2012
at 10:25 PM

Rob, I dont have time to read all of his references, but there are five different references, not one, so can you please tell me what your point is? Which reference are you talking about? No where in the article does he say that one of the groups is in ketosis and he actually states at the start that he is discussing low carb diets. If the 226g of carbs was considerably lower in carb than the other group and there were health issues, then this would indicate to me that not eating enough carbs for your exercise levels is not a good idea. Just my opinion, but I dont find him to be wrong much

6b8d12fc3e43179f9ae1765a4d1a9dc2

(5914)

on April 05, 2012
at 10:09 PM

Hi Rob, no I wasn't saying that there was a specific Colpo article re ketosis. Colpo has, however, written extensively about low carb and exercise. such as http://anthonycolpo.com/?p=1498 .... and .... http://anthonycolpo.com/?p=1535. His writings and my findings re exercise and low carb seem consistant.

537001f30670e73eb0ac45779af649a5

on April 05, 2012
at 09:07 PM

people have different thresh holds where they start to burn sugar and stop burning fat. mine is around 8:30 a mile. you gotta find out what yours is

9bd33dab06ad6696b1b6a06aed818f05

(659)

on April 05, 2012
at 08:58 PM

And yes I do fast, usually anywhere from 24 through to 36 hours

9bd33dab06ad6696b1b6a06aed818f05

(659)

on April 05, 2012
at 08:58 PM

@AnthonyP I am fairly well fat adapted and have just come off a block of training 4 or 5 weeks with barely any carb more then what comes from my veggies and loading up on coconut before a workout. Intensity for my runs is usually high, hence the addition of starches but your dead right in that I could easily bang out 18k fasted or on fat if I kept the pace down.

537001f30670e73eb0ac45779af649a5

on April 05, 2012
at 01:16 PM

the reason i ask is that if you are fat adapted, you could actually go a day without eating and bang out your 18k run easy. its also depends on the intensity of the 18k run. if it is an intense pace for you, you might want to load some starches, if it isn't an intense pace... you could probably go in not eating for a whole day

537001f30670e73eb0ac45779af649a5

on April 05, 2012
at 01:12 PM

do you fast at all?

Cf416725f639ffd1bb90764792ce7b8a

(2799)

on April 05, 2012
at 12:38 PM

Did you mean this post by Colpo? http://anthonycolpo.com/?p=751 It's comparing two groups, and the one they're calling the low carb group is getting 226 grams of day of carbs so they're well out of ketosis.

6b8d12fc3e43179f9ae1765a4d1a9dc2

(5914)

on April 05, 2012
at 11:10 AM

To answer your question though, fruit will fill replenish your liver first, I believe, so if you don't want that, go for starches

9bd33dab06ad6696b1b6a06aed818f05

(659)

on April 05, 2012
at 10:22 AM

No mate thanks for the answer. I have definitely learnt the hard way that training volume and low levels of dietary carbohydrate is a pretty poor move. I'm fairly happy with the way it has been going this week, adding a few pieces of fruit and coconut water in before workouts.. just have to play around with amount for what length/intensity. I enjoy leaving the carbs out when not training so hopefully I can get to a stage where I've got the carb amounts/types matched up to the training sessions variables.

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1 Answers

1
6b8d12fc3e43179f9ae1765a4d1a9dc2

(5914)

on April 05, 2012
at 10:14 AM

This is not really an answer and I don't mean this in anyway as giving you shit, but attempting 18km runs and keto make it seem like you don't have your goals and your methods in alignment. If you want to fuel yourself for endurance exercise you need to eat carbs and you need to replenish your glycogen stores.

I was reading posts on the paleofood.listserve and people were constantly pissing in my ear about a Phinney and someone and how there studies show that you can adapt and perform as well doing endurance on a keto. I have since found out the this is complete and utter non-sense.

I have tried it and it is just painful and full of disappointment. Your results will slowly get worse and worse and you keep thinking that you are doing something wrong. As soon as I added carbs back my performance on the bike and in the gym improved significantly.

I am not sure where you are in your paleo journey but can I suggest you read some of Anthony Colpo posts. While you may disagree with some of his comments re white bread and grains, the rest of his work is totally paleo compatible. He talks the most sense I have read when it comes to carbs and exercise.

Sorry, if you are deadset on the idea of keto, please disregard what I have written, I am just trying to help :)

6b8d12fc3e43179f9ae1765a4d1a9dc2

(5914)

on April 05, 2012
at 11:10 AM

To answer your question though, fruit will fill replenish your liver first, I believe, so if you don't want that, go for starches

Cf416725f639ffd1bb90764792ce7b8a

(2799)

on April 05, 2012
at 12:38 PM

Did you mean this post by Colpo? http://anthonycolpo.com/?p=751 It's comparing two groups, and the one they're calling the low carb group is getting 226 grams of day of carbs so they're well out of ketosis.

6b8d12fc3e43179f9ae1765a4d1a9dc2

(5914)

on April 06, 2012
at 12:31 AM

That is a fair call Rob. I didn't mean to say that Colpo had lots of articles relating specifically to keto diets. I apologies if that how my answer came across. I just meant that Coplo has written a lot about low carb diets and performance in exercise. The 3 links in your and my answers all show this to some degree. I believe that the link you clicked on may have been showing the hormonal effects of two diets, one high in carbs and the other lower (I could be wrong, as I mentioned I am really busy today so cant check), not specifically the effects of a low carb diet per se.

9bd33dab06ad6696b1b6a06aed818f05

(659)

on April 05, 2012
at 10:22 AM

No mate thanks for the answer. I have definitely learnt the hard way that training volume and low levels of dietary carbohydrate is a pretty poor move. I'm fairly happy with the way it has been going this week, adding a few pieces of fruit and coconut water in before workouts.. just have to play around with amount for what length/intensity. I enjoy leaving the carbs out when not training so hopefully I can get to a stage where I've got the carb amounts/types matched up to the training sessions variables.

6b8d12fc3e43179f9ae1765a4d1a9dc2

(5914)

on April 05, 2012
at 10:25 PM

Rob, I dont have time to read all of his references, but there are five different references, not one, so can you please tell me what your point is? Which reference are you talking about? No where in the article does he say that one of the groups is in ketosis and he actually states at the start that he is discussing low carb diets. If the 226g of carbs was considerably lower in carb than the other group and there were health issues, then this would indicate to me that not eating enough carbs for your exercise levels is not a good idea. Just my opinion, but I dont find him to be wrong much

Cf416725f639ffd1bb90764792ce7b8a

(2799)

on April 05, 2012
at 11:25 PM

My point was you mention keto several times in your reply, tell him to go read this guy, I google him, click the first post on carbs I see, and get a post comparing two groups that aren't actually low carb. If you had a specific post in mind it would have been easier if you'd linked it in the first place.

6b8d12fc3e43179f9ae1765a4d1a9dc2

(5914)

on April 05, 2012
at 10:09 PM

Hi Rob, no I wasn't saying that there was a specific Colpo article re ketosis. Colpo has, however, written extensively about low carb and exercise. such as http://anthonycolpo.com/?p=1498 .... and .... http://anthonycolpo.com/?p=1535. His writings and my findings re exercise and low carb seem consistant.

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