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Leangains vs CBL for training times and carb load times?

Commented on July 28, 2013
Created November 08, 2012 at 6:33 AM

I'm debating on the advantages/disadvantages to Leangains/CBL as far as training times, and carb loading times.

Martin's ideal is fasted training at the end of a 16hr fast for max fat burning, at 11am, with mealtime at 12pm and again at 7-8pm, with most calories/carbs/protein in the PWO meal. I've been eating two equal meals following this ideal.

Keifer's ideal is 5-7pm training, basically same IF no breakfast, fat/protein only before training (I never eat carb in off days or before training anyway), high GI carb load PWO at night (when he isn't contradicting himself).

Difference is training times, and fasted training, mostly. Shakes aren't my thing. High GI would be rice in my case. Taste wise I much prefer sweet potatoes.

With my body, I don't gain muscle or fat very much. I'm insulin resistant since childhood. So, to maximally uptake carbs into my muscle cells and not fat cells, ideally I figure I should eat ALL my carbs immediately PWO to take advantage of the phenomenon of resistance training induced non insulin mediated glucose uptake / tGLUT translocation. Waiting to eat any portion of carbs to hours after I train would rely on insulin and sensitivity to it, which I lack, because the training effect of insulin independent glucose uptake ends at some hour after training.

But, as Keifer argues, nite carb loading is best. So, shall I train fasted at 11am and carb load at 12pm, then fat/protein only at 7pm, or eat protein and fat only at 12pm breaking my 16/8 IF fast, train at 6-7 and carb load at 7pm? I go to sleep at 10pm and wake at 5am.

So, since my goal is fat loss, what shall I do? I can train 5-7pm two days a week, and 8-9pm another day, if necessary. Or as Ive been doing, i can train at 11am all three days. I can eat all my carbs PWO, at night or at lunch, or split between PWO meals, in either training scenario.

What to do?

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19413)

on July 28, 2013
at 01:09 PM

Yup, if you take the same amount of food you'd eat in a day and break it up into lots of small meals and eat them over all your waking, then your insulin with be flat throughout the day, rather than a single spike, and that chronic level will raise insulin resistance. If you have all the day's food in a single meal, you get a single spike of insulin, and a large period of time of very little insulin - this creates a peak and a low, which avoids insulin resistance.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on June 30, 2013
at 11:29 PM

Many would disagree with that statement.....leangains for example. I never got cut on multiple meals, but 2x daily 16hr IF at the same weekly avg cal sure cut me up.

5e5ff249c9161b8cd96d7eff6043bc3a

(4713)

on May 06, 2013
at 09:55 PM

He does recommend 10g BCAAs immediately before lifting so that you are not totally fasted. He also says it's not necessary if your schedule has you lifting later he outlines how to eat your first meal with this in mind.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 27, 2013
at 09:24 PM

I agree with animaleater.

1edb06ded9ccf098a4517ca4a7a34ebc

(14952)

on January 27, 2013
at 09:24 PM

@ Wisper- Actually, Berkhan does recommend fasted training in certain cases, like specifically for fat loss. He recommends fasted training areound 10AM followed by walk before breaking the fast at 12-1PM. He also wrote an article specifically on the benefits of training fasted.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on January 13, 2013
at 11:48 PM

Everything I've read is that he recommends it, but that if your schedule doesn't allow it, then you can tweak leangains and still get results.

9f54852ea376e8e416356f547611e052

(2957)

on January 13, 2013
at 08:23 PM

Martin doesn't recommend fasted training, it's optional.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 17, 2012
at 02:29 AM

the other thing im playing with is carb amounts. i followed strict leangains for months and got to 8percent. i trained 11pm, ate 1g carb/lbs plus lean beef at 12pm, the same again at 7pm. Keto on rest days as now. but currently im taking all 2g carb/lbs LBM at night, the same amount as before as a basis, but if im hungry, ill eat all the starch i want. one or the other, my basis, or unlimited, not in between, and depends on the day how i feel. the second change is upping my protein to 2.5g/kilo bw from 2.0g. BIG satiety increase, so much so, im feeling satisfied with less cal.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 17, 2012
at 02:22 AM

some TRAINING days, such as a day off work or at the climbing gym, I fast all day, climb or lift in the late afternoon, and eat all my super lean beef, fish oil, and starch at night. This feels great. My idea is that all days are fat burning days, so that post workout im only taking whey+BCAA for anabolism and staying in the fat furnace state, and even when i eat at 3pm, its just a touch of omega3 fat and lean protein; no carbs or much fat to stop fat burning. carbs at night just feel good! this scenario is EASY and im never too hungry.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 17, 2012
at 02:15 AM

I couldnt understand your daily breakdown; could you be more clear? Kenya, eh? Sounds cool. I'm in Tokyo. Definitely access to gram scales! I even have one that looks like a spoon that measures in 0.1g. My buddy and I have been exp with eating all calories after dark. He does one big meal, and is getting ripped. For me: REST day - super lean beef and fish oil btwn 3-4pm, more beef and some fat plus greens btwn 7-8pm. TRAINING days fasted workout at 11am, whey+BCAA at 12pm, lean beef and fish oil btwn 3-4pm, more beef plus starch btwn 7-8pm.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 16, 2012
at 11:04 PM

I have the CBL book. He says backloading is done post workout. Keto on rest days. He also says if there are two or more keto rest days before the next training day, to do a backload the night before your next training session. I think this is a muscle gaining perspective, whereas Martin concentrates on fat loss. I'll side with Martin on this one. Carb loading after a day of rest is not the best for fat loss IMHO. That practice DOES However make your next day's workout insane!

Medium avatar

(2417)

on November 19, 2012
at 02:52 AM

Anyway, my Leangains approach has been 2 identical low fat, lean meat, and 140g carbs (starch)meals on training days, one meal after training, one in the evening; both same in profile, totaling 280g carbs at 140lbs bodyweight @8% bodyfat. Lately I'm experimenting with eating all those carbs, same daily calories and carb grams, after training, and eating either A) a very lean protein meal or B) a fatty meat meal for dinner. I may experiment with dropping to 140g carbs post training and making up calories with fat at dinner. Thoughts?

Medium avatar

(2417)

on November 19, 2012
at 02:46 AM

"Will be not stored"? Do you mean will not be stored? Or will be stored? Seems in CBL fat during the day, before the evening workout and then subsequent carb load, is recommended for Fat loss. Fat after a carb load I agree is generally bad as it'll be stored due to high insulin; but if I fast 8pm-11am, train, carb load at 12pm, and not eat again until 7or8pm, I've got about 7hrs between meals and it would seem plenty of time for the lunch insulin rush to clear and the evening fat meal to be safe. Thoughts?

Medium avatar

(2417)

on November 08, 2012
at 09:19 AM

Is the program of which you speak detailed in your link? Rhetorical question; ill check it out. That said, IFing, skipping breakfast, and totally fasted training has make me more ripped, burned more fat, and stronger than I ever have been. Leangains works. Most adhearants agree upon waking the fasting body is a fat burning furnace, certainly not storing. My results concur. Paleo man woke up and hunted fasted precisely because he had no food! I do, per digestion, food combine. I eat my starches to completion, wait a bit, and eat my meat.

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6 Answers

0
B023a84cf6f4dd3e2469df99ab626346

on June 29, 2013
at 07:34 PM

IF the goal is fat loss... meal timing is completely irrelevant and makes no difference between eating 1 meal a day or 10 meals a day or fasting 6 hours a day or fasting 20 hours a day... Makes NO difference in body composition.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on June 30, 2013
at 11:29 PM

Many would disagree with that statement.....leangains for example. I never got cut on multiple meals, but 2x daily 16hr IF at the same weekly avg cal sure cut me up.

96440612cf0fcf366bf5ad8f776fca84

(19413)

on July 28, 2013
at 01:09 PM

Yup, if you take the same amount of food you'd eat in a day and break it up into lots of small meals and eat them over all your waking, then your insulin with be flat throughout the day, rather than a single spike, and that chronic level will raise insulin resistance. If you have all the day's food in a single meal, you get a single spike of insulin, and a large period of time of very little insulin - this creates a peak and a low, which avoids insulin resistance.

0
7bf306ada57db47547e9da39a415edf6

(11214)

on June 12, 2013
at 03:50 PM

Currently I go to the gym at 9am twice a week. I train fasted and wait until 12am to go to lunch. I get grilled shrimp and steamed rice, in an attempt to get low fat, high carbs and a good protein. Then, on my way home I usually pick up some kind of fruit, and I eat rice/some lean protein at home. I know there is some timing that isn't perfect, but I am assuming that, if the muscles are depleted of glycogen, they are going to be ready to take up glycogen even if I don't get it to them right away. On off days I am relatively high-fat/low carb, though I have more cheats now since I am trying to gain muscle and CBL seems to increase my overall hunger. Things are going in the right direction. The one thing I don't like, that is worrying me is that I keep getting those cramps in my feet- and it seems to come from the carbs (I've got a question on here about that). I've heard a recent suggestion that more salt might counteract it. Last night I awoke with a terrible cramp in my foot. I limped into the kitchen and took some salt. It seemed to help, but maybe just walking around on it helped, I don't know.

I hesitate to say do this at all if you are trying to lose weight, but one insulin spike a week seems to help reset some things, so take one post-workout night and eat a low fat/high carb meal. Since you are looking at this though, I'm guessing you also secretly want to gain muscle, in which case it is really hard to get the carbs in just at night. That is why I am cautiously eating a starchy lunch in addition to the nightime carbs. I was pretty stuffed anyway last night- I had defrosted some fish for a protein source, but I just couldn't eat anymore after the rice. I heard somewhere the target is like 3xbodyweight, which is above 500 for me. It seems crazy, but I wasn't gaining at all until I started pushing it.

0
Ba99a15e6bf870b81286791617050593

(671)

on December 16, 2012
at 06:02 PM

I know we've been on this one before, animaleater, but just to update you on progress: I've more or less combined the programs this way:

4 days rest - normal lean gains, high protein, high fat, low carb 2 days training - 20 hour fast (10:00pm-6:00pm) with CBL coming those two nights 1 day training - normal lean gains (equal carbs lunch and dinner)

As far as results:

I live in Kenya and don't have access to a scale, but mirror check wise - way more definition, stomach feels better eating carbs at night, etc.

I was doing two 24 hour fasts on rest days before this, usually with an absurdly large t-bone to break the fast. Calories the same both methods, more carbs with the CBL than before. So I can't say if it's simply a result of more carbs, the timing of the fasts, or carb backloading. I need to do more n=1, but I'm thinking if you combine the two and start doing more afternoon training, things will pick up.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 17, 2012
at 02:22 AM

some TRAINING days, such as a day off work or at the climbing gym, I fast all day, climb or lift in the late afternoon, and eat all my super lean beef, fish oil, and starch at night. This feels great. My idea is that all days are fat burning days, so that post workout im only taking whey+BCAA for anabolism and staying in the fat furnace state, and even when i eat at 3pm, its just a touch of omega3 fat and lean protein; no carbs or much fat to stop fat burning. carbs at night just feel good! this scenario is EASY and im never too hungry.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 17, 2012
at 02:29 AM

the other thing im playing with is carb amounts. i followed strict leangains for months and got to 8percent. i trained 11pm, ate 1g carb/lbs plus lean beef at 12pm, the same again at 7pm. Keto on rest days as now. but currently im taking all 2g carb/lbs LBM at night, the same amount as before as a basis, but if im hungry, ill eat all the starch i want. one or the other, my basis, or unlimited, not in between, and depends on the day how i feel. the second change is upping my protein to 2.5g/kilo bw from 2.0g. BIG satiety increase, so much so, im feeling satisfied with less cal.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 17, 2012
at 02:15 AM

I couldnt understand your daily breakdown; could you be more clear? Kenya, eh? Sounds cool. I'm in Tokyo. Definitely access to gram scales! I even have one that looks like a spoon that measures in 0.1g. My buddy and I have been exp with eating all calories after dark. He does one big meal, and is getting ripped. For me: REST day - super lean beef and fish oil btwn 3-4pm, more beef and some fat plus greens btwn 7-8pm. TRAINING days fasted workout at 11am, whey+BCAA at 12pm, lean beef and fish oil btwn 3-4pm, more beef plus starch btwn 7-8pm.

0
593c12404a5b3fc113eb786fef031d01

on December 16, 2012
at 05:50 PM

I could be wrong but CBL and carbnite are not identical. As far as CBL, keifer says to eat some carbs PWO, but your high carb day is on your day off. Martin is saying do your highcarb day on the day of training..

Medium avatar

(2417)

on December 16, 2012
at 11:04 PM

I have the CBL book. He says backloading is done post workout. Keto on rest days. He also says if there are two or more keto rest days before the next training day, to do a backload the night before your next training session. I think this is a muscle gaining perspective, whereas Martin concentrates on fat loss. I'll side with Martin on this one. Carb loading after a day of rest is not the best for fat loss IMHO. That practice DOES However make your next day's workout insane!

0
E95fa747a8df1d2a618d5d4a61e8b3d3

(-2)

on November 18, 2012
at 03:39 PM

Eating too much fat same day as carb load (before or after) will be not be stored because of high insulin.

Eating carbs all day will help muscle retention and do little damage if caloric load is considered (Lyle Mcdonald recommends loading for 2 days on a diet).

Starches can be kept slow later in night for better satiety.

Medium avatar

(2417)

on November 19, 2012
at 02:52 AM

Anyway, my Leangains approach has been 2 identical low fat, lean meat, and 140g carbs (starch)meals on training days, one meal after training, one in the evening; both same in profile, totaling 280g carbs at 140lbs bodyweight @8% bodyfat. Lately I'm experimenting with eating all those carbs, same daily calories and carb grams, after training, and eating either A) a very lean protein meal or B) a fatty meat meal for dinner. I may experiment with dropping to 140g carbs post training and making up calories with fat at dinner. Thoughts?

Medium avatar

(2417)

on November 19, 2012
at 02:46 AM

"Will be not stored"? Do you mean will not be stored? Or will be stored? Seems in CBL fat during the day, before the evening workout and then subsequent carb load, is recommended for Fat loss. Fat after a carb load I agree is generally bad as it'll be stored due to high insulin; but if I fast 8pm-11am, train, carb load at 12pm, and not eat again until 7or8pm, I've got about 7hrs between meals and it would seem plenty of time for the lunch insulin rush to clear and the evening fat meal to be safe. Thoughts?

0
Ac65632ad056c504b27bc97626276e9d

on November 08, 2012
at 08:58 AM

Hi AnimalEater,

For the past 3 years I have been supporting people on pre-training, HEALTHFUL fat-cutting methods. There's one really neat method that is paleo-convertible, and was designed for athletes, but it does require that you relax on (relax, not cease altogether) the training for between 1 and 3 weeks (depending upon your starting metabolic "state"). As for guidelines, the method is more about proper food combining and providing time for proper digestion, than it is timing meals, skipping meals, and fasting for long periods. Fasting can actually send the system into a "storage" mode, while, per what you've stated, you want to optimize the "burning" behaviors/energy expenditure. Note to self: the body cannot be in storage mode and burning mode at the same time. What I like about this program is that while fat is released, the body is laying down additional muscle, on which to support glycogen stores for competition time. Add to these, cellular energy support supplements (goodies you can find at your local health supplements store or online), then not only should you see significant stamina benefits, you should also enjoy cardiovascular function benefits, hormonal, and immune support benefits. Best to you as you find your way. ~Dr. Amron at GreenHealthPDX.com

Medium avatar

(2417)

on November 08, 2012
at 09:19 AM

Is the program of which you speak detailed in your link? Rhetorical question; ill check it out. That said, IFing, skipping breakfast, and totally fasted training has make me more ripped, burned more fat, and stronger than I ever have been. Leangains works. Most adhearants agree upon waking the fasting body is a fat burning furnace, certainly not storing. My results concur. Paleo man woke up and hunted fasted precisely because he had no food! I do, per digestion, food combine. I eat my starches to completion, wait a bit, and eat my meat.

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