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Insulin, glycogen and ketone production

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created February 07, 2012 at 6:18 PM

Is the production of ketones determined by insulin levels or glycogen levels?

The implications for the latter are that you must have low glycogen to produce ketones.

For the former if you kept insulin levels low by replenishing glycogen with low glycemic index root vegetable eaten raw say and didn't cause much of an insulin release would that allow you to maintain a high level of fatty acid/ketone production while maintaining glycogen levels because you didn't spike insulin?

or is insulin higher with full muscle glycogen despite the insulin response to a meal thanks in advance for any answers i might receive just can't seem to find the information around anywhere on this specific distinction, Lucas Santos

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on February 09, 2012
at 02:00 PM

and insulin inhibits fat oxidation thererby reducing ketosis ?

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on February 09, 2012
at 01:49 PM

sidenote: if in fact it is not the ketones themselves which are curing my adhd and it is rather better blood sugar control then maybe 50-100g of paleo carbs per day would be ok so far it seems i have to be at ketogenic levels to be able to thrive in my school work my brain is just jolting with energy on low carb thanks for all the comments

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on February 09, 2012
at 01:47 PM

producing ketones actually is magical to me and thats why i asked this question. i have the choice of having a brain that functions properly and can focus without adhd, impulsivity distraction etcetera and this is a dramatic effect to say the least or good full replenished muscle glycogen. it seems i can't have both either i eat carbs have full glycogen sacrificing ketosis and proper brain function and thus school or go low carb produce ketones stabilize my brain lose muscle and get straight a's in university

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3 Answers

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0
Ccacf7567273244733bc991af4ac42ed

on February 07, 2012
at 07:06 PM

From what I understand, it may be better to maintain ketone production as a continuum. Producing ketones isn't anything special, but there's a long way between that and being fully adapted in ketosis. If you keep replenishing glycogen then what do you need the ketones for? The question would seem to be more about the extent to which your various tissues are accepting ketones, which depends on the direction you're coming from. If you're fully keto-adapted then you're not going to be burning as much glycogen (and you'll be refilling it naturally). It doesn't matter what the glycemic index is, you're not going to need any carbs to replenish glycogen. If however you're not in ketosis then your body is going to expect more carbs, and if you provide them then what reason does it have to go into ketosis? I guess that means it's a question of glycogen levels rather than insulin, but I don't think the question really captures the point.

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on February 09, 2012
at 01:47 PM

producing ketones actually is magical to me and thats why i asked this question. i have the choice of having a brain that functions properly and can focus without adhd, impulsivity distraction etcetera and this is a dramatic effect to say the least or good full replenished muscle glycogen. it seems i can't have both either i eat carbs have full glycogen sacrificing ketosis and proper brain function and thus school or go low carb produce ketones stabilize my brain lose muscle and get straight a's in university

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on February 09, 2012
at 01:49 PM

sidenote: if in fact it is not the ketones themselves which are curing my adhd and it is rather better blood sugar control then maybe 50-100g of paleo carbs per day would be ok so far it seems i have to be at ketogenic levels to be able to thrive in my school work my brain is just jolting with energy on low carb thanks for all the comments

1
24df4e0d0e7ce98963d4641fae1a60e5

on February 07, 2012
at 06:53 PM

I think ketone production is regulated by the levels of oxaloacetate in the Kreb's cycle. For the most part, w/o some degree of glycogen depletion, you aren't ketogenic. However, it is my understanding that medium chain triglycerides (like those found in coconut oil) are metabolized immediately by the liver and would likely force ketone production regardless of glycogen levels as acetyl CoA would be produced in excess and fairly rapidly.

0
5e36f73c3f95eb4ea13a009f4936449f

(8280)

on February 07, 2012
at 07:29 PM

Blood sugar and glycogen levels. Demand on liver glycogen comes when blood sugar goes low. Once liver glycogen is low/out, then it switches over to processing fat and converting proteins to glucose.

Insulin normally doesn't have anything to do with this. However, you do hear about bodybuilder types that end up vegetables or in the morgue after trying to use supra-normal Insulin doses to force ketosis faster. They're essentially using Insulin to clear sugar from the blood, forcing the liver to dump glycogen and start processing fats. When they miscalculate, they dump too much blood sugar and go into a diabetic coma, frying their brain or killing themselves.

Cf938ac46500e200c97f6adbb3365f64

(324)

on February 09, 2012
at 02:00 PM

and insulin inhibits fat oxidation thererby reducing ketosis ?

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