3

votes

Eating strict paleo how do i get approx 6000 cals/day?

Answered on August 19, 2014
Created November 14, 2010 at 8:24 PM

A question for anyone on these boards but if are a weightlifter or athlete i'd particularly appreciate the input.

I am 31 yrs old male, 6', 158 pounds, slim and lead an active but not overly athletic life. I eat clean, 100% paleo. No dairy, no grain, no legume. All meat and veg.

Two weeks ago i started Rippetoe's Starting Strength program with a personal trainer (who is from the oly lifting and crossfit world). I have never lifted weights seriously before. My goal is squarely to put on weight. I would like to see what it feels like to walk around at more like 180 or 190 pounds. At least for a while. It is a self experiment, but a serious one. I like the fact that at this point in my life i can control my body/hormones/metabolism to this extent. Obviously lean muscle weight is the real goal but i have heard a LOT that fat gain will prolly accompany me in this journey and im more or less reconciled to that (in a minimal way;).

Anyway, I keep hearing from people that with a strict paleo approach to living/eating i will not be able to get in the calories needed to succeed with the weight gain on the starting strength program.

I really want to keep all dairy and grains out of my life completely. Right now im still on just good meat, fat, and salad-y veg. So, im not taking in any starch (even though i have no problem per se with sweet potatoes, i just feel that up until this point in my time with this style of living i have not had a need for them). I'm currently managing to get around 3500, maybe 4000 cals per day with it all coming from meat, fat, and green veg. But im hearing from people, and reading, that ill need more in the 6000 cals/day range to make good progress.

So, i guess im just not sure how much more my digestion/stomach can handle with only meat, fat, and veg, to get to the 6k range. I feel like i might have to spend all day near a toilet or something. Is starch truly the key in sneaking those extra cals in?

D31a2a2d43191b15ca4a1c7ec7d03038

(4134)

on January 15, 2011
at 11:02 PM

Maddy, thank you very much for posting those recipes. His notes seem to attest to such dishes "triggering" appetite. I don't know the chemical explanations of those taste or food combinations, but it confirms my choice to eat very simply and plainly. Perhaps the combined tastes trigger more insulin response. This method of how to gain weight points to plain food being helpful on not gaining weight, to me. Best wishes to you.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on November 16, 2010
at 02:21 PM

To clarify further, I'm not hungry immediately after workout, it's several hours later, but always when I do get pw hunger its way more intense and able to pack in way more calories than if just an offday

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on November 16, 2010
at 02:20 PM

Correct, Meat and Fat are predominant , with butter/coconut oil/lard/tallow cooked veggies, and good amount of tubers post heavy workout. The veggies are minimal to be honest.

5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on November 16, 2010
at 03:05 AM

@maddy, thanks a heap for posting that link. I can see myself starting at the top and just eating to the bottom. Some excellent ideas.

5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on November 16, 2010
at 02:44 AM

Have you been peaking? I eat like that quite often. I also add a big slug of coconut oil to my coffee, yum.

5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on November 16, 2010
at 02:40 AM

I find if I have some hunger before training, (I always train fasted) afterwards it's gone for several hours at least.

5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on November 16, 2010
at 02:38 AM

Sounds delish..

5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on November 16, 2010
at 02:34 AM

@David, 100% agree with you, my findings exactly. I've been fat adapted for ~1yr and wouldn't change for anything! Love the limitless energy fat provides. I think the bottom line to muscle gain is HEAVY compound lifts and enough protein/BCAA not carbs. IMO

5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on November 16, 2010
at 02:21 AM

I'd take the sweet potato increase slowly if you are determined to do it. Personally I don't see the point in much carbs. Muscle is built from protein so I'd bang in the BCAA and not try for 6000 calories as an arbitrary figure. Who said YOU need 6000 anyway? Putting on lots of bodyfat isn't a requisite for gaining muscle and can be quite unhealthy. I assume you want to stay healthy and not just be the biggest mofo at any cost? I believe, like Martin Berkhan (Leangains) that hi BCAA 20-30g around training and eating lots of fat and moderate protein will lead to lean gains not fat gains.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on November 15, 2010
at 11:54 PM

dude. holy $hit. This is the jackpot. These are exactly the issues i been dealing with - like he says about the lamb and curry spinach, etc. I have to tap out too soon on those kinda meals. Wow, seriously, thanks a lot for the link.

1759614d2ac38131d8004c50da2d9899

(10)

on November 15, 2010
at 10:05 PM

Check this out: https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1gVRN-cUcwYtR-ZwFmYdmeeXSSeynmTL4eKDnnEcJ0Bk&pli=1 Reply to this comment so I know you checked it out, coz its pretty useful link!!!

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7314)

on November 15, 2010
at 08:33 PM

to clarify, that doesn't mean meat and tubers only, just that they're your main food right?

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on November 15, 2010
at 03:28 PM

@david: im with you. ive been VLC/keto for more than 1year. Fat-adapted. High energy all the time, love the lifestyle, etc. Believing that this lifestyle is a more healthful one is what makes me reluctant to add major source of carbs (starch) back in to my diet. I know i need cals, but i suppose i fear losing what i consider my excellent fat-for-fuel adaptation, that is something we have to train our bodies to do. I'm not too too concerned with adding body fat in this experiment. Not too much of course, but I monitor closely and im confident that I could always ketodiet and slim down later.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on November 15, 2010
at 03:22 PM

@stephen, i remember some posts of yours a while back that referenced your happiness with meat/tuber style. That, in fact, has been whats been on mind (combined with my trainer's advice) in the past couple weeks while i been mulling this over. thanks. CW - duh. You'd think i would've got that one by now.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on November 15, 2010
at 03:15 PM

maddy, thanks a bunch! this is the kinda advice im looking for. I know these boards are "paleohacks" but im really active on here so i figured id post and see what everyone said. and im feeling kinda alone in the weightlifting-meets-paleo world. I know theres ton of crossfitters, but im talking about putting on weight. NOT maintaining one's current weight, slimming down, getting cut, etc. I have done that, im there now, i can maintain no worries with standard paleo. Ive been doing that so long that i figured i'd try packing on some lbs and see how it feels.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on November 15, 2010
at 01:49 PM

Somethings broken or you're not exercising hard intensity. I always get hungrier post heavy workout- not immediate but hours later I can consume double normal meals. Loving how I feel and perform on meat/tubers

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on November 15, 2010
at 01:46 PM

CW is Conventional Wisdom. Assumed misinformation spread by the media

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on November 15, 2010
at 09:58 AM

Yes, a couple of tablespoons straight from the jar I carry in my car.

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on November 15, 2010
at 09:55 AM

@Ben, well while I'm for eating sweet potato (in my case 1 for ~40gcarb) to take the edge of ketosis, cortisol, spare some protein etc, I'm not exhorting you to add lots of sweet potato to allow you to increase calorie intake. If anything, my own case (where I gained more fat than muscle from increasing calorie/carbs) counts against the idea. If you add ~100g potato carbs post-workout, you'll only be adding 400 calories, but I imagine this will feel quite a bit different- to me it feels like my calories are being pushed into storage, whereas if I'm ketogenic I can eat fat by the tonne.

D738a5b2a67f3c36518a2ac9f32d27af

(821)

on November 15, 2010
at 04:57 AM

CW=Convential Wisdom

1759614d2ac38131d8004c50da2d9899

(10)

on November 15, 2010
at 04:21 AM

Great! Do you take coconut oil just like that?

10034c23f65addc5735eb02a32448223

(361)

on November 15, 2010
at 01:05 AM

that doesn't work for everybody, if I eat only when I am hungry I might lose like more than 4 lbs per week. Unless I stuff myself, I can't gain weight..

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on November 15, 2010
at 12:28 AM

yeah, seems like sweet pots are the answer. Starting tomorrow ill start them out. cheers for the input.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on November 15, 2010
at 12:27 AM

@david, thanks for the reply. I have been urged to go the sweet potato route by my trainer, too. And pretty much all on these boards saying the same. I simply have a reluctance to adding starch in my diet i suppose. Im going to go the sweet pot route for a month or so and see how it goes. Cheers.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on November 15, 2010
at 12:26 AM

from what im gathering it does indeed seem like just adding in the starch is where the key lies. Im just reluctant to is all. After years of living without starch I suppose im groping for a way to maintain that style of eating, but just upping my amounts. Ill try the sweet pot for a month or so and see. Thanks very much.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on November 15, 2010
at 12:22 AM

@stephen, whats CW? I have always eaten big. Before starting strength, too. Ive always consumed prolly upwards of 3000 cals/day just living my normal life. Thus my estimation, and thats all it is for sure, of something like 6k. Could be 4, 5k etc. Anyway, from what you wrote it looks like you do very well with the starch input then. That was a major element of my question i guess. Im just kind of reluctant to introduce whole new elements into my eating (like starch) rather than just upping the amounts of what im currently consuming yknow?

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on November 15, 2010
at 12:19 AM

nuts are a good goto i know. Not eating them currently becuase of the n6 load but the other day i did think i could do damage to a jar of almond butter, etc. The coconut milk tends to...run right through me. In quantities that would seriously aid my calorie search. COil i have no issues with, and indeed eat copiously.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on November 14, 2010
at 11:57 PM

I play Ultimate, do Swordfighting, Martial Arts, 5ks and alot of pushups and pullups

6426d61a13689f8f651164b10f121d64

(11488)

on November 14, 2010
at 10:29 PM

I agree with you that calories may not be the answer. Martin Berkhan, for example, emphasizes high protein intake (at least 2.5gm per kg of body weight) for simultaneous muscle gain and fat loss ( http://freetheanimal.com/2010/11/leangains-martin-berkhans-workout-approach.html ).

B4aa2df25a6bf17d22556667ff896170

(851)

on November 14, 2010
at 09:16 PM

dunno if you eat nuts, but if you do.. they are very calorically dense. Also coconut milk is good

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11 Answers

2
28734e347ced836300e21c41481e155d

on November 14, 2010
at 09:29 PM

From personal experience I can tell you It's pretty hard to consistently hit that daily calorie intake being Paleo & especially sans-dairy. I suggest you look for ways of drinking the calories you're trying to get down you - this is far easier than actually eating them.

If you're ok w/ eating some starches, get the sweet potato in after training.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on November 15, 2010
at 12:28 AM

yeah, seems like sweet pots are the answer. Starting tomorrow ill start them out. cheers for the input.

2
0dc1d63c3d5975f5115f535c6a90c9dd

(2283)

on November 14, 2010
at 08:53 PM

I believe even Robb Wolf is saying that starch is a good thing now. I'd say add in the sweet potatoes. Fyi, I am coming from a Crossfit background.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on November 15, 2010
at 12:26 AM

from what im gathering it does indeed seem like just adding in the starch is where the key lies. Im just reluctant to is all. After years of living without starch I suppose im groping for a way to maintain that style of eating, but just upping my amounts. Ill try the sweet pot for a month or so and see. Thanks very much.

5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on November 16, 2010
at 02:21 AM

I'd take the sweet potato increase slowly if you are determined to do it. Personally I don't see the point in much carbs. Muscle is built from protein so I'd bang in the BCAA and not try for 6000 calories as an arbitrary figure. Who said YOU need 6000 anyway? Putting on lots of bodyfat isn't a requisite for gaining muscle and can be quite unhealthy. I assume you want to stay healthy and not just be the biggest mofo at any cost? I believe, like Martin Berkhan (Leangains) that hi BCAA 20-30g around training and eating lots of fat and moderate protein will lead to lean gains not fat gains.

1
06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on November 15, 2010
at 03:23 AM

10 tablespoons of coconut oil = 1172 kcal.... 4 eggs fried = 349 kcal.... 24 oz cooked steak = 1713 kcal.... 16 oz cooked bacon = 2424 kcal.... Total = 5600 kcal.... From fitday.com

I really doubt you can down all that daily. I carry coconut oil with me during the day just in case I start feeling the need for food or am feeling a bit tired and need some energy. Much better than caffeine.

CW means conventional wisdom.

5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on November 16, 2010
at 02:44 AM

Have you been peaking? I eat like that quite often. I also add a big slug of coconut oil to my coffee, yum.

06d21b99c58283ce575e36c4ecd4a458

(9948)

on November 15, 2010
at 09:58 AM

Yes, a couple of tablespoons straight from the jar I carry in my car.

1759614d2ac38131d8004c50da2d9899

(10)

on November 15, 2010
at 04:21 AM

Great! Do you take coconut oil just like that?

1
4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

on November 14, 2010
at 11:56 PM

Tubers.

Meat.

I honestly doubt you need those kind of calories. 6k kcal for weight gain and I'm gonna gain some fat is CW mentality.

My body knows what it needs to recover. I eat TONs of meat/egg/fat and potatoes post workout.

I don't stuff myself like a bodybuilder. But I eat very heavy. If I'm still hungry I eat more. When I'm not hungry, I don't eat. Doesn't get much simpler than that.

No dairy, no grains.

20lbs of muscle gained with no CW bulking idiocy.

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on November 15, 2010
at 01:46 PM

CW is Conventional Wisdom. Assumed misinformation spread by the media

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on November 15, 2010
at 12:22 AM

@stephen, whats CW? I have always eaten big. Before starting strength, too. Ive always consumed prolly upwards of 3000 cals/day just living my normal life. Thus my estimation, and thats all it is for sure, of something like 6k. Could be 4, 5k etc. Anyway, from what you wrote it looks like you do very well with the starch input then. That was a major element of my question i guess. Im just kind of reluctant to introduce whole new elements into my eating (like starch) rather than just upping the amounts of what im currently consuming yknow?

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on November 14, 2010
at 11:57 PM

I play Ultimate, do Swordfighting, Martial Arts, 5ks and alot of pushups and pullups

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on November 15, 2010
at 03:22 PM

@stephen, i remember some posts of yours a while back that referenced your happiness with meat/tuber style. That, in fact, has been whats been on mind (combined with my trainer's advice) in the past couple weeks while i been mulling this over. thanks. CW - duh. You'd think i would've got that one by now.

D738a5b2a67f3c36518a2ac9f32d27af

(821)

on November 15, 2010
at 04:57 AM

CW=Convential Wisdom

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on November 15, 2010
at 01:49 PM

Somethings broken or you're not exercising hard intensity. I always get hungrier post heavy workout- not immediate but hours later I can consume double normal meals. Loving how I feel and perform on meat/tubers

10034c23f65addc5735eb02a32448223

(361)

on November 15, 2010
at 01:05 AM

that doesn't work for everybody, if I eat only when I am hungry I might lose like more than 4 lbs per week. Unless I stuff myself, I can't gain weight..

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on November 16, 2010
at 02:21 PM

To clarify further, I'm not hungry immediately after workout, it's several hours later, but always when I do get pw hunger its way more intense and able to pack in way more calories than if just an offday

Cab7e4ef73c5d7d7a77e1c3d7f5773a1

(7314)

on November 15, 2010
at 08:33 PM

to clarify, that doesn't mean meat and tubers only, just that they're your main food right?

4b97e3bb2ee4a9588783f5d56d687da1

(22923)

on November 16, 2010
at 02:20 PM

Correct, Meat and Fat are predominant , with butter/coconut oil/lard/tallow cooked veggies, and good amount of tubers post heavy workout. The veggies are minimal to be honest.

5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on November 16, 2010
at 02:40 AM

I find if I have some hunger before training, (I always train fasted) afterwards it's gone for several hours at least.

1
E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on November 14, 2010
at 08:58 PM

Perhaps it's because I've never tried to eat 6000 calories a day, but I'd have thought that eating extra calories of double cream would always be pretty easy. Perhaps your proscription of dairy rules that out though. Adding more fat to all the meat you cook shouldn't be that hard since there's pretty much no limit to how much fat you can sneak in. I'd eschew coconut though since it's anorectic.

If you're having difficulty eating enough, you might even want to cut back on your vegetables, particularly if you're eating them raw, since these will only serve to fill you up further. You'll just need to change the proportions of what you eat.

And fwiw I'm somewhat unsure that you would need 6000 calories. I weigh only slightly less than you (and this is after I already increased my own calorie intake to about 2800 after years of extreme hard-gainerliness) and do heavy weight-training and am pretty active otherwise. Increasing my own calorie intake (since the end of this summer) and adding ~40g of sweet potato carbs most days more recently has increased fat more than it's increased muscle. Notably, if you add fat from slim but muscular beginnings you will look a lot bigger and muscular (people always think that I look better after periods when I gain fat for whatever reason), but I wouldn't have thought that 6000 calories would actually be necessary for muscle growth given the very small amount of muscle that you can actually gain over a week.

5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on November 16, 2010
at 02:34 AM

@David, 100% agree with you, my findings exactly. I've been fat adapted for ~1yr and wouldn't change for anything! Love the limitless energy fat provides. I think the bottom line to muscle gain is HEAVY compound lifts and enough protein/BCAA not carbs. IMO

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on November 15, 2010
at 12:27 AM

@david, thanks for the reply. I have been urged to go the sweet potato route by my trainer, too. And pretty much all on these boards saying the same. I simply have a reluctance to adding starch in my diet i suppose. Im going to go the sweet pot route for a month or so and see how it goes. Cheers.

E35e3d76547b18096a59c90029e7e107

(15613)

on November 15, 2010
at 09:55 AM

@Ben, well while I'm for eating sweet potato (in my case 1 for ~40gcarb) to take the edge of ketosis, cortisol, spare some protein etc, I'm not exhorting you to add lots of sweet potato to allow you to increase calorie intake. If anything, my own case (where I gained more fat than muscle from increasing calorie/carbs) counts against the idea. If you add ~100g potato carbs post-workout, you'll only be adding 400 calories, but I imagine this will feel quite a bit different- to me it feels like my calories are being pushed into storage, whereas if I'm ketogenic I can eat fat by the tonne.

6426d61a13689f8f651164b10f121d64

(11488)

on November 14, 2010
at 10:29 PM

I agree with you that calories may not be the answer. Martin Berkhan, for example, emphasizes high protein intake (at least 2.5gm per kg of body weight) for simultaneous muscle gain and fat loss ( http://freetheanimal.com/2010/11/leangains-martin-berkhans-workout-approach.html ).

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on November 15, 2010
at 03:28 PM

@david: im with you. ive been VLC/keto for more than 1year. Fat-adapted. High energy all the time, love the lifestyle, etc. Believing that this lifestyle is a more healthful one is what makes me reluctant to add major source of carbs (starch) back in to my diet. I know i need cals, but i suppose i fear losing what i consider my excellent fat-for-fuel adaptation, that is something we have to train our bodies to do. I'm not too too concerned with adding body fat in this experiment. Not too much of course, but I monitor closely and im confident that I could always ketodiet and slim down later.

0
C4deaa6bb01626b4569e8992890381ab

on May 22, 2013
at 06:32 AM

Firstly eat a load of fatty meat & fish to take care of your protein needs, You say you are fat adapted? There is your answer, protein & carbs = 4 cals per gram, fat = a whopping 9 cals per gram!....just smother everything in coconut oil & butter, or just eat it straight off the spoon. I'm not a bodybuilder myself, I just think its a good healthy option as you will struggle to cram 6000 Cals of food down each day. Good luck.

0
8ce8b8fd33944e67dfd6277e7b671815

(327)

on May 22, 2013
at 05:20 AM

i actually used to do a fermented honey with japanese sweet potatoe all mixed together right after my workouts, you won't get fat and it's delicious

0
02ad9d13e01d539d4abf3be2dc7c87e7

on May 22, 2013
at 04:55 AM

Thanks for the recipes!

0
1759614d2ac38131d8004c50da2d9899

(10)

on November 15, 2010
at 04:27 AM

I have done SS before and I must say its a great program. You can definitely eat 6k calories, but increase the calories gradually. Also add/subtract calories based on how you are doing in the gym. Probably you can eat a bit higher than what you are eating now and if you are not able to add 10lb on squat every day then add more calories. Sorry this advice is totally non-paleo.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on November 15, 2010
at 11:54 PM

dude. holy $hit. This is the jackpot. These are exactly the issues i been dealing with - like he says about the lamb and curry spinach, etc. I have to tap out too soon on those kinda meals. Wow, seriously, thanks a lot for the link.

1759614d2ac38131d8004c50da2d9899

(10)

on November 15, 2010
at 10:05 PM

Check this out: https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1gVRN-cUcwYtR-ZwFmYdmeeXSSeynmTL4eKDnnEcJ0Bk&pli=1 Reply to this comment so I know you checked it out, coz its pretty useful link!!!

5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on November 16, 2010
at 03:05 AM

@maddy, thanks a heap for posting that link. I can see myself starting at the top and just eating to the bottom. Some excellent ideas.

667f6c030b0245d71d8ef50c72b097dc

(15976)

on November 15, 2010
at 03:15 PM

maddy, thanks a bunch! this is the kinda advice im looking for. I know these boards are "paleohacks" but im really active on here so i figured id post and see what everyone said. and im feeling kinda alone in the weightlifting-meets-paleo world. I know theres ton of crossfitters, but im talking about putting on weight. NOT maintaining one's current weight, slimming down, getting cut, etc. I have done that, im there now, i can maintain no worries with standard paleo. Ive been doing that so long that i figured i'd try packing on some lbs and see how it feels.

D31a2a2d43191b15ca4a1c7ec7d03038

(4134)

on January 15, 2011
at 11:02 PM

Maddy, thank you very much for posting those recipes. His notes seem to attest to such dishes "triggering" appetite. I don't know the chemical explanations of those taste or food combinations, but it confirms my choice to eat very simply and plainly. Perhaps the combined tastes trigger more insulin response. This method of how to gain weight points to plain food being helpful on not gaining weight, to me. Best wishes to you.

0
3020fb359dfbedaf90f1611b036d3432

(1138)

on November 15, 2010
at 12:49 AM

My regular daily meal in the evening is a stew in a pressure cooker which includes a hefty amount of grass-fed tallow that can, if necessary, reach very high calories just by throttling the fat amount upwards.

5de2fffda92c0bf2be7ede10cad55546

(1781)

on November 16, 2010
at 02:38 AM

Sounds delish..

0
0e4e5882872d6a7c472ea51aec457e66

(1994)

on November 14, 2010
at 09:03 PM

You could add to your diet a shake made from eggs, coconut milk and berries or other fruit. Add ice cubes if you like .That mixture tastes fine and is quick to prepare in a mixer.

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